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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

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    NationalRus
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  NationalRus on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:12 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:first i tought they deployed the mi-24p only to gourd the air base and that was ok but they use them for CAS... even the fucking gun is static... i have no idea why they dont use actaully modern flexible combat helicopters for gods sake get 4 mi-24 to gourd the air base and deploy 4 mi-28n's for CAS or at least the mi-24VM's only a mather of time befor we lose one if they get deployed like that 5m of the ground with all the heavy 14mm and bigger MG's the terrorists have on the ground

    Not. Russian. Helicopter. Or. Crew. Doing. CAS.

    Jesus... No

    give me a qoute from MOD confirming that or fuck off

    AH64D loads:

    16 AGM-114A/L/M/K Hellfires used aganist armor heavy enemy, never used with 16 AGM114N since they carry thermobaric warhead and are used in different load mix.

    8 Hellfires of any type and 38 rockets used for variety of targets, with anti-armor emphasis.

    76 HE rockets. This load is ideal for suppressing enemy ground forces or anti-infantry duty and providing Close Air Support to infantry.

    38 HE Hydra rockets, 4 Hellfires and external fuel tank, most common actual combat load for Apache.

    Naturally any mix of these is possible, even 4 external fuel tanks (as demonstrated by Israelis few times during rapid deployment), however you will never see Apache flying CAS carrying only Hellfires, that never happened nor it ever will. In each load it carries full load for its gun naturally 1200 rounds. So, that your idea of CAS is quite far from reality, noone spends ATGMs on CAS unless target is armor, high value target or is endangering your troops in some unusual way which can be dealt only with ATGM.

    Photos of some modern and highly capable attack helicopters carrying "useless" unguided rockets:

    are you stupid didnt you got what i said? show me Hydra attacks over enemy territory FULL of hundreds maybe thausends of troops in a small area who have also hundreds of heavy MG's at ther disposal???? i think Saudis this that a couple of times and lost at least 1 AH-64 as i remeber quite fast.

    the strategic situation on the ground is not like afghanistan were the AH-64 at best hunt 2 dozen taliban with maybe one DSHK at the best, with modern electronic HUD sights for the rocket flyight path of the hydras, does the mi-24p's have them to??

    and i NEVER claimed the cary only hellfires! qoute me saying that or fuck off stop putting words in my mouth that i didnt use! and they use hellfires to even pick out single trucks or small groups hell they use GBU-12 on littel units in afghanistan if needed as CAS if they pin down a american force.

    we got OLD helicopters from the late 80's flying near suicidal missions on extrem low levels above hundreds of enemy terrorists with A LOT of heavy weaponary in small operational zones = FACT already on the videos posted several of the hinds got hit by small arms fire already its pure LUCK that at no of this positions ther were flying over ther were a ZPU, Zu-23 or KPV ther

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:23 am

    NationalRus wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:first i tought they deployed the mi-24p only to gourd the air base and that was ok but they use them for CAS... even the fucking gun is static... i have no idea why they dont use actaully modern flexible combat helicopters for gods sake get 4 mi-24 to gourd the air base and deploy 4 mi-28n's for CAS or at least the mi-24VM's only a mather of time befor we lose one if they get deployed like that 5m of the ground with all the heavy 14mm and bigger MG's the terrorists have on the ground

    Not. Russian. Helicopter. Or. Crew. Doing. CAS.

    Jesus... No

    give me a qoute from MOD confirming that or fuck off

    AH64D loads:

    16 AGM-114A/L/M/K Hellfires used aganist armor heavy enemy, never used with 16 AGM114N since they carry thermobaric warhead and are used in different load mix.

    8 Hellfires of any type and 38 rockets used for variety of targets, with anti-armor emphasis.

    76 HE rockets. This load is ideal for suppressing enemy ground forces or anti-infantry duty and providing Close Air Support to infantry.

    38 HE Hydra rockets, 4 Hellfires and external fuel tank, most common actual combat load for Apache.

    Naturally any mix of these is possible, even 4 external fuel tanks (as demonstrated by Israelis few times during rapid deployment), however you will never see Apache flying CAS carrying only Hellfires, that never happened nor it ever will. In each load it carries full load for its gun naturally 1200 rounds. So, that your idea of CAS is quite far from reality, noone spends ATGMs on CAS unless target is armor, high value target or is endangering your troops in some unusual way which can be dealt only with ATGM.

