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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:22 am

    franco wrote:An official picture of the new 22800... sort of   Laughing

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12072355@egNews

    Here is the best version of that pic that I could find:





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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:28 am

    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

    Wondering how the Karakurt at 800 tonnes could be better at sea then the 950 tonne Buyan-M? And the only way it replaces the 11356 is in the 8 Caliber missiles. My overall assessment of what the author is saying is that it all sounds great but he will wait to see.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:53 pm

    franco wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

    Wondering how the Karakurt at 800 tonnes could be better at sea then the 950 tonne Buyan-M? And the only way it replaces the 11356 is in the 8 Caliber missiles. My overall assessment of what the author is saying is that it all sounds great but he will wait to see.

    One wonders what the 22800 is bringing to the table that the 22160 doesn't? The 22160 will also be armed with Kalibr, with better endurance and seaworthiness than the 21631. Seems unnecessary to make both the 22160 and the 22800.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:48 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    franco wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

    Wondering how the Karakurt at 800 tonnes could be better at sea then the 950 tonne Buyan-M? And the only way it replaces the 11356 is in the 8 Caliber missiles. My overall assessment of what the author is saying is that it all sounds great but he will wait to see.

    One wonders what the 22800 is bringing to the table that the 22160 doesn't? The 22160 will also be armed with Kalibr, with better endurance and seaworthiness than the 21631. Seems unnecessary to make both the 22160 and the 22800.

    i agree. Too many types of similar vessels. Unless 22160 is optioned for FSB Coast Guard Service (a patrol ship clearly)


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:12 pm


    22160 is dedicated patrol vessel. Long range but lightly armed. It can be used as combat ship in case of emergency but that is not it's intended role. It is something that does trivial work like anti-piracy so that more capable ships will not be tied down needlessly.

    Russia has Udaloi class destroyers hunting Somali pirates ATM. Pretty wasteful if you ask me.

    22800 is ocean going Buyan class. Original Buyan is pretty good but it is still just a river ship. 22800 will be doing same thing as Buyan but will not be restricted to Black Sea.

    Russian Navy has huge amount of Soviet era missile boats that need replacement. They also carry fewer missiles and do not have land attack capability.

    Buyans are still good enough for Caspian and Black Sea (that is why they stay in production) but 22800 is needed for oceans. They will also have lower radar signature from what I can tell.

    And biggest reason of all, shipyards need work until delivery of local frigate engines starts. Without engine problems they would just stick with frigates.

    --------

    22800 are also built at Pella shipyard. Did Pella build any military ships before now other than speedboats? This looks like a step up for them.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  max steel on Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:52 am

    These ships named Uragan and Typhoon are two first ships of what is promised to be 18 ships class. Displacing 800 tons they are more sea-worthy than notorious Byan platforms and, of course, are carriers of no less notorious Kalibr and Onyx missiles. First two hulls, as it seems now, will carry no missile Air Defense complex, albeit further ships in class will carry what is known today as navalized version of Pantsir gun-missile AD system, which will give these ships a very respectable close-range (18-20 km) air defense capability.

    All this is not good news for US Navy and its, especially so, Littoral community. For US Navy, which became a hostage of sorts of its own magnificent and, arguably, unrivaled combat history which is dominated by large combatants (traveling 1 st Class), the whole notion of a 800-ton ship outgunning, in missile exchange, its own much larger and much too expensive combatants is anathema. Russian Navy will network these ships, making Russia's littoral impenetrable and will deploy these ships, in a good ol' Soviet tradition of 5th Operational Squadron, to Mediterranean, either as a part of Ship Strike Group (KUG) centered around larger combatants with vastly superior ASW and AD, or as an autonomous group. It is clear, however, that such a platform, albeit with "degraded" electronics and sensor suite has an enormous export potential, thus opening the door to export versions of Kalibr and Onyx missiles. This could be a game changer in many littorals, especially of the nations which do have some semblance of real air forces and AD systems.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:24 pm

    Two small missile ship project will be laid 22800 in 2016

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160121/1362756206.html

    Bookmark two small-size missile ships of project 22800 is planned in 2016, told reporters Deputy chief of RF Navy Alexander Fedotenkov.

    "The plans for the 2016 plan tab 15 warships, boats and ships. Among them, the laying of two small-size missile ships of project 22800, corvettes of project 20380, 22160 patrol ships", — he said.

    The fedotenkov also said that plans are in the principal tab of the new patrol vessel of ice class of the project 23550, combining the qualities of a tugboat, icebreaker and patrol ship.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:50 pm


    Maybe this is not dated...


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:40 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Maybe this is not dated...


    Polit Russia a mouthpiece of Kremlin propaganda only ABC/CNN/BBC tell you the truth Surprised)

    As for corvette, I am a bit worried that no ASW is foreseen however if modular equipment then maybe they will have either ASW (Paket ) or AAD (Redut? ) . ASW is important if you go outside Caspian - not to chase subs but not to be "eaten" by one.

