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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:51 pm

    miroslav wrote:
    Hole wrote:When i see the empty space between the AK630´s i think that they could have easily fit a Redut system into it.

    You cant just put stuff because there seams to be enough room on the surface. On the third ship, the Pantsir-M system needed to raised on an additional platform because of the missiles in the hull itself.

    The missiles alone for the Pantnsir are 3.2m long, not counting the mounts and other machinery that holds them, the length of the 9M96E missiles is 4.75 m, that's a lot higher than the back of the structure where the AK-630 are placed, at least by another 1.5 m.

    I think there are a lot of tactical and financial reasons why building a small ship with sophisticated long range AD is not a good idea event if it can be technically done, things like: survivability, range/endurance, seaworthiness.

    Generally, if you want a ship that can effectively deal with all 3 main types of threats, surface, sub-suface and air, you need at least a large corvette/small frigate, 105m in length minimum, which is exactly what you can see in practical examples of ships.

    I mean use Redut from the beginning. Instead of Pantsir. Raise the deck accordingly. Or use the small missile (9M100). 48 missiles instead of 32.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:16 pm

    Redut would take up much more room then a Panster, you cannot just put everything under the sun on a ship that small, you gotta make compromises and I mean a ship having Panster M with all the other stuff it has is fine.

    These aren't DD's.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:52 am

    Boop

    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Tingsay on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:07 am

    What aesa radars are Karakurts using?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:43 am

    Thats the question many have been wondering.
    I thought it was part of the Zaslon system on first 2 but now I think its actually just radar transparent panel with a Mineral or similar OTH radar in the mast kinda like 20380.

    chicken

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  chicken on Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:57 am

    Tingsay wrote:What aesa radars are Karakurts using?

    I believe the panels are for the Pantsir radar mount on the 3rd vessels+. The 2 probably has nothing inside of it.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:17 pm

    Oh yeah forgot to say the 3rd+

    Appears to be 4* the SOTS radar from Pantsir-S2

    This was apparently a concept/test mast


    I think probably a Mineral or similar in the bigger dome. (first 2 seem to have Positiv dome)
    But there is also this concept of the 2-sided radar straight from Pantsir-S2 in a dome thats got very similar proportions

    But why would they have 2 rotating & 4 fixed but no OTH radar, makes more sense to be Mineral in the dome.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:02 pm

    First two will propably have a air search radar under the dome, the two panels could be for surface search (anti-ship).
    From the third air search ist done by the four radar panels around the mast and sea search by a radar under the dome, like on Nanuchka and Tarantul.
    The optics seem to be for the guns, the one on top of the bridge for the 76,2mm gun, the two behind the mast for the AK-630´s.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:48 am


    Smokey start Shocked

    There is also this of different class with similar, older engine, apparently taken from similar place & shortly before.


    At speed on lake Ladoga
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:31 pm

    Huge praise to you, hoom. Always there with some good pics.

    The russian Navy should develop a ASW version of the Karakurt. A towed sonar array and some torpedo tubes should do it.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:58 am

    Embarassed Props should go to the ppl at Balancer forum that post them respekt
    I just have an excessive amount of time to look for them unshaven

    Edit: While I quite like the idea of making ASW/AA specialist versions of 22800 as part of a really big 22800 build so that squadrons of 22800 could contain some specialists to create a full distributed capability it seems like Russia isn't going for that & probably 800ton is really too small for a proper specialisation.
    I think Project 12700 or 22160 would probably be a better basis for a proper ASW specialist class.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:59 am

    Grishas are comparable in size. Pauks are smaller.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:52 am

    Yeah just realised that was a brain fart  Embarassed  I always seem to think of Grishas as more like 1500ton for some reason & I was thinking 12700 are similar size  dunno  
    12700, 22800 & Grisha are about same size.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:14 am

    More angel






    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Tingsay on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:09 am

    Heavily armed cute ships Twisted Evil

    Karakurts (with Buyan-Ms) will replace all Nanuchkas, Tarantuls, Parchims and Boras 1 for 1, correct? I sure fucking hope so, seeing as how larger classes aren't remotely keeping up to pace.

    marat

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  marat on Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:24 am

    Tingsay wrote:Heavily armed cute ships Twisted Evil

    Karakurts (with Buyan-Ms) will replace all Nanuchkas, Tarantuls, Parchims and Boras 1 for 1, correct? I sure fucking hope so, seeing as how larger classes aren't remotely keeping up to pace.
    Neither Karakut nor Buyan can replace Parchim. Russia still lack light AWS corvette for replacing Grisha and Parchim class

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:14 am

    The announced plan is 18 which is fairly far short of 1:1.
    12 Buyan-Ms as well help out.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:07 pm

    Tingsay wrote:Heavily armed cute ships Twisted Evil

    Karakurts (with Buyan-Ms) will replace all Nanuchkas, Tarantuls, Parchims and Boras 1 for 1, correct? I sure fucking hope so, seeing as how larger classes aren't remotely keeping up to pace.

