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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 15, 2017 10:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Crimean Shipyard to Build 3 Missile Corvettes by 2020 - Deputy Defense Minister

    https://sputniknews.com/russia/201703171051695087-crimean-shipyard-corvettes/

    ........"Three corvettes will be constructed at the More shipyard. The technological cycle of construction will take about 32 months. We expect the construction to be completed in 2018, 2019, and 2020, respectively. Laying of the third ship's keel will take place approximately at the end of this year," Borisov said during the keel laying of the second missile corvette, the Okhotsk.....

    ........Another 18 Project 22800 corvettes will be built by St. Petersburg's Pella Shipyard before 2022, while some others are being constructed by the Zelenodolsk Shipyard in Tatarstan, according to the Russian navy....

    Zelenodolsk part is probably faulty now that they greenlit more Buyans there

    AFAIK, Zelenodolsk was given a contract. But the Karakurts are not going to be built there.
    Instead they will be built in Zaliv (Kerch) which is controlled by Zelenodolsk.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 16, 2017 3:19 am


    So that would be second shipyard in Crimea that is being reactivated for naval construction? Nice.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri May 19, 2017 4:44 pm

    First Karakut delayed to 2018. http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B02/
    They're blaming the need to do extra tests due to it being a first of class which is not an exactly convincing excuse Neutral (probably will cause delay but that should have been in the original schedule...)
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  franco on Fri May 19, 2017 4:48 pm

    hoom wrote:First Karakut delayed to 2018. http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B02/
    They're blaming the need to do extra tests due to it being a first of class which is not an exactly convincing excuse Neutral (probably will cause delay but that should have been in the original schedule...)

    It is better to do it right... haste makes waste! Smile
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri May 19, 2017 4:49 pm

    hoom wrote:First Karakut delayed to 2018. http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B02/
    They're blaming the need to do extra tests due to it being a first of class which is not an exactly convincing excuse Neutral (probably will cause delay but that should have been in the original schedule...)

    No this is reasonable the first of any class of ship is going to have unforeseen issues, this is a natural part of ship building. If this was like the t5h one and they still did this then okay I'd see your point there.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 19, 2017 5:04 pm


    Also, this is first combat vessel built by Pella

    I assume that delay is due to lack of experience with installation of armaments

    It's expected
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 29, 2017 6:55 am

    Recent photo of the first Pr. 22800 at Pella shipyard.
    Construction is pretty much done, let the fitting begin.
    Launched is expected this summer.

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon May 29, 2017 6:57 am

    Bah ninja'd I was literally posting that at the same time tongue

    Is looking good Very Happy
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:28 am

    http://iz.ru/news/722462

    Missile ship URAGAN of pr. 22800 class will be launched later this year.
    It can operate in high seas and is not confined to the littoral areas, thus diminishing Navy operational costs.
    Will carry Pantsir-M module with 32 missiles including Hermes-K which can be guided by drones.

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    zg18

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  zg18 on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:24 pm

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:47 am

    Rapidly getting ship-shape bounce
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:15 pm

    Another pic via Balancers, 2nd boat behind

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:28 am

    Couple of pics during Rogozin visit to Pella via Bastion-karpenko http://bastion-karpenko.ru/pella/

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:49 pm


    Pella can definitely build full-sized corvettes.I do hope they get to "graduate" to Derzkii class soon.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:59 am

    Some pics from More at Feodosia




    Via Balancer this is apparently the engine unit for 22800, 3 per ship
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:41 am

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    kvs

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:05 pm

    hoom wrote:Some pics from More at Feodosia

    Via Balancer this is apparently the engine unit for 22800, 3 per ship

    No need for import substitution for these babies. These star-shaped diesels have been built in St. Petersburg by Zvezda since the 1970s.
    (http://www.zvezda.spb.ru/index.php/en/)
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:43 am


    Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/

    Was about time, was always annoyed seeing German and South Korean cranes on Russian ships,
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:39 am

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/
    ........

    Was about time, was always annoyed seeing German and South Korean cranes on Russian ships,

    Wanna hear something funny? Reason I even noticed that crane might be relevant for warships is because I remembered that you had massive issues over some crane on some ship. Very Happy

    So problems were imported cranes right?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:49 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/
    ........

    Was about time, was always annoyed seeing German and South Korean cranes on Russian ships,

    Wanna hear something funny? Reason I even noticed that crane might be relevant for warships is because I remembered that you had massive issues over some crane on some ship.  Very Happy

    So problems were imported cranes right?