    BTW I love when futuristic shapes graphics merge with good ol´ 2x76mm turret Surprised)

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:29 am

    I don't speak or read Russian but the graphic showing what appears to be red circles extending from the Black Sea and Caspian Sea for thousands of kms over the region suggests it can carry Kalibre... which means it should also be able to carry Onyx and also the anti sub weapons the UKSK launcher can carry.

    That should be perfectly adequate armament for the vessel.

    It also carries a helicopter which should allow it to deal with Submarines at extended distances from the vessel.


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:59 am

    GarryB wrote:I don't speak or read Russian but the graphic showing what appears to be red circles extending from the Black Sea and Caspian Sea for thousands of kms over the region suggests it can carry Kalibre... which means it should also be able to carry Onyx and also the anti sub weapons the UKSK launcher can carry.

    That should be perfectly adequate armament for the vessel.

    It also carries a helicopter which should allow it to deal with Submarines at extended distances from the vessel.

    My understanding is that modularity assumes ASW is an option but did not specify if ASW or ASchM or ASW and ASchM. If helicopter then my educated guess would be Ka-226.

    BTW Visby is like 650t class and proves you can put in small ship relatively nice armament.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:48 am

    I would suspect it would be operated in two different distinct situations... where there is no sub threat and where there is.

    In the former case it is fine as it is, and in the latter it would need support from other vessels.

    Considering it is a relatively short range coastal vessel then shore based sonar arrays could be used for off platform targeting and it could use its organic helo in support.

    Its ability to have a couple of shipping crates in its rear loaded with 2,500km range land attack missiles makes it a very versatile platform for all sorts of missions.

    A while back I mentioned that long range weapons on a small cheap platform is a force multiplier... even if the vessel can't detect air targets at 400km or ground targets at 2,500km... it is not fighting on its own... both weapon types don't need the launch platform to detect their targets... just pass the target data and launch and the weapons will do the rest.

    Obvious benefits include that you don't need scaled weapons... ie you don't need a wide range of land attack missiles for different sized platforms... you just make one type and deploy it rather more widely than if you had only big ones.

    Fitting long range SAMs and LACMs to small numbers vessels means more ready to fire weapons in times of conflict... and smaller more vulnerable vessels don't need to get closer to the enemy to launch an attack.

    It is easier to get 10 Corvettes together to support an attack than to have one cruiser sized vessel in every theatre.

    10 corvettes operating separately are harder to deal with than one cruiser on its own... of course 10 corvettes and 10 frigates and 5 destroyers and a cruiser and a carrier is even harder to deal with.


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:22 pm


    Guys, that video is just fan art, real ship will look nothing like that and will not have helicopter hangar. At best it will have helipad (big maybe) but that is it.

    Just look at this. Gun, 8 Kalibrs, CIWS and AA system later on. Not much room for anything else. Video is way off the mark:





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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:00 pm

    Some conclusions on 22800 project:

    1. It is an evolution of Project 12300 scorpion class
    2. It is a replacement for Project 21631 with longer range (3.000nm from 2.300nm for Buyan-M)
    3. At no case it is a replacement for Project 11356 or 20380 ships


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue May 03, 2016 3:43 am

    On the 10th of May, a project 22800 Karakurt class missile ship will be laid down in Crimea:

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201605021703-tmi4.htm

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 03, 2016 5:00 am

    TheArmenian wrote:On the 10th of May, a project 22800 Karakurt class missile ship will be laid down in Crimea:

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201605021703-tmi4.htm

    Well this is big, Crimea is back in business and already building proper warships. They are about to outdo entire ukrop naval shipbuilding in the past three decades.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  marat on Tue May 03, 2016 9:58 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:On the 10th of May, a project 22800 Karakurt class missile ship will be laid down in Crimea:

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201605021703-tmi4.htm

    Well this is big, Crimea is back in business and already building proper warships. They are about to outdo entire ukrop naval shipbuilding in the past three decades.
    I just hope that Crimean shipyars will do better then those on far east. This is really good news.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  medo on Tue May 03, 2016 9:58 pm

    So, Black Sea fleet will get Karakurt missile corvettes for anti-ship role and to replace old Nanuchka and Tarantul missile corvettes. I think this is proving my oppinion, that Buyan-M corvettes are actually new class of land attack cruise missiles corvettes for conventional or nuclear strikes on ground targets. This ship was now battle tested and proven to be effective. This will be an interesting combination of Buyan-M and Karakurt corvettes in Black Sea and in Mediterranean Sea.

    I hope Crimean shipyard will also build Karakurt corvettes for Caspian fleet.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 03, 2016 11:10 pm

    medo wrote:So, Black Sea fleet will get Karakurt missile corvettes for anti-ship role and to replace old Nanuchka and Tarantul missile corvettes. I think this is proving my oppinion, that Buyan-M corvettes are actually new class of land attack cruise missiles corvettes for conventional or nuclear strikes on ground targets. This ship was now battle tested and proven to be effective. This will be an interesting combination of Buyan-M and Karakurt corvettes in Black Sea and in Mediterranean Sea.

