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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

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    Akula971
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Akula971 on Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:24 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    Akula971 wrote:
    What is this 'neo-slave holding system' that we are discussing here ?? I fail to see what has changed. Please someone help me out.

    I can explain, sort of, but only in the form of a history lesson, so please excuse if this is essentially all known to you, and anybody else, which I am sure it is.
    I admit that I had not heard this specific phrase used until Dubovoy used it a few days back. I presume he is saying that this became a war for business interests, not the people. It is of course possible to say that if some oligarch gets rich, then commerce is working and we all, or most of us, have jobs and increase our standard of living, essentially normal capitalism, something I am part of with all my shares in ventures in Siberia...  However, the issue that some have seen is that of the existance of oligarchs, not of capitalism per se in some form. The west once had oligarchs, normally called plutocrats back in the days, the Vanderbilts and Rockefellers etc. These were like old style medieval barons and their workers bonded laborers, slaves in all but name, and with the ability to move from one "slave" owner to another, or none, but then have no work and your life will quickly slip down the sewer in societies with no safety net. Not all these oligarch/plutocrats were scum, but the philinthropists were rare. With the rise of socialism, in different forms, and trade unions, the plutocrats needed to fade into the background and change their ways. Today they still exist to an extent, Bill Gates was essentially a plutocrat, but not some "robber baron" stamping the peasants faces into the ground, and mostly today the very large corporations are not owned by one individual, but groups, hedge funds etc. In 1991 when the state collapsed a number of very unscrupulous individuals, mostly with crimminal minds, took the opprtunity to steal state property and become very powerful and rich, the oligarchs. Some still exist and live on the riches they stole, others have risen over the years from the swamp they invest, particulary in Ukraine, probably the most corrupt country in the world. The oligarchs control peoples lives, and politicians, to an extent that simply does not exist in other countries. They in fact have become the politicians, Poroshenko for example and there is no normal life, everything is owned by one or other oligarch, it is medieval, it is one of the truely bad things that was destroyed in the 1917 revolution and has returned with a vengence. Some in Donbass see what happens and have made the conclusion that this war became to preserve the business interests of oligarchs and their friends, at the expence of the blood of those who fight and the population. This is a point that of course can be debated, but the fact of the matter is that some fighters do see this as a war for oligarchs, Mozgovoi said so openly and paid the price, which rather suggests he was wcorrect, otherwise why kill him. Others, like Dubovoy, are now saying in public what they once kept to themselves. Also remember that a few months back "Rusych" returned to Russia saying they were sick of what was happening in Donbass, so, I wonder what they were sick of. That these are fighters who are saying these things should cause people, particulary on military networks, to pay attention. The rants of sofa warriors, me included, count as nothing to the words of those who have fought and been wounded. Anybody can disagree with them of course, that is normal, but the fighters have, IMO, moral superiority.

    Thanks for taking the time to explain it brother, i appreciate that.

    Well Rusych (the members were said to be 'neo-nazis' but they fought well) was under the control of RRG Batman and we all know what happened to Batman (god bless his soul). Dubovoy's argument is correct. The 2 sides were merely played against one another. Sparta has been turned into a recon battalion, reduced in manpower. Somali and Slon mixed (thats Givi AND Zakharchenko combined into one). The chechens went back home, havent heard anything about Vostok or the Don Cossacks. Anyone who could put up a fight either left ( See Strelkov), was pacified (see said battalions) or was exterminated (see Mozgovoi).

    Well my personal take on this conflict is this :
    Russia wanted their own guy safe in Ukraine - they bailed him out
    Russia wanted to take Crimea - they took that out.

    People of UKRAINE wanted to reject the current government - they called for help.
    STRELKOV and the 300 volunters went to fight Ukraine (yup, ALL of Ukraine)
    These people held their ground - Russian people grew sympathetic to these people.
    NOW if these guys lost - Russia loses - Putin loses.
    So then it became Russia's problem (PROBLEM not war).

    Russia made sure that everyone played by their rules, they supplied weapons to NAF guys, along with training etc.
    Ukraine's SSU ( i think thats how they are called), Russian spetsnaz were all in touch
    Batman caught RuSpets doing shit in Novorossiya
    Batman is killed.

