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    BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

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    Vladimir79

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    BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:53 pm

    Russian paratroopers to receive new weaponry in near future


    The Russian Airborne Troops will receive a variety of advanced weaponry, including BMD-4M airborne infantry fighting vehicles (AIFV), in the next few years, the Airborne Troops commander said.

    "We are expecting to receive up to 200 BMD-4M AIFV in the next few years to significantly increase the combat capability of our troops," Lt. Gen. Vladimir Shamanov said.

    "Paratroopers will also get indigenous Shakhin infrared scopes, new sniper rifles, underwater assault rifles and other advanced weaponry and gear," the general said.

    The BMD-4M is the latest modification of an armored combat vehicle that can be para-dropped to provide firepower and support for airborne troops. It features a new chassis, a digital fire control system and a set of high-precision weaponry, including a 100-mm gun.

    The 13-ton vehicle has a crew of two and can carry six paratroopers.

    Shamanov said the Airborne Troops would eventually include units equipped with unmanned aerial vehicles, transport and combat helicopters to increase mobility and combat effectiveness of the troops on the battlefield.

    The Airborne Troops are considered the most capable mobile assault forces in Russia. Various estimates put the current personnel at about 48,000 troops deployed in four divisions and a brigade.

    According to Russia's military reform plans, the Airborne Troops will be fully manned with professional soldiers by 2011.

    MOSCOW, December 8 (RIA Novosti)
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    Russia

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  Russia on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:25 am

    Nice hey if its makeing the russian army stronger good! russia
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    milky_candy_sugar

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm

    They needed some renewal..,,finally I love you


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    medo

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:10 pm

    Any news about how many BMD-4 VDV receive till now and if they will receive any BMD-4M in 2011? There was talking about 200 new BMD-4M up to 2015, but now everything is quiet.

    I hope VDV recce units receive from Cyclone-jcs both thermal sights and portable thermal imagers.
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    TR1

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:01 pm

    The uparmored BMPD-4M we saw recently I think is reasonable and as good as compromise can get. I really hope they order more of them.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:20 pm

    TR1 wrote:The uparmored BMPD-4M we saw recently I think is reasonable and as good as compromise can get. I really hope they order more of them.

    You mean BMD-4M? What makes it so special?

    And there is an uparmoured version you say? What can it withstand?
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    TR1

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:24 pm

    http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w7_2010/0077_bmd4m.htm
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/4-rea-2011.html

    This sucker. Check out the huge photo collection, some nice armor additions without loss of desired mobility characteristics.

    I think it would be ideal as a light/mountain tank as well.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:54 am

    TR1 wrote:http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w7_2010/0077_bmd4m.htm
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/4-rea-2011.html

    This sucker. Check out the huge photo collection, some nice armor additions without loss of desired mobility characteristics.

    I think it would be ideal as a light/mountain tank as well.

    So what level of protection does it give? I would think about 12.7mm from a fair distance, right? If so, then add some cage armour to it and you got yourself a vehicle!

    Still don't know if the VDV will ride in it though. In any practical situation, it won't be just the RPG-7s they would have to worry about, but also newer AT weapons, and they would be in even more danger from mines and IEDs, correct me if I'm wrong but the BMD hulls just don't provide much protection against that sort of thing.

    So perhaps since all the other forces are getting new vehicles, the VDV can too; whether its a redesigned Kurganets or a seperate one altogether; perhaps a good mix would be something with decent anti-mine/IED resistance in addition to the same sort of armour as that BMD-4M you showed. I would imagine designing a vehicle from the start with a certain level of armour, would mean that it would be a little lighter and have less weak spots, than up-armouring an ill-armored vehicle later with add-on plates. Also, if a cheap active defense system existed it would be ideal, but it doesn't Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:17 am

    I would expect sides and rear to be 50 cal proof, with the front stopping 30mm cannon shells from 500m or so.

    The VDV will generally operate well behind enemy lines where the opposition will be fairly disorganised, and will try to deal with them from a distance using artillery or air power.

