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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:31 am

    Laying down of the first two Project 22800 warships will happen at the Pella shipyard on the 24th of December.
    The names will be Uragan and Taifun. The ships will enter service in 2017 and 2018.

    The news will appear in the press shortly.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:03 pm

    i wonder whether is needed a new type of corvette since there is Project 21631 and Project 20380/2


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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:12 pm

    George1 wrote:i wonder whether is needed a new type of corvette since there is Project 21631 and Project 20380/2

    They halted Project 21631 production apparently, after naturally those already layed are finished. Project 20380/2 seems to be in problems to me.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:28 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:i wonder whether is needed a new type of corvette since there is Project 21631 and Project 20380/2

    They halted Project 21631 production apparently, after naturally those already layed are finished. Project 20380/2 seems to be in problems to me.

    Project 21631 (Buyan class) were supposed end production and be replaced with new class (Sarsar). Buyans are short range and not good for ocean conditions.

    Project 20380 (Steregushchy corvette) was dead-end from the get go.  22800 would be efficient replacement for that disaster especially because it would be built by several shipyards.

    It would be nice if MoD would finally post a picture of this thing... angry Curiosity is killing me....


    Last edited by PapaDragon on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:29 pm


    Here is the article:

    Russia Laying Down 2 New-Gen Corvettes Armed With Kalibr Cruise Missiles

    The ships will be armed with Kalibr cruise missiles and will enter the ranks of the Russian Navy in 2017-2018.


    http://sputniknews.com/military/20151223/1032190381/russia-navy-kalibr-corvettes.html

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The first two new-generation corvettes for the Russian Navy will be laid down on Thursday in St. Petersburg, Navy spokesman Capt. 1st Rank Igor Dygalo said Wednesday.

    "Two new-generation small-size missile ships of Project 22800 will be laid at the Pella shipyard in St. Petersburg on December 24," Dygalo told reporters.

    He added that both corvettes were expected to join the national fleet in 2017-2018 and would be equipped with high-precision missiles and advanced artillery systems. They will have a displacement of 800 metric tons and a maximum speed of over 30 knots.

    "It is planned that in the short term, various Russian shipyards will build over 10 Project 22800 small-size missile ships for the Russian Navy," the spokesman said, citing Deputy Commander of the Russian Navy Rear Adm. Viktor Bursuk.

    In July, Navy Commander Adm. Viktor Chirkov said that Project 22800 corvettes would replace Project 11356 frigates in the Russian Navy since the latter were to be equipped with Ukraine-built gas turbine engines that Kiev failed to deliver, while engines for the former would be produced in Russia.


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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Project 21631 (Buyan class) were supposed end production and be replaced with new class (Sarsar). Buyans are short range and not good for ocean conditions.

    Project 22800 will have a displacement of 800 tons so it will not be suitable also for ocean conditions

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Project 20380 (Steregushchy corvette) was dead-end from the get go. 22800 would be efficient replacement for that disaster especially because it would be built by several shipyards.
    .

    3 mores ships laid down in 2015 however


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    franco

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:07 pm

    George1 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Project 21631 (Buyan class) were supposed end production and be replaced with new class (Sarsar). Buyans are short range and not good for ocean conditions.

    Project 22800 will have a displacement of 800 tons so it will not be suitable also for ocean conditions

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Project 20380 (Steregushchy corvette) was dead-end from the get go.  22800 would be efficient replacement for that disaster especially because it would be built by several shipyards.
    .

    3 mores ships laid down in 2015 however

    Comment from the announcement was that it had the weapons of the Buyan class, but with much better ocean going capabilities. I know...right?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:12 pm



    Τhis is an image of Project 22800. I wonder where are the kalibr launchers

    http://flotprom.ru/2015/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B035/


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:14 pm


    ^^^ I think that is an old pic of unrelated concept. Plus, it is obviously lot smaller than Buyan class.







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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:05 am

    George1 wrote:

    Τhis is an image of Project 22800. I wonder where are the kalibr launchers

    http://flotprom.ru/2015/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B035/

    Thats the proj 12300 "Scorpion" missile boat concept that Rosboronexport was proposing for export but didn't find any customers. Its about 460T displacement so smaller than a Buyan (original design). IIRC it was intended to carry a pair of twin Yakhont or Uran launcher.

    I think florprom.ru are using old stock images to fill in blank space?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:38 pm

    This is "Pella" shipyard website. Still no reference or any illustration of the ship

    http://www.pellaship.ru/shipbuilding


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    ult

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  ult on Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:33 pm

    Pella will build 7 ships.



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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:24 pm


    First two will be called "Hurricane" and "Typhoon". 18 are planned.

    Basically an improved Buyan with the ability to operate in Oceans and Arctic. Speed 30 knots. I guess also longer range and endurance (or not).