    Even today the people and soldiers are complaining that they lack the training to fight. You have people switching sides.
    The dude from Sparta went to fight along side Azov.

    Everyone who tried to take control of the situation (AFTER SLAVYANSK) has been killed or told to leave.
    Russia didn't want a war in Ukraine, they just wanted people to forget all about it.
    Now you have Syria, a quasi 'peace' in Ukraine.

    Russia runs both sides, they wont go to war even if Parashko or Washington put a gun to their heads. And THIS is the nature of war.
    In a way, yes - the people fighting the war have been betrayed.

    Only now do these videos make more sense :







    This is my understanding of these events - people MAY OR MAY NOT AGREE but something tells me, my stand and the stand made by many other people on this conflict is the same, including Dubovoys.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:01 pm

    A**wenuts claimed that Kyiv has already prepared 1.3 mil USD to buy Russian gas.

    https://eadaily.com/news/2015/10/03/yacenyuk-zayavil-chto-nashel-dengi-na-gaz-dlya-otopitelnogo-sezona

    The content in Russian.

    Киев будет иметь около $ 1,3 млрд для оплаты импорта природного газа, заявил на заседании Черновицкой областной государственной администрации премьер-министр Украины Арсений Яценюк.

    «Нам нужно пройти этот отопительный сезон. И на газ я уже деньги тоже собрал. Это позитивная новость. Ни много ни мало $ 1,3 млрд. То есть мы как-то пройдем», — заявил он.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:29 pm

    Falling for "equality, brotherhood" and "supernational" identity led to an anti-Russian revolution and war, under the leadership of people who openly called for destruction and dismantling of Russian nation, tradition and state. I can't help myself, I have to notice the irony of people calling themselves Russian patriots and nationalists while following a vehemently anti-Russian ideology. None of current Russian problems would be present had there been no Bolshevik revolution and rule. Socialist rule created anti-Russian policies, fabricated Ukraine in its present form and laid the groundwork for aggresive Ukrainization.

    Soviet times are over, not short enough were they, and E.Europe particularly Russia paid a horrible
    price. Such lessons are too pricy to be forgotten, and idealistic daydreaming without taking (human) reality into consideration will lead to similar tragedies. As in Rus principalities and revolutionary times, unity is the most valuable thing, and something your enemies target and want to exploit.

    Just a foreigner's perspective, with similar country history.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:37 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:Falling for "equality, brotherhood" and "supernational" identity led to an anti-Russian revolution and war, under the leadership of people who openly called for destruction and dismantling of Russian nation, tradition and state. I can't help myself, I have to notice the irony of people calling themselves Russian patriots and nationalists while following a vehemently anti-Russian ideology. None of current Russian problems would be present had there been no Bolshevik revolution and rule. Socialist rule created anti-Russian policies, fabricated Ukraine in its present form and laid the groundwork for aggresive Ukrainization.

    Soviet times are over, not short enough were they, and E.Europe particularly Russia paid a horrible
    price. Such lessons are too pricy to be forgotten, and idealistic daydreaming without taking (human) reality into consideration will lead to similar tragedies. As in Rus principalities and revolutionary times, unity is the most valuable thing, and something your enemies target and want to exploit.

    Just a foreigner's perspective, with similar country history.
    I'm not a Bolshevik and do not go with "internationalism" as, IMO, it is one of the midwives to the modern "political corrrectness" which is a disease that needs wiping out. I have posted before that the problems faced today were created by Lenin and Krushchev. However, I will not tolerate a return to what we see in this photo...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:44 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    SturmGuard wrote:Falling for "equality, brotherhood" and "supernational" identity led to an anti-Russian revolution and war, under the leadership of people who openly called for destruction and dismantling of Russian nation, tradition and state. I can't help myself, I have to notice the irony of people calling themselves Russian patriots and nationalists while following a vehemently anti-Russian ideology. None of current Russian problems would be present had there been no Bolshevik revolution and rule. Socialist rule created anti-Russian policies, fabricated Ukraine in its present form and laid the groundwork for aggresive Ukrainization.

    Soviet times are over, not short enough were they, and E.Europe particularly Russia paid a horrible
    price. Such lessons are too pricy to be forgotten, and idealistic daydreaming without taking (human) reality into consideration will lead to similar tragedies. As in Rus principalities and revolutionary times, unity is the most valuable thing, and something your enemies target and want to exploit.