    People who claim the BMD is too weak to be effective should perhaps think about the range rovers the SAS used in the Desert in WWII, and the modern dune buggy type vehicles the western special forces use now that wouldn't even stop pistol ammo.

    For certain missions something lighter like the Typhoon light vehicle of the light brigades might be suitable as it will be designed to deal with IEDs and Mines... not that there is a vehicle on the planet that can withstand anything... it can certainly be resistant.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:36 pm

    All true but don't forget that the BMD is just as likely to be used on the frontlines too. The VDV is very mobile and thus very valuable, in a pinch they can be deployed to a hotzone via aerial redeployment or para-dropping (if no airfields are nearby) shortly before the action starts, or to discourage action altogether. In Georgia, they were right at the front AFAIK facing Georgian Armour and BMPs among other things.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:43 am

    Well I think if they plan to operate on front lines... like they also did in Afghanistan, they can swap their vehicles for heavier models as they wont be airdropped over a front line... that would just be suicide.

    In Afghanistan they often operated BMP-2s with extra armour fitted... apart from the uniforms the only real indication was the parachute emblem on their vehicles...

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    flamming_python

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:55 am

    GarryB wrote:Well I think if they plan to operate on front lines... like they also did in Afghanistan, they can swap their vehicles for heavier models as they wont be airdropped over a front line... that would just be suicide.

    In Afghanistan they often operated BMP-2s with extra armour fitted... apart from the uniforms the only real indication was the parachute emblem on their vehicles...


    I believe there was a discussion about this on mp.net some time ago; the gist of it was that para-dropping even behind enemy lines is very dangerous with the presence of modern anti-aircraft missile systems (although there are situations under which it can be performed). However, one of the major uses of the VDVs paradrop capability would be perhaps to rapidly reinforce and put some firepower into a remote location where there are no airfields nearby (and there are plenty such places in Russia), or where the airfields have already been destroyed by missiles.
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    GarryB

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    BMD-4M news

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:36 am

    I believe there was a discussion about this on mp.net some time ago; the gist of it was that para-dropping even behind enemy lines is very dangerous with the presence of modern anti-aircraft missile systems (although there are situations under which it can be performed).

    except the world is split into the haves and the havenots, and it is no great surprise that if Russia is fighting a Have they will likely be part of NATO and paratroopers will not be required... RS-24s will be.

    As shown in operations in Afghanistan in 1979 they are a mobile well equipped force that does not have to use parachutes, yet are trained to use them if need be. In Afghanistan they landed one aircraft at an airfield and used that aircraft to take control of the terminal building and land the rest of the airborne force.

    If that was not an option then they would have had the choice of parachuting in and then moving to the target, or pushing ground forces in via the border.

    In my view, if the landing at Kabul airport was not possible then simply landing forces in some open area nearby would not have resulted in the entire force being shot down. The force has far more mobility that its western equivalents like the 82 airborne who are not even fully motorised.

    The fact that they are motorised means they can be dropped 50-100km from the target and can drive to and engage the target rapidly. How many countries they are likely to send troops into will have air defence networks fully operational by the time they send in the paratroops?
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    TR1

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    BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 04, 2012 8:05 pm

    Now, suffice it to say I am not a big fan of General Shamanov, but this is interesting:

    http://twower.livejournal.com/792836.html

    Shamanov basically says the lack of BMD and BMP orders at the moment is terrible idea.
    In terms of VDV, he says they need BMD-4M and Rakushka.
    Says the vehicle has shortcomings, but is a good compromise given the requirements. Right now the BMD-4M is ideal, and the VDV will fight for it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 05, 2012 3:23 am

    AFAIK the logic is that an upgraded BMD-2 can have a high percentage of advantages and features of the BMD-4M at a fraction of the cost while a more permanent solution can be developed from the new vehicles families.

    There will be a navalised Kurganets-25, and I assume that a airborne version of This vehicle family plus the wheeled Boomerang-25 and Boomerang-10... the latter would be ideal for para dropping because of its low weight, while the heavier versions and the tracked Kurganets-25 could be used where paradropping is not necessary.

