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    BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

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    TR1
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:57 pm

    It's not really a mortar, it is a direct fire gun, just low velocity.

    100mm HEAT would not make much of an impression on an MBT.
    For whats its worth however the Arkan IS the BMP-3s HEAT replacement round.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:16 pm

    Arkan is an expensive ATGM not a HEAT round and it only carries 4 of them. Wouldnt it be good to have a cheaper backup AT weapon like a non giuded HEAT round just like the BMP-1 had?
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:41 am

    Are there any plans for the 100mm mortar on the BMD-4 and BMP-3 to have HEAT shells so if it runs out of ATGMS it still has AT capability?

    BMD-4s have little business engaging enemy tanks, and the 8 Arkan missiles it carries are most likely to be used against point targets like bunkers or firing positions.

    Remember airborne forces tend to attack targets deep in the enemies rear... there would be very few MBTs defending targets like airfields or comms centres.

    The BMD is a troop carrier, for enemy tanks they would use the Rakushka with a Kornet-EM launcher fitted out as a tank destroyer.

    As TR-1 mentions a 100mm HEAT round would not be that effective... especially as the 100mm gun is rifled and spinning HEAT rounds are not very effective.

    The 100mm gun is for delivering HE shells on point targets out to 6-7km which it is excellent at. It is not an anti armour weapon except in emergencies with guided missiles.

    Arkan is an expensive ATGM not a HEAT round and it only carries 4 of them.

    These missiles were expensive when they were introduced in the 1980s, but are not expensive now, and the BMP-3 carries 8 Arkans.

    Wouldnt it be good to have a cheaper backup AT weapon like a non giuded HEAT round just like the BMP-1 had?

    The BMP-1 needed a 73mm gun because the AT-3 missile it carried was ineffective at less than about 500m, so the 73mm gun was for use against tanks out to that range. (It could penetrate an M60 tank at any range it could hit it BTW).

    The problem resolved itself with western tank armour getting better and ATGMs getting more accurate with much shorter minimum engagement ranges.



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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:26 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    spinning HEAT rounds are not very effective.

    Huh!! So RPG-7 is not very effective?
    You have some explaining to do Twisted Evil
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:41 am

    RPG-7 rounds roll at a very slow rate compared to shells fired from a rifled barrel.

    The main stabilisation of an RPG-7 round is the very long tail fins that pop out after launch... the slow roll is to prevent it veering off in one direction if the fins are damaged or the propellent or warhead have settled to one side of the rocket.

    The influence of roll is obvious... a HEAT warhead is trying to create a concentrated beam of molten metal... if it is spinning at 2,000 revolutions a second then obviously that beam will be dispersed somewhat... and trying to push a needle through skin is easier than trying to push a low density 3cm thick rod.

    It is the primary reason MBT main guns are smoothbore... long thin penetrators like APFSDS rounds are too long and narrow to stabilise by spinning so they are stabilised with fins. Full calibre HEAT rounds could be stabilised by spinning, but that spinning would dramatically reduce the armour penetration of the round. The only two rounds that benefit from spinning are HE rounds and HESH rounds, which is why the 100mm gun of the BMP-3 is rifled because its primary round is a HE round while its missiles use a slip ring to allow the missile to travel down the barrel and form a seal to stop the propellent gas blowing past it but also without being made to spin by the rifling.

    The British Army clings to the rifled barrel because they still use the HESH round, though it would be ineffective against any vehicle with spaced armour except the very lightest ones.


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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:16 pm

    Sorry, I am not convinced.
    During the 50ies and 60ies all tank (except T-62) barrels were rifled... and they fired HEAT rounds.
    A HEAT round directs a tin high temperature jet beam towards the armour. The spinning of the round is unconsequencial IMHO. There will be no dispersment of the jet beam. Think of a aircraft jet engine, the jet exhaust will be straight even if you spin the engine around its axis.
    The move towards smoothbore was not because of the HEAT round, it was because you could get higher muzzle velocities through smoothbores.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:38 am

    During the 50ies and 60ies all tank (except T-62) barrels were rifled... and they fired HEAT rounds.

    They used slip rings, and even some very elaborate warheads fitted with ball bearings so the warhead was not spinning to prevent the HEAT warhead from spinning too fast.

    From wiki:

    HEAT warheads become much less effective if they are rapidly spinning, which became a challenge for weapon designers – for a long time, spinning the shell was the most standard method for obtaining good accuracy, as with any rifled gun. However, the centrifugal force of a spinning shell disperses the charge jet. Consequently, most hollow charge projectiles are fin-stabilized and not spin-stabilized.[4] The round could be fired from smoothbore barrel, losing some accuracy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_anti-tank_warhead

    The increase in muzzle velocity from a smoothbore barrel compared with a rifled barrel is not huge, the primary reason to change for the Soviets was because spin is bad for HEAT rounds and at the time HEAT was their primary tank round.