    Photos of some modern and highly capable attack helicopters carrying "useless" unguided rockets:

    are you stupid didnt you got what i said? show me Hydra attacks over enemy territory FULL of hundreds maybe thausends of troops in a small area who have also hundreds of heavy MG's at ther disposal???? i think Saudis this that a couple of times and lost at least 1 AH-64 as i remeber quite fast.

    the strategic situation on the ground is not like afghanistan were the AH-64 at best hunt 2 dozen taliban with maybe one DSHK at the best, with modern electronic HUD sights for the rocket flyight path of the hydras, does the mi-24p's have them to??

    and i NEVER claimed the cary only hellfires! qoute me saying that or fuck off stop putting words in my mouth that i didnt use! and they use hellfires to even pick out single trucks or small groups hell they use GBU-12 on littel units in afghanistan if needed as CAS if they pin down a american force.

    we got OLD helicopters from the late 80's flying near suicidal missions on extrem low levels above hundreds of enemy terrorists with A LOT of heavy weaponary in small operational zones = FACT already on the videos posted several of the hinds got hit by small arms fire already its pure LUCK that at no of this positions ther were flying over ther were a ZPU, Zu-23 or KPV ther

    I would not get Master degree in IT field if i was stupid, so no, i am not stupid, and yes i did get what you said, however its complete...BS. I am sorry to tell you this but you are so far from reality when its about actual combat that i am 100% sure you gather your ideas from Battlefield 4, no offense. If you think someone is flying around firing 140.000USD AGM 114s all day long you are badly mislead (latest order by Lebanon and Iraq).











    MH60L DAP - fully capable gunship version of what people like you call "Black Hawk"

    http://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/afghanistan-conflict/hydra-rockets-rock-taliban/817399134001/



    Agusta Westland Apache using Hydras in Afganistan



    Gulf war image 1991. Each helicopter is armed with a pair of 19-round launchers for 2.75-inch folding-fin aerial rockets; the helicopter at right is also carrying eight AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. U.S. Department of Defense photo

    "On January 14, Gen. Cody’s unit was ordered to deploy with nine Apaches and a Blackhawk support helicopter. The attacking unit flew from King Fahd Airbase to King Khalid Military City. After refueling, the raiders resumed their flight northwest at low altitude to a town called Al-Jawf, Arabic for “starting point.” This small airfield was approximately an hour’s flying time south of Arar. Each Apache was armed with eight Hellfire missiles, 19 Hydra 2.75-inch rockets and 800 to 1,000 rounds of 30-millimeter ammunition. Hydra 70 flechette rockets and the 30-millimeter chain guns were used against anti-aircraft gun positions guarding the radar sites, as the Apaches moved to within 4,000 meters of the positions. The Apaches destroyed every piece of radar equipment at each site, shattering buildings and vans. Gen. Cody’s wingman took enemy fire, and with three bullet holes through the rotor blades continued to fly the aircraft." - http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/gulf-war-20th-apache-raid/

    Amonts of Hydra 70s being ordered is immense, huge, mind blowing i wonder why, i guess thats coz they are not being used right? - http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hydra70-rockets-from-cutbacks-to-the-future-of-warfare-02120/

    "Sept 15/14: Multi-year buy. General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GD-OTS) in Williston, VT wins a $58 million firm-fixed-price contract, with options, for Hydra-70 rocket buys from FY 2014 through FY 2018. It includes rockets, warheads, motors and containers, and all funds are committed immediately. Work will be performed in Williston, VT (71%), and Camden, AR (29%), with an estimated completion date of Sept 30/20. Bids were solicited via the Internet, with 2 received (W31P4Q-14-C-0154)."

    "June 15/11: FY 2011. A $286 million cost-plus contract, as the FY 2011 option exercise for Hydra-70 production. Work will be performed in Burlington, VT, and Camden, AZ, with an estimated completion date of Sept 30/15. One bid was solicited with one bid received (W31P4Q-11-C-0190… we think they meant W31P4Q-10-C-0190)."


    Now lets see how Apache for an example flies during CAS:







    Pilot describing FIRST AH64 strike in Desert Storm, mix of Hydras and Hellfires used.

