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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:24 pm

    miroslav wrote:I think that it's the "I can't see a corvette." that's making the big problem here. The ship is shaped/designed in a way that many FACs and large patrol boats are, visually and that makes sense in this case, but do not forget the actual size, just look at the person in the picture. The Karakut is 6-7m longer than Tarantul or Nancutka. Let's not forget the fact that there is nothing in the class that has the same firepower.

    The German Braunschweig class (classics example of a new western corvette) has only 4 dedicated anti-ship missiles a gun and AA missiles, which will be remedied and overshadowed after the Pantsir module is installed. Point is, the western counterparts can't make a strategic contributor to the fight the Russian ones can.

    That's because western counterparts rely on delivering such strategic force to their Air Force (NATO can get the Med, Atlantic, Baltic, North Seas covered on every corner just using core air bases), heavy frigates/destroyers, SSNs/SSGNs, LHDs and aircraft carriers. Same applies for Israel in its own part of the Med.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miroslav on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:03 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miroslav wrote:I think that it's the "I can't see a corvette." that's making the big problem here. The ship is shaped/designed in a way that many FACs and large patrol boats are, visually and that makes sense in this case, but do not forget the actual size, just look at the person in the picture. The Karakut is 6-7m longer than Tarantul or Nancutka. Let's not forget the fact that there is nothing in the class that has the same firepower.

    The German Braunschweig class (classics example of a new western corvette) has only 4 dedicated anti-ship missiles a gun and AA missiles, which will be remedied and overshadowed after the Pantsir module is installed. Point is, the western counterparts can't make a strategic contributor to the fight the Russian ones can.

    That's because western counterparts rely on delivering such strategic force to their Air Force (NATO can get the Med, Atlantic, Baltic, North Seas covered on every corner just using core air bases), heavy frigates/destroyers, SSNs/SSGNs, LHDs and aircraft carriers. Same applies for Israel in its own part of the Med.

    That's only partially try, if you count out the Muricans, how many NATO countries actually have frigates and destroyers that can launch long range land attack missiles not to mention a supersonic anti-ship missiles, all from the same ship.

    I am not trying to make the Karakuts more that they are, but a battle group of 4 of them covered by maybe two frigates for air defense can launch a serious attack on any other NATO group consisting out of much larger ships, theoretically at least.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:09 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    ult wrote:Getting ready.

    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.

    That's because it's not a corvette. It never was.

     It's missile ship/boat (whatever it's called in English, my guess is ship)

    Only time I heard it being called corvette is in MSM articles, probably because they try to describe it in terms their regular readers are familiar with.

    And if Germany can call those Braunschweig ships corvettes then Karakurt is pretty much there although I would hardly call Braunschweig a corvette. Looks more like offshore patrol vessel to me.

    It's 10-15% larger than Karakurt and yet it has 50% less endurance and anemic weaponry. Just stretch Karakurt​ enough to add a helipad and you can officially call it corvette by that logic.

    That entire late 19th century naming convention for ships has become completely meaningless. Just compare new UK destroyers with new US ones. They should drop whole naming system and move to light/medium/heavy/etc.. like for rockets.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:13 pm

    miroslav wrote:That's only partially try, if you count out the Muricans, how many NATO countries actually have frigates and destroyers that can launch long range land attack missiles not to mention a supersonic anti-ship missiles, all from the same ship.

    I am not trying to make the Karakuts more that they are, but a battle group of 4 of them covered by maybe two frigates for air defense can launch a serious attack on any other NATO group consisting out of much larger ships, theoretically at least.

    Karakurts and Buyan-Ms are what every modern Navy's FACs should be. Same goes for Gremyashchiys and Dzerkiys in the corvette level. And then the same for Grigorovichs in the frigate level. All these classes are armed with peak firepower/capability for their tonnage. EU NATO members (and Canada) seem to have lost the plot on the whole surface vessel/land attack game. RN may be the exception once that Type 26 gets going, but that will take a decade.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    ult wrote:Getting ready.

    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.

    That's because it's not a corvette. It never was.

     It's missile ship/boat (whatever it's called in English, my guess is ship)

    Only time I heard it being called corvette is in MSM articles, probably because they try to describe it in terms their regular readers are familiar with.

    And if Germany can call those Braunschweig ships corvettes then Karakurt is pretty much there although I would hardly call Braunschweig a corvette. Looks more like offshore patrol vessel to me.

    It's 10-15% larger than Karakurt and yet it has 50% less endurance and anemic weaponry. Just stretch Karakurt​ enough to add a helipad and you can officially call it corvette by that logic.

