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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    Benya

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Benya on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:33 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?

    For a while, yes. If the MoD decides to order even more of them, they could be built there in Zaliv, or maybe at the Yaroslavl Shipyard, albeit it has a small shipbuilding capacity, it could also build corvettes with little to no efforts if necessary.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:32 am

    Benya wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
    That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

    From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
    I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).


    So that would officially be third shipyard where these vessels are built?

    This is how you get things done.

    We can now say that construction of missile ships has been permanently solved. Hopefully corvettes and frigates are next.  thumbsup

    Actually, currently only the "Tsiklon" will be built at Zaliv Shipyard (Kerch), the remaining ones with awarded contracts ("Musson", "Passat", "Briz", "Tornado" and "Smerch") will be built at Zelenodolsk, according to Business-Gazeta.ru: https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/318577

    Zelenodolsk, Pella and Feodosia are perfect for these small ships. As soon as it is possible I would like to see something bigger (Frigate or destroyer) made in Zaliv.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:58 am

    Benya wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?

    For a while, yes. If the MoD decides to order even more of them, they could be built there in Zaliv, or maybe at the Yaroslavl Shipyard, albeit it has a small shipbuilding capacity, it could also build corvettes with little to no efforts if necessary.

    I saw on sdelanounas that Russia has loads of these small shipyards that build cargo and river ships

    If they throw any of them in the Naval supply chain it will be excellent
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:51 am

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707131055513223-karakurt-missile-corvette/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:10 am

    miketheterrible wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201707131055513223-karakurt-missile-corvette/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    The ship is great but still is missing anything to protect from subs, no self defense weapon. Knowing Russian specifics large distances, sparsely scattered naval bases I want to believe they always will be protected from subs by other ships.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:35 am

    Well there's only so much that can be done within 900tons...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:02 pm

    What are you talking about it says in that article it has UKSK universal launchers for their Onyx or Kalibr missiles.

    That means it can carry the 91RE1 anti sub ballistic missile to deliver a torpedo into the water against any enemy sub spotted within 50km of the boat within a minute or two.


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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:07 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201707131055513223-karakurt-missile-corvette/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    The ship is great but still is missing anything to protect from subs, no self defense weapon.  Knowing Russian specifics large distances, sparsely  scattered naval bases I want to believe they always will be protected from subs by other ships.  

    It has decoys and a sonar. It's supposed to replace small corvettes/fast attack boat, not Udaloys ...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:38 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201707131055513223-karakurt-missile-corvette/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    The ship is great but still is missing anything to protect from subs, no self defense weapon.  Knowing Russian specifics large distances, sparsely  scattered naval bases I want to believe they always will be protected from subs by other ships.  

    It has decoys and a sonar. It's supposed to replace small corvettes/fast attack boat, not Udaloys ...

    I didn't know it had sonar. Where is it installed?
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:23 pm

    I didn't know it had sonar. Where is it installed?

    I just check and I was wrong, not suppose to have one. But for self defence they could install a small one and add counter torpedo system like Pk-10 firing active jamming rockets. There is plenty of space on that ship. for this specially at the back.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:58 pm

    URAGAN, the first vessel of the Pr. 22800 will be launched on the 29th of July.

    http://www.pellaship.ru/22800-uragan-spusk-na-vodu.html



    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT:  Some posters here should really read more and post less. These posters include:

    - Those who expect an 800 T ship to obliterate all enemy surface ships from a million miles away, destroy anything that does not look or sound like a fish in the bottom of the ocean, shoot down anything that dares to fly anywhere in the Earth's atmosphere and take on the Death Star while watching the latest episode of Trump v/s CNN.

    - Those who post wrong information, incorrect data and fake news.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:What are you talking about it says in that article it has UKSK universal launchers for their Onyx or Kalibr missiles.

    That means it can carry the 91RE1 anti sub ballistic missile to deliver a torpedo into the water against any enemy sub spotted within 50km of the boat within a minute or two.

    True, but
    1) it does not have any sonar (or am I wrong?), its not supposed to hunt subs to to be able to defend itself
    2) it has neither self--defense torpedoes nor RBU -600 type of self-defense


    Isos wrote: It has decoys and a sonar. It's supposed to replace small corvettes/fast attack boat, not Udaloys ...

    yup, but it is shame to lose ship just because there is no self-defense.


    TheArmenian wrote: EDIT: Some posters here should really read more and post less. These posters include:.
    and where did I write anything like this or you should read a bit more what other write perhaps? Smile
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:05 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:.................

    EDIT:  Some posters here should really read more and post less. These posters include:

    - Those who expect an 800 T ship to obliterate all enemy surface ships from a million miles away, destroy anything that does not look or sound like a fish in the bottom of the ocean, shoot down anything that dares to fly anywhere in the Earth's atmosphere and take on the Death Star while watching the latest episode of Trump v/s CNN.

    - Those who post wrong information, incorrect data and fake news.

