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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    hoom
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat May 07, 2016 9:30 am

    First post after intro for a lurker:
    I don't really get the large amount of criticism of this class.
    After the Subs & in the absence of significant numbers of 11356/22350 coming online (for various reasons) I think 22800 Karakut is the most important navy project.
    Russia needs lots of UKSK tubes in the water & hulls to replace legacy ships going offline ASAP (Karakut does use Russian made engines right?)

    Yes they could just build more Buyan-M but A: they are (and its important not to disrupt that successful production line at least until Karakut is proven to be able to get in service quickly)
    B: Buyan-M is shoehorning the Calibre/UKSK capability into a ship not really designed for it & not designed for any kind of exposed seas while Karakurt is designed for both. (Buyan-Ms deploying to Syria while impressive I think is more of a desperation move due to absence of anything much else to send)

    With the very specific physical circumstances of Russia I think it makes sense to build a lot of fairly small missile boats.
    6 each for the Black, Baltic & North fleets is not that great but the ability to relocate them via the river/canal system opens the possibility to fairly quickly concentrate up to 144 UKSK tubes in any of those seas (Caspian too).
    Side question: I'm pretty sure Karakut can use Black-Caspian-Baltic route no problems but not sure it can traverse to White sea? (though they seem to be able to get much bigger subs there from Nizhny Novgorod)

    Also there has been criticism of weak AA and thats certainly true of the initial version with only 2*AK-630s but if/once the expected Naval Pantsir shows up (though why not use Palash now?) they will probably have the best AA of any ship up to the 20380s & possibly much bigger excluding that class.

    I've seen it suggested on other forums that there should be a dedicated AA version & I think that there is possibility there: replace the UKSK with Redut, give it Furke or better (I think its actually getting the same new Zaslon AESA as 20385 already?) & you have a pretty impressive AA ability (even if Redut on 20380 isn't considered great), with Redut being smaller & lighter maybe even remove the main gun & add at least another 8 Redut tubes.
    Obviously this would be useless for other tasks but I see it as maybe 1 in 6 providing an AA umbrella for the squadron in absence of 11356/22350s.
    I had at first thought give it Fregat/Shtil-1 for 'availabile now' factor but if Furke/Redut is actually working OK(ish) for 20380 then that is probably the better course.

    Similarly I think rather than a separate class for antisub (the concepts I've seen look more superyacht than actual practical naval ship) a modification of Karakut seems like a better idea.
    Though I'm not sure quite how that would work, proper antisub would be really hard to fit into 800ton.
    Maybe remove gun & AA, add hull sonar & Packet?
    Without removing the UKSK you'd have a hard time finding enough weight/volume for a more significant antisub setup but removing the UKSK removes that long range antisub Calibre.
    Assuming a 6 ship squadron you would be able to use the UKSKs of the rest of the squadron for carrying the antisub Calibres but that would eat into their main antisurface mission even more.

    But if we assume that there will be some form of larger ship available to provide AA cover/Antisub sensors a 6 ship squadron of basic Karakut working with it can provide significant extra firepower.

    In summary: I hope Russia will be able to actually get decent numbers of these in service quickly.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 07, 2016 4:27 pm


    Well I don't think there is that much criticism, these are good boats.

    You made good observation, Buyans are river boats with UKSK launchers added as an upgrade. Karakurts are same class of ships but they are built from ground up around UKSK and can operate in oceans unlike Buyans. That is why Caspian and Black Sea fleets will be getting more Buyans while Ocean fleets will be getting Karakurts.

    You might be on to something with replacing main gun with Redut launchers. It could be good idea to build that version as a support platform. That way they would preserve cruise missile ability.

    Making anti sub version would only require adding sonar because UKSK launchers can fire torpedoes. Actually torpedo carried by cruise missile with 40 km range. So this version is even more probable.

    Planned successor to Buyan (Project Sarsar) is suppose to come in four versions: anti ship, anti ship light, anti sub and patrol version.

    Best thing about Karakurts is that they are built in shipyards that were not building warships before or for a very long time (Pella, Crimea) so they do not take up existing construction capacities. And I assume that there might be other civilian shipyards out there that could also start building these ships.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 08, 2016 1:07 pm

    and if it is too far from other ships...II WW class torpedo can put it down. NATO has advantage in number of subs against Russia not to mention robotic sub-drones...

    And what will a western frigate do when faced with a torpedo attack?

    Russia has the advantage of lots of sonar arrays in its territorial waters and with the addition of the ship board helo with dipping sonar I would think it was NATOs subs that should be worried by this little corvette able to carry mach 2.5 40km range rockets that deliver an anti sub torpedo right above them with no warning...