    8 Kalibr/Oniks missiles, 100mm gun, 2 CIVS and improved AA system compared to Buyan. Article assumes it will be Pantsir.

    More in article (in Russian)

    http://lenta.ru/news/2015/12/24/new/
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:28 pm

    So it will be a replacement for both project 11356 and Buyan-M which have foreign engines


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:43 pm

    George1 wrote:So it will be a replacement for both project 11356 and Buyan-M which have foreign engines

    Well it is a replacement for Buyan definitely. As for 11356, Gorshkov class is their "replacement" since 11356 were originally stop-gap for Gorshkov class, but because of engine issues they have been delayed until local engines enter production.

    22800 is something to keep Gorshkov's and 11356's shipyards busy until frigate engines come along. Afterwards Pella and Zelenortsk should fully take over from there with 22800.
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:08 am


    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M"

    On Thursday, the shipyard "Pella" (St. Petersburg) were solemnly laid two small missile ship (MRK) new project 22800 "Karakurt." The main advantage of these very modest in size, but powerful enough combat units (with a displacement of only 800 tons) - will be installed on each of the eight high-precision cruise missiles, long-range "Caliber-NK" which have already proved their effectiveness in Syria. Another set of weapons - for the same number of supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles "Onyx" (firing range - up to 500 kilometers).

    Missile combat capability "Black Widow" is not exhausted. Yet they will be the 100-mm or 76-mm universal automatic artillery, air defense missile-gun complex "Carapace M" or "Palm." The length of each ship - 60 meters, width - 9 meters draft - 4 meters. Speed ​​- up to 30 knots. Cruising range - up to 2,500 miles. From which it follows that prospective IRAs, as well as their predecessors of the project in 1234, to be used mainly in the area near the sea.

    Order of the Chief of the Navy, both the future of the ship have already received the terrible name - "Typhoon" and "Hurricane." It is in the tradition of our famous "battalions of bad weather", which are based in the past decade and accounted for are small missile ships the previous generation - "cloud", "Storm", "Mirage", "Roll forward", "swell" ...

    "Typhoon" and "Hurricane" in the Battle of the Black Sea Fleet in turn expect to enter 2017 and 2018. Total planned construction of a series of ten such IRAs. In addition to the Black Sea, they are waiting for, as stated by the General Staff of the Navy, the Baltic and Pacific fleets. Northern Fleet reason in that list was not. Perhaps because there, in the harsh conditions of the Arctic, going forward or notebook and the completion of more impressive dimensions.

    In short, it would seem, in all respects good news. Our sailors have long been waiting for at least some replenish their heavily outdated formations of surface ships. But there are some circumstances that suggest that the new Russian small rocket ship is not so simple.

    A dozen of even the most remarkable RTOs "Karakurt" not even four, but only three Russian fleet - is very small. Total of three, but somewhere - four units in the huge sea theater of operations. What is it, for example, to the Pacific Ocean? Especially when you consider that far from their bases like little ships alone to fight simply can not. Otherwise, with their not very strong air defense system on the sea or ocean floor can not be earlier than have time to shoot their own "Caliber" and "Onyx".

    Of course, the problem of understanding in the Main Staff of the Navy. And recently there have built a completely different plans. In any case, in the summer of last year, Russian Navy Commander Admiral Viktor Chirkov, responding to a question about the size of a future series of "Black Widow", said clearly: "A minimum of 18 units."

    But then, apparently intervened strict uncle of the Ministry of Finance and began to cut to the quick shipbuilding program. Given svirepeyuschego economic crisis, well, if they have done this with "Black Widow" for the last time.

    Second. One of the main shortcomings of the Soviet Navy has always been raznotipe warships designed to solve the same problems. For example, at one time the neighboring berths 7th operative squadron and the 2nd Division in Severomorsk ASW were large anti-submarine ships of projects 1134a, 1155, 57a, 61 and 1135 (only from the beginning of the 90s the last two were called guard). Built at different times, they had a very different weapons, radar and sonar stations, many other instruments and mechanisms. That entailed a complex tabletop planning, expensive and unwieldy logistics, a huge range of lubricants and ZIPov simply immense coastal training facilities.

    Our opponents are likely never did. The US Navy if we begin a series of cruisers, destroyers or frigates, the rivet them in the set, and "as a blueprint." For example, the frigate "Oliver Perry" from 1977 to 1989, the Americans had built 51 destroyers type "Arleigh Burke" from 1988 to the present time have made 62 and going to come down to the water still 13.

    We in the Soviet times the money on the Navy did not regret not considered, so could not afford any extravagance. But now something? Now, why do we need so many projects of the same small missile ships?