    Just a foreigner's perspective, with similar country history.
    I'm not a Bolshevik and do not go with "internationalism" as, IMO, it is one of the midwives to the modern "political corrrectness" which is a disease that needs wiping out. I have posted before that the problems faced today were created by Lenin and Krushchev. However, I will not tolerate a return to what we see in this photo...

    When was the last time you were in the USA?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:45 pm

    Akula971 wrote:

    This is my understanding of these events - people MAY OR MAY NOT AGREE but something tells me, my stand and the stand made by many other people on this conflict is the same, including Dubovoys.
    All true, but to speak some truths about why they died, and also about Bezler, Petrovsky, Purgin and the threat over Dremov and others less well known, is to engage in war. The time is not right for that while Ukraine is not a settled issue, but some other day....

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:46 pm

    Only a strong country can be a successful country, having internal divisions is a sure path to ruin. Poverty and income disparity are unavoidable, and any violent or sudden attempt to artificially eradicate them causes far more long-term damage than it heals. A functioning civil society, rule of (harsh) law, meritocracy are path to progress and wellfare. Social conservatism and nationalism are in no way in direct opposition to such goals, whatever BS western NGO and "media" may be spouting.

    People with friendly rhetorics towards Ukrainians or current Ukrainian state are by definition hostile to Russia and Russians, since Ukraine and Ukrainians in their current form were conceived and conditioned to be anti-Russian.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:55 pm

    Will the DLPR postpone the local elections as demanded by Putin?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:58 pm

    franco wrote:

    When was the last time you were in the USA?
    Never, only Canada, but yes, I know America is not the land of milk and honey. For better or worse we had our revolution against the "gods", in America their revolution was more for "home rule" than against the status quo, no land and slave owners went to the guillotine in 1776, and perhaps that type revolution is yet to come for them, I don't know.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:People with friendly rhetorics towards Ukrainians or current Ukrainian state are by definition hostile to Russia and Russians, since Ukraine and Ukrainians in their current form were conceived and conditioned to be anti-Russian.

    So according to this logic Putin is unfriendly towards Russia?

    Lay off the crack pipe already. Rolling Eyes

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:01 pm

    Donbas becomes a frozen conflict;
    http://southfront.org/they-are-making-of-donbass-second-transnistria/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:02 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:Will the DLPR postpone the local elections as demanded by Putin?

    Please provide a link.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:05 pm

    New Donetsk Military Academy to train officers for the NAF starts with 125 cadets.

    http://southfront.org/first-125-cadets-of-donetsk-military-academy-took-oath-for-dpr-photos/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:07 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    SturmGuard wrote:People with friendly rhetorics towards Ukrainians or current Ukrainian state are by definition hostile to Russia and Russians, since Ukraine and Ukrainians in their current form were conceived and conditioned to be anti-Russian.

    So according to this logic Putin is unfriendly towards Russia?

    Lay off the crack pipe already. Rolling Eyes

    Putin is not friendly towards Ukraine. Actions speak louder than words, and it is blatantly obvious that RF decided to immediately act. Putin and his government have chosen a long-term, correct strategy in dealing with Ukraine.

    Which part of Crimean reunification, weapon, ammo supplies, direct armed support, Voentorg and Northern Wind would you describe as most friendly to Ukraine?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:08 pm

    franco wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:Will the DLPR postpone the local elections as demanded by Putin?

    Please provide a link.

    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/putin-and-merkel-agree-donbass-elections-poroshenko-odd-man-out/ri10175

    Russian president Vladimr Putin wants to reciprocate Chancellor Angela Merkel's plea: he wants to urge the Donbass rebels to postpone the date of their elections. The summit in Paris has shown that Putin does not agree to the secession of East Ukraine. Petro Poroshennko left the meeting unusually subdued.

