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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    Azi

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Karakurts ARE NOT corvettes and never will be. They don't have ASW and AAW sensors and weapons because they ARE NOT corvettes.

    They are MISSILE SHIPS.

    Corvettes in Russian Navy start with Steregushi class and above.
    In western classification Karakurt is a corvette. Everything above speed and patrol boat is a corvette. After that frigate, destroyer etc. Ok, in russian classification Karakurt is missile ship, that's right ^^

    It's funny that Steregushchiy class is in western classification a corvette on border to frigate Very Happy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:55 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

    Well, they are not, they simply  have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.
    Compare the Karakurt with western pendants! A small ship with the armament of Kalibr (UKSK system) and the ability to attack high value targets is not bad. In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...). The german K 130 corvette has a attack range of around 280 km with AGM-84 Harpoon, the russian 3M54 missile has a range of 530 km.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:36 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

    Well, they are not, they simply  have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.
    Compare the Karakurt with western pendants! A small ship with the armament of Kalibr (UKSK system) and the ability to attack high value targets is not bad. In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...). The german K 130 corvette has a attack range of around 280 km with AGM-84 Harpoon, the russian 3M54 missile has a range of 530 km.

    That's not because of western capabilities to do so. It's because of their naval philosophy. They want blue navies with big ships.

    US had mk-41 VLS able to fire Tomahawks in the 70s. They could have designed a smal corvette armed with it like 50 years ago ...

    Stop this argument of "missile boat armed like a destroyer". That's pathetic. The reality is that any Admiral would want destroyer instead of Karakurts even Russians. They have only 8 missiles and are easy target for aviation if they are not covered by other assests like fighter or bigger ship.

    They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

    In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...).

    No they don't. Burkes can go from US to Syria and lunch an Attack that would recquire 7 Karakurts and be protected by their own AEGIS.

    How would you lunch a cruise missile Attack so far with karakurts they would be destroyed before reaching the lunch position.

    That's reality

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:38 pm

    Typhoon is launched.
    Pics via Balancer












    And a couple from Flotprom http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B017/



    This one has launched with the radar panels in place Very Happy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:13 pm

    Azi wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Karakurts ARE NOT corvettes and never will be. They don't have ASW and AAW sensors and weapons because they ARE NOT corvettes.

    They are MISSILE SHIPS.

    Corvettes in Russian Navy start with Steregushi class and above.
    In western classification Karakurt is a corvette. Everything above speed and patrol boat is a corvette. After that frigate, destroyer etc. Ok, in russian classification Karakurt is missile ship, that's right ^^

    It's funny that Steregushchiy class is in western classification a corvette on border to frigate Very Happy

    Not at all.

    Main definition of a corvette, in Western Navies, is of a ship NOT able to follow a Task Force (max speed not enough to keep pace with frigates and destroyers), mainly tasked with ASW, patrol and (or) ASh missions.

    So Karakurt is not a corvette in the western meaning.

    Its most close relative, in western navies, would be the Braunschweig Class, and that class superceded the Gepard class, a Fast attack Boat class.

    Stereguschy, in turn, are corvettes on steroids, very close to a 70's western frigate with the exeption of a full Diesel power plant aimed to endurance.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:27 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:The reasoning about weapon/displacement was because some forumers made a comparison to other kind of vessels,stating that Karakurt are armed to the teeth.

    Well, they are not, they simply  have the displacement required to embark UKSK and related systems.
    Compare the Karakurt with western pendants! A small ship with the armament of Kalibr (UKSK system) and the ability to attack high value targets is not bad. In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...). The german K 130 corvette has a attack range of around 280 km with AGM-84 Harpoon, the russian 3M54 missile has a range of 530 km.

    That's not because of western capabilities to do so. It's because of their naval philosophy. They want blue navies with big ships.

    US had mk-41 VLS able to fire Tomahawks in the 70s. They could have designed a smal corvette armed with it like 50 years ago ...

    Stop this argument of "missile boat armed like a destroyer". That's pathetic. The reality is that any Admiral would want destroyer instead of Karakurts even Russians. They have only 8 missiles and are easy target for aviation if they are not covered by other assests like fighter or bigger ship.

    They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

    In US Navy you have the same attack capability with Burkes (ok, a few cruise missile more...).

    No they don't. Burkes can go from US to Syria and lunch an Attack that would recquire 7 Karakurts and be protected by their own AEGIS.

