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    US Air-to-Air Missiles

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    GarryB
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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:57 pm

    Garry, but then with the advent of energetic all aspects short range AA missiles and helmet mounted sights, doesn't that mean an older fighter can go toe to toe with a 5th gen fighter in a dog fight?

    A large driving force behind stealth fighters was the helmet mounted sight and high off boresight AAMs.

    It is what kept the F-22 alive after the end of the cold war and the main driving force behind the F-35... the threat of the R-73 was a one all plane for plane situation... if the enemy can launch their AAM before your missile hits them there is a good chance both aircraft will be destroyed and the west could not afford to trade aircraft one for one.

    You are comparing 1980s R-27 with 1960s Vietnam era AIM-7 Sparrow. 1980s AIM-7M had a much better kill rate in the 1991 Gulf war.

    Not really... it was still being used against targets that generally were unaware they were being targeted.

    Another critical aspect is that Sparrow needs to continuously paint the target to guide the sparrow to hit that target... tha makes it an easy target for the much faster R-27P passive radar homing AAM.

    Well the pilot believes he physically dodged the Amraams - although was is not dark at the time, so I don't know how he might have seen the missiles in the first place?

    Rate of turn for a missile is pathetic compared with almost any aircraft for BVR missiles... this is because of the combination of small control surfaces and high speed... outmanouvering does not mean dogfighting... it just means turning inside an arc that the missile cannot manage.

    It is a problem with larger BVR missiles and a big reason why R-77 was fitted with its grid tail fins to allow harder turns in terminal guidance.


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    BlackArrow
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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  BlackArrow on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:00 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    The AIM-7M had a much better kill rate in GW1 because it was used to hit archaic 3rd or already outdated and very early 4th generation aircraft at best. The early R-27 was being utilized against super-maneuverable Su-27s and MiG-29s. Of course there is going to be a difference in how they perform against their targets.

    Yes, but the AIM-7M still worked though didn't it?
    Most of the aircraft that the Iraqi air force was using in Desert Storm were absolutely not archaic or outdated. MiG-23ML, MiG-29, MiG-25PD, Mirage F1IQ, Su-24, Su-25, all leading frontline types in the WArsaw Pact as well. Although, yes, they were equipped with inferior EW, ECM. That was Iraq's poor choice in choosing Soviet technology in the 1980s. Should have bought American?

    Werewolf
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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:35 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    The AIM-7M had a much better kill rate in GW1 because it was used to hit archaic 3rd or already outdated and very early 4th generation aircraft at best. The early R-27 was being utilized against super-maneuverable Su-27s and MiG-29s. Of course there is going to be a difference in how they perform against their targets.

    Yes, but the AIM-7M still worked though didn't it?
    Most of the aircraft that the Iraqi air force was using in Desert Storm were absolutely not archaic or outdated. MiG-23ML, MiG-29, MiG-25PD, Mirage F1IQ, Su-24, Su-25, all leading frontline types in the WArsaw Pact as well. Although, yes, they were equipped with inferior EW, ECM. That was Iraq's poor choice in choosing Soviet technology in the 1980s. Should have bought American?

    Yes, they were archaic, there were no MiG-29 equipped with a radar, the main MIG-29 was a trainer version, congrats you killed inferior army with trainer jets with massivley decreased capabilities.

    Ivan the Colorado
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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:41 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    The AIM-7M had a much better kill rate in GW1 because it was used to hit archaic 3rd or already outdated and very early 4th generation aircraft at best. The early R-27 was being utilized against super-maneuverable Su-27s and MiG-29s. Of course there is going to be a difference in how they perform against their targets.

    Yes, but the AIM-7M still worked though didn't it?
    Most of the aircraft that the Iraqi air force was using in Desert Storm were absolutely not archaic or outdated. MiG-23ML, MiG-29, MiG-25PD, Mirage F1IQ, Su-24, Su-25, all leading frontline types in the WArsaw Pact as well. Although, yes, they were equipped with inferior EW, ECM. That was Iraq's poor choice in choosing Soviet technology in the 1980s. Should have bought American?
    They were archaic in the way that they were not upgraded and nearly all those aircraft were heavily downgraded monkey models. Aircraft must be upgraded thoughout their lifespan in order to have them win dogfights or aerial superiority. Iraq's aircraft were not upgraded to the point where they could have been a threat to any coalition aircraft. The American aircraft were very well equipped with the newest tech enabling them to achieve aerial superiority without a struggle. However, as other countries have proven (notably Germany with their MiG-29s), an up to date Soviet fighters with a well trained pilots pose quite a serious threat to USAF birds. Sorry about bursting your bubble.

    BlackArrow
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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  BlackArrow on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:57 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    They were archaic in the way that they were not upgraded and nearly all those aircraft were heavily downgraded monkey models. Aircraft must be upgraded thoughout their lifespan in order to have them win dogfights or aerial superiority. Iraq's aircraft were not upgraded to the point where they could have been a threat to any coalition aircraft. The American aircraft were very well equipped with the newest tech enabling them to achieve aerial superiority without a struggle.  Sorry about bursting your bubble.

    Most equipment exported by the Soviet Union in the 1980s was 'downgraded' - another way of saying it was crap. But like I said that was there own fault for not buying American. Cool

    " However, as other countries have proven (notably Germany with their MiG-29s), an up to date Soviet fighters with a well trained pilots pose quite a serious threat to USAF birds."


    That didn't happen in real life though. How many MiG-29s were shot down by F-16s and F-15s in the last 20 years or so?

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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:02 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    They were archaic in the way that they were not upgraded and nearly all those aircraft were heavily downgraded monkey models. Aircraft must be upgraded thoughout their lifespan in order to have them win dogfights or aerial superiority. Iraq's aircraft were not upgraded to the point where they could have been a threat to any coalition aircraft. The American aircraft were very well equipped with the newest tech enabling them to achieve aerial superiority without a struggle.  Sorry about bursting your bubble.

