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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

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    Austin

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:43 pm

    Russian Navy to get 18 new class corvettes — commander

    Any specis of 22800 class ?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:35 am

    Austin wrote:Russian Navy to get 18 new class corvettes — commander

    Any specs of 22800 class ?



    Here are the specs of the Project 12300 (in brief):

    Displacement: 800 T
    Length : 60 m
    Speed : 30 knots
    Range : 2500 miles
    Endurance : 15 days
    Armament : 1 x76, cruise missiles, gun/missile anti-air module

    The project 22800 is based on the Project 12300 SKORPION which used to be a 500T missile ship. It grew up to 800T later on.
    Here is a photo of the early model Pr. 12300 SKORPION that had a displacement of 500 T.

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    Viktor

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    Project 22800

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:28 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    The Russian Navy will receive 18 small missile ships of the project 22800, "golovnik" lay in 2016 - Commander of the Navy


    Cucumber Khan

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:53 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:Bunch of news:

    Work has resumed on the 4th 5th and 6th (!) Grigorovitch class frigates. Delivery dates will depend on when the new turbines get in: http://flotprom.ru/2015/%D0%AF%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C25//

    That's really interesting. Wonder were that will mean for the 22800, that were supposed to replace the 11356?
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    artjomh

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  artjomh on Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:14 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:That's really interesting. Wonder were that will mean for the 22800, that were supposed to replace the 11356?

    22800 was never going to replace 11356. That was just nonsense.

    Remember, the Russian Navy is the ugly stepdaughter of the Russian military budget. The top brass got so good (or so bad, from another POV) at begging for money that they have to invent patently ridiculous reasons to build particular ships.

    There are several crossing interests here:

    - Navy wants money for more ships. Government won't pay for ships that will never get finished because of uncertainty with Ukraining propulsion. So Navy pretends that this other completely unrelated ship class will somehow replace the 11356 frigate. Just ignore the strategic utility and give us more money.

    - Almaz is looking to sell new ships. They see that the government seems to be paying for a lot of 800-900 ton missile boats. They get to thinking, well, we can't have Zelenodolsk get all that cash, let's draw up a project of our own. Hence we got 22800.

    Because there is no clear long-term (30-40 year) government strategy in shipbuilding that would translate into concrete plans, a lot of these decisions get made completely ad hoc, in the spur of the moment. Which is why you get a lot of wastefully similar designs (1161 vs 20380, 11356 vs 22350, 22800 vs 21361, etc) that get built not because they fulfill some strategic purpose for the Russian Navy, but because of the result of bureaucratic maneuvering by Navy and industry apparatchiks.

    Those are just a couple examples of this kind of bureaurocratic maneuvering. There are lots more idiocy in decision making. It's pretty disfunctional. "Only mass shootings will save Russia" and all that jazz.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:13 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    Cucumber Khan wrote:That's really interesting. Wonder were that will mean for the 22800, that were supposed to replace the 11356?

    22800 was never going to replace 11356. That was just nonsense.

    Remember, the Russian Navy is the ugly stepdaughter of the Russian military budget. The top brass got so good (or so bad, from another POV) at begging for money that they have to invent patently ridiculous reasons to build particular ships.

    There are several crossing interests here:

    - Navy wants money for more ships. Government won't pay for ships that will never get finished because of uncertainty with Ukraining propulsion. So Navy pretends that this other completely unrelated ship class will somehow replace the 11356 frigate. Just ignore the strategic utility and give us more money.

    - Almaz is looking to sell new ships. They see that the government seems to be paying for a lot of 800-900 ton missile boats. They get to thinking, well, we can't have Zelenodolsk get all that cash, let's draw up a project of our own. Hence we got 22800.