    OK this is me and it happened just twice but I only mistook one model of SAM for another and they had similar names and I didn't sleep much back in those days.... cry
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:59 am

    True, but
    1) it does not have any sonar (or am I wrong?), its not supposed to hunt subs to to be able to defend itself
    2) it has neither self--defense torpedoes nor RBU -600 type of self-defense

    So land based military units have become useless... they don't carry around recon assets to allow them to find targets and threats so while they have all sorts of weapons to destroy targets they don't have the sensors to find the targets themselves... except they are part of a military force that includes such sensors that can communicate the presence and location of targets so those units could launch attacks upon those threats... see what I mean?

    Or to say bluntly why bother spending enormous amounts of money fitting every ship with C4IR systems and various sea bed located sensor arrays if you are not going to use them to share target information with all vessels... a Karakut wont be able to find targets in the middle of Syria for Kalibr missiles to hit so I suppose carrying those sorts of missiles would also be a waste of time...



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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:28 am

    Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?

    ult

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  ult on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:45 am

    Getting ready.

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:47 am

    First, three are going to the black sea fleet

    miroslav

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miroslav on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:08 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?

    A 100mm gun is an overkill for a 64 m ship on the open sea. The Buyans (especially the M ones) are big enough that they have room for it and, as far as I can tell, where all design from the beginning to support amphibious landings in the Caspian sea.

    Plus a 76 mm gun has a much faster rate of fire which is better for air defense, smaller (but sill big) shell but much faster rate of fire.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:59 am

    miroslav wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?

    A 100mm gun is an overkill for a 64 m ship on the open sea. The Buyans (especially the M ones) are big enough that they have room for it and, as far as I can tell, where all design from the beginning to support amphibious landings in the Caspian sea.

    Plus a 76 mm gun has a much faster rate of fire which is better for air defense, smaller (but sill big) shell but much faster rate of fire.

    Also speed. They need to keep the weight down.

    Buyans are green water ships whose main armament is gun and that were later upgraded so serve as LACM platforms but task remained the same: land attack.

    Karakurts are blue water vessels whose main armament will be anti-ship missiles because their task will be to fight other ships at long range. Sped is important here. Gun is secondary armament for them. They can carry LACMs of course but it will not be default setting for them.

    marat

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  marat on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:33 am

    Karakut is not blue navy ship. It is not brown either.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:41 am

    ult wrote:Getting ready.


    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:10 am

    The 76.2mm ammo is lighter so for a given weight more ammo can be carried, and AFAIK they are developing guided shells and special fused options for guns from 30mm, 57mm, and 76.2mm calibre and up, so performance against aircraft or objects in flight should actually be pretty good... think super AHEAD rounds.


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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  marat on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:50 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    ult wrote:Getting ready.


    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.

    Well yes this is a bit larger FAC but that is quite fine RuNavy need those kind of ships for replacing old nanuchka and Tarantul class FAC.

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:04 am

    marat wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    ult wrote:Getting ready.


    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.

    Well yes this is a bit larger FAC but that is quite fine RuNavy need those kind of ships for replacing old nanuchka and Tarantul class FAC.


    With less than 1,000 tons (800?) it's almost funny to call that a corvette. That's the upper scale of FACs (or compact VLS-equipped FAC hybrid that it really is). Nobody is going to have a good time sailing in that in the open seas on the way, say to the Med or Atlantic.

    But sure, it sounds grandiose for the politicians and corporate elite to call their projects something they are not. A corvette becomes a frigate and a large patrol craft becomes a corvette. Everybody 's happy apart from the average Ivan sailing in it lol1

    PS. Using that tiny boat to replace something like the Krivak II is almost criminal.

    miroslav

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miroslav on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:20 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    marat wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    ult wrote:Getting ready.


    I can't see a corvette. This looks like a large patrol craft/FAC, quite small and lightly-armed for a 2017 corvette.

    Well yes this is a bit larger FAC but that is quite fine RuNavy need those kind of ships for replacing old nanuchka and Tarantul class FAC.


    With less than 1,000 tons (800?) it's almost funny to call that a corvette. That's the upper scale of FACs (or compact VLS-equipped FAC hybrid that it really is). Nobody is going to have a good time sailing in that in the open seas on the way, say to the Med or Atlantic.

    But sure, it sounds grandiose for the politicians and corporate elite to call their projects something they are not. A corvette becomes a frigate and a large patrol craft becomes a corvette. Everybody 's happy apart from the average Ivan sailing in it lol1

    PS. Using that tiny boat to replace something like the Krivak II is almost criminal.

    I think that it's the "I can't see a corvette." that's making the big problem here. The ship is shaped/designed in a way that many FACs and large patrol boats are, visually and that makes sense in this case, but do not forget the actual size, just look at the person in the picture. The Karakut is 6-7m longer than Tarantul or Nancutka. Let's not forget the fact that there is nothing in the class that has the same firepower.

    The German Braunschweig class (classics example of a new western corvette) has only 4 dedicated anti-ship missiles a gun and AA missiles, which will be remedied and overshadowed after the Pantsir module is installed. Point is, the western counterparts can't make a strategic contributor to the fight the Russian ones can.

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