    In operations in Afghanistan during the 1980s VDV units often replaced their light BMDs with BMP-2s for the extra protection and better firepower and structural integrity. (The BMD-1s were so light that even rough driving tended to damage them... cracking hulls etc.
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    TR1

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 10, 2012 11:33 pm

    Very very interesting:

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120510/645801095.html
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/05/4.html

    Shamanov says BBMD-4m will become next vehicle for the VDV. It may enter service in 2016 in fully modernized form. The BMD-4M will be equipped with a new automatic tracking system, developed by Kurganmash for the new BMP. Along with this the armor of the vehicle is to be increased (the recently armored variant we recently saw?) .
    According to Shamanov, the deliveries of this new digitized BMD-4M can begin no earlier than 2016, and hence it is critical to begin deliveries of the BMP-4M in its current form. These vehicles can later be modernized in any case, says Shamanov.

    When asked, if the VDV can take the unified Kurganets-25 chassis, Shamanov replied negatively. He said the total unification of ground forces and VDV equipment is impossible to due to weight requirements.


    SO! I am very happy to hear this. Looks like the top dog of the VDV, does not want to wait for Kurganets, nor does he think it will fit the VDV. Really likes the BMD-4 apparently, and is willing to settle for it as soon as possible.
    COme on Putin, do something clever for once, listen to ur bud Shamanov and order ~60 BMD-4M per year.
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    TR1

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 10, 2012 11:34 pm

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu May 10, 2012 11:44 pm

    Don't worry Shamanov is Putin's man.
    As much as I like the firepower of the BMD-4, I think it should equip no more than half the VDV units. AFAIK there are 4 VDV divisions. Only 1 or 2 should have the BMD-4.
    VDV needs to be light, very mobile and easy on ligistics. I believe wheeled vehicles (like the VOLK) should make up the bulk of the airborne forces.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:29 am

    The BMD-4M is between the new 25 ton and the 10 ton vehicle families... closer to the 10 ton than the 25 ton.

    The fact that they want heavier armour suggests to me they are going to do what they did before.

    The BMD is basically a BMP heavily modified for air dropping and specialist use.

    As said above the Kurganets-25 and presumably the Boomerang-25 will be too heavy for air dropping, which rules them out, while the Boomerang-10 is probably too light... and it is likely they will want tracked vehicles for mobility for many uses anyway.

    For a very small batch I would think that actually making BMD-4Ms now that in 2016 can be fitted with the electronic suites of the Kurganets-25 family vehicles makes sense... the VDV has a separate logistics support train so the fact that it is not the same as the Armies vehicle wont actually matter that much as long as it is consistent within the VDV.

    They have been doing what the Army plans to do for quite some time except instead of using the new vehicle families being developed they are going to use the BMD-4M as the basis, so they will have a tank (Sprut) and an IFV (BMD-4M), a troop carrier (BTR-MDM), artillery (2S9M Nona), recon vehicles EW vehicles command vehicles etc etc.

    This means the force consists of the same basic vehicle with the same engines and the same transmissions/gearboxes/components etc etc so they use the same fuels and lubricants and spare parts and tools.

    Yes, I know I am flip flopping, but the idea of saving money by buying and upgrading BMD-2s till something new is ready only makes sense if they are planning to use a new vehicle being developed.

    If they plan to use an upgraded BMD-4M then it makes the most sense to simplify the current design to minimise cost... perhaps including modular add on armour made of expensive and exotic materials that is not fitted initially to reduce costs and simplified systems for now, and then in 2016 when a full upgrade package is ready you can start applying that to in service vehicles and producing new vehicles to match the new standard.

    It means you can start training for night and all weather and net centric combat with new sighting and navigation and battle management systems without spending too much now and then in 2016 when the new stuff is ready there will be more money in the budget to buy the new stuff when it is ready.
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    TR1

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 11, 2012 12:46 am

    I think they should abandon the BMD-2 upgrade program and put all of that towards BMD-4 procurement ASAP.
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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 1:03 am

    I think they should abandon the BMD-2 upgrade program and put all of that towards BMD-4 procurement ASAP.