    I hope Crimean shipyard will also build Karakurt corvettes for Caspian fleet.

    I don't think that these will be going to Black Sea, North Fleet is more likely. They are just being built in Crimea. Black Sea Fleet will be getting additional 6 Buyan-M's. (already ordered)

    Both Buyan-M and 22800 are same class of ships (missile boats to be more accurate) but 22800 is proper ocean going vessel. Buyan-M is modified river ship, more than good enough for Black Sea and Med but not beyond.

    Their primary purpose would be land attack, not anti-ship combat. Other than that they will be patrolling the littoral zone where they will be covered with Kilo subs and land based AA systems and naval aircraft.

    Once Buyans and 22800s are built in sufficient numbers other corvettes, frigates and larger ships could be passing down land attack tasks to them. For example, Gorshkov and Grigorevich frigates now have 8 land attack and 8 anti-ship missiles but later it would make sense to switch to 16 anti-ship missiles because for Russian Navy cruise missile strikes against land targets are exception rather than the rule.
    And 90% of likely land targets could be hit by Buyans and 22800s with Kalibrs without even leaving ports or traveling too far from their "safe zone".

    This would enable proper warships (corvettes, frigates, etc...) to fully focus on their primary task (anti-ship and anti-sub ops) and if need arises for land attacks with cruise missiles then Buyans and 22800s can just tag along with larger ships and act as "missile trucks" all the while being under anti-air and anti-sub cover provided by those larger vessels.

    Basically just follow rest of the fleet, launch Kalibrs and head home. I think this might be the reason why 22800 is lighter than Buyan but still uses same engine, it needs the extra speed to keep up with corvettes and frigates.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Tue May 03, 2016 11:23 pm

    medo wrote: that Buyan-M corvettes are actually new class of land attack cruise missiles corvettes for conventional or nuclear strikes on ground targets. This ship was now battle tested and proven to be effective. This will be an interesting combination of Buyan-M and Karakurt corvettes in Black Sea and in Mediterranean Sea.

    I hope Crimean shipyard will also build Karakurt corvettes for Caspian fleet.

    Any ship that carries Kalibr can do this job. If you have Buyans for land atttack and Karakurts for anti ship role, it is not a good combination as the ennemy will know their role. If you have just one type of corvette for both roles, they will not and the mass production of one type makes the ship cheaper.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 04, 2016 10:41 am

    Yes, the purpose of the UKSK system is that any ship fitted with it can be anti ship or anti sub or land attack...

    Even if not fitted with its own sonar, the Sigma battle management and communications and data sharing system would enable the data from all nearby sonar equipped vessels and even satellites and aircraft and submarines and even land or shore based and under sea listening arrays can be combined to give even the smallest corvette data on underwater threats to allow a mach 2.5 ballistic rocket to deliver a homing torpedo in a few minutes to anywhere within 40km of the vessel.


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  medo on Wed May 04, 2016 4:37 pm

    It's true, that in UKSK you could place many different missiles from Onyx to Calibr with its anti-ship, anti-sub and LACM variants. But which missiles ship could use depend on its fire control system. Gorshkov and Grigorovich frigates have all needed sensors from sonars to anti-ship radars and data links to use all type of missiles. Buyan-M doesn't have sonar or anti-ship radar, so it could not use Calibr missiles in anti-ship or anti-sub variants, but only in LACM variant to strike ground targets. Karakurt will be equipped with anti-ship radar to detect surface targets for anti-ship missiles, so it will be mostly used in this role. But of course, if Ru NAVY will need more cruise missiles for attacks on ground targets, Karakurts will be armed with them as well, what means Karakurts will also represent nuclear strike capability and could patrol with 4 LACM and 4 anti-ship missiles. I'm not sure if Karakurt will be equipped with sonar to use anti-sub version of Calibr missiles.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 05, 2016 12:39 pm

    You clearly didn't read my post... even Buyan has Sigma C4IR system so even if it cannot generate sonar data itself it can get it off platform by sea bed sonar arrays or even other submarines or surface vessels or aircraft.

    it doesn't need to find the sub itself... just its approximate location and then it can launch a mach 2 anti sub ballistic rocket to deliver a torpedo 40km to the subs location...


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 05, 2016 12:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:You clearly didn't read my post... even Buyan has Sigma C4IR system so even if it cannot generate sonar data itself it can get it off platform by sea bed sonar arrays or even other submarines or surface vessels or aircraft.

    it doesn't need to find the sub itself... just its approximate location and then it can launch a mach 2 anti sub ballistic rocket to deliver a torpedo 40km to the subs location...

    and if it is too far from other ships...II WW class torpedo can put it down. NATO has advantage in number of subs against Russia not to mention robotic sub-drones...

    ASROC torpedo cannot defent you as Paket can in self defence mode. This is my point,

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