    Well, we derive the brackets built in the Soviet Union in 1234 MRC Project "The Gadfly" of various modifications with antiship cruise missiles P-120. In the end, they are running out of time, in service to all of our four fleets of ships just a dozen and they need a replacement.

    She seemed to be on its way in the form of small missile ships of the project 21631 "Buyan-M." Ever, three of which ("Uglich", "Svijazhsk" and "Great Ustyug") on October 7 for the first time in the history of the Caspian Sea triumphantly hit with cruise missiles "Caliber-NK" on targets in Syria. "Brawlers-M" around the world were immediately recognized as a very successful and modern: no one but we have not yet managed to cram so terrible (in fact - a strategic!) The weapon in such a tight ship's hull.

    In addition to "Uglich", "Svijazhsk" and "Great Ustyug" Zelenodolsk floated even their colleagues - small missile ships "Serpukhov" and "Green Dol". Both are sent to Sevastopol, we have just completed a test and entered the Battle of the Black Sea Fleet. And on the wall at the Sebastopol Mine enemy in Syria, "caliber" is not shot out, apparently because firing in this case would have to be through unfriendly to us recently Turkish territory.

    But in Zelenodolsk for the Black Sea continue to build four "Buyan-M" - "Vishny Volochek", "Orekhovo-", "Ingushetia" and "Graivoron." Moreover, "Ingushetia" the plan is to get the fleet in 2017, and "Graivoron" - in 2018. That is precisely when in St. Petersburg are going to finish building laid out there this week, "Typhoon" and "Hurricane." With the same eight cruise missiles "Caliber-NK" and "Onyx" on each. For the same 41-th brigade of missile boats BSF.

    Once again stepping on the same rake? Maybe it's worth determine what needs Black Sea Fleet - "brawlers-M" or more seaworthy, according to baseline characteristics, "Black Widow"? And the construction of any series for savings stop? Well, or severely limit, the remaining money by investing in the most suitable ships? Given the fact that "brawlers-M" was originally intended only for swimming in shallow Volga and in the Caspian Sea. And for this, even equipped with water jets, which no one would never have occurred to establish IRAs if someone presupposes that they will have to plow the stormy Black and Mediterranean seas, and not much more affectionate Volga and the Caspian Sea.

    And one more thing. How do we do if there is proven in combat and struck the world of "Buyan-M" suddenly took another and "Black Widow"? Moreover, he took a rush job? For the same Chirkov just a few months ago, I promised to bookmark the brain and the first serial MRK project only in 2016. Engineers and designers with the preparation as it became clear today, were forced to meet, at least for a few months before. Why did it happen?

    The thing is that, apparently, bad our business with the construction of six frigates of Project 11356 (so-called "admiral's Series") in the Kaliningrad factory "Amber". The sanctions imposed by Ukraine, led to the fact that it built in the city of Nikolayev turbine engines received only half of the planned for launch vehicles ("Admiral Grigorovich", "Admiral Essen" and "Admiral Makarov"). More on three frigates ("Admiral Butakov", "Admiral Istomin" and "Admiral Kornilov") will have to set their own, native. That must also create almost from scratch. For such complex naval units in Russia never did.

    Propulsion Engineering from Rybinsk and St. Petersburg are doing their best, but before 2020, with a promise not to keep up with replacing. An appropriately delayed and the last three "Admiral." Here is their something and decided as soon as possible to replace the "Black Widow." Small missile ships, in which everything down to the last rivet Russia, to bring to mind can be much faster than the frigates, which are four times more displacement.

    Actually, this is Admiral Chirkov and said July 1 this year: "To help us keep pace with the construction of the ship, to replace, for example, Project 11356 proceed to the construction of a new series - small missile ships, corvettes with cruise missiles on board - Project 22800 ".

    Fine, but how much will complete the replacement? The extent to which small warship near sea area in general is able to replace a large frigate built for the ocean? Neither of seaworthiness, or in range and duration of swimming, nor on electronic and anti-aircraft weaponry, they are not comparable. Antisubmarine weapons to the "Black Widow" is not at all. And it is on frigates. There are even ASW helicopter.

    A similar one thing: Missiles. That for him everything is done.

    On missile frigate of Project 11356 "Caliber-NK" exactly the same as on the "Black Widow" or "Buyan-M" - eight. And considering that the maximum range of 2.5 thousand kilometers virtually any target in Europe or the Middle East, these cruise missiles can hit without leaving the Sevastopol bay, nautical, cruising range and other performance characteristics highly leveled.

    So, it may be extremely costly capital ships long-distance oceanic zone to us now and does not need it? Can Do "Black Widow" and "Buyan"?