    That entire late 19th century naming convention for ships has become completely meaningless. Just compare new UK destroyers with new US ones. They should drop whole naming system and move to light/medium/heavy/etc.. like for rockets.

    Germans are not a nation from which one should care to evaluate choices on surface vessels, apart from their FACs in the 70s and 80s. Which were quite successful. Their recent choices on Frigates and corvettes is a joke.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  marat on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:20 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    ult wrote:Getting ready.

    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.

    That's because it's not a corvette. It never was.

     It's missile ship/boat (whatever it's called in English, my guess is ship)

    Only time I heard it being called corvette is in MSM articles, probably because they try to describe it in terms their regular readers are familiar with.

    And if Germany can call those Braunschweig ships corvettes then Karakurt is pretty much there although I would hardly call Braunschweig a corvette. Looks more like offshore patrol vessel to me.

    It's 10-15% larger than Karakurt and yet it has 50% less endurance and anemic weaponry. Just stretch Karakurt​ enough to add a helipad and you can officially call it corvette by that logic.

    That entire late 19th century naming convention for ships has become completely meaningless. Just compare new UK destroyers with new US ones. They should drop whole naming system and move to light/medium/heavy/etc.. like for rockets.

    Are we talking about same ship???
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunschweig-class_corvette

    2x bigger then Karakut and totaly different role.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:23 pm



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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:33 pm

    marat wrote:.......

    Are we talking about same ship???
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunschweig-class_corvette

    2x bigger then Karakut and totaly different role.

    2x heavier but longer enough to just have a helipad installed. It doesn't even carry a helicopter, just UAVs

    It's patrol vessel/minelayer combo with less endurance than Karakurt and yet people call it corvette

    It is clear that neither ship is a corvette by any standard

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  marat on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:36 pm

    Well patroling is just what is corvettes job. Any way not 10-15% bigger.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:.......

    Are we talking about same ship???
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunschweig-class_corvette

    2x bigger then Karakut and totaly different role.

    2x heavier but longer enough to just have a helipad installed. It doesn't even carry a helicopter, just UAVs

    It's patrol vessel/minelayer combo with less endurance than Karakurt and yet people call it corvette

    It is clear that neither ship is a corvette by any standard

    200 km range on that RBS mk3 not to shabby. Better than the baseline Uran or even Exocet mkiii.
    I'd not outright deny Braunschweigs corvette privileges. They're big and capable enough.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:10 pm

    Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?
    Pure weight I expect.
    Smaller gun = more displacement available for UKSK & Pantsir-M.
    Not like 76mm is particularly weak, the OTO Melara 76mm is very widely used up to large Frigate class ships.

    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.
    From that angle yes it looks like a patrol boat.
    But that look couldn't be more deceiving.

    What a Face


    Very low profile cover over the radar panels on the mast, might have thought they've been deleted from the final design if we hadn't seen the holes during building.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:45 pm

    More pics & better quality via Balancer forum love




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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:49 pm










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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:01 pm


    So it looks like Amur will be on the job soon:

    ...Russia plans to build six more Karakurt-class (Project 22800) corvettes for the needs of the country's Pacific Fleet at the shipyards located in Russia's Far East, Borisov added...

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707291055993431-russia-navy-22800-kalibr-missiles/
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:07 pm





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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:36 pm

    Is everything on it fully installed and ready for testing?
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    Benya

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Benya on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:02 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is everything on it fully installed and ready for testing?

    Sure, it is slated for delivery in December of this year, until that it will undergo sea trials. For me at first this 5 months trial sounded a bit short, but this is a small ship with not much combat systems to test, so it's OK.

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miroslav on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:01 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is everything on it fully installed and ready for testing?

    It's about 95% done, final fitting out probably wont take long, no ship is ever launcher 100% ready.

    Just by looking, it's missing all the countermeasures launchers, the EW pods at the sides of the main mast (2 on each side), the fire control radar for the guns that will be in front of the main mast, you can see the base where it will be put on one of the pictures of the upper bridge structure, the navigation radar in front of the upper radar dome and probably a few antennas.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:54 am

    Where the missiles at?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:29 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Where the missiles at?

    Right behind radar, dead center of the ship
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:23 am

    Speaking of the radar, looks like a Positiv dome to me?

    Kinda would have expected Furke since thats based on the Pantsir radar.
    Maybe it is but just with a different dome than on 20380?

    Preferably its a version of the Pantsir-S2 double-sided AESA rather than either the S1 based Furke or Positiv.
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    Benya

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Benya on Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:51 am

    hoom wrote:Speaking of the radar, looks like a Positiv dome to me?

    Kinda would have expected Furke since thats based on the Pantsir radar.
    Maybe it is but just with a different dome than on 20380?