    How would you lunch a cruise missile Attack so far with karakurts they would be destroyed before reaching the lunch position.

    That's reality

    They wouldn't, because its not their mission.

    Karakurt are short range (in the meaning of ship's own endurance) land attack boats, able to perform Ash mission as well.

    They play two roles, first they provide a dispersed land attack capabilty, so that Russia have an attack platform at hand in any theater close to its borders without have to deploy its main ships, second they could provide a backup retaliation tool, if armed with long range nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

    They are not meant to cruise far from home waters, but to deploy and keep moving inside home waters.

    If I had to give them a bad note, it would be to the lack of any landing pad.

    At least a basic landing pad without any hangar (meaning of course a larger and longer hull) could be a real asset if any unusual task should be performed.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:17 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    .

    Not at all.

    Main definition of a corvette, in Western Navies, is of a ship NOT able to follow a Task Force (max speed not enough to keep pace with frigates and destroyers), mainly tasked with ASW, patrol and (or) ASh missions.

    So Karakurt is not a corvette in the western meaning.

    Its most close relative, in western navies, would be the Braunschweig Class, and that class superceded the Gepard class, a Fast attack Boat class.

    Stereguschy, in turn, are corvettes on steroids, very close to a 70's western frigate with the exeption of a full Diesel power plant aimed to endurance.

    Actually Karakurt is fast enough to follow other Naval units, for example it's one knot faster than Gorshkov frigate (30 vs 29)

    Karakurts are supposed to either stay close to coast and do local patrols or, should need arise, tag along with larger ships and act as fire support (mini missile farms) 

    In both cases they would stay under air cover of either coastal assets or larger ships

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:36 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:

    Not at all.

    Main definition of a corvette, in Western Navies, is of a ship NOT able to follow a Task Force (max speed not enough to keep pace with frigates and destroyers), mainly tasked with ASW, patrol and (or) ASh missions.

    So Karakurt is not a corvette in the western meaning.

    Its most close relative, in western navies, would be the Braunschweig Class, and that class superceded the Gepard class, a Fast attack Boat class.

    Stereguschy, in turn, are corvettes on steroids, very close to a 70's western frigate with the exeption of a full Diesel power plant aimed to endurance.
    The "Braunschweig Class" is the K130 Class and clearly classified as corvette. K in K130 for "Korvette". The classification in western countries is mostly because of displacement, because displacement offers a lot of room for sensors, weapons, crew etc. No space is wasted! And most corvettes are quick as frigates and destroyers. The F125 "Baden Wüttemberg Class" (frigate on border to destroyer) has the same speed as the K130 "Braunschweig class" (corvette).

    The characteristics of a Fast Attack Boat is to be fast. Karakurt is not really fast. Most fast attack boats have a average displacement of 500 t and normal a speed 20 km/h or more above Karakurt Class. In every all western media, wikipedia, NATO papers etc Karakurt is classified as corvette and not as Fast Attack Boat.


    Last edited by Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:03 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Addition of information)

    Azi

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:37 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Karakurts are supposed to either stay close to coast and do local patrols or, should need arise, tag along with larger ships and act as fire support (mini missile farms) 

    In both cases they would stay under air cover of either coastal assets or larger ships
    Exact!

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:56 pm

    Isos wrote:Stop this argument of "missile boat armed like a destroyer". That's pathetic. The reality is that any Admiral would want destroyer instead of Karakurts even Russians. They have only 8 missiles and are easy target for aviation if they are not covered by other assests like fighter or bigger ship.

    .
    .

    No they don't. Burkes can go from US to Syria and lunch an Attack that would recquire 7 Karakurts and be protected by their own AEGIS.

    How would you lunch a cruise missile Attack so far with karakurts they would be destroyed before reaching the lunch position.

    That's reality
    First of all they have to spot and track the Karakurts. Karakurts Class have reduced radar signature, they have some "stealth qualities" and they are small ships. So to spot a Karakurt out of dozens or hundred civilian ships in the same area could be difficult. If enemy plane comes to near it will be also in danger, because of Pantsir-M.

    No one said that a Karakurt is in the same class like a Burke or Ticonderoga!!! But a volley of 8 Kalibr missile is a serious danger even for a Burke or Ticonderoga. Aegis combat system is not optimized for low flying cruise missile, in this case it is like every other radar system on other ships.

    Kalibr have greater range than Harpoon or Tomahawk (AS variant). The only western weapon that will have a greater range is LRASM, but it's still in development.

