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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    kumbor

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    Karakurt pr.22800 corvette

    Post  kumbor on Thu May 03, 2018 7:56 am

    GarryB wrote:The top view of the Pantsir system from the back I thought the flattened ball on top was a radar, but it looks like all the optics are there...

    Nice... looks much better organised and laid out and simpler... (Pantsir that is).

    The flattened ball? If you think of an angled dome based on the top of the bridge, it`s a MR-123 Vympel array, FD radar for AK-630.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Thu May 03, 2018 5:03 pm

    Worth noting this is the first roll-out of a production Pantsir-M on a ship (this config has been seen on display on land a couple of pics), here is a recent pic of the boat that was supposed to be doing sea-tests...


    Also looking very complete, seeming like there is some hold-up that the 1st boat still hasn't started sea-trials...
    Wondering when we'll see the first Crimean boat launch, 3rd hull was laid down there before this ship.
    Speaking of the Crimean ones BMPD article has some info suggesting there are 5 currently in-build in Crimea, also expecting a 6 boat order for Pacific Fleet at Komsomolsk-on-Amur (I thought they'd been ruled out?) this year Shocked https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3183161.html
    The small rocket ship (MRK) of project 22800 Shkval (plant number 253) was laid at the Pella plant on July 29, 2016 and became the third ship of this project being built at the enterprise. Before him were initiated stroitestvom MRK "Hurricane" (serial number 251) and "Typhoon" (serial number 252), a bookmark which was held at the factory "Pella" December 24, 2015. The main ship "Hurricane" was launched on July 29, 2017 and should begin factory trials in May 2018. The second RTD Typhoon was launchedon November 24, 2017. Both these IRs do not carry the "Pantsir-M", and are equipped instead with two old 30-mm artillery munitions AK-630.
    ...
    December 24, 2016 at the factory "laid the fourth IRA of this project "Storm" (serial number 257).

    Since the Pella plant is the main investor of the Moret Shipyard in Feodosia (Crimea), and in November 2016 received the latter's capacity for lease until December 31, 2020, respectively, of the seven RTOs of Project 22800 ordered by the " Pellet ", three ships should be built at NW" Sea "in close cooperation with" Pella ", which led to the transfer of the construction of three units to Feodosia. The first RTD of this project " Storm " (plant number 254) was laid in Feodosia on May 10, 2016 year, the second "Okhotsk"(serial number 256) - was laid down on December 19, 2017. The RTOs under construction in Feodosia received construction numbers from 254 to 256 "in a row" of the building numbers of this project at Pellet.

    August 5, 2016 Russian Ministry of Defense contract to build the Navy for another five small missile ships of project 22800 receivedJSC Zelenodolsky Plant named after AM Gorky (Zelenodolsk). At the same time Zelenodolsk plant was actually received under temporary management of Zaliv Shipbuilding Plant LLC in Kerch (Crimea) from the end of 2014. According to unofficial information, the main Zelenodolsky IRC of Project 22800, called "Cyclone" (serial number 801), was without special publicity laid at the shipyard "Bay" in Kerch in the summer of 2016. According to the information currently in the factory "Bay" is already under construction next two IRs project 22800 with serial numbers 802 (was also founded in 2016) and 803

    summer 2017 was reported, that the Ministry of Defense of Russia is going to place an order in 2018 to build six more small missile ships of Project 22800 for the Pacific Fleet at JSC "Amur Shipbuilding Plant" (part of United Shipbuilding Corporation) in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Fri May 04, 2018 5:14 am

    And now Balancer provides updates on the Zaliv Kerch boats
    Satellite pic from 18 April https://prnt.sc/jddni9 and early March https://prnt.sc/jddxdq shows 2* 22160 at the bottom, 3* 22800 up top & looks like they're all Pantsir-M version which is interesting.