    ASROC torpedo cannot defent you as Paket can in self defence mode. This is my point,

    The Soviets and Russians have done extensive work on super cavitating rounds... they have underwater small arms in service and so a 30mm version should not be totally impossible.

    Equally decoys can be deployed and who knows what sort of underwater robots they might have of their own...

    In summary: I hope Russia will be able to actually get decent numbers of these in service quickly.

    Your suggestions are interesting, but I think a better option is to make each corvette the same as the others in the same class and when subs are a threat include a Destroyer with the group of corvettes to find subs and pass data to the corvettes so they can use their anti sub missiles from their UKSK tubes all the while enjoying the air protection of the destroyer.

    For anti smuggling/drug related/illegal fishing roles corvettes can operate on their own and would find their gun armament the most useful, so don't remove flexible useful weapons for the once in a lifetime chance of WWIII. These vessels will spend 99% of their time not using their most capable weapons... I don't think situations in Syria are going to be common for Russia.



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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 10, 2016 6:35 pm


    ''Small missile ship ''Storm'' layed down in Feodosia''

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/77465/










    One more, Crimea s officially back in business. thumbsup

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed May 11, 2016 4:27 am

    Apparently the Pella shipyard building the first 2 is/will be heavily involved in the Crimea shipyard which explains a bit.

    Still the same rendering/profile with the AK-630s & no Monolith radar in the profile.
    Is it actually confirmed anywhere that the naval Pantsir will be on later models? (or when its going to show up at all?)

    I think a better option is to make each corvette the same as the others in the same class and when subs are a threat include a Destroyer with the group of corvettes
    Well sure, but the point was that there is a big absence of new Frigates/Destroyers coming online & specialised versions could be a way to partially make up for that absence.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 11, 2016 12:22 pm

    Specialised ships was the Soviet Navys past.

    The future is multirole ships in modular form.

    Specialised ships like Sovremmeny or Udaloy means you need to accurately determine the threat and build the number you will need... if you are wrong there is a problem.

    So building 10 Sovs and 10 Udaloys means you have 10 anti ship ships with good area SAMs and 10 anti sub ships with close in SAMs for self protection only.

    New vessels will have UKSK launchers so can perform anti sub or anti ship or land attack roles depending upon which weapons are loaded in port... so instead of 20 ships you can probably get away with 15 and just arm them for the roles they are needed for.

    All ships will need decent radar and decent sonar so they will be more expensive, but also more capable and flexible... and the higher cost can be countered by the fact that instead of making 10 of each type you are making 15. Logistically that means every port and base just needs to support one type of ship and its sensors and weapons... the old way you had stocks of Moskit for the Sovs, and stocks of Vulkan for Slava class and Granit for Oscar class subs and Kirov class cruisers... now they can just carry Onyx till Zircon (Tsirkon) is ready...

    In the case of some of the corvettes their self defence can look a little weak... but remember these vessels with Gibka is not really a guy on the deck with an Igla... with radar and EO sensors directing the Gibka turret it should actually be quite a capable CIWS... remember SEA RAM, the US CIWS is just a mix of Stinger and Hellfire components, so its seeker would be inferior to even Igla, let alone Igla-S or Verba.

    Equally in a few years Morfei will be ready and offer fire and forget lock on after launch IIR short range missile for self defence.


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 12, 2016 1:15 pm


    Russian Navy plans to purchase many Project 22800 small missile ships

    The Navy may change the supplier of the missile ships


    http://tass.ru/en/defense/874742

    KAZAN, May 10. /TASS/. The Russian Navy may place an order for Project 22800 small missile ships with the United Ship-Building Corporation, Head of the Navy’s Ship-Building Department Captain 1st Rank Vladimir Tryapichnikov said on Tuesday.

    "The ships may be constructed by an enterprise of the United Ship-Building Corporation but a final decision has not been made yet," Tryapichnikov said.

    According to him, there are plans to build a big number of Project 22800 ships.

    The first two Project 22800 ships were laid down at the Pella Shipyard in the Leningrad Region in northwest Russia in December 2015.

    Another Project 22800 vessel was laid down at the Morye Shipyard in Feodosia in Crimea.

    The two enterprises do not make part of the United Ship-Building Corporation.

