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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:43 pm


    Uragan and Taifun
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:30 am

    Glad you were not offended Lsos.

    I agree that in time they do need larger ships... small ships they can move through their inland canals that can carry long range land attack cruise missiles and bypass the INF treaty because the US insisted it not include air or sea based missiles, means they can attack most of NATO from rivers in Russia, but at the end of the day Russia needs to expand beyond its bases out into the world.

    Right now they have a lot of destroyer sized vessels and a couple of cruisers from the cold war that have plenty of potential in terms of upgrades with new weapons and sensors and systems... I personally think upgrading those will buy them 10 years where they can perfect their technologies in terms of conventional and nuclear propulsion and also their larger radar sets and bigger SAM systems that they will need to adapt to the naval environment.

    Producing smaller vessels means replacing older obsolete models with vessels comparable to cold war destroyers... a corvette armed with one UKSK launcher has the same main weapon fire power as a Sovremmeny class destroyer... in fact the 8 missiles it carries today outperform the Moskits the Sovs carried... Onyx with land attack capability is more flexible and much more powerful than the Moskit and it can also carry Klub and Calibr land attack missiles in the same tubes or even anti sub missiles... so in effect these corvettes can replace a sov class destroyer or a udaloy class destroyer with 8 91RE2s loaded in its UKSK tubes, and there was no Soviet vessel during the cold war that could carry 2,500km range land attack cruise missiles with a conventional warhead that could be used in conventional wars.

    Their new air launched cruise missiles have a range of 5,500km, so a naval model with increased range should not be impossible either.

    Upgrading existing vessels with UKSK launchers and new electronics and systems will greatly improve performance, while new build ships will have further advantages in even better propulsion and sensors and systems.

    The point is that it will take time and there is no super urgent hurry because right now they have a cruiser and they have destroyers that no one wants to mess with right now.

    The fact that they can't take on all of NATO right now is not important either... what do they actually have to fight them over right now anyway?

    Georgia?

    The Ukraine?

    They can have both.

    NATO bases in both countries would be very vulnerable to direct attack in any conflict... During WWII the Polish forces placed on the Polish border with Germany were obliterated quickly, as were French forces rushed to their border when their time came...


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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:44 am

    Actually the main think limiting the speed of a missile is its motor... with a solid rocket booster a modern calibr cruise missile is relatively low drag but its engine is going to be relatively small so it is like a truck in that it will climb and build up speed after launch... its current top speed limited by the low power turbofan engine it uses for its long flight range.

    It would be interesting to replace that turbofan engine with high efficiency with a scramjet engine.... to solid rocket booster would get it up into the air and moving at a reasonable subsonic speed, and the scramjet could then accelerate the missile and climb to rather high altitudes where it could continue to climb and accelerate.

    As it burned fuel the missile would get lighter and lighter so higher speeds would become achievable... a small scramjet would not be able to make a big 2.5 ton missile supersonic at low altitudes but as it climbed and burned fuel and got lighter it is a long narrow low drag shape that for the first part of its flight it could be subsonic but accelerating and climbing and eventually accelerating beyond the speed of sound.

    A turbofan would not be able to allow the missile to be supersonic just like a boeing would not, but with a scramjet that is perfectly possible... the wings deploy to a straight position for early subsonic cruise and perhaps fold back as speed increases in a swept mode to allow the transition to supersonic speed... as it gets closer and closer to its target and burns off fuel and gets lighter and lighter and higher and higher it could keep accelerating all the way eventually getting to rather high speeds because there is no speed limit for a scramjet engine... there is no point where it stops generating thrust...

    A turbojet on the other hand will reach a limit where it will choke on the air because it is coming in at too high a speed at high flight speeds.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:43 am


    Another Karakurt laid down in Feodosia, name is Vikhr:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/89104/
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:46 pm



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3010194.html


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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:53 am

    Cool  Very Happy
    Different plate again Suspect

    Previous one

    and the one before


    Also pic from Balancer, must be 1st boat since it hasn't got the radar panels when this was taken

    ult

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  ult on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:39 am

    hoom wrote:Cool  Very Happy
    Different plate again Suspect

    Previous one

    and the one before

    Also pic from Balancer, must be 1st boat since it hasn't got the radar panels when this was taken

    That is because this time they've actually made a correct version of Pantsir's silhouette.