    Also another pic of new boat

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Fri May 04, 2018 10:54 am

    Why is this interesting? Its supposed to be the standard.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Fri May 04, 2018 12:32 pm

    At least one of them was expected to be AK-630 version.
    Ain't complaining Very Happy

    More pics via Balancer



    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sat May 05, 2018 2:52 am

    Moar pics! cheers






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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 05, 2018 8:26 am

    That location should give it an excellent field of fire....

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sat May 05, 2018 12:04 pm

    Flotprom reports its launched https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B04/
    But pics appear to be pre-ceremony like above.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pm


    It's in the water, somebody give these people blueprints for Derzkii-class thumbsup

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    Luq man

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Luq man on Sat May 05, 2018 9:33 pm


    miroslav

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  miroslav on Sat May 05, 2018 10:36 pm

    Hevent posted anything on the forum in a while, so here it goes.

    4th ship in the background during the rolling out, the day before the ceremony. Wont be long, in September or October.



    On the day of the ceremony, pushed to front.


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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun May 06, 2018 12:23 am

    miroslav wrote:Hevent posted anything on the forum in a while, so here it goes.

    4th ship in the background during the rolling out, the day before the ceremony. Wont be long, in September or October.



    On the day of the ceremony, pushed to front.




    Thank you for these awesome pictures.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  George1 on Sun May 06, 2018 1:11 am

    The small missile ship "Shkval" will be the first in the Russian Navy, equipped with a new ship-launched anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Pantsir-M" developed by JSC "Design Bureau of Instrumentation". The combat module "Pantsir-M" is already installed on the "Shkval". Marine tests of the prototype "Pantsir-M." Should be started in 2018 on the missile boat "Shuya" project 12417 of the Black Sea Fleet.

    "Shkval" (serial number 253) became the third ship of the project 22800, being built at the Pella plant. Prior to it, construction was started by the Uragan (factory number 251) and Typhoon (plant number 252), the laying of which took place at the Pella plant on December 24, 2015. The main ship "Uragan" was launched on July 29, 2017 and should begin factory trials in May 2018. The second, "Typhoon", was launched on November 24, 2017. Both these do not carry the "Pantsyr-M", and are equipped with two old 30-mm artillery units AK-630 instead.

    The project 22800 was developed by JSC "Central Marine Design Bureau" Almaz "(St. Petersburg) and should replace the project 21631 (code" Buyan-M ") in Russian Navy development of JSC "Zelenodolsk Design Bureau" (the construction of the latter is limited to 12 units). It was reported that the Russian Navy planned to have at least 18 ships of Project 22800.
    The construction of the first seven ships of Project 22800 is carried out by the Pella plant under a contract in accordance with the order of the Government of the Russian Federation for the company's receipt of the status of the only supplier for this project.

    On December 24, 2016 the fourth ship of this project "Storm" (serial number 257) was laid at the Pella plant.

    Since the Pella plant is the main investor of the Moret Shipyard in Feodosia (Crimea), and in November 2016 received the latter's capacity for lease until December 31, 2020, respectively, of the seven Small Missile Ships of Project 22800 ordered by the "Pella", three ships should be built at More Shipyard, in close cooperation with "Pella", which led to the transfer of the construction of three units to Feodosia. The first Small Missile Ships of this project, "Storm" (plant number 254) was laid in Feodosia on May 10, 2016 year, the second "Okhotsk" (plant number 255) - laid in Feodosia on March 17, 2017 and, third, "Vikhr" (serial number 256) -. was laid on December 19, 2017.
    The Small Missile Ships under construction in Feodosia received construction numbers from 254 to 256 "in a row" of the building numbers of this project at Pella.

    On August 5, 2016, the Zelenodolsky Plant named after AM Gorky (Zelenodolsk) received the contract of the Russian Defense Ministry for the construction of five more small-sized 22800 missile ships for the Navy. At the same time Zelenodolsk plant was actually received under temporary management of Zaliv Shipbuilding Plant LLC in Kerch (Crimea) from the end of 2014. According to unofficial information, the main Zelenodolsky IRC of Project 22800, called "Cyclone" (serial number 801), was without special publicity was laid at the Zaliv shipbuilding plant in Kerch in the summer of 2016. According to available information, the next two MRKs of the 22800 project with factory numbers 802 (also laid in 2016) and 803 are already being built at the Zaliv plant.