    No one said that Karakurt go out to hunt Burkes and Co. far away from Russia, somewhere in in the middle of a ocean. Karakurt have only a endurance of 2 weeks or so. But if enemy ships come close to Russian coast in Baltic Sea or Black Sea, they can face real danger from Karakurt. And it's a joker for retaliation against land targets.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:01 pm


    The "Braunschweig Class" is the K130 Class and clearly classified as corvette. K in K130 for "Korvette". The classification in western countries is mostly because of displacement, because displacement offers a lot of room for sensors, weapons, crew etc. No space is wasted! And most corvettes are quick as frigates and destroyers. The F125 "Baden Wüttemberg Class" (frigate on border to destroyer) has the same speed as the K130 "Braunschweig class" (corvette).

    The characteristics of a Fast Attack Boat is to be fast. Karakurt is not really fast. Most fast attack boats have a average displacement of 500 t and normal a speed 20 km/h or more above Karakurt Class. In every all western media, wikipedia, NATO papers etc Karakurt is classified as corvette and not as Fast Attack Boat.[/quote]

    Nope. "K" means simply "Kampfschiff", i.e. "fighting ship".

    Al media reportig K meaning Korvette, even german media, are simply wrong, or better to say it's a posthomously applied meaning.

    For a comparison, the future german frigates are named in code MKS-180, with MKS meaning Mehrzweckkampfschiff, Mutirole Fighting Ship.

    Actually, in the german Navy they (K-130) are not even classified as "ship", but as "boat", and they were conceived as successors of the Gepard class attack boats.

    Even the officer in command o has a rank typical of small vessels, not of a "real" ship.

    And the relatively low speed was conceived because in the narrow waters they were destined to operate in, it was deemed of low priority, while far greater emphasys was given to ECM, CIWS and sensors, because air attacks were deemed to be by far the main threat to counter.

    It happened that following the end of the Cod War, their intended missions, sea interdition in Gulf of Finland and Baltic Sea, disappeared and the german Navy tried to employ them in roles typical of a corvette, with little success not only for thir teething problems, but mainly because they were never designed for such missions and are ill suited for long patrols.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:27 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Nope. "K" means simply "Kampfschiff", i.e. "fighting ship".

    Al media reportig K meaning Korvette, even german media, are simply wrong, or better to say it's a posthomously applied meaning.

    For a comparison, the future german frigates are named in code MKS-180, with MKS meaning Mehrzweckkampfschiff, Mutirole Fighting Ship.

    Actually, in the german Navy they (K-130) are not even classified as "ship", but as "boat", and they were conceived as successors of the Gepard class attack boats.
    Complete BULLSHIT! I'm german by the way Wink

    Z xxx -> Zerstörer (destroyer)
    F xxx -> Fregatte (frigate)
    K xxx -> Korvette (corvette)

    ALL other ships in German Navy have simply a class number!

    I qoute german wikipedia about K130...
    K130 - wikipedia wrote:Die Klasse 130[1] (nach dem Typschiff auch Braunschweig-Klasse genannt) ist eine Kriegsschiffklasse der Deutschen Marine. Die bisher fünf Korvetten bilden das 1. Korvettengeschwader im Marinestützpunkt Warnemünde. Der Schiffstyp ersetzt die kleineren Flugkörperschnellboote der Gepard-Klasse (143A) und kann bei weltweiten Einsätzen Aufgaben übernehmen, die zuvor mit höherem Personalaufwand von größeren Einheiten erfüllt wurden.

    I quote english wikipedia...
    K130 - wikipedia wrote:The K130 Braunschweig class (sometimes Korvette 130) is Germany's newest class of ocean-going corvettes. Five ships have replaced the Gepard-class fast attack craft of the German Navy. In October 2016 it was announced that a second batch of five more corvettes is to be procured from 2022-2025.[4] The decision was in response to NATO requirements expecting Germany to provide a total of four corvettes at the highest readiness level for littoral operations by 2018, and with only five corvettes just two can be provided.[5]

    There is no "Kampfschiff" as class in German Navy!!! The new "Mehrzweck Kampfschiff 180" in short MKS 180 is not the class. The new class will be K131 or F126, depending on later classification as corvette OR frigate. The word "Mehrzweck Kampfschiff 180" means only the project name, very like "Project 22800".

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:16 pm


    I wrote that MKS-180 is a code name, with the meaning of the project name, as K-130 was the project name for the Braunschweig class.