    "HUD sights for the rocket flyight path of the hydras" - like in Battlefield? Nope, but lets see...



    AH64A flew thousands of missions in Iraq, in both wars in Iraq actually, and it faced far greater threats than Mi25P is atm in Syria and guess what they did fine. Also AH64A is not some kind of mythical spaceship, its marginally better equiped than Mi24P, they were produced between 1981. till 1989. around 700 of them, same era as those AH64As are.

    Do not reply please i dont have stomach for this.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:44 am

    Siempre_Leal wrote:What type of ordanance(sp) does this?


    Apparently there is confirmation from the field that in this video instead of Smerch based clusters its actually was 9M218 122mm Unguided Rocket Projectile
    with Shaped-Charge Fragmentation Submunition Scattering Warhead.

    More about it: http://www.splav.org/en/arms/grad/m218.asp



    "The 9M218 is a state-of-the-art 122mm unguided rocket projectile fitted with 45 shaped charge fragmentation submunitions scattering warhead. The 25 kg warhead features 45 submunitons that can pierce 100-to-120mm of homogenous armor. It has been designed to engage soft-skinned armored targets such as infantry combat vehicles (ICVs), armored troops carrier (ATCs) and/or self-propelled howitzers (SPHs) as well as manpower, helicopters and aircraft on landing runways. The rocket projectile can engage targets at ranges of up to 30,000 meters operating at temperatures between -50-degree to +50-degree Celsius. The new rocket motor provides 50 percent more range compared with legacy Grad projectiles. The 9M218 rocket projectile was developed and produced by Splav for the upgraded Grad-1, now Tornado-G, multiple launch rocket system."

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  kvs on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:48 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    Agreed, let's compare photos of impacts of the FAB-500-M54 that failed to explode and the alleged 3M-14 crater:

    FAB-500-M54 that failed to explode, and it's crater.






    Compared to the alleged ground impact of the Kalibr 3M-14 cruise missile and it's crater.




    And we have a problem here. The 3M-14 is much heavier munition at 1,400 kg, compared to FAB-500-M54's total weight of 500 kg, and 3M-14 is also powered with it's own engine allowing it to fly at transonic speed. We have to also look at the soil and how it would affect a munition (that failed to explode) impact crater. With this global map of soil profiles, you'll find that Syria, and Iran have similar soil profiles: an Aridisol/Entisol mix:



    1.) So with those facts presented (assuming both failed to explode), why would a munition (FAB-500-M54 at 500 kg) that's virtually 1/3rd of the weight of another munition (3M-14 at 1,400 kg), that's happens to be free-fall bomb (compared to the transonic speed of of 3M-14), make a deeper and larger impact crater when the soil profiles of both Syria and Iran are very similar (Aridisol/Entisol mix)?

    2.) What happened to the other 3 craters?

    All the claims and "evidence" supplied so far are a joke and your analysis is right on target. I think the lost missiles number is pulled
    straight from the Pentagon's collective ass:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/30/balkans6

    So officially about 15% of Tomohawks fail. Hmmm. 26 x 0.15 = 3.9 or close to 4. Gosh, what a coincidence.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:55 am

    kvs wrote:So officially about 15% of Tomohawks fail.   Hmmm.   26 x 0.15 = 3.9 or close to 4.   Gosh, what a coincidence.

    Spot on respekt

    Hehe....pre-emptive attack on the competition's product

    PS

    post deserves a vote, but I already used mine today...will upvote tomorrow


    Erk wrote:South Front update.

    Thanks...interesting take on the wider picture

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:35 am

    One thing I would agree with NationalRus regarding all of this is that the Mi-24 varient should have been different variant. One with a rotating turret as it would pose far better against running soft targets than the fixed gun. Something like Mi-24VM or just Mi-24V would suffice.

    I imagine they wont even bother bringing these back to Russia afterwards and just hand them to Syria.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:35 am

    A couple of snapshots from one of the videos of the Mi-24's in the latest fighting....can't say for sure but it looks like they have a gatling gun instead of the side mounted twin 30mm cannon of the Mi-24P....so chances are they're Sy-AF Mi-25's



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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:36 am

    sepheronx wrote:One thing I would agree with NationalRus regarding all of this is that the Mi-24 varient should have been different variant.  One with a rotating turret as it would pose far better against running soft targets than the fixed gun.  Something like Mi-24VM or just Mi-24V would suffice.