    According to German and French sources, Russia's president Vladimir Puin will push for a cancellation of the local elections in areas controlled by the Donbass rebels, which are scheduled for mid October. Putin will insist that the elections be held as per the agreements in the Minsk Accord and be in conformity with Ukrainian law, Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Friday evening in Paris, after the meeting of the Normandy Group (France, Germany, Russia, Ukraine). French president Francois Hollande explained, that the elections and the implementation of the time schedule, agreed to in Minsk in February to satisfy the East Ukraine's demands, will now be delayed.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:11 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:Only a strong country can be a successful country, having internal divisions is a sure path to ruin. Poverty and income disparity are unavoidable, and any violent or sudden attempt to artificially eradicate them causes far more long-term damage than it heals. A functioning civil society, rule of (harsh) law, meritocracy are path to progress and wellfare. Social conservatism and nationalism are in no way in direct opposition to such goals, whatever BS western NGO and "media" may be spouting.

    People with friendly rhetorics towards Ukrainians or current Ukrainian state are by definition hostile to Russia and Russians, since Ukraine and Ukrainians in their current form were conceived and conditioned to be anti-Russian.
    Of course a country should be together and strong, but within the country, any country, there cannot be only one point of view. Those countries that have monolithic "the state is right" systems, whether in the old days as a monarchy and in more modern times as a dictatorship, are countries that have revolutions. In China the party is trying to circumvent that by giving people more freedom, tho I would say, are we all born as "state slaves" to be patronised by being given freedoms we should be born with.  

    You wrote this
    Social conservatism and nationalism
    So, some sort of "national socialism". I wonder if anybody tried that concept before.... Suspect

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:16 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    franco wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:Will the DLPR postpone the local elections as demanded by Putin?

    Please provide a link.

    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/putin-and-merkel-agree-donbass-elections-poroshenko-odd-man-out/ri10175

    Russian president Vladimr Putin wants to reciprocate Chancellor Angela Merkel's plea: he wants to urge the Donbass rebels to postpone the date of their elections. The summit in Paris has shown that Putin does not agree to the secession of East Ukraine. Petro Poroshennko left the meeting unusually subdued.

    According to German and French sources, Russia's president Vladimir Puin will push for a cancellation of the local elections in areas controlled by the Donbass rebels, which are scheduled for mid October. Putin will insist that the elections be held as per the agreements in the Minsk Accord and be in conformity with Ukrainian law, Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Friday evening in Paris, after the meeting of the Normandy Group (France, Germany, Russia, Ukraine). French president Francois Hollande explained, that the elections and the implementation of the time schedule, agreed to in Minsk in February to satisfy the East Ukraine's demands, will now be delayed.

    "According to French and German sources"
    And then Lavrov said that with Kiev refusing to implement Minsk by negotiating with the two Republics in regards to this, that Kiev had forced them to act unilaterally in setting the election dates. Remember that these are local elections for municipal government only in the Donbas.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:18 pm

    Of course, pluralism is a necessity to reach the goals I have outlined in my first post. Nice try Very Happy The social conservatism part was regarding the current anti-traditionalism and ultraliberalism propaganda prevalent in the West. And Hitlerites definitely weren't (just) "nationalist" (more like genocidal ultrachauvinists) or "socialist" actually.
    The point I was trying to make is that society evolution is a gradual, steady process in ideal case. A mature society is capable of governing itself through democracy while at the same time sensible enough to not fall for demagogues, agitators and populists, in other words, thinking about long-term prospects.


    Last edited by SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:25 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:Of course, pluralism is a necessity to reach the goals I have outlined in my first post. Nice try Very Happy The social conservatism part was regarding the current anti-traditionalism and ultraliberalism propaganda prevalent in the West.
    Well I would agree with that, tho with the caveat that the Church should never have temporal power again. Anybody can believe or not believe in whatever they want, and not feel coerced to pretend to believe in something they intellectually can never agree with.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:26 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    SturmGuard wrote:Of course, pluralism is a necessity to reach the goals I have outlined in my first post. Nice try Very Happy The social conservatism part was regarding the current anti-traditionalism and ultraliberalism propaganda prevalent in the West.
    Well I would agree with that, tho with the caveat that the Church should never have temporal power again. Anybody can believe or not believe in whatever they want, and not feel coerced to pretend to believe in something they intellectually can never agree with.

    Totally agree with you. Atheist myself.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:32 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:
    Putin is not friendly towards Ukraine. Actions speak louder than words, and it is blatantly obvious that RF decided to immediately act. Putin and his government have chosen a long-term, correct strategy in dealing with Ukraine.