    Because there is no clear long-term (30-40 year) government strategy in shipbuilding that would translate into concrete plans, a lot of these decisions get made completely ad hoc, in the spur of the moment. Which is why you get a lot of wastefully similar designs (1161 vs 20380, 11356 vs 22350, 22800 vs 21361, etc) that get built not because they fulfill some strategic purpose for the Russian Navy, but because of the result of bureaucratic maneuvering by Navy and industry apparatchiks.

    Those are just a couple examples of this kind of bureaurocratic maneuvering. There are lots more idiocy in decision making. It's pretty disfunctional. "Only mass shootings will save Russia" and all that jazz.

    Now that Grigorevich class is back in business I think that 22800 is a goner. Once remaining three frigates are completed Gorskhovs will be next for very long time.

    Also, 800/900 ton space will be filled with remaining Buyan-Ms and their successor, the Sarsar class.

    Not much room for 22800 left now.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    Cucumber Khan wrote:That's really interesting. Wonder were that will mean for the 22800, that were supposed to replace the 11356?

    22800 was never going to replace 11356. That was just nonsense.

    Remember, the Russian Navy is the ugly stepdaughter of the Russian military budget. The top brass got so good (or so bad, from another POV) at begging for money that they have to invent patently ridiculous reasons to build particular ships.

    There are several crossing interests here:

    - Navy wants money for more ships. Government won't pay for ships that will never get finished because of uncertainty with Ukraining propulsion. So Navy pretends that this other completely unrelated ship class will somehow replace the 11356 frigate. Just ignore the strategic utility and give us more money.

    - Almaz is looking to sell new ships. They see that the government seems to be paying for a lot of 800-900 ton missile boats. They get to thinking, well, we can't have Zelenodolsk get all that cash, let's draw up a project of our own. Hence we got 22800.

    Because there is no clear long-term (30-40 year) government strategy in shipbuilding that would translate into concrete plans, a lot of these decisions get made completely ad hoc, in the spur of the moment. Which is why you get a lot of wastefully similar designs (1161 vs 20380, 11356 vs 22350, 22800 vs 21361, etc) that get built not because they fulfill some strategic purpose for the Russian Navy, but because of the result of bureaucratic maneuvering by Navy and industry apparatchiks.

    Those are just a couple examples of this kind of bureaurocratic maneuvering. There are lots more idiocy in decision making. It's pretty disfunctional. "Only mass shootings will save Russia" and all that jazz.

    Now that Grigorevich class is back in business I think that 22800 is a goner. Once remaining three frigates are completed Gorskhovs will be next for very long time.

    Also, 800/900 ton space  will be filled with remaining Buyan-Ms and their successor, the Sarsar class.

    Not much room for 22800 left now.

    No.

    The 800T project 22800 has nothing to do with the 4000T project 11356.
    The 22800 will be built at Almaz in St. Petersburg, while the 11356 will continue to be built in Kaliningrad.
    The first 22800 will be laid out no sooner than next year.
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    Maximmmm

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Maximmmm on Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:54 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    Cucumber Khan wrote:That's really interesting. Wonder were that will mean for the 22800, that were supposed to replace the 11356?

    22800 was never going to replace 11356. That was just nonsense.

    Remember, the Russian Navy is the ugly stepdaughter of the Russian military budget. The top brass got so good (or so bad, from another POV) at begging for money that they have to invent patently ridiculous reasons to build particular ships.

    There are several crossing interests here:

    - Navy wants money for more ships. Government won't pay for ships that will never get finished because of uncertainty with Ukraining propulsion. So Navy pretends that this other completely unrelated ship class will somehow replace the 11356 frigate. Just ignore the strategic utility and give us more money.

    - Almaz is looking to sell new ships. They see that the government seems to be paying for a lot of 800-900 ton missile boats. They get to thinking, well, we can't have Zelenodolsk get all that cash, let's draw up a project of our own. Hence we got 22800.

