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    Syrian Air Defence Force

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    Austin

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    Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:55 pm

    Latest AW&ST says that Israel is worried with Syria getting BUK-M2 , Pantsyr-SE1 and Yakhont but are confident it can defeat it

    http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416207138&e=true

    Seems if war erupts in Syria it will put to test Russias latest AD against the EW might of Israel Air Force
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    runaway

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  runaway on Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:46 pm

    Austin wrote:Latest AW&ST says that Israel is worried with Syria getting BUK-M2 , Pantsyr-SE1 and Yakhont but are confident it can defeat it

    Seems if war erupts in Syria it will put to test Russias latest AD against the EW might of Israel Air Force

    The hardware mentioned is excellent, but they require professional and well trained, educated operators.
    And that has always been the arab dilema, they have had huge problems to use systems to their full capabilities. It seems that well balanced and good hardware is turned into deathtraps with low fear factor. As systems gets more advanced, i see little chance for them to break the spell.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:51 am

    As systems gets more advanced, i see little chance for them to break the spell.

    I agree... having a brand new shiny toy, and being able to use it effectively are two very different things.

    The arrival of new stuff means nothing as you need to uncrate it and train locals to use it effectively, and then deploy it and integrate it into the existing system and then get some practise in.

    This could take years... of course deploying many of the systems around Tartus with advisors and of course keeping no fly zones off the agenda at the UNSC will make a difference.

    Austin

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:14 am

    They ordered the system around 2-3 years back , so they would have taken the in between time of delivery for crew training and developing tactics etc

    If a war indeed happens this would be the first time NATO/Israel will be exposed to Russian latest SAM in BUK-M2E and Pantsyr, Plus i assume they would be having older SA-6,SA-3 , SA-13 and others.

    Now if the modern SAM Radar completely collapses in front of modern Israel EW equipment is a different matter.

    But if Syria cannot do a good job with the SAM that they have then they them self to blame.

    Austin

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:58 am

    Reading the AW&ST report , it seems Israel was preparing well to deal with SA-17 and Pantsir SAM that Syria will eventually get.

    Israel mastery over EW is quite well known , so much so they insisted having their own EW suite on F-35.

    I hope the SA-17 and Pantsyr has good ECCM capabilities and dont turn into a DoDo in front of very new Israel EW system.

    Austin

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:04 am

    Check videos of Syrian Army firing BUK-M2E in latest Exercise

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d89CA0eiFA

    Austin

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:44 am

    Israeli-Syrian Air and SAM Strength Analysis

    http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/081125_is_syria_air_sam.pdf

    Thanks to Mindstorm for providing it
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    GarryB

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:49 am

    Noticed a couple of mistakes... on slide 42 the AS-10 is SALH, not radio command or anti radar as shown, plus the AS-12 is several versions of the the Kh-25 and is anti radiation with a range of 40km, not a Kh-27 missile with a range of 60km.

    In fact the AS-10, and AS-7 and the AS-12 all refer to what later became the same missile... the Kh-25 in SALH, radio command, and anti radiation homing models.

    Interesting read however...
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    NickM

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  NickM on Thu May 09, 2013 7:42 pm

    And what were the Syrians able to achieve with their S 300 , BUK and Panstir ??

    The Israeli F 16s came and bombed the daylight out of them and this is what's gonna happen till kingdom comes.
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    TR1

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 09, 2013 11:31 pm

    NickM wrote:And what were the Syrians able to achieve with their S 300 , BUK and Panstir ??

    The Israeli F 16s came and bombed the daylight out of them and this is what's gonna happen till kingdom comes.
    SYria doesn't have S-300.

    Pantsir and Buk are relatively short range. Syria has few of them. Their AD radar network is in dissaray.
    Can you put 2 and 2 together, or do I have to spell it out for you?
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    NickM

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  NickM on Fri May 10, 2013 12:31 pm

    TR1 wrote: SYria doesn't have S-300.