    APFSDS rounds can't be stabilised by spinning either because the longer and narrower an object is the fast it needs to be spun to properly stabilise it... which is why arrows and darts have fin stabilisation.


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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:46 am

    GarryB wrote:
    During the 50ies and 60ies all tank (except T-62) barrels were rifled... and they fired HEAT rounds.

    They used slip rings, and even some very elaborate warheads fitted with ball bearings so the warhead was not spinning to prevent the HEAT warhead from spinning too fast.

    .
    Why cant this be done for the BMP-3's 100mm gun?
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    During the 50ies and 60ies all tank (except T-62) barrels were rifled... and they fired HEAT rounds.

    They used slip rings, and even some very elaborate warheads fitted with ball bearings so the warhead was not spinning to prevent the HEAT warhead from spinning too fast.

    From wiki:

    HEAT warheads become much less effective if they are rapidly spinning, which became a challenge for weapon designers – for a long time, spinning the shell was the most standard method for obtaining good accuracy, as with any rifled gun. However, the centrifugal force of a spinning shell disperses the charge jet. Consequently, most hollow charge projectiles are fin-stabilized and not spin-stabilized.[4] The round could be fired from smoothbore barrel, losing some accuracy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_anti-tank_warhead

    The increase in muzzle velocity from a smoothbore barrel compared with a rifled barrel is not huge, the primary reason to change for the Soviets was because spin is bad for HEAT rounds and at the time HEAT was their primary tank round.

    APFSDS rounds can't be stabilised by spinning either because the longer and narrower an object is the fast it needs to be spun to properly stabilise it... which is why arrows and darts have fin stabilisation.

    Interesting. Thanks for clarification.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:21 am

    Why cant this be done for the BMP-3's 100mm gun?

    They do.

    The Arkan missile fired down the 100mm main gun of the BMP-3 has a HEAT warhead.

    The thing is that the primary use of the gun and its main ammo type is HE, so it makes sense to use a rifled gun and use slip rings for the odd missile it launches.


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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:02 pm

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130423/934101424.html

    Due to cost increase (1/3rd more per vehicle) due to production line moving to Kurganmash from the Volgograd factory, the number of BMD-4Ms bought this year is rumored to be dropped from 10 to 7.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:04 pm

    Maybe the rest they will get in the beginning of next year. What is more important is, that production start and that they come into units.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:38 am

    Another Shamanov interview on the latest BMD problems.

    http://twower.livejournal.com/1086241.html

    -Only 2 BMD-4Ms will be produced this year. The issue is Tula's inability to produce more than two combat modules for this year, which will be sent to Kurganmash for assembly on the hull. These vehicles will be tested @ Kubinka.
    -In September 2 Rakushkas will be handed over.
    -By Summer 2014 all 10 BMD-4Ms and 10 Rakushkas will be handed over.
    -Wants VDV to be 80% contract 20% conscript. Says this figure will be reached next year.

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:41 am

    How many BMD-4 and BMD-4M does the VDV have?
    We have seen some paraded at May 9 parades in the past.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:42 pm

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/2013/12/blog-post_2.html

    BMD production.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:31 pm

    http://warfiles.ru/show-43966-vdv-poluchili-boevye-mashiny-desanta-bmd-4m-dlya-voyskovyh-ispytaniy.html

    VDV received new BMD-4Ms for trials.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:25 am

    Some news finally.
    This year the Government Testing of the BMD-4M will be finished.
    They are happy with the vehicle, only minor complaints. The 106th Airborne Division will be re-armed first.
    KAMAZ is working on wheeled vehicles ordered by the VDV as well.

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  mutantsushi on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:57 am

    Do VDV units plan to use slat armor or APS? Is a specific APS system yet chosen for BMD-4M?
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:43 pm

    mutantsushi wrote:Do VDV units plan to use slat armor or APS?  Is a specific APS system yet chosen for BMD-4M?
    APS is necessary- slat armor is not ideal since its pretty heavy and only really works against RPGs- plus it limits mobiliity
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:55 pm

    They will probably use both slat armour and APS... APS is effective against a wider range of threats but slat armour can also disrupt full calibre armour piercing rounds and also in the field offers something to tie natural vegetation to on the vehicle.


