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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:27 pm

    Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
    Interesting Cool
    I wonder why BMPD used this image?

    Seem to recall that was a competing design? Or might Zelenodolsk be making their own variant?
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes.

    Why would any country import cranes?

    Why does the US import cheap clothing from China?

    Why do big western companies build factories in China to make things for foreign markets?

    Why can't they import cranes?

    Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

    Most countries on the planet import things but because you say so Russia is not allowed to?

    The thing is that to be really successful a crane company would need a big market... selling some to the Russian military would not be a good enough reason because for the last 2 and a half decades they have not been buying much of anything... not really a good way to make a living.

    The last decade of course has seen an up turn in requirement but as you mention when the military is just as happy to import products who will invest the time and money needed to develop it in Russia... and who is to say your company will get the contracts and not some guy down the road... sounds a pretty risky thing to me... even if you get the contract how much export work will that get you around the world?

    Some maker in China that makes for half the planet can always undercut you even just for a short period for a few contracts to put you out of business...

    Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

    Actually it is the Indians that are likely to look to French or German winches for their Russian equipment... look at their MiG-29Ks and Su-30MKIs filled with non Russian bits...

    Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy i

    So what you are saying is not that Russian does not make cranes and other items, it is that the buyers are finding better products elsewhere and buying them instead... isn't that how the free market economy is supposed to work?

    however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

    We are talking about cranes... not ICBM rocket motors or computer controllers for nuclear power plants.

    What is your definition of required?

    Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies.

    Russia is investing in quite a lot of areas... mostly they licence produce proven foreign products... most of the time that is good enough.

    It is hardly new... they licence produced the Gatling gun, the Maxim machine gun, the DC-3 transport plane, numerous trucks and vehicles.

    Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

    They are producing their own computer components, and soon with printing technology the concept of manufacture will have changed completely... I am not disagreeing that in core areas they need to produce their own basics, from which they can develop their own... everything, but their biggest problem is getting things from the design stage to an in the shop product that can be sold to fund the development of new materials and equipment and things.

    I have seen zero quantification of Russian manufacturing deficiencies and lack of capability from this troll clown. It is also
    clear that he has negligible understanding of economics. Using off the shelf, cheaper components on large projects is de rigeur
    around the world. This is how project budgets are constrained and deadlines are achieved. Building every part from scratch is
    just not done for any project. This sort of development work is done in the background and adoption of new parts takes a while
    since their initial cost is high (due to investment in development recovery). This troll tries to brow beat Russians about being inferior.
    Looks like an inferiority complex is afflicting his brain. You can thank Boris Yeltsin the comprador drunk for depriving Russia of a lot of
    industrial capacity and for making it dependent on imports. Thank God but Putin has fixed most of the mess, partly due to some inadvertent
    sanctions help.

    I will remind people of the troll's claims about the lack of Ukrainian (aka Banderastani) gas turbines being a show stopper for Russia.
    Deafening silence on this from the clown now. No way, I am not going to forget this "brow beater" BS sanctimony and smear.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:43 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
    That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

    From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
    I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).


    So that would officially be third shipyard where these vessels are built?

    This is how you get things done.

    We can now say that construction of missile ships has been permanently solved. Hopefully corvettes and frigates are next. thumbsup




    kvs wrote:.........
    I will remind people of the troll's claims about the lack of Ukrainian (aka Banderastani) gas turbines being a show stopper for Russia.
    Deafening silence on this from the clown now. No way, I am not going to forget this "brow beater" BS sanctimony and smear.

    Dude what "sanctimony and smear" are you talking about?

    Everyone with a brain knew that Ukrainian engines will be an issue for a while.

    But everyone with a brain also knew that it will just be a temporary issue that will be resolved in couple of years.

    And here we are couple of years later and issue has been resolved just as everyone said it would.

    You are getting worked up over nothing. No



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    Benya

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Benya on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
    That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

    From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
    I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).


    So that would officially be third shipyard where these vessels are built?

    This is how you get things done.

    We can now say that construction of missile ships has been permanently solved. Hopefully corvettes and frigates are next.  thumbsup

    Actually, currently only the "Tsiklon" will be built at Zaliv Shipyard (Kerch), the remaining ones with awarded contracts ("Musson", "Passat", "Briz", "Tornado" and "Smerch") will be built at Zelenodolsk, according to Business-Gazeta.ru: https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/318577
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:56 pm

    Benya wrote:........
    Actually, currently only the "Tsiklon" will be built at Zaliv Shipyard (Kerch), the remaining ones with awarded contracts ("Musson", "Passat", "Briz", "Tornado" and "Smerch") will be built at Zelenodolsk, according to Business-Gazeta.ru: https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/318577

    So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes.

    Why would any country import cranes?

    Why does the US import cheap clothing from China?