    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:59 am

    Right you are.
    The older ones had it up on a pedestal for some reason.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:03 pm



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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:00 pm


    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:53 am

    Some more recent pics via Balancer










    kumbor

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    Project 22800 SM craft

    Post  kumbor on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:27 pm

    hoom wrote:Some more recent pics via Balancer











    Kalibr VLS gives possibility of targeting distant targets. 100mm gun is excellent and Pantsir-M enables adequate AA defence for such a small ship. There is no real AS defence, but you can not count for such a small ship to integrate capable AS suite.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:48 am

    100mm gun is excellent and Pantsir-M enables adequate AA defence for such a small ship. There is no real AS defence, but you can not count for such a small ship to integrate capable AS suite.
    Only a 76mm gun but its a new model.
    Pantsir is explicitly a missile defense system, in Syria the land version has proven able to shoot down small drones & mach 2 Grad rockets out to 20km range often with single missile launch claimed.
    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:53 am

    Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...


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    kumbor

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    Karakurt pr.22800

    Post  kumbor on Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:26 am

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...
    Yes but the point was about antiship capability.

    I really wish there would be some official statement on what those damn panel radars actually are.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:00 am

    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    New ships have Sigma battle management system. So they don't need a sonar. Bigger ships will provide them the coordinate of a underwater target through datalinks in real time and they will lunch the 91RE1.

    But it would be interesting to k ow if a small civilian sonar that should weight hundreds of kg which means nothing could detect a torpedo lunch to increase the defence awerness.

    kumbor

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    Karakurt pr.22800 corvette

    Post  kumbor on Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Did you have to repeat all those photos for your reply?

    UKSK means it can carry not just the long range ground strike Calibr, it has 3 different AS missile options: P-800 Onyx, the supersonic AS Calibr & the long range subsonic AS Calibr too, hypersonic Zircon yet to come.

    And it can launch the 91Re1 ballistic anti sub torpedo...

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    New ships have Sigma battle management system. So they don't need a sonar. Bigger ships will provide them the coordinate of a underwater target through datalinks in real time and they will lunch the 91RE1.

    But it would be interesting to k ow if a small civilian sonar that should weight hundreds of kg which means nothing could detect a torpedo lunch to increase the defence awerness.

    Maybe that assimetric response can work, but relying on several ships to exchange data is prone to jamming and simply to breakdown.I don`t think that russian navy is sufficiently trained to coordinate data exchange as to use full potential of their AS weapons (remember Rastrub on Karas and Udaloys - missiles with 50km+ range, and sonars that cannot track precisely at more that 10-20km). Russians hadn`t such a good coordination needed even in their heyday of early 80s. And, where is the guarantee that "bigger ships" will be somewhere near. Don`t say that russian navy is growing fast! They have only stopped dramatic decline in ship numbers!There is no proof that datalinks will work properly in crisis situation. Having in mind that western order of AS combat is worsening from day to day, russian squadrons have simpler job. E.g.,I think that 19, if not less major destroyer/frigates of RN not only cannot control any significant area of North sea or North Atlantic, they cannot control even "Western approaches" effectively- that is to say, their domestic waters. Bundesmarine at this moment has 0 subs operable, due to breakdowns. Western navies are lacking real training due to constant budget cuts.

    I remember, concerning Adriatic sea, that in 1999. during NATO intervention against Serbia and Montenegro, Us SSN captains said> "To dive in these shallow waters, patrol dived, maybe make some attack- you are nuts, in this puddle of sea!!!" Nevertheless, Yugoslavia maintained submarine squadron 1927-2000, they dived and patrolled normally, in that Adriatic "puddle'".

    Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:09 pm

    European navies can't even control russian ships passing near them. Last british destroyers are detectable at hundreds of km by sonars because of their very advanced technology that actually is total bullshit. German frigates are inclined and will be probably destroyed by waves if deployed in the north. New French and italian ships are very good but they have little of them and they operates with charles de gaulles for frenchies which means they will be targeted by aviation and antiships missles rather than anti sub capabilities so karakurt are very good for that.