    Parchims are ASW corvettes with torpedos, depth charges and RGU anti-sub rockets.  Karakurts won't replace these.

    I also don't see as a given that all Nanuchkas & Tarantuls will be scrapped.  The better ones will probably be retained for quite awhile, probably modernised with Uran.  The pair of Molniya boats are being upgraded with Uran and Pantsir-M for delivery to navy by 2019, so I wouldn't surprised if other hulls were similarly retained and modernised.

    2x Molniyas to be upgraded

    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Tingsay on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:22 pm

    I forgot Parchim was a light ASW. However, there should be no replacement for any light ASW. Decades ago yeah I see why they made them. Now? its just a half-assed anti-sub weapon. Shipborne light weight torpedos suck in these day and age. Outranged and outsped by submarine heavy torpedoes, its not funny. Helicopters for anti-sub or get out. Pr 22160 should have a ASW variant as replacement for Parchims.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:40 am

    Tingsay wrote:I forgot Parchim was a light ASW. However, there should be no replacement for any light ASW. Decades ago yeah I see why they made them. Now? its just a half-assed anti-sub weapon. Shipborne light weight torpedos suck in these day and age. Outranged and outsped by submarine heavy torpedoes, its not funny. Helicopters for anti-sub or get out. Pr 22160 should have a ASW variant as replacement for Parchims.

    Light ASW still has uses in littoral areas like Baltic and the Black Sea where the likely enemy will be SSKs that lack the speed to outrun a fast surface corvette.  Helos clearly have much greater range and ability to interdict swiftly, but they are restricted to sonobuoys and magnetometers, and carry smaller aerial torpedos of limited range and warhead size. Parchims have a decent sonar (for their age) and 400mm torps, incl wire and acoustic guided variants, so they are quite capable in this regard.

    Agree that a 22160 variant geared for ASW could be a fine replacement for the ageing Parchims but it would be a significant design change to include a box sonar and torpedos.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  marat on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:23 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Tingsay wrote:I forgot Parchim was a light ASW. However, there should be no replacement for any light ASW. Decades ago yeah I see why they made them. Now? its just a half-assed anti-sub weapon. Shipborne light weight torpedos suck in these day and age. Outranged and outsped by submarine heavy torpedoes, its not funny. Helicopters for anti-sub or get out. Pr 22160 should have a ASW variant as replacement for Parchims.

    Light ASW still has uses in littoral areas like Baltic and the Black Sea where the likely enemy will be SSKs that lack the speed to outrun a fast surface corvette.  Helos clearly have much greater range and ability to interdict swiftly, but they are restricted to sonobuoys and magnetometers, and carry smaller aerial torpedos of limited range and warhead size. Parchims have a decent sonar (for their age) and 400mm torps, incl wire and acoustic guided variants, so they are quite capable in this regard.

    Agree that a 22160 variant geared for ASW could be a fine replacement for the ageing Parchims but it would be a significant design change to include a box sonar and torpedos.
    They are needed for Ohotsk and White sea as well to protect bases RuNavy have there from submarine infiltration and to spare capital ships from that duty as much as possible.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:12 am

    MOSCOW, July 30. /TASS/. Russia may supply Project 22800 corvettes codenamed Karakurt, armed with the Kaliber missiles, to Vietnam, China, India and other countries of the Asia-Pacific Region, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told reporters on Monday.
    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1015296
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:43 am

    What they need are fully multirole vessels from tiny to huge.

    Obviously it is easier to make bigger ships fully multirole, but with smaller ships there will be more specialisation, but as far as possible the way to go in multirole.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:15 pm

    So in terms of replacing 1:1 by Charly015 count http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/07/los-graficos-de-la-armada-rusa.html there are currently its 36* Nanuchka & Tarantul

    so the planned 12* Buyan-M & 18* 22800 actually does come fairly close to 1:1, just needs another batch of 6.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:42 pm

    Lets be generous and count the six Bykovs. Smile

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