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    BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:53 pm

    Russian paratroopers to receive new weaponry in near future


    The Russian Airborne Troops will receive a variety of advanced weaponry, including BMD-4M airborne infantry fighting vehicles (AIFV), in the next few years, the Airborne Troops commander said.

    "We are expecting to receive up to 200 BMD-4M AIFV in the next few years to significantly increase the combat capability of our troops," Lt. Gen. Vladimir Shamanov said.

    "Paratroopers will also get indigenous Shakhin infrared scopes, new sniper rifles, underwater assault rifles and other advanced weaponry and gear," the general said.

    The BMD-4M is the latest modification of an armored combat vehicle that can be para-dropped to provide firepower and support for airborne troops. It features a new chassis, a digital fire control system and a set of high-precision weaponry, including a 100-mm gun.

    The 13-ton vehicle has a crew of two and can carry six paratroopers.

    Shamanov said the Airborne Troops would eventually include units equipped with unmanned aerial vehicles, transport and combat helicopters to increase mobility and combat effectiveness of the troops on the battlefield.

    The Airborne Troops are considered the most capable mobile assault forces in Russia. Various estimates put the current personnel at about 48,000 troops deployed in four divisions and a brigade.

    According to Russia's military reform plans, the Airborne Troops will be fully manned with professional soldiers by 2011.

    MOSCOW, December 8 (RIA Novosti)
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    Post  Russia on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:25 am

    Nice hey if its makeing the russian army stronger good! russia
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    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm

    They needed some renewal..,,finally I love you
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    Post  medo on Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:10 pm

    Any news about how many BMD-4 VDV receive till now and if they will receive any BMD-4M in 2011? There was talking about 200 new BMD-4M up to 2015, but now everything is quiet.

    I hope VDV recce units receive from Cyclone-jcs both thermal sights and portable thermal imagers.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:49 pm

    Nice Video on BMD-4

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    Post  medo on Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:36 pm

    Nice video of BMD-4. Anyone know, if BMD-4 is equipped with C4I data link? It have GPS/GLONASS navigation and 2 radios, 1 for voice and 1 could be for data.

    Are BMD-4 / BMD-4M still in production? For some time it's all quiet about them.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:39 am

    medo wrote:Nice video of BMD-4. Anyone know, if BMD-4 is equipped with C4I data link? It have GPS/GLONASS navigation and 2 radios, 1 for voice and 1 could be for data.

    Are BMD-4 / BMD-4M still in production? For some time it's all quiet about them.

    No, BMD-4 has no C4I datalink for BMS. There is limited data transfer on the radios but no display map. The GPS navigation doesn't even come with a map, it is digital coordinates. Russian drivers get so fed up with the BS they put Garmins on the fucking console. I wish I had those in my BTR.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:49 am

    BFM.ru says
    Postnikov put the Ground Troops’ modern arms and equipment at only 12
    percent of its inventory at present with, again, the goal of 70 percent
    in 2020. At the end of this year, the army will get its first brigade
    complement of the newest automated C2 (ASU) system [i.e. presumably YeSU
    TZ]:
    <blockquote>“In November of this year, we plan to conduct research on the newest ASU and hand down our verdict.”</blockquote>
    According to BFM.ru, he said NATO and China already have analogous systems:
    <blockquote>“But for us it is still the future.”
    Without a C2 system then a battle management system doesn't really make sense.Once they start putting C2 systems in vehicles however the other 2 Cs follow as a natural consequence as command and control require communications and of course computers are used to do this.Making small GLONASS receivers is just part of the problem, they need a full constellation of satellites, but most importantly they need accurate fine scale digital maps.The Bakhcha is actually just a turret upgrade that can be fitted as shown in the video to the BMP-2, BMP-3, BMD, and BTR chassis. It is not really intended to add moving map displays for the driver.I would expect the next gen stuff to enter service now will likely have that sort of thing... ie BTR-82 and T-90AM etc.
    </blockquote>
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    Post  medo on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:08 pm

    No, BMD-4 has no C4I datalink for BMS. There is limited data transfer on the radios but no display map. The GPS navigation doesn't even come with a map, it is digital coordinates. Russian drivers get so fed up with the BS they put Garmins on the fucking console. I wish I had those in my BTR.

    So BMD-4 don't have C4I datalink for now, but they have second radio and GPS/GLONASS navigation, what is necessary installation for C4I datalink. What they need is only a laptop to be connected on GPS and modem connected to second radio for radio data link with command post. Actually not that big upgrade to get C4I BMS.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:48 am

    The problem is not so much the vehicles... if you think in computer terms they already have radios for communication so in many ways they are like laptops with wireless connections... the problem is that they haven't decided on which network type they want to use and what software to pick to manage it all.