    The first two Project 22800 ships, the Uragan and Typhoon, are planned to join the Russian Navy in 2017 and 2018.

    hoom
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed May 18, 2016 3:33 am

    More shipyards building simultaneously the better.
    Its a small/simple enough project there shouldn't be too much in the way of late revisions needed.
    If one yard winds up getting them out quicker than another, they can get more orders.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:36 pm

    4th 22800 Shkvall laid down. 3rd at Pella.
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160729/1473164289.html (Yandex translate)
    "This is a purely Russian invention. Ships with the same displacement, with such weapons, almost in the world, no one. He has eight missile complexes "Caliber", which, as you know, proved itself in the Syrian operations. Soon he will have to adopt new anti-missile system, we will have adapted "Armor", — said at the groundbreaking ceremony, Deputy defense Minister Yuri Borisov.
    Confirmation of all domestic components & Naval Pantsir for the class  bounce


    Via Balancers
    Nameplate (same as the others)

    Is it me or are some of those plates pretty wonky (though I understand a certain amount is normal & unavoidable)

    Progress on 1st (& 2nd in the background?)

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:17 pm

    This was unexpected. thumbsup

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:22 pm

    Navy Pantsir? Awesome! this will make it have powerful air defense between Shtil-1 and the Gibka.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:43 am

    Looks like there has been a bow shape change since the renders?

    Renders show a raked planing type bow profile but this is looking like a vertical displacement type profile instead?
    I'd have expected the planing type to look more like the yellow line but it looks like only something like the blue line can be there

    I'm hoping some more pics from different angle show up.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:53 am

    This was unexpected. thumbsup
    Then how about this https://www.facebook.com/vpkrossii/photos/a.592606684114432.1073741826.592503517458082/1157873800921048/?type=3&theater
    Tomorrow on the Kerch factory "Bay" will be laid MRK pr.22800
    Shocked dunno how reliable that source is dunno

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:50 pm


    @hoom

    Nice. They are really hitting pace with this class and best of all they are built in these shipyards that were not building warships before now.

    This frees up other shipyards to focus on building larger vessels, Zelenodolsk in particular after they finish Buyan-M series.


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:13 am

    hoom wrote:Looks like there has been a bow shape change since the renders?

    Renders show a raked planing type bow profile but this is looking like a vertical displacement type profile instead?
    I'd have expected the planing type to look more like the yellow line but it looks like only something like the blue line can be there

    I'm hoping some more pics from different angle show up.

    I think that graphic artist who made that poster took some creative liberties to make it look sleeker.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:30 pm

    Zelenodolsk plant was awarded the contract for five small missile ships of the 22800 project

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2050868.html


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:26 am

    George1 wrote:Zelenodolsk plant was awarded the contract for five small missile ships of the 22800 project

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2050868.html

    Interesting news. It turned out that Almaz shipyard was also competing for this contract but it went to Zelenodolsk because Yuri Borisov dislikes USC probably due to delays and cost overruns.

    Gotta say, I do agree with this approach. No reason to reward slackers and parasites with new contracts. They should either stick with large ships (the reason for their existence) or just close shop and let others handle the projects.

    Both Pella and Zelenodolsk are private companies.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:18 am

    This is good, Zelenodolsk has a solid record for quick completion & more shipyards building the better thumbsup
    Seems the 2nd at Kerch hasn't eventuated dunno

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:30 am

    hoom wrote:This is good, Zelenodolsk has a solid record for quick completion & more shipyards building the better thumbsup
    Seems the 2nd at Kerch hasn't eventuated dunno

    AFAIK Kerch is still in the process of rebuilding and modernization of the shipyard, so for now their capabilities are still limited.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:11 am

    Found a new angle on the bow in 2nd half of this

    Definitely the raked bow


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:11 pm

    Interesting construction method where they don't seem to knock out the openings for the bridge windows before assembly on the ship but later.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:19 pm

    Project 22800E KARAKURT model displayed at Armya-2016 exhibition:
    Note that this version has the E suffix which makes it an export model.
    Differences between domestic and export models are not known yet.





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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:08 am

    More photos of the Model plus other information. Sounds like 12 confirmed orders so far.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2110888.html

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:05 am

    Sweet Smile
    Also more pics at http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2110888.html









    Spec sheets show 3 variants


    I'd say Ver 3 is pitched at India with OTO Melara 76mm & Brahmos.
    Ver 2 seems closest to at least the initial domestic batch, though that is quoted with M70 turbine...

    Not sure where the Mineral radar is supposed to go?
    Pozitiv would be in the dome & the Front Dome is blocking it from being in the mast (though the specs don't seem to include Front Dome...) unless they don't mind restricted coverage via the radar panels on the cheeks of the mast?

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:29 am

    Shipyards have orders for 12 ships to date, expecting an order for another 7 by years end.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2114483.html

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