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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  mutantsushi on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:24 am

    Yeah...
    FYI, by slat armor I was really meaning the broader category of offset defence vs. RPGs, etc,
    which would include lighter weight solutions like advanced fabrics as Qinetiq does (and I'm sure Russia could).
    It seems more reliable than APS only, and gives one more line of defence vs. saturation attacks.
    Do you feel that "Afghani" APS would be the choice for BMD-4M, or would lower end systems suffice?

    It seems like the VDV air-mobile units (as opposed to airbone)
    is where Kurganets will eventually be adopted by VDV, especially since the shorter deployment range
    makes it more likely they will be interacting with regular army units using those same platforms...

    VDV is supposed to receive Mi-26 correct?
    I think Mi-46 is going forward with Chinese support, interesting to see how it impacts VDV air mobile...
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:25 am

    It seems more reliable than APS only, and gives one more line of defence vs. saturation attacks.
    Do you feel that "Afghani" APS would be the choice for BMD-4M, or would lower end systems suffice?

    From the information I have seen there is only "Afghanistan" and "Standard" where Afghanistan is for heavy armoured vehicles (ie armata), while Standard can be used on lighter vehicles.

    It seems like the VDV air-mobile units (as opposed to airbone)
    is where Kurganets will eventually be adopted by VDV, especially since the shorter deployment range
    makes it more likely they will be interacting with regular army units using those same platforms...

    Would love to see the development of more powerful helicopters allowing heavier vehicles... or perhaps even the introduction of gliders to land heavier vehicles... even airships are a possiblity with modern materials and technologies.

    If they are going for modular designs then air dropping Kurganets with its base armour and then adding the heavy armour later when useful could also be an option too.

    VDV is supposed to receive Mi-26 correct?
    I think Mi-46 is going forward with Chinese support, interesting to see how it impacts VDV air mobile...

    I suspect An-70 is out of the question now, which will be good news for Mil.

    I was not a fan of the two engine tilt rotor design as it looks totally unbalanced, but a quad rotor actually appeals to me though it would be difficult to implement properly/effectively.


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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:25 pm

    Remember that fire, on that BMD-4M after the Moscow Parade?

    Just found out the cause! Nothing to do with engine, nothing to do with the crew.
    MOD modified the engine (to stop it from having a normal exhaust smoke when crossing the square) that caused some cracking in some piping, leaked fuel (of a special kind for the parade) that caused it to be ignited and burn.

    Case solved, and does not condemn the vehicle at all.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Remember that fire, on that BMD-4M after the Moscow Parade?

    Just found out the cause! Nothing to do with engine, nothing to do with the crew.
    MOD modified the engine (to stop it from having a normal exhaust smoke when crossing the square) that caused some cracking in some piping, leaked fuel (of a special kind for the parade) that caused it to be ignited and burn.

    Case solved, and does not condemn the vehicle at all.

    ...Ahhh yes, leave it to govt. officials to create a problem and then be reluctant to admit fault. Thankfully it wasn't a design flaw, now the real question remains whats the future for BMD-4 procurement? With the introduction of new mechanized army platforms coming in a few years, it should be noted that the MOD should have a back up plan if the new platforms turn out to be too expensive initially. I say they create a BMD-4 version (and one for the BMP-3) where add-on armor can be air-dropped separately a few hundred meters away from the IFV or towed with a trailer. The add-on armor should be designed to be easy and simple to apply to an IFV, like being able to attach the add-on armor by driving in forwards or backwards in to the armor with hooks on the interior of the add-on armor and hooks on the exterior of the IFV, perhaps even adding a conveyor belt system and additional anchoring systems to insure that the add-on armor is applied properly. Who knows, may'be a system like that can applied to T-72's and T-90's?

    Also with that being said I'm well aware the VDV wants IFV's that are light and mobile, amphibious as well as air-droppable, if the add-on armor can be designed right without any major design sacrifices or consequences then the MOD would be wise to keep their options open.

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  Vympel on Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:38 am

    TR1 wrote:Remember that fire, on that BMD-4M after the Moscow Parade?

    Just found out the cause! Nothing to do with engine, nothing to do with the crew.
    MOD modified the engine (to stop it from having a normal exhaust smoke when crossing the square) that caused some cracking in some piping, leaked fuel (of a special kind for the parade) that caused it to be ignited and burn.

    Case solved, and does not condemn the vehicle at all.

    Just for the record, it wasn't a BMD-4M, it was a standard BMD-4 (i.e. BMD-3 chassis upgraded with a Bakcha-U module, not the all new BMD-4M chassis, unified with a lot of BMP-3 components). If the BMD-4M existed back then, it was only as a single prototype.

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