    Most equipment exported by the Soviet Union in the 1980s was 'downgraded' - another way of saying it was crap. But like I said that was there own fault for not buying American. Cool

    " However, as other countries have proven (notably Germany with their MiG-29s), an up to date Soviet fighters with a well trained pilots pose quite a serious threat to USAF birds."


    That didn't happen in real life though. How many MiG-29s were shot down by F-16s and F-15s in the last 20 years or so?

    You fool really believe americans give to customers domestic versions and not downgraded stuff?

    You only fool yourself, it is a common doctrine and a very good one to export only downgraded stuff to other countries, it was always the case and will always be the case.

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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:15 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    They were archaic in the way that they were not upgraded and nearly all those aircraft were heavily downgraded monkey models. Aircraft must be upgraded thoughout their lifespan in order to have them win dogfights or aerial superiority. Iraq's aircraft were not upgraded to the point where they could have been a threat to any coalition aircraft. The American aircraft were very well equipped with the newest tech enabling them to achieve aerial superiority without a struggle.  Sorry about bursting your bubble.

    Most equipment exported by the Soviet Union in the 1980s was 'downgraded' - another way of saying it was crap. But like I said that was there own fault for not buying American. Cool

    " However, as other countries have proven (notably Germany with their MiG-29s), an up to date Soviet fighters with a well trained pilots pose quite a serious threat to USAF birds."


    That didn't happen in real life though. How many MiG-29s were shot down by F-16s and F-15s in the last 20 years or so?

    And how many aircrafts did US use with the assistance of AWACS against targets that didn't? How many Iraqi AWACS were used? How many of them had the datalinks that are on current Russian jets? What kind of setup were the MiG's? What kind of radar did they have installed? What kind of assistance did they get? How many of them were flying together in formation against US? How many ships did US use in order to help pilots track?

    It has never been a 1 on 1 and it is easily admitable that US does have good command and control systems where they can communicate and transmit data to each other. Iraq didn't have any of that. Majority of Iraq's equipment were quite old and still not even on same soviet level. If Iraq on the other hand had the AWAC's, the command and control datalinks and what not, then I bet it would have posed a serious threat. But as much as was known about Iraq's military (airforce and ground forces), they never quite recovered from the Iran/Iraq war era and were about on par in both Desert Storm and the 2003 Iraq war.

    Much like how old MiG-29's in Russian service are being phased out due to them also having inadequate avionics and other sensory and datalink capabilities. MiG-29M which started in the 80's had most to all of that. MiG-25's didn't and didn't get such datalink type equipment till the 80's when MiG-31's arrived and were able to share data with each other. By the early 2000's, mostly newer equipment that joined Russia had all of the same abilities but were in few numbers. Only recently did they get all that stuff.

    On paper, in terms of plane on plane, Soviet/Russian stuff would easily compete and trump the westerners equipment (and vice versa). But with all these additional and communication proved priceless for the Americans in various conflicts. And most see that as well. Now all MiG-29's of modern use (SMT, M2, UPG, etc) all have such equipment where they can communicate with ground radar, AWAC's, etc. Hence why India has proven quite capable, even in exercises (Su-30MKI vs Typhoon recently where MKI's won).

    As well, Su-24's and Su-25's are not meant for air to air engagement.

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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:29 am

    Yes, but the AIM-7M still worked though didn't it?

    More often it didn't work.

    Most of the aircraft that the Iraqi air force was using in Desert Storm were absolutely not archaic or outdated. MiG-23ML, MiG-29, MiG-25PD, Mirage F1IQ, Su-24, Su-25, all leading frontline types in the WArsaw Pact as well.

    Third rate export models... the Iraqi MiG-29s had technology comparable to late model previous generation aircraft and in rather smaller numbers than the Warsaw Pact had.

    Although, yes, they were equipped with inferior EW, ECM.

    Inferior? You mean none.

    That was Iraq's poor choice in choosing Soviet technology in the 1980s. Should have bought American?

    Hahahaha... yeah, the americans sell their best stuff to countries they invade.... Ask Iran.

    Most equipment exported by the Soviet Union in the 1980s was 'downgraded' - another way of saying it was crap. But like I said that was there own fault for not buying American.

    Not all crap... Konkurs can penetrate Abrams tanks... of course the Saudis wouldn't buy downgraded export models they will have gotten upgraded improved models the US Army can't even afford and they are still trashed by ancient Soviet ATGMs...

    That didn't happen in real life though. How many MiG-29s were shot down by F-16s and F-15s in the last 20 years or so?

    The MiG-29 has shot down thousands of western aircraft in testing and western forces spent long hours trying to develop tactics to deal with it as a threat... something the Iraqi and Serbian pilots did not get to learn from. Of course what the west learned is use AMRAAM and don't get within visual range of a MiG-29 when flown by a competent pilot...



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    higurashihougi
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    Re: US Air-to-Air Missiles

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:17 am

    BlackArrow wrote:That didn't happen in real life though. How many MiG-29s were shot down by F-16s and F-15s in the last 20 years or so?

    F-15 was defeated by Indian Su-30 in miliatry exercise.

    BlackArrow wrote:Most equipment exported by the Soviet Union in the 1980s was 'downgraded' - another way of saying it was crap. But like I said that was there own fault for not buying American. Cool

    Sad thing is that current Iraqi and Afghan regimes - puppet regime of the US - still buy AK, Mi-xxx, Su-xxx, RPGs... all by American money.

    Yes, the U.S. buys Mi and AK from Russia to equip their allies.

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