    US are sending most of their fleet in he pacific to counter the everyday growning chinese navy.

    Russian ships are also growning in numbers and in technology. They include sigma system so it means it is a very capable sytem and already tested because it is deployed. Jamming this would meant the jamming source is close to the ships so they will be able to destroy it.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:20 am

    hoom wrote:
    Pantsir is explicitly a missile defense system, in Syria the land version has proven able to shoot down small drones & mach 2 Grad rockets out to 20km range often with single missile launch claimed..

    Pantsir will be upgraded till 40km range and hypersonic missiles (~1800m/s) too.






    kumbor wrote:
    Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.

    Second that. They are actually MRK - small rocket ships not corvettes in Russian naming convention. But true I'd love to see them having basic Paket for self defense and basic ASW tasks.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:47 am

    Yes but the point was about antiship capability.

    No. I think when he asked about AS defence he was talking about ASW defence... ie anti sub, not anti ship.

    But the hull lacks space and weight for good sonar suite, So if AS missiles are carried, how to achieve targeting and guidance? E.g. Integration of huge Zvezda sonar on pr.11551 Udaloy II, or pr.11540 added 500 tons+ displacement and much space.

    These are small vessels that wont be operating on their own in the north atlantic or north pacific for that matter.

    They will generally operate in Russian waters and sea bed arrays should be sufficient to give them warning of threats or targets.

    When hunting submarines they could easily operate unmanned sub vehicles with sonar and the helicopter they carry could use dipping sonar to find targets that could be engaged by the helicopter itself or rocket propelled torpedoes.

    remember Rastrub on Karas and Udaloys - missiles with 50km+ range, and sonars that cannot track precisely at more that 10-20km).

    Works both ways... the ASROC and SUBROC were supposed to be replaced by a missile called Sea Lance, but in the end the Soviet/Russian subs were getting their noise levels down to the point that without using active sonar as a matter of course the extra range of Sea Lance was useless because the extra range could not be exploited because Russian subs could not be reliably detected and identified at that extra range.

    Karas and Udaloys also had helicopters that could find targets that could then be rapidly engaged by ship based weapons.

    Russians hadn`t such a good coordination needed even in their heyday of early 80s.

    First of all those were Soviet ships and each was custom designed for a mission except the very big ships that had multiple roles with a variety of weapons.

    With the unification of launchers so anti ship and anti sub and now land attack missiles can be carried in mixtures in one unified launcher the new vessels are fully multirole so their sensors and equipment reflect that... one of the reasons why they are taking so long... in addition to problems with engines and SAMs.

    Karakurt corvettes are dedicated antiship/groundattack/and even good AA vessels for their size. It was impossible to tailor good AS capability at the same time within such limited displacement.

    Sub hunting is serious business and no single vessel would do it on its own... even in Soviet times the Udaloys would have Sovremmeny escorts and other vessels operating with them too.

    Helicopters make vessels more flexible and having an anti sub helo on board gives it capabilities it would otherwise not have... variable depth sonar and the speed to move 30km away from the ship and have a look for an enemy sub that can be engaged directly from the ship by a 91E missile is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with underwater threats if enemy subs are suspected.

    Pantsir will be upgraded till 40km range and hypersonic missiles (~1800m/s) too.

    The hypersonic models are supposed to reach 60km and in flat open sea environments would be rather more effective because of lack of hills or trees.

    Second that. They are actually MRK - small rocket ships not corvettes in Russian naming convention. But true I'd love to see them having basic Paket for self defense and basic ASW tasks.

    They are multirole vessels but can't be expert in every area... that is just silly to expect that... it would be like expecting a new pistol to replace assault rifle and sniper rifle and belt fed machine gun...


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:42 pm


    ''Uragan'' bridge:

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:51 am

    Another pic via Balancer

    Must be getting pretty close to starting sea trials.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom Yesterday at 4:13 am

    New from Balancer

    2nd boat has caught up a lot with the 1st.




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