    At the ceremony of launching the "Shkval", Deputy Minister of Defense of Russia Yury Borisov said that in 2019 the Ministry of Defense plans to conclude a contract for six small missile ships of Project 22800 for the Pacific Fleet. Four of them will be built at JSC "Amur Shipyard" (Komsomolsk-on-Amur) and two at the JSC "Vostochnaya Verf" (Vladivostok).

    "We have now reached the pace of about 30 months of the construction of these ships, which is a very good pace, and the fleet is very much waiting for these ships, because of their seaworthiness, technical parameters, combat capabilities, are considered today among the best ships of this class," said Borisov .

    According to him, the first ships will go to the Baltic. "In general, each fleet will be equipped with similar ships to protect the near sea zone," - said the Deputy Minister of Defense.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3187277.html

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Sun May 06, 2018 7:16 am

    Better pic of the 4th via BMPD


    And a Balancer haul

    Ship behind is apparently Project 16450






    Solid smash thumbsup

    Borisov always looks like such a goober (obviously isn't actually since he seems to be one of the 'really gets stuff done' guys)












    Bonus





    Four of them will be built at JSC "Amur Shipyard" (Komsomolsk-on-Amur) and two at the JSC "Vostochnaya Verf" (Vladivostok).
    This seems like a good idea, Komsomolsk will be kept under pressure to actually make progress (at least, as long as Vostochnaya aren't worse...)

    Interestingly they're talking about Uragan doing trials on Lake Ladoga Suspect eg https://flotprom.ru/2018/299238/
    I guess Pella is a decent distance upstream so Ladoga is closer than the Baltic and it seems there is a test range up there
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 07, 2018 12:51 am

    The person who designed that ladies bands uniform is obviously a leg man... excellent work...

    Regarding the new Pantsir system... very interesting... down to one main radar array and one optical pod on top... I am guessing they have passed the scanning duties to the ships main array simply because it is already a 360 degree electronically scanned array in much better position and much more powerful and effective than anything they could put on any gun mount.

    It would also make each gun mount cheaper and lighter.

    This is not that unusual because a normal Pantsir battery can operate with only one or a couple of vehicles scanning for targets and passing target data on to the other platforms and the command unit... the command unit then allocates targets based on position of the units, direction and range of targets and numbers of rounds and missiles left in each unit.

    In this case the command role would be taken by the ship, so the mount would operate as a pantsir vehicle that does not need to scan for targets.

    This makes a lot of sense for the reasons already given without reducing or limiting the performance of the system.

    The extra height of the mast mounted antenna would even give it a longer radar horison for detection, though the optics or tracking radar would have to have a direct line of sight to actually hit a target.

    Compare the view above to Kashtan which had radars in MMW and CM wave, as well as various optics packs and sensors (Elint) to detect low flying threats... this looks very clean and simple, but all the important components are there.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  hoom on Mon May 07, 2018 7:43 am

    You didn't really expect the search radar to be mounted on the combat module did you?
    The search radar is mounted on the combat module in the land versions because those are expected to be able to operate autonomously without a separate radar/command vehicle.

    The new fixed arrays are pretty clearly Pantsir-S2 arrays, S2 is supposed to be able to operate in linked pairs with the antennas fixed at 90 degrees providing 360 coverage (& I believe one vehicle operating as command), so this is kinda that.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 07, 2018 10:41 am

    GarryB wrote:The person who designed that ladies bands uniform is obviously a leg man... excellent work...

    why I am not surprised to hear this from you respekt respekt respekt




    This is not that unusual because a normal Pantsir battery can operate with only one or a couple of vehicles scanning for targets and passing target data on to the other platforms and the command unit... the command unit then allocates targets based on position of the units, direction and range of targets and numbers of rounds and missiles left in each unit.