    Obviously it needs to be relatively soldier proof with a bit of training and it of course needs to do the job and be secure and have growth capacity.

    As assets are tied in to the network new features and requirements will come up.

    Right now the C2 is rubbish and is verbal.

    The Chinese really do have a better setup than the Russian Army in this regard.

    The point is that a few computers and high speed communications links will get their net down to vehicle level.

    The purpose of future combat suits like Felin is to extend that network down to the individual soldier so everyone shares information and resources and firepower can be used where needed when needed etc etc.

    Felin is expensive and will likely start equipping special forces only or a few elite units while cheaper simpler less capable Russian models have already been experimented with and improved a couple of times already. The good stuff that works from Felin will likely end up as part of the Russian kits and anything not working or not needed will be removed and hopefully more and more soldiers will be networked into the system.

    The Russians have bought some large scale training simulators from Germany that allow training of soldiers from individuals right up to entire brigades which should help with learning how to operate in a net centric force, and also improve interoperability with NATO.
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    Post  medo on Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:13 pm

    Hm, interesting. Russian army already have working C4ISR datalinks in air defense from the highest level to the firing units and as I know artillery units also are getting C4I datalinks. They could just modify it to work properly for ground troops. It is sad, that armor units will be the last to get it inside tanks, BMPs, BTRs,etc.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:08 am

    Indeed they do, and the PVO also had done a lot of work on datalinks.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:01 pm

    The uparmored BMPD-4M we saw recently I think is reasonable and as good as compromise can get. I really hope they order more of them.
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:20 pm

    TR1 wrote:The uparmored BMPD-4M we saw recently I think is reasonable and as good as compromise can get. I really hope they order more of them.

    You mean BMD-4M? What makes it so special?

    And there is an uparmoured version you say? What can it withstand?
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:24 pm

    http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w7_2010/0077_bmd4m.htm
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/4-rea-2011.html

    This sucker. Check out the huge photo collection, some nice armor additions without loss of desired mobility characteristics.

    I think it would be ideal as a light/mountain tank as well.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:54 am

    TR1 wrote:http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w7_2010/0077_bmd4m.htm
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/4-rea-2011.html

    This sucker. Check out the huge photo collection, some nice armor additions without loss of desired mobility characteristics.

    I think it would be ideal as a light/mountain tank as well.

    So what level of protection does it give? I would think about 12.7mm from a fair distance, right? If so, then add some cage armour to it and you got yourself a vehicle!

    Still don't know if the VDV will ride in it though. In any practical situation, it won't be just the RPG-7s they would have to worry about, but also newer AT weapons, and they would be in even more danger from mines and IEDs, correct me if I'm wrong but the BMD hulls just don't provide much protection against that sort of thing.

    So perhaps since all the other forces are getting new vehicles, the VDV can too; whether its a redesigned Kurganets or a seperate one altogether; perhaps a good mix would be something with decent anti-mine/IED resistance in addition to the same sort of armour as that BMD-4M you showed. I would imagine designing a vehicle from the start with a certain level of armour, would mean that it would be a little lighter and have less weak spots, than up-armouring an ill-armored vehicle later with add-on plates. Also, if a cheap active defense system existed it would be ideal, but it doesn't Smile
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:17 am

    I would expect sides and rear to be 50 cal proof, with the front stopping 30mm cannon shells from 500m or so.

    The VDV will generally operate well behind enemy lines where the opposition will be fairly disorganised, and will try to deal with them from a distance using artillery or air power.

    People who claim the BMD is too weak to be effective should perhaps think about the range rovers the SAS used in the Desert in WWII, and the modern dune buggy type vehicles the western special forces use now that wouldn't even stop pistol ammo.

    For certain missions something lighter like the Typhoon light vehicle of the light brigades might be suitable as it will be designed to deal with IEDs and Mines... not that there is a vehicle on the planet that can withstand anything... it can certainly be resistant.
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:36 pm

    All true but don't forget that the BMD is just as likely to be used on the frontlines too. The VDV is very mobile and thus very valuable, in a pinch they can be deployed to a hotzone via aerial redeployment or para-dropping (if no airfields are nearby) shortly before the action starts, or to discourage action altogether. In Georgia, they were right at the front AFAIK facing Georgian Armour and BMPs among other things.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:43 am

    Well I think if they plan to operate on front lines... like they also did in Afghanistan, they can swap their vehicles for heavier models as they wont be airdropped over a front line... that would just be suicide.

    In Afghanistan they often operated BMP-2s with extra armour fitted... apart from the uniforms the only real indication was the parachute emblem on their vehicles...