    We can not do. Not least because that in addition to Europe and the Middle East in the world there is still America. So replacing still get time.
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:13 am

    An official picture of the new 22800... sort of Laughing

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12072355@egNews
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:22 am

    franco wrote:An official picture of the new 22800... sort of   Laughing

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12072355@egNews

    Here is the best version of that pic that I could find:




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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:28 am

    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

    Wondering how the Karakurt at 800 tonnes could be better at sea then the 950 tonne Buyan-M? And the only way it replaces the 11356 is in the 8 Caliber missiles. My overall assessment of what the author is saying is that it all sounds great but he will wait to see.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:53 pm

    franco wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

    Wondering how the Karakurt at 800 tonnes could be better at sea then the 950 tonne Buyan-M? And the only way it replaces the 11356 is in the 8 Caliber missiles. My overall assessment of what the author is saying is that it all sounds great but he will wait to see.

    One wonders what the 22800 is bringing to the table that the 22160 doesn't? The 22160 will also be armed with Kalibr, with better endurance and seaworthiness than the 21631. Seems unnecessary to make both the 22160 and the 22800.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:48 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    franco wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:

    "Karakurt" against "Buyan-M".........


    Franco what is the final verdict on this ship according to that article(if you know)? That machine translation is disastrous.

    I assume they tried to say that 22800 is dead end or waste of money, am I right?

    Wondering how the Karakurt at 800 tonnes could be better at sea then the 950 tonne Buyan-M? And the only way it replaces the 11356 is in the 8 Caliber missiles. My overall assessment of what the author is saying is that it all sounds great but he will wait to see.

    One wonders what the 22800 is bringing to the table that the 22160 doesn't? The 22160 will also be armed with Kalibr, with better endurance and seaworthiness than the 21631. Seems unnecessary to make both the 22160 and the 22800.

    i agree. Too many types of similar vessels. Unless 22160 is optioned for FSB Coast Guard Service (a patrol ship clearly)


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:12 pm


    22160 is dedicated patrol vessel. Long range but lightly armed. It can be used as combat ship in case of emergency but that is not it's intended role. It is something that does trivial work like anti-piracy so that more capable ships will not be tied down needlessly.

    Russia has Udaloi class destroyers hunting Somali pirates ATM. Pretty wasteful if you ask me.

    22800 is ocean going Buyan class. Original Buyan is pretty good but it is still just a river ship. 22800 will be doing same thing as Buyan but will not be restricted to Black Sea.

    Russian Navy has huge amount of Soviet era missile boats that need replacement. They also carry fewer missiles and do not have land attack capability.

    Buyans are still good enough for Caspian and Black Sea (that is why they stay in production) but 22800 is needed for oceans. They will also have lower radar signature from what I can tell.

    And biggest reason of all, shipyards need work until delivery of local frigate engines starts. Without engine problems they would just stick with frigates.

    --------

    22800 are also built at Pella shipyard. Did Pella build any military ships before now other than speedboats? This looks like a step up for them.
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    max steel

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  max steel on Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:52 am

    These ships named Uragan and Typhoon are two first ships of what is promised to be 18 ships class. Displacing 800 tons they are more sea-worthy than notorious Byan platforms and, of course, are carriers of no less notorious Kalibr and Onyx missiles. First two hulls, as it seems now, will carry no missile Air Defense complex, albeit further ships in class will carry what is known today as navalized version of Pantsir gun-missile AD system, which will give these ships a very respectable close-range (18-20 km) air defense capability.

    All this is not good news for US Navy and its, especially so, Littoral community. For US Navy, which became a hostage of sorts of its own magnificent and, arguably, unrivaled combat history which is dominated by large combatants (traveling 1 st Class), the whole notion of a 800-ton ship outgunning, in missile exchange, its own much larger and much too expensive combatants is anathema. Russian Navy will network these ships, making Russia's littoral impenetrable and will deploy these ships, in a good ol' Soviet tradition of 5th Operational Squadron, to Mediterranean, either as a part of Ship Strike Group (KUG) centered around larger combatants with vastly superior ASW and AD, or as an autonomous group. It is clear, however, that such a platform, albeit with "degraded" electronics and sensor suite has an enormous export potential, thus opening the door to export versions of Kalibr and Onyx missiles. This could be a game changer in many littorals, especially of the nations which do have some semblance of real air forces and AD systems.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:24 pm

    Two small missile ship project will be laid 22800 in 2016

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160121/1362756206.html

    Bookmark two small-size missile ships of project 22800 is planned in 2016, told reporters Deputy chief of RF Navy Alexander Fedotenkov.

    "The plans for the 2016 plan tab 15 warships, boats and ships. Among them, the laying of two small-size missile ships of project 22800, corvettes of project 20380, 22160 patrol ships", — he said.

    The fedotenkov also said that plans are in the principal tab of the new patrol vessel of ice class of the project 23550, combining the qualities of a tugboat, icebreaker and patrol ship.

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