    Which part of Crimean reunification, weapon, ammo supplies, direct armed support, Voentorg and Northern Wind would you describe as most friendly to Ukraine?

    I agree with the "actions speak louder than words" part but Putin also stressed several times that Ukraine is a brotherly nation and that he wants a united Ukraine (obviously without Crimea). That's the opposite of what you're saying, particularly the part about "what's good for Ukraine is bad for Russia".

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:38 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:Falling for "equality, brotherhood" and "supernational" identity led to an anti-Russian revolution and war, under the leadership of people who openly called for destruction and dismantling of Russian nation, tradition and state.

    The very spirit behind "Equality, brotherhood and supernational" is something like "hey I respect you and you respect me, let cooperate and move foward".

    I see nothing wrong with this because human is a social species. You cannot live without others.

    SturmGuard wrote:I can't help myself, I have to notice the irony of people calling themselves Russian patriots and nationalists while following a vehemently anti-Russian ideology. None of current Russian problems would be present had there been no Bolshevik revolution and rule.

    What are the problem you talk about and how is it connected with Bolshevism ?

    Amongst the Bolshevist there were Lenin, there were Stalin, and Trotsky, Kameniev, Zhivoniev, etc. Trotsky is a problem, yes, but why Lenin and Stalin ?

    SturmGuard wrote:Socialist rule created anti-Russian policies, fabricated Ukraine in its present form and laid the groundwork for aggresive Ukrainization.

    What is your understanding of socialism ? And socialist regime ?

    Marx promoted socialism, didn't he ?

    SturmGuard wrote:Soviet times are over, not short enough were they, and E.Europe particularly Russia paid a horrible
    price. Such lessons are too pricy to be forgotten, and idealistic daydreaming without taking (human) reality into consideration will lead to similar tragedies. As in Rus principalities and revolutionary times, unity is the most valuable thing, and something your enemies target and want to exploit.

    Just a foreigner's perspective, with similar country history.

    Soviet times are over because the USSR regime since Khruschyov became degenerated and corrupted, made USSR go further and further from socialism and Marxism. USSR degenerated down to a totalitarian regime which had nothing to do with Marx, Lenin and Stalin. And it had to die eventually, because nobody in the leadership of the CPSU wanted to cure it.

    The event of 1991 has two-side effect of Russia. First, it created a loophole for pro-US, anti-Russia shits to emerge, like under Boris Yeltsin. Second, the collapse of the degenerated old regime give a slight chance for the technocrats, industrialists, science leaders,... to rise and bring back a True Socialist Russia, if they manage to find a suitable leader.

    And indeed they found the leader. That is Putin.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  SturmGuard on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:40 pm

    Neutrality wrote:

    I agree with the "actions speak louder than words" part but Putin also stressed several times that Ukraine is a brotherly nation and that he wants a united Ukraine (obviously without Crimea). That's the opposite of what you're saying, particularly the part about "what's good for Ukraine is bad for Russia".

    Feasibility of current, jumping form of Ukrainians is rapidly running out. So is the time of current Kiev government. Statistics speak for themselves, and soon glorious heroic Ukrops will start remembering times of cheaper utilities, better services, higher wages, higher employment, living standards, better economy, net immigration. Or not. Well, happy EU integration then. Nope, not going to happen. But at least they can emigrate to West. NOT.


    ^you should read more about Lenin, his opinion of Russians and Russia, his arrival to Russia and climb to power, and the horrors of Revolution, Lenin and Stalin rule. After all, Lenin didn't revolt against Tzar's rule. I won't go further into off-topic since I have already hijacked the thread.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:21 pm

    Press-secretary of ex-Prez Yuschenko claimed that the West has abandoned and betrayed Ukraina.

    Harsh truth.

    http://infopolk.ru/1/V/news/1443862364#6c945777-f0d6-4201-b042-84104abba344

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #22

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:30 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Press-secretary of ex-Prez Yuschenko claimed that the West has abandoned and betrayed Ukraina.

    Harsh truth.

    http://infopolk.ru/1/V/news/1443862364#6c945777-f0d6-4201-b042-84104abba344


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