    By the way, the Braunschweig have a pennant number starting with F (meaning frigate in NATO coding system), followed by a 2, again as foreseen in the NATO coding system for the German Navy's frigates.

    Still it doesn't make them frigates.

    About calling them corvette, I read first time the definition when Braunschweig was launched, before they were referred as K130 or even Kl. 130 (Kl meaning Klass, I think) without referring them as corvettes, but stating they were intended to replace the previous fast attack boat.

    If I'm wrong, it's my fault, of course.

    But I'm pretty sure they were conceived at start as pimped replacements for attack boats.

    The experiments aimed to deploy them in corvette's typical roles were conducted past their induction in service, with not so satisfatory results.

    For a while it was considered a following, derived class referred to as K-131, to get vessels optimized for a corvette's role, but the project was abandoned given the cuts in the BVM's budget

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:29 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:
    I wrote that MKS-180 is a code name, with the meaning of the project name, as K-130 was the project name for the Braunschweig class.

    By the way, the Braunschweig have a pennant number starting with F (meaning frigate in NATO coding system), followed by a 2, again as foreseen in the NATO coding system for the German Navy's frigates.

    Still it doesn't make them frigates.

    About calling them corvette, I read first time the definition when Braunschweig was launched, before they were referred as K130 or even Kl. 130 (Kl meaning Klass, I think) without referring them as corvettes, but stating they were intended to replace the previous fast attack boat.

    If I'm wrong, it's my fault, of course.

    But I'm pretty sure they were conceived at start as pimped replacements for attack boats.

    The experiments aimed to deploy them in corvette's typical roles were conducted past their induction in service, with not so satisfatory results.

    For a while it was considered a following, derived class referred to as K-131, to get vessels optimized for a corvette's role, but the project was abandoned given the cuts in the BVM's budget
    Ah ok, i understand what you mean with "Kampfschiff"...

    It's only the project name. Classification in German Navy is never "Kampfschiff".

    The K130 is really the replacement for a fast attack boat, the "Gepard Class". But it's much bigger, slower and it's difficult to call it a real replacement, because it's a new ship with a different role.

    The pennant number really classifies the K130 as frigate (corvettes are included as frigates), but with subs where is also confusion...you have S and U...both Suspect But K130 is really a corvette, it's official! Sometimes called only Class 130 without the K, both is correct "Class 130" and Class K130".

    No problem ^^ cu


    Last edited by Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 pm; edited 3 times in total

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:31 pm

    More launch via Balancer
    Video


    And pics











    Azi

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:35 pm

    I love the design! love
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:53 pm

    Νο Pantsir, but 2 x AK-630 instead.


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    Azi

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Azi on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:59 pm

    George1 wrote:Νο Pantsir, but 2 x AK-630 instead.
    Only CIWS? Won't get the future Models Pantsir-M? Suspect
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:19 am

    Pantsir from Unit #3 onwards... but we'll need to wait and see.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:15 pm

    More launch pics at http://foto-i-mir.ru/22800-typhoon-171124/
    Really wondering when they'll get around to saying what those panel radar actually are...
    Its quite amazing how thoroughly Russian sources manage to avoid talking about it Suspect (not that there is much discussion in English sources either)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:24 pm

    They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

    Of course... they are idiots and need to build super carriers and cruisers right now because you want to win arguments against US Navy Strong fanboys.

    It does not make sense for them to build small light powerfully armed vessels, when they could squander their budget on a few super cruisers they have no current need for, now or in the next ten years...

    Why build small capable well equipped vessels that would be useful right now, when they can spend all their money on a few stupid expensive cruisers to fight fucking WWIII so fanboi assholes like you can jizz all over the place about how powerful the Russian navy is.

    Who fucking needs big powerful cruisers right now?

    Certainly not the Russian Navy.

    When was the last time an AEGIS class cruiser actually did anything useful?

    Was it shooting down an unarmed civilian Iranian airbus from Iranian waters?

    Russia is not a blue water navy and would best be served by building lots of smaller ships and support vessels and upgrading their existing vessels to a decent standard before spending all their budget on a few super cruisers just because the US Navy fucken has some.

    Are you retarded?

    What actual function would a super destroyer or cruiser serve the Russian Navy right now or in the next 10 years?

    Border patrol and sea control near her ports is what she needs, not big expensive ships roaming around the world wasting time and money.