    Because there is no clear long-term (30-40 year) government strategy in shipbuilding that would translate into concrete plans, a lot of these decisions get made completely ad hoc, in the spur of the moment. Which is why you get a lot of wastefully similar designs (1161 vs 20380, 11356 vs 22350, 22800 vs 21361, etc) that get built not because they fulfill some strategic purpose for the Russian Navy, but because of the result of bureaucratic maneuvering by Navy and industry apparatchiks.

    Those are just a couple examples of this kind of bureaurocratic maneuvering. There are lots more idiocy in decision making. It's pretty disfunctional. "Only mass shootings will save Russia" and all that jazz.

    Yeah, it brings to mind what one of those "experts" said, that the navy is so used to promising a 10 and delivering a 6. It hurts our strategic planning when we spend ages talking about carrier groups when we don't even have frigate production up to speed and destroyers exist solely on paper.
    I've been reading Kuznetsov's memoir on the war years ("Kursom k popede") and one of the interesting things he laments about is how the navy had trouble with finding its place thoughout the early years of the conflict. They had invested in the wrong ship classes and neglected cooperation with the rest of the armed forces. A great example was how he talked about the navy needing a huge number of minesweepers that had to be jury-rigged from all kinds of incompatible ships because the naval construction plans of the 30s completely ignored minesweepers in favour of getting back to larger ships. They ended up being bottled up by minefields and losing more ships than they should have. Another good point was the realization they had early on that the Navy would have to be a junior partner and act like it, throwing its resources to support the army's flanks and maintain shipping lanes.

    Great book for anybody looking for a nice read. Lots of little nifty stuff you don't think about like river flotillas and the organization of several evacuations.
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    medo

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  medo on Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:31 am

    22800 project is in the same class as Buyan-M. It is only a question, if this new project is designed to operate on the open sea or is river-sea class as Buyan-M is. If it is open sea class, than it will be more suitable for Baltic, Northern and Pacific fleets than Buyans, which is good for Black Sea and Caspian fleets.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:44 pm

    AFAIK there were never any plans to buy Buyan-Ms for anything other than the BSF and Caspian Flottila, so yeah, 22800s could have a role here indeed.
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    artjomh

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  artjomh on Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:53 pm

    flamming_python wrote:AFAIK there were never any plans to buy Buyan-Ms for anything other than the BSF and Caspian Flottila, so yeah, 22800s could have a role here indeed.

    And yes, Project 20380 corvettes are being built both in St-Petersburg and in K-n-A. There is literally nothing preventing Zеlenodolsk from licensing the project 20361 from being built in either St.-Petersburg or Kaliningrad.

    Nothing... other than Zelenodolsk greed and Almaz's desire to get in on that sweet gravy train.
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    2SPOOKY4U

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:09 am

    Our corvette situation is so fucked up its unbelievable.

    We have Buyans, Buyan-M, Steregushi, Gepard, and all sorts.

    We need one, not companies trying to get on the gravy train.

    At least frigate wise, it is not so bad with Gorshkov and Grigorovich, although I do not see why we need two classes.

    Destroyers seem ok, if a bit nonexistent at this time.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:25 am

    Project 22800 will become the universal corvette when it arrives. Buyan is a vessel only usable in gentle waters, like the Caspian, so that single design isn't enough. Gepard seems to be mostly for export, and Stere is more frigate than corvette. 

    I think the same thing for the larger frigates...don't forget they are going to two different locations. 

    22800 will take over from the Grigorovich.

    Glyph

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Glyph on Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:52 pm

    Mike E wrote:Project 22800 will become the universal corvette when it arrives. Buyan is a vessel only usable in gentle waters, like the Caspian, so that single design isn't enough. Gepard seems to be mostly for export, and Stere is more frigate than corvette. 

    I think the same thing for the larger frigates...don't forget they are going to two different locations. 

    22800 will take over from the Grigorovich.


    I thought Sarsar being replacement for Buyan?
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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:56 am

    Glyph wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Project 22800 will become the universal corvette when it arrives. Buyan is a vessel only usable in gentle waters, like the Caspian, so that single design isn't enough. Gepard seems to be mostly for export, and Stere is more frigate than corvette. 