    I imagine they wont even bother bringing these back to Russia afterwards and just hand them to Syria.

    I dont think many, if any Mi24V remain to this day in service, at least not in their initial variant. Mi24P was chosen coz of powerful gun most likely and fact they are older part of the fleet but still young enough to be operated without having to perfom major repairs every 10h of flight.

    I dont think they will be hauled back to Russia either, but you never know.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:31 am

    Anybody remember this Very Happy

    http://dearputin.com/

    Dear President Putin,

    As members of the global reality-based community, we’d like to extend our appreciation and support for the Russian Federation’s decision to provide humanitarian and military assistance to Syria, its armed forces and its democratically elected leader, President Bashar al-Assad, in their fight against international US-backed terrorists. (.........)

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:54 am


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  auslander on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:58 am

    Militarov wrote:

    This is what is known as a world of hurt in a can.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:00 am

    ShahryarHedayatiSHBA wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    ShahryarHedayatiSHBA wrote:
    The news about crashed object has been confirmed by Islamic republic news agency...
    http://www.irna.ir/fa/News/81789206/

    we need the debris's photo.

    and is there any more info on how many craters or mysterious explosions ?

    No more info available yet.

    ShahryarHedayatiSHBA,

    Since you are from Iran, can you please dig out and post (a translation please) the news story about the time that at least an Iranian school kid got killed while playing with a "US" cruise missile that had crashed in southwest Iran.

    While you are at it, I'll try to write a post on the topic of munition failures (e.g., of Tomakawks and Mark 82).

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    It's a drone

    Post  Chersonesus on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:14 am

    It is amusing to see how persistent the Iranian tool's scam has been. A quick look at the website he originally linked to mentions the impact was caused by a drone, and it has nothing to do with cruise missiles.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:34 am

    He posted a link I don't see how that makes it a scam.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  max steel on Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:41 am

    Mi-24 dangerously launching flares everywhere in case a manpad is around. Respect. Sounds like  liver eating buddy on the radio just wet his pants.

       





    Last edited by max steel on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  jhelb on Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:24 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    While you are at it, I'll try to write a post on the topic of munition failures (e.g., of Tomakawks and Mark 82).

    Morpheus, do you remember this great missile called Kh 90 (air to surface missile) that was developed in the USSR?

    Any idea why it was scrapped? With a range of 3000 kms it would have been of great value in the Syria conflict

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:08 pm

    max steel wrote:
    Russian missile 3M-54 Klub  fly like a Tomahawk until they are 20-30 miles out then they fire a solid booster and accelerate to 2.9 mach with terminal maneuvers if these work as advertised they are MUCH better than  Block 4 Tomahawks except for loiter and seek.

    Well that's anti ship variant.

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus, do you remember this great missile called Kh 90 (air to surface missile) that was developed in the USSR?

    Any idea why it was scrapped? With a range of 3000 kms it would have been of great value in the Syria conflict

    It appears too ambitious for its time, along with Meteorit-A. Plus Russian already choose Kh-101.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:16 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    While you are at it, I'll try to write a post on the topic of munition failures (e.g., of Tomakawks and Mark 82).

    Morpheus, do you remember this great missile called Kh 90 (air to surface missile) that was developed in the USSR?

    Any idea why it was scrapped? With a range of 3000 kms it would have been of great value in the Syria conflict  

    jhelb,

    I certainly remember Kh-90/GEhLA. Here is a picture of it.




    My appraisal of the range of Kh-90 is much larger that the value you suggested. It's also an scramjet-powered system. My assessment is that if it got cancelled, that would be due to the fact that Russia has much more advanced systems in service, which is a given in itself.

    What we see does not define the extent of what exists. I have written a lot, on this forum, on this principle.

    One of the examples that I usually use is based on the fact that before the Great Patriotic War, MSM was under the impression that the top Russian tank was BT-7 (which was extremely modern only by the "Western" standards), and only recently we have found out that during that war even the production IS-4 hyper-modern tank had entered the Russian arsenal. During the coming decades, we'll still be finding out about similar more exotic facts about that war.