    Yeah, majority of specialised lifting equipment in Russian armed forces (and Russia in general) is from import as factories that produced it mostly disappeared or produce things you could describe as relics.

    Currently Russia for an example doesnt offer really adequate rescue lift winch for helicopters, so operators of Mi-17s often buy western ones for their Russian helicopters, which kinda ends up being quite comic. You can build a helicopter but you cant make damn wench. Seems things are changing for better.

    I just dislike seeing Russian built military ship, and then you notice basically all of its auxilary equipment is foreign, from satelite dataling, to weather radar, cranes, mine-hunting robots, submersibles, inflatable boats... you cant build everything, whoever thinks its possible is nuts, but its not required for country big as Russia to import God damn cranes.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:48 am

    Of course, why buy a cheap effective system from another country when you can spend five times more and get an inferior model built at home... that is a good way forward...

    You make it seem that because they use foreign components it is because they can't do it domestically.

    Reality is not so black and white.

    I would suspect sometimes it is corruption, but other times the foreign model is just better and cheaper.

    Of course with US bullshit regarding sanctions it is nothing to do with pride, but simple practicality to have control of the sources of your equipment so we should thank the dumb fucks in Washington for doing their citizens out of export sales to Russia...


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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:Of course, why buy a cheap effective system from another country when you can spend five times more and get an inferior model built at home... that is a good way forward...

    You make it seem that because they use foreign components it is because they can't do it domestically.

    Reality is not so black and white.

    I would suspect sometimes it is corruption, but other times the foreign model is just better and cheaper.

    Of course with US bullshit regarding sanctions it is nothing to do with pride, but simple practicality to have control of the sources of your equipment so we should thank the dumb fucks in Washington for doing their citizens out of export sales to Russia...

    Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes. Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

    Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

    Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy it.

    As i already said, i am not expecting nor do i belive in complete self sufficiency, as such model will never work, anywhere, however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

    Okay, import Swedish tooling machines in 80s for submarine propeller production, its highly complex set of machines and tools, hard to master, but why in the name of God, would you allow yourself to import crane, winch, waterproof cloth, dental implants, cement, skiing googles, glasses and whatnot. Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies. You actually need to search quite alot to find company that has even universal lathe built in Russia these days, let alone some more complex machine. And those machines are supposed to be one of the cores of being sanction independent.

    Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

    100% like Serbian old saying: "Gde si bio nigde, šta si radio, ništa".

    This is not some weird intoxication, trolling or whatever some ppl here claim, this is my personal scream of despair over things that should be.

    Anyways, nice seeing crane being developed hopefully it sees numerous applications.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:33 am

    Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
    That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

    From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
    I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:43 am

    Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes.

    Why would any country import cranes?

    Why does the US import cheap clothing from China?

    Why do big western companies build factories in China to make things for foreign markets?

    Why can't they import cranes?

    Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

    Most countries on the planet import things but because you say so Russia is not allowed to?

    The thing is that to be really successful a crane company would need a big market... selling some to the Russian military would not be a good enough reason because for the last 2 and a half decades they have not been buying much of anything... not really a good way to make a living.

    The last decade of course has seen an up turn in requirement but as you mention when the military is just as happy to import products who will invest the time and money needed to develop it in Russia... and who is to say your company will get the contracts and not some guy down the road... sounds a pretty risky thing to me... even if you get the contract how much export work will that get you around the world?

    Some maker in China that makes for half the planet can always undercut you even just for a short period for a few contracts to put you out of business...

    Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

    Actually it is the Indians that are likely to look to French or German winches for their Russian equipment... look at their MiG-29Ks and Su-30MKIs filled with non Russian bits...

    Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy i

    So what you are saying is not that Russian does not make cranes and other items, it is that the buyers are finding better products elsewhere and buying them instead... isn't that how the free market economy is supposed to work?

    however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

    We are talking about cranes... not ICBM rocket motors or computer controllers for nuclear power plants.

    What is your definition of required?

    Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies.

    Russia is investing in quite a lot of areas... mostly they licence produce proven foreign products... most of the time that is good enough.

    It is hardly new... they licence produced the Gatling gun, the Maxim machine gun, the DC-3 transport plane, numerous trucks and vehicles.

    Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

    They are producing their own computer components, and soon with printing technology the concept of manufacture will have changed completely... I am not disagreeing that in core areas they need to produce their own basics, from which they can develop their own... everything, but their biggest problem is getting things from the design stage to an in the shop product that can be sold to fund the development of new materials and equipment and things.


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