    In this case the command role would be taken by the ship, so the mount would operate as a pantsir vehicle that does not need to scan for targets.

    This makes a lot of sense for the reasons already given without reducing or limiting the performance of the system.

    dont forget that 120 rounds/min 76mm is very powerful anti missile weapon with right ammo. And engagement range is way beyond 30mm.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  flamming_python on Mon May 07, 2018 11:21 am

    Still, engaging the ship dead-on towards the bow with a sea-skimming missile seems to be the optimal profile for an attacker.

    The Pantsir has a dead-zone that way and won't be able to engage with its autocannons at least, while the 76mm cannon won't be able to engage the missile when its close enough as the bow slopes upward and that gives the gun a depression dead-zone close-in.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Hole on Mon May 07, 2018 12:20 pm

    The thing is the radar will see the incoming anti-ship missile and the missile from the Pantsir system can fly a curve.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 07, 2018 3:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Still, engaging the ship dead-on towards the bow with a sea-skimming missile seems to be the optimal profile for an attacker.

    The Pantsir has a dead-zone that way and won't be able to engage with its autocannons at least, while the 76mm cannon won't be able to engage the missile when its close enough as the bow slopes upward and that gives the gun a depression dead-zone close-in.

    Italian DART 76mm ammo looks like can hit the target.  I m sure Russia works on similar stuff like they did for 57mm.

    http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/dart-1


    Hole wrote:The thing is the radar will see the incoming anti-ship missile and the missile from the Pantsir system can fly a curve.

    http://www.leonardocompany.com/documents/63265270/66959012/body_STRALES_2013_1.pdf
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  flamming_python on Mon May 07, 2018 5:18 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Still, engaging the ship dead-on towards the bow with a sea-skimming missile seems to be the optimal profile for an attacker.

    The Pantsir has a dead-zone that way and won't be able to engage with its autocannons at least, while the 76mm cannon won't be able to engage the missile when its close enough as the bow slopes upward and that gives the gun a depression dead-zone close-in.

    Italian DART 76mm ammo looks like can hit the target.  I m sure Russia works on similar stuff like they did for 57mm.

    http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/dart-1

    I'm sure Russia has worked on it too.

    But you can see from that render that the missile looks to be about 5-10m above sea-level.

    Whereas the latest generation of American ASMs will be flying at less than a meter above the water. That means a substantial minimum-range for the 76mm cannon; below which it won't be able to target the missile - unless the shell has a directional warhead of course.

    Hole wrote:The thing is the radar will see the incoming anti-ship missile and the missile from the Pantsir system can fly a curve.

    Of course; but the missile still has a better chance of getting through by having to contend with just the Pantsir missile; as opposed to the Pantsir missile + autocannons or 76mm cannon fire.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Isos on Mon May 07, 2018 5:38 pm

    Wikipedia wrote:The gun is fed by 152 ready to fire rounds and has selectable rates of fire of 30, 60 and 120 rounds per minute. The 120 r.p.m. rate is achieved by firing a burst of 75, but afterwards the gun has to cool off for 30 minutes. The AK-176 is effective against missiles, being able to shoot down AT-2 Swatter (simulating a Harpoon anti-ship missile), taking an average of 25 rounds per kill.

    New ones should need less rounds. Specially if they are time fuzed to explode near the missile.

    And they already have those type of rounds like for exemple for ak 130 gun they have :

    Wikipedia wrote:Cartridges used on A-217, A-218, A-222 and A-192M systems are:

    F-44 - Explosive round, projectile weight 33.4 kg, explosive weight 3.56 kg, with 4MRM fuze.
    ZS-44 - Anti-aircraft round, projectile weight 33.4 kg, explosive weight 3.56 kg, with DVM-60M1 fuze.
    ZS-44R - Anti-aircraft round, projectile weight 33.4 kg, explosive weight 3.56 kg, with AR-32 fuze.
    Maximum allowed error for ZS-series rounds:

    8 m (radio-controlled fuze, anti-ship missiles)
    15 m (radio-controlled fuze, aircraft)
    Cartridge weight: 52.8 kg. Length: 1364–1369 mm, unitary loading.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 08, 2018 2:20 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    But you can see from that render that the missile looks to be about 5-10m above sea-level.