    BT-7:



    IS-3




    IS-4:



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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  Project Canada on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:00 pm

    msm still cant get enough of Kalibr missiles landing on Iran propaganda, now Ash Carter confirms US has indications missiles landing on Iranian soil Rolling Eyes

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:14 pm


    "Russian Jets Carry Out Record 67 Sorties Against ISIL Targets in Syria"

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151009/1028268881/russia-airsdtrike-syria.html#ixzz3o4mZ2Ygh

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:25 pm

    Project Canada wrote:msm still cant get enough of Kalibr missiles landing on Iran propaganda, now Ash Carter confirms US has indications missiles landing on Iranian soil Rolling Eyes

    Of course they "landed" in Iran because had they "landed" in Iraq someone might ask about physical evidence to be provided since USA is already present there...

    Butthurt beyond belief, although nobody expects X-Box management to sing praises to PlayStation.

    I have seen many cruise missile crash site pics back in my day, lost, crashed, shot down, self destructed... but not a single one of them even resembled that "evidence" from Iran yesterday, so I call total BS on that one




    Of course, it might also have something to do with this little detail that German media astutely observed:


    NATO Lost Orientation After Russia’s Military Operation in Syria

    Russian involvement in Syria made NATO lose its positions in the Middle East and weakened the alliance, DWN wrote.


    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151009/1028263550/nato-lost-orientation-russia-operation-syria.html

    Russia's sudden military operation in Syria caught NATO off guard, DWN wrote. Even the New York Times admitted that NATO is weakened, but struggling to make an impression that it still is influential in the region.

    According to DWN, NATO’s problem is the agreement between Russian President Vladimir Putin and US President Barack Obama to cooperate in Syria.

    The newspaper referred to a phone call between US Secretary of State John Kerry and Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergei Lavrov that took place Thursday. The two foreign ministers spoke about possible resolution of the Syrian crisis, the need to prevent accidents in the Syrian airspace as well as coordination of efforts in the fight against ISIL and other terrorist groups.

    NATO has nothing to do but to watch the situation from the side. That is why it seeks to at least show its strength in the Baltics, deploying its military advisers there.  However, a few hundred military experts will not particularly impress Russian President Vladimir Putin, DWN wrote.

    According to the newspaper, NATO leadership has apparently lost its track and does not have any clear picture of how the complicated relationship between the alliance and Russia will develop.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  max steel on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:35 pm

    Russian missile 3M-54 Klub  fly like a Tomahawk until they are 20-30 miles out then they fire a solid booster and accelerate to 2.9 mach with terminal maneuvers if these work as advertised they are MUCH better than  Block 4 Tomahawks except for loiter and seek.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:45 pm

    Quite a way to get attention lol! lol!

    http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/09/poroshenko-russia-is-destabilizing.html

    The Video (in Russian ?) https://youtu.be/11JKyRF7ILw

    Peter Poroshenko today talked to journalists, well how did he talk - there were three bodies nodding their heads, asking questions, to which Poroshenko already had written down the answers. But it didn't smell of journalism, perhaps of alcohol, because Poroshenko said "Russia is destabilizing the situation in the Islamic state".

    Poroshenko: "Nothing will work out. Everyone knows well the role of Russia as a destabilizing factor in the Islamic State, Syria, Ukraine and other places."

    That person called a journalist, instead of drinking water, should have asked: "Where, where is it destabilizing the situation?"

    Poroshenko:

    "In the Islamic state"

    "In the Islamic state"

    No more drinks for him.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:10 pm

    Project Canada wrote:msm still cant get enough of Kalibr missiles landing on Iran propaganda, now Ash Carter confirms US has indications missiles landing on Iranian soil Rolling Eyes

    The burden of proof is on them then. Judging by the comments sections of various media's (even Iran's), they don't believe a word of it. Till proof is provided, we can all comment on how it is absolute pure butthurt the US are. This doesn't come as a surprise as they are probably trying (real hard) to hide away the hospital strike in Afghanistan by saying "Oh look, Russia lost 4 cruise missiles in Iran!" without providing a point of evidence. US has already blocked all attempts at an investigation on the hospital strike, so they are going to do what they can to hide it from the public.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #3

    Post  zg18 on Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:11 pm



    Su-34 operations near Raqqa and Aleppo

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