    Preferably its a version of the Pantsir-S2 double-sided AESA rather than either the S1 based Furke or Positiv.

    It is Mineral-ME.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:15 am

    It is Mineral-ME.
    But then what air search radar does it have?

    Typhoon the 2nd boat
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:35 am

    What about the sonar? As in, if it's a corvette, there's got to be a sonar. Towed array perhaps?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  George1 on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:37 pm

    Technical specifications

    Length: about 67m
    Width: approx. 11m
    Displacement: about 800 t
    Full speed: up to 30 knots
    Range: up to 2500 miles

    Armament:
    RK "Caliber-NK";
    1x 76.2 mm AU AK-176MA AP1;
    2x 30 mm AC AU-630M;
    2x 12.7 mm PU "Kord".

    The MRK is equipped with modern control systems, RTV, radio communication, navigation, electronic warfare and countermeasures, anti-sabotage weapons, portable SAMs.
    Domestic power plant based on 3 diesel engines M-507D-1 and 3 diesel generators DGAS-315 produced by PJSC "Zvezda".


    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1969082.html

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Some info on Pr.22800 construction in Bmpd:


    -"small missile ship" is the description if some dont like "corvette" Smile
    -At least 18 ships will be constructed. First seven ordered in Pella shipyard. 5 in Zelenodolsky Plant
    -Pella also is the main investor in More Shipyard, Feodosiya. Thats why some ships will be constructed there.
    -Zaliv Shipyard, Kerch is managed by Zelenodolsk Plant and first 3 ships of Zelenodolsk Plant's order will be built there
    -Pantsir naval SAM will be put on 3rd ship of the class and beyond


    Project 22800 was developed by JSC "Central Marine Design Bureau" Almaz "(St. Petersburg) and should actually replace small-scale missile ships (MRK) of Project 21631 (code number" Buyan-M ") in the construction for the Russian Navy of the JSC Zelenodolsk Design Bureau "(The construction of the latter is limited to 12 units). Earlier it was reported that the Russian Navy planned to have no less than 18 ships of Project 22800. The construction of the first seven  is carried out by the Pella plant under a contract received in accordance with the order of the Government of the Russian Federation for the company's receipt of the status of the only supplier for this project.

    The ceremony of laying the first two small missile ships of the project 22800 Uragan (plant number 251) and Typhoon (plant number 252) for the Russian Navy was held at the Pella plant on December 24, 2015. The delivery of their navy under the terms of the contract with the Russian Defense Ministry is scheduled for 2017 and 2018 respectively.

    During the descent of the "Uragan", Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov confirmed that he "hopes" that the main ship will be delivered by the end of 2017.

    Yuri Borisov also said about the future prospects of the project 22800 that "from a certain ship we will pacify" Pantsir "and put it on it." Uragan "will not have it, but the third ship of Pella will go with the "Pantsir". He stressed that "there are no problems with the anti-aircraft missile system for the ships of this project."

    By the present time, two more RTOs of the 22800 project with the names "Shkval" (plant number 253, laid July 29, 2016) and "Storm" (plant number 257, laid down on December 24, 2016) are being constructed at the Pella plant.

    Since the Pella plant is the main investor of the Moret Shipyard in Feodosia (Crimea), and in November 2016 received the latter's capacity for lease until December 31, 2020, respectively, of the seven RTOs of Project 22800 ordered by the "Pella", three ships should be built at NW "Sea" in close cooperation with "Pella", which led to the transfer of the construction of three units to Feodosia. The first RTOs of this project, Okhotsk (plant number 255), was laid in Feodosia on March 17, 2017 It is characteristic that the RTOs under construction in Feodosia received construction Numbers from 254 to 256 "in a row" of the building numbers of this project on "Pella".

    On August 5, 2016, the Zelenodolsky Plant named after AM Gorky (Zelenodolsk) received the contract of the Russian Defense Ministry for the construction of another five small missile ships of Project 22800 for the Navy. At the same time Zelenodolsk plant was actually received under temporary management of Zaliv Shipbuilding Plant LLC in Kerch (Crimea) from the end of 2014. According to unofficial information, the main Zelenodolsky IRC of Project 22800, called "Cyclone" (serial number 801), was without special Publicity was laid at the Zaliv shipbuilding plant in Kerch in the summer of 2016. According to available information, two next RTOs of the 22800 project with factory numbers 802 (also laid in 2016) and 803 are already being built at the Zaliv plant.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2759160.html


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    franco

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:42 pm

    Small missile ship is the official designation. thumbsup

    To add to your list, another 6 are to be built for the Pacific Fleet possibly at the Amur Shipyard.

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