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 7:33 am

    BMD-4M combat vehicle will be a forward-looking Airborne - General Shamanov
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120510/645801095.html

    MOSCOW, May 10 - RIA Novosti. Promising combat vehicle of the Airborne Troops (VDV) will be BMD-4M, which in 2016 could go in the series is already in a fully "digitized" version, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, the commander of Navy Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Vladimir Shamanov.

    Earlier, the Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces, Army General Nikolai Makarov, said that the Ministry of Defence refused to purchase airborne combat vehicle BMD-4 because of its high cost and "low-security soldier."

    "Today we can say that the forward-looking airborne combat vehicle will be an improved version of the BMD-4M. This machine will be equipped with an automated control system, developed by" Kurganmashzavod "for forward-looking infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs)," - said the shaman.

    He stressed that after the increase in BMD-4M bronezaschischennosti conducted at the request of industry, the Chief of General Staff, this machine is completely satisfied with Navy.

    According to the commander of the Navy, developed in Kurgan electronic filling will improve several key characteristics of BMD. For example, when driving on rough terrain vehicle will be much less wobble, which makes easier the work of the crew, aiming easier and increase the speed in these conditions from ten to 35 kilometers per hour. The new electronics will eliminate the possibility of hitting an obstacle and be able to maintain a given speed, and a new navigation system will plot a route for GLONASS Navigation anywhere in the world (today's navigation system BMD-4M only defines the coordinates of the machine and can fire, and the function of routing is not implemented yet).

    "Serial delivery date, a fully" digitized "BMD-4M may begin no earlier than 2016. Therefore, given that the basis for Navy fleet of armored vehicles converted amount of the BMD-1 BMD-2 armored, which is already 25-30 years old, you must as soon as possible to begin serial supplies to the troops BMD-4M in its current form, "- said Shaman.

    In his opinion, if you postpone upgrading troops for another four years, the combat potential of airborne drops, as introduced in the early 80-ies, BMD-2 not only has long worn out, but basically obsolete.

    "Add in the already delivered samples of additional electronics you can, and later - in the framework of modernization," - said the general.

    On the question whether Adopting a unified version of the airborne combat vehicle "Kurganets-25," Shaman said no. He stated that the total unification of technology and airborne infantry units is not possible because of the weight restrictions imposed on the necessity of airborne vehicles landing parachutes.

    "Create a single machine has tried unsuccessfully in 1970, since then nothing has changed, the issue remains unresolved. Due to weight restrictions armor infantry vehicles are always higher than ours, and promising BMPs will weigh over 25 tons, While BMD-4M combat pack and landing inside the machine weighs only 14 ", - said the agency interlocutor.

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 am

    So essentially they would buy the BMD-4M now and in 2016 a completely modernised BMD-4M will start entering service.
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    GarryB

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    BMD-4M combat vehicle will be a forward-looking Airborne - General Shamanov

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:14 pm

    So essentially they would buy the BMD-4M now and in 2016 a completely modernised BMD-4M will start entering service.

    Basically what they are saying is that the new BMP class version of the tracked medium brigade vehicle family (Kurganets_25) is too heavy to be used by the VDV, so they need their own custom designed vehicle and they think a further improved BMD-4M is the solution.

    For now they want the BMD-4M to be produced to replace obsolete existing vehicles, but by 2016 the new electronics being developed for the new Kurganets-25 family will be ready and can be retrofitted into the BMD-4Ms that will have been produced for the VDV. They will also upgrade the armour with new exotic types being developed for the new vehicles.
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    medo

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    Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

    Post  medo on Fri May 11, 2012 4:34 pm

    BMD-4M is needed for VDV units to replace old BMDs. For the kind of VDV operations, combat vehicle is better on tracks than wheeled and it must be carried by plane or helicopter, so 20+ tons is not in perspective for them. VDV and naval infantry fight different battles than ground forces armor brigades.

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