    Whereas the latest generation of American ASMs will be flying at less than a meter above the water. That means a substantial minimum-range for the 76mm cannon; below which it won't be able to target the missile - unless the shell has a directional warhead of course.


    Not sure how accurate the render but in technical description there is: maneuverability 40g and also proximity fuze. To me it looks like gun is used as first booster for actual small missile.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 08, 2018 10:59 am

    You didn't really expect the search radar to be mounted on the combat module did you?

    The Kashtan and Kashtan-M have search radars included... such naval mounts have been fully self contained systems and that is particularly because of the scan rate of the main radar on most large Soviet vessels... ie not that fast.

    With this new vessel it is electronically scanned so the scan rate for 360 degrees could be measured in miliseconds if you wanted...

    dont forget that 120 rounds/min 76mm is very powerful anti missile weapon with right ammo. And engagement range is way beyond 30mm.

    I would say the performance of the 76mm gun will be greatly improved with the new AESA radar, as the precision of tracking both the targets and the outgoing shells should make accuracy much better... and with airburst shells the lethality of the rounds should be rather impressive...

    If guided shells are used then one to two shots per target should be enough out to about 16km or so.

    Still, engaging the ship dead-on towards the bow with a sea-skimming missile seems to be the optimal profile for an attacker.

    If you watch ship interceptions with Russian weapons then bow or stern attacks are common with the momentum of the high speed missiles penetrating the full length of the targets doing enormous damage, but look at western missile hits on targets and they often hit from the side.

    I think most of the time a western missile will be aimed at the side of a vessel to aim for a much larger side on target view, while Soviet and Russian missiles seem to assume being detected...

    Standard procedure for a ships captain with a torpedo or an anti ship missile is to turn towards the target to make your ship a smaller target... with western anti ship missiles that might be useful... against a supersonic missile that might increase the damage done.

    The thing is the radar will see the incoming anti-ship missile and the missile from the Pantsir system can fly a curve.

    The tracking radar and optics are on the rear mount so targets in front of the bridge would be relatively safe from the Pantsir system.

    I would suspect it would mean early detection using the AESAs and the captain turns the ship to bring the Pantsirs to line of sight... while the 76mm gun pumps out shells.

    New ones should need less rounds. Specially if they are time fuzed to explode near the missile.

    The Russian Army has 30mm cannon shells with air burst fuses that detect coded laser signals to set off the rounds at the correct distance to detonate them at the right time for max effect.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Isos on Tue May 08, 2018 11:24 am


    The Russian Army has 30mm cannon shells with air burst fuses that detect coded laser signals to set off the rounds at the correct distance to detonate them at the right time for max effect.

    The range of 30mm is very limited and they are better for CIWS use. 76mm or 130mm will have ranges of 10-20km so they are better. Anti ship missiles most of the flight will go straight so it is really easy to shoot them with those sort of munition which can be better than any missile if they have a very good radar fcs and a very good fuze.

    If you achieve to need only 1 or 2 rounds per antiship missile with a gun able to shoot 120 rounds per minutes then you can destroy with it all the 8 missiles that most of ships around the world carry.

    I think that it could be the future of short/medium air defence systems. If you achieve to make it undetectable by not using radars but only passive detectors then it's just a wonderfull weapon. It is much more cheaper to have a 57 or 76 or 100mm shell with a fuse than to have a missile with a radar and lot of electronics inside. MAWS would be able to spot the shell too so it could be even used against fighters which won't know they are targeted so they won't take evasive actions.

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