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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:55 am

    GarryB wrote:Well I think if they plan to operate on front lines... like they also did in Afghanistan, they can swap their vehicles for heavier models as they wont be airdropped over a front line... that would just be suicide.

    In Afghanistan they often operated BMP-2s with extra armour fitted... apart from the uniforms the only real indication was the parachute emblem on their vehicles...


    I believe there was a discussion about this on mp.net some time ago; the gist of it was that para-dropping even behind enemy lines is very dangerous with the presence of modern anti-aircraft missile systems (although there are situations under which it can be performed). However, one of the major uses of the VDVs paradrop capability would be perhaps to rapidly reinforce and put some firepower into a remote location where there are no airfields nearby (and there are plenty such places in Russia), or where the airfields have already been destroyed by missiles.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:36 am

    I believe there was a discussion about this on mp.net some time ago; the gist of it was that para-dropping even behind enemy lines is very dangerous with the presence of modern anti-aircraft missile systems (although there are situations under which it can be performed).

    except the world is split into the haves and the havenots, and it is no great surprise that if Russia is fighting a Have they will likely be part of NATO and paratroopers will not be required... RS-24s will be.

    As shown in operations in Afghanistan in 1979 they are a mobile well equipped force that does not have to use parachutes, yet are trained to use them if need be. In Afghanistan they landed one aircraft at an airfield and used that aircraft to take control of the terminal building and land the rest of the airborne force.

    If that was not an option then they would have had the choice of parachuting in and then moving to the target, or pushing ground forces in via the border.

    In my view, if the landing at Kabul airport was not possible then simply landing forces in some open area nearby would not have resulted in the entire force being shot down. The force has far more mobility that its western equivalents like the 82 airborne who are not even fully motorised.

    The fact that they are motorised means they can be dropped 50-100km from the target and can drive to and engage the target rapidly. How many countries they are likely to send troops into will have air defence networks fully operational by the time they send in the paratroops?
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    Post  TR1 on Fri May 04, 2012 8:05 pm

    Now, suffice it to say I am not a big fan of General Shamanov, but this is interesting:

    http://twower.livejournal.com/792836.html

    Shamanov basically says the lack of BMD and BMP orders at the moment is terrible idea.
    In terms of VDV, he says they need BMD-4M and Rakushka.
    Says the vehicle has shortcomings, but is a good compromise given the requirements. Right now the BMD-4M is ideal, and the VDV will fight for it.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 05, 2012 3:23 am

    AFAIK the logic is that an upgraded BMD-2 can have a high percentage of advantages and features of the BMD-4M at a fraction of the cost while a more permanent solution can be developed from the new vehicles families.

    There will be a navalised Kurganets-25, and I assume that a airborne version of This vehicle family plus the wheeled Boomerang-25 and Boomerang-10... the latter would be ideal for para dropping because of its low weight, while the heavier versions and the tracked Kurganets-25 could be used where paradropping is not necessary.

    In operations in Afghanistan during the 1980s VDV units often replaced their light BMDs with BMP-2s for the extra protection and better firepower and structural integrity. (The BMD-1s were so light that even rough driving tended to damage them... cracking hulls etc.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu May 10, 2012 11:33 pm

    Very very interesting:

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120510/645801095.html
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/05/4.html

    Shamanov says BBMD-4m will become next vehicle for the VDV. It may enter service in 2016 in fully modernized form. The BMD-4M will be equipped with a new automatic tracking system, developed by Kurganmash for the new BMP. Along with this the armor of the vehicle is to be increased (the recently armored variant we recently saw?) .
    According to Shamanov, the deliveries of this new digitized BMD-4M can begin no earlier than 2016, and hence it is critical to begin deliveries of the BMP-4M in its current form. These vehicles can later be modernized in any case, says Shamanov.

    When asked, if the VDV can take the unified Kurganets-25 chassis, Shamanov replied negatively. He said the total unification of ground forces and VDV equipment is impossible to due to weight requirements.


    SO! I am very happy to hear this. Looks like the top dog of the VDV, does not want to wait for Kurganets, nor does he think it will fit the VDV. Really likes the BMD-4 apparently, and is willing to settle for it as soon as possible.
    COme on Putin, do something clever for once, listen to ur bud Shamanov and order ~60 BMD-4M per year.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu May 10, 2012 11:34 pm

    And some pics:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nkTSuS3Mcqw/T6v5W3I59HI/AAAAAAAADKQ/wrVuf_d462g/s1600/IMG_0014.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yb_uxd0Zs8Q/T6v5WqhPobI/AAAAAAAADKU/sBRSGAeOLcc/s1600/IMG_8543.jpg


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