    I think the same thing for the larger frigates...don't forget they are going to two different locations. 

    22800 will take over from the Grigorovich.
    I thought Sarsar being replacement for Buyan?
    I'm not sure what is the replacement of Buyan, but Project 22800 will be it's rough water alternative.

    Glyph

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Glyph on Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:57 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Glyph wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Project 22800 will become the universal corvette when it arrives. Buyan is a vessel only usable in gentle waters, like the Caspian, so that single design isn't enough. Gepard seems to be mostly for export, and Stere is more frigate than corvette. 

    I think the same thing for the larger frigates...don't forget they are going to two different locations. 

    22800 will take over from the Grigorovich.
    I thought Sarsar being replacement for Buyan?
    I'm not sure what is the replacement of Buyan, but Project 22800 will be it's rough water alternative.

    Interesting

    It just a corvette, having two classes is not ending of the world.

    Thanks.
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    zg18

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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  zg18 on Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:56 am

    New corvette for the Navy



    Russia’s first new class corvette of Project 22800 for the naval forces will be laid down by the end of the current year, and the Navy will get a total of 18 such ships

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/july-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2866-russian-navy-to-get-18-new-project-22800-corvettes-to-supplement-buyan-m-corvettes.html

    It will also have navalized version of Pantsir-S1 Air defense system.
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    Project Canada

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:04 pm

    correct me if im wrong but I dont see any landing pad for a helo or dont it have one?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:27 pm

    Project Canada wrote:correct me if im wrong but I dont see any landing pad for a helo or dont it have one?

    This is pic of a different ship.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:31 am

    zg18 wrote:New corvette for the Navy

    Pr. 12300 Missile-Gun Boat apparently

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:30 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    zg18 wrote:New corvette for the Navy

    Pr. 12300 Missile-Gun Boat apparently


    Hmm Visby corvette has displacement of 640t and her weaponry is quite impressive:
    So in case of 22800 (on pic is 12300 with displacement 465t so about half of planed corvette) all what Visby was to have can be actually mounted and range increased by some extra miles.


    Armament:

    1 × Bofors 57 mm Mk3
    8 × RBS15 Mk2 AShM
    4 × 400 mm torpedo launchers for Type 45 torpedoes
    Mines and depth charges
    Provision for but not fitted with
    2 × 6 127 mm ALECTO anti-submarine rocket launchers (cancelled)
    12 × Umkhonto SAM(cancelled)

    Aviation facilities: Helicopter pad

    Range: 2500 nmi
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:13 am

    And maybe Project 22500 is going to be basis for new corvette?

    Looks like all-inclusive artillery, Kalibrs, Paket helo, CIWS ... and displacement in 950tons class...




    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/22500-skr/

    http://www.severnoe.com/proposals/naval/22500/

    ult

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  ult on Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:59 am

    From the interview with Director General of Zelenodolsk Plant - the first ship was laid down by the Pella shipyard. The new project will be built by multiple shipyards and Zelenodolsk (22631, 22160) wants to be one of them.

    http://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/147574/
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:01 pm

    ult wrote:From the interview with Director General of Zelenodolsk Plant - the first ship was laid down by the Pella shipyard. The new project will be built by multiple shipyards and Zelenodolsk (22631, 22160) wants to be one of them.

    http://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/147574/

    I hope instead of Buyan kind of rocket platform this will be small corvette - like 22500 -> better AAD then Buyans ir 22160 (Pantsir M vs Gibka) , ASW unlike both of predecessors and helo. Thus universal and cheap stop-gap for all fleets. For Black Sea/Baltic or Caspian will do just fine
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:31 am

    Laying down of the first two Project 22800 warships will happen at the Pella shipyard on the 24th of December.
    The names will be Uragan and Taifun. The ships will enter service in 2017 and 2018.

    The news will appear in the press shortly.

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