    The systems and equipment in these new vessels are standardised and scalable... moving up to larger vessels should not be that much of an issue except in terms of cost..bigger ships are certainly much more capable but right now, operations in Syria don't need cruisers, and operations to protect Russia don't need cruisers either.

    Fighting WWIII will concern SSBNs from the navy... the rest of the navy will be irrelevant.


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    zardof

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  zardof on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They just have to replace their light ships and can't build enough big ships. That's why they build them even if it is a nice ship.

    Of course... they are idiots and need to build super carriers and cruisers right now because you want to win arguments against US Navy Strong fanboys.

    It does not make sense for them to build small light powerfully armed vessels, when they could squander their budget on a few super cruisers they have no current need for, now or in the next ten years...

    Why build small capable well equipped vessels that would be useful right now, when they can spend all their money on a few stupid expensive cruisers to fight fucking WWIII so fanboi assholes like you can jizz all over the place about how powerful the Russian navy is.

    Who fucking needs big powerful cruisers right now?

    Certainly not the Russian Navy.

    When was the last time an AEGIS class cruiser actually did anything useful?

    Was it shooting down an unarmed civilian Iranian airbus from Iranian waters?

    Russia is not a blue water navy and would best be served by building lots of smaller ships and support vessels and upgrading their existing vessels to a decent standard before spending all their budget on a few super cruisers just because the US Navy fucken has some.

    Are you retarded?

    What actual function would a super destroyer or cruiser serve the Russian Navy right now or in the next 10 years?

    Border patrol and sea control near her ports is what she needs, not big expensive ships roaming around the world wasting time and money.

    The systems and equipment in these new vessels are standardised and scalable... moving up to larger vessels should not be that much of an issue except in terms of cost..bigger ships are certainly much more capable but right now, operations in Syria don't need cruisers, and operations to protect Russia don't need cruisers either.

    Fighting WWIII will concern SSBNs from the navy... the rest of the navy will be irrelevant.

    I absolutely agree with you Gary !

    These aviso are very efficient : for the same price and overal performance France have PLG patrol ship with a single ridiculous 20mm gun !!

    Project 21631 first shots with calibr have immediate effect of wildraw all us carrier from gulf and show Caspian sea in not a bathroom but a battleroom were never Nato can go !

    These ships under russian coast umbrella and spread in sufficiant numbers denie access to black sea, baltic sea, Barents and artic, eastern mediterranean sea, Japan sea, Okotsk sea and Bering sea..... This for the price of a patrol boat.

    For one single US cruiser you have 30 Karakurt
    For a single G Ford class you have 433 Karakurt !!!!!

    Russia have no plan to land a strike force and army in America...NATO yes. So these kind of cheap boats are a  very efficient, low cost, dissymetric answer to huge Nato fleet of carrier, cruiser Fregate and destroyer.

    China in comparizon with illimited budget can build a blue water fleet and a huge missile corvette fleet.

    In 10 years time the only safe place will be south atlantic and south pacific for NATO fleet.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:43 pm

    zardof wrote:In 10 years time the only safe place will be south atlantic and south pacific for NATO fleet.

    NATO's submarine fleet can easily block and eliminate the surface vessels of the Black Sea and Baltic fleets of Russia. This won't change in 10 years, even with the addition of non-ASW patrol boats and OPVs. And as long as RuN doesn't invest in frigates and destroyers.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:46 am

    Would like to apologise to Lsos, I was a bit hard and offensive and I didn't need to be so.

    I don't regret what I was saying, just how it was said was rude and personal.


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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Would like to apologise to Lsos, I was a bit hard and offensive and I didn't need to be so.

    I don't regret what I was saying, just how it was said was rude and personal.

    Hahaha its ok I knew that it will make you react lol1

    But I regret that you make me say things I didn t even think avout. Russia needs big ships. Not supercarriers or super lider (i never thouht they need something like that). But they need some destroyers with at least s300 on them. Small ships are good but can t replace destroyers. A project 21956 would cost maybe as much as 2 gorshkov because they don t use new tech so they could build them easily.

    They have nato on the west, japan china and north corea on the east and retarded terorist on the south with Iranian ballistic program still alive. They need ship with powerdull radars to keep an eye on them. Ground based radar are fixed while ship based s300 can go around those countries and control them.

    Its not just a fan boy discussion about WWIII. Their ground based radar are already watching those countries.

    Bit its not really the discussion topic so I stop here.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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