    Why do big western companies build factories in China to make things for foreign markets?

    Why can't they import cranes?

    Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

    Most countries on the planet import things but because you say so Russia is not allowed to?

    The thing is that to be really successful a crane company would need a big market... selling some to the Russian military would not be a good enough reason because for the last 2 and a half decades they have not been buying much of anything... not really a good way to make a living.

    The last decade of course has seen an up turn in requirement but as you mention when the military is just as happy to import products who will invest the time and money needed to develop it in Russia... and who is to say your company will get the contracts and not some guy down the road... sounds a pretty risky thing to me... even if you get the contract how much export work will that get you around the world?

    Some maker in China that makes for half the planet can always undercut you even just for a short period for a few contracts to put you out of business...

    Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

    Actually it is the Indians that are likely to look to French or German winches for their Russian equipment... look at their MiG-29Ks and Su-30MKIs filled with non Russian bits...

    Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy i

    So what you are saying is not that Russian does not make cranes and other items, it is that the buyers are finding better products elsewhere and buying them instead... isn't that how the free market economy is supposed to work?

    however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

    We are talking about cranes... not ICBM rocket motors or computer controllers for nuclear power plants.

    What is your definition of required?

    Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies.

    Russia is investing in quite a lot of areas... mostly they licence produce proven foreign products... most of the time that is good enough.

    It is hardly new... they licence produced the Gatling gun, the Maxim machine gun, the DC-3 transport plane, numerous trucks and vehicles.

    Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

    They are producing their own computer components, and soon with printing technology the concept of manufacture will have changed completely... I am not disagreeing that in core areas they need to produce their own basics, from which they can develop their own... everything, but their biggest problem is getting things from the design stage to an in the shop product that can be sold to fund the development of new materials and equipment and things.

    Why? Because they would need to pay piece of cloth 20 times more if it was made in US. You do not need to pay something made in Russia 20 times more. And one thing is low profit production like clothes compared to machine building which is highly profitable.

    And one thing is having YOUR factory in China that produces something from you, totallly different importing completely foreign items. Their design, materials...profit... And how many factories in China does Russia owns?

    Russia is not "most of the planet". Russia aims to be super-power, is alleged industrial major power, space exploration hub and what not... and imports..well...everything. I am not sure how you do not see the problem there. One thing is if Namibia imports crane, or Ivory Coast, totally... totally different when Russia does it.

    Yes, that is the problem, why are Germans better than Russians? What is exactly stopping Russians to make better rescue wench? Or you are saying they shouldnt, that its not important?

    Substituting imported items should be wider project than it is, and is exceptional chance to earn money.

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    Benya

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Benya on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:33 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?

    For a while, yes. If the MoD decides to order even more of them, they could be built there in Zaliv, or maybe at the Yaroslavl Shipyard, albeit it has a small shipbuilding capacity, it could also build corvettes with little to no efforts if necessary.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:32 am

    Benya wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
    That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

    From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
    I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).


    So that would officially be third shipyard where these vessels are built?

    This is how you get things done.

    We can now say that construction of missile ships has been permanently solved. Hopefully corvettes and frigates are next.  thumbsup

    Actually, currently only the "Tsiklon" will be built at Zaliv Shipyard (Kerch), the remaining ones with awarded contracts ("Musson", "Passat", "Briz", "Tornado" and "Smerch") will be built at Zelenodolsk, according to Business-Gazeta.ru: https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/318577

    Zelenodolsk, Pella and Feodosia are perfect for these small ships. As soon as it is possible I would like to see something bigger (Frigate or destroyer) made in Zaliv.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:58 am

    Benya wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?

    For a while, yes. If the MoD decides to order even more of them, they could be built there in Zaliv, or maybe at the Yaroslavl Shipyard, albeit it has a small shipbuilding capacity, it could also build corvettes with little to no efforts if necessary.

    I saw on sdelanounas that Russia has loads of these small shipyards that build cargo and river ships

    If they throw any of them in the Naval supply chain it will be excellent
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:51 am

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:10 am


    The ship is great but still is missing anything to protect from subs, no self defense weapon. Knowing Russian specifics large distances, sparsely scattered naval bases I want to believe they always will be protected from subs by other ships.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:35 am

    Well there's only so much that can be done within 900tons...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:02 pm

    What are you talking about it says in that article it has UKSK universal launchers for their Onyx or Kalibr missiles.

    That means it can carry the 91RE1 anti sub ballistic missile to deliver a torpedo into the water against any enemy sub spotted within 50km of the boat within a minute or two.


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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:07 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    The ship is great but still is missing anything to protect from subs, no self defense weapon.  Knowing Russian specifics large distances, sparsely  scattered naval bases I want to believe they always will be protected from subs by other ships.  

    It has decoys and a sonar. It's supposed to replace small corvettes/fast attack boat, not Udaloys ...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:38 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    The ship is great but still is missing anything to protect from subs, no self defense weapon.  Knowing Russian specifics large distances, sparsely  scattered naval bases I want to believe they always will be protected from subs by other ships.  

    It has decoys and a sonar. It's supposed to replace small corvettes/fast attack boat, not Udaloys ...

    I didn't know it had sonar. Where is it installed?
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:23 pm

    I didn't know it had sonar. Where is it installed?

    I just check and I was wrong, not suppose to have one. But for self defence they could install a small one and add counter torpedo system like Pk-10 firing active jamming rockets. There is plenty of space on that ship. for this specially at the back.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:58 pm

    URAGAN, the first vessel of the Pr. 22800 will be launched on the 29th of July.

    http://www.pellaship.ru/22800-uragan-spusk-na-vodu.html



    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT:  Some posters here should really read more and post less. These posters include:

    - Those who expect an 800 T ship to obliterate all enemy surface ships from a million miles away, destroy anything that does not look or sound like a fish in the bottom of the ocean, shoot down anything that dares to fly anywhere in the Earth's atmosphere and take on the Death Star while watching the latest episode of Trump v/s CNN.

    - Those who post wrong information, incorrect data and fake news.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:What are you talking about it says in that article it has UKSK universal launchers for their Onyx or Kalibr missiles.

    That means it can carry the 91RE1 anti sub ballistic missile to deliver a torpedo into the water against any enemy sub spotted within 50km of the boat within a minute or two.

    True, but
    1) it does not have any sonar (or am I wrong?), its not supposed to hunt subs to to be able to defend itself
    2) it has neither self--defense torpedoes nor RBU -600 type of self-defense


    Isos wrote: It has decoys and a sonar. It's supposed to replace small corvettes/fast attack boat, not Udaloys ...

    yup, but it is shame to lose ship just because there is no self-defense.


    TheArmenian wrote: EDIT: Some posters here should really read more and post less. These posters include:.
    and where did I write anything like this or you should read a bit more what other write perhaps? Smile
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:05 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:.................

    EDIT:  Some posters here should really read more and post less. These posters include:

    - Those who expect an 800 T ship to obliterate all enemy surface ships from a million miles away, destroy anything that does not look or sound like a fish in the bottom of the ocean, shoot down anything that dares to fly anywhere in the Earth's atmosphere and take on the Death Star while watching the latest episode of Trump v/s CNN.

    - Those who post wrong information, incorrect data and fake news.

    OK this is me and it happened just twice but I only mistook one model of SAM for another and they had similar names and I didn't sleep much back in those days.... cry
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:59 am

    True, but
    1) it does not have any sonar (or am I wrong?), its not supposed to hunt subs to to be able to defend itself
    2) it has neither self--defense torpedoes nor RBU -600 type of self-defense

    So land based military units have become useless... they don't carry around recon assets to allow them to find targets and threats so while they have all sorts of weapons to destroy targets they don't have the sensors to find the targets themselves... except they are part of a military force that includes such sensors that can communicate the presence and location of targets so those units could launch attacks upon those threats... see what I mean?

    Or to say bluntly why bother spending enormous amounts of money fitting every ship with C4IR systems and various sea bed located sensor arrays if you are not going to use them to share target information with all vessels... a Karakut wont be able to find targets in the middle of Syria for Kalibr missiles to hit so I suppose carrying those sorts of missiles would also be a waste of time...



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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:28 am

    Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?

    ult

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  ult on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:45 am

    Getting ready.

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:47 am

    First, three are going to the black sea fleet

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  miroslav on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:08 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?

    A 100mm gun is an overkill for a 64 m ship on the open sea. The Buyans (especially the M ones) are big enough that they have room for it and, as far as I can tell, where all design from the beginning to support amphibious landings in the Caspian sea.

    Plus a 76 mm gun has a much faster rate of fire which is better for air defense, smaller (but sill big) shell but much faster rate of fire.
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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:59 am

    miroslav wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Whats the reasoning behind the karakurts getting 76mm guns instead of 100mm ones?

    A 100mm gun is an overkill for a 64 m ship on the open sea. The Buyans (especially the M ones) are big enough that they have room for it and, as far as I can tell, where all design from the beginning to support amphibious landings in the Caspian sea.

    Plus a 76 mm gun has a much faster rate of fire which is better for air defense, smaller (but sill big) shell but much faster rate of fire.

    Also speed. They need to keep the weight down.

    Buyans are green water ships whose main armament is gun and that were later upgraded so serve as LACM platforms but task remained the same: land attack.

    Karakurts are blue water vessels whose main armament will be anti-ship missiles because their task will be to fight other ships at long range. Sped is important here. Gun is secondary armament for them. They can carry LACMs of course but it will not be default setting for them.

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