    They do have S 300 . What they don't have is high level aptitude .

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150059#.UYzJoqIzMfl

    TR1 wrote:Pantsir and Buk are relatively short range.

    You mean the Israelis bombed them from another plant ?? Their F 16s flew into Syria and bombed them .

    TR1 wrote:Syria has few of them.


    How many do you want them to have ? A few hundred ....before they prove anything .

    TR1 wrote:Their AD radar network is in dissaray.

    Obviously . With outdated Pantsir , Buk , S 300 what more do you expect . Now some wise soul in this forum will write an entire script as to how only downgraded , export versions of Russian equipment are sold to 3rd world shitholes like Syria . And how these aholes fall for it .


    TR1 wrote:Can you put 2 and 2 together, or do I have to spell it out for you?

    First , come out from that little hole of yours , smell the coffee & get a grip and then if time permits maybe you can spell out for me .
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    Viktor

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Viktor on Fri May 10, 2013 1:23 pm

    NickM wrote:They do have S 300 . What they don't have is high level aptitude .

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150059#.UYzJoqIzMfl

    Israel has been screaming about Russia arming Syrians with S-300 for about 20 years till now. There where tens of thousands of

    articles about Syrian S-300 that if you now google you wont find anything but Syrian S-300.

    Only thing Syrians have is 36D6 EW radar of the S-300 system same as Georgia had and thats it. I would say one most likely but two could

    be possible and nothing more.


    NickM wrote:You mean the Israelis bombed them from another plant ?? Their F 16s flew into Syria and bombed them .

    And you know that F-16 flew in the Syria how?

    During the first bombing it was obvious but later acknowledge that they release their cruise missile from Libanon paying special

    attention to avoid concentration of Syrian air defense. It could be that this time is a same case and perhaps not because

    Syrian air defense took a serious beating during 2.5 year war with terrorists.


    NickM wrote:How many do you want them to have ? A few hundred ....before they prove anything .

    That would be nice. The more the merrier.

    NickM wrote:Obviously . With outdated Pantsir , Buk , S 300 what more do you expect . Now some wise soul in this forum will write an entire script as to how only downgraded , export versions of Russian equipment are sold to 3rd world shitholes like Syria . And how these aholes fall for it .

    Thing is that no one knows what happened down there.

    Syria now has BUK-M2 and Pancir-S1 and even Pechora-2M which are all modern weapons and other much less modern but in numbers

    but still no one can tell what happened.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  ali.a.r on Fri May 10, 2013 1:27 pm


    They do have S 300 . What they don't have is high level aptitude .

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150059#.UYzJoqIzMfl
    Thats hardly a reliable source. I did a quick google search (Note: quick Smile ) and they are the only media outlet saying that. Besides, if Syria does have S-300's, with their massive detection ranges, I doubt the Israelis would pull a stunt like that.
    You mean the Israelis bombed them from another plant ?? Their F 16s flew into Syria and bombed them .
    Short range systems with only a few dozen km range, cant be expected to protect against squadrons of fighters. Thats what bigger, longer range systems like the s-300 and s-400 are for, I believe.

    How many do you want them to have ? A few hundred ....before they prove anything .
    A dozen or two Pantsirs is hardly adequate.

    Obviously . With outdated Pantsir , Buk , S 300 what more do you expect . Now some wise soul in this forum will write an entire script as to how only downgraded , export versions of Russian equipment are sold to 3rd world shitholes like Syria . And how these aholes fall for it .
    I assume that you claim otherwise? I mean, I for one, dont see any reason why Russia would sell their best short range AD vehicle (or atleast the best version of it) to Syria, a troubled country, whose military's capabilities (or to be more precise, loyalty) is questionable. Thats just my logic.

    Oh and please, dont resort to cheap insults, and racist remarks when/if replying. This is a forum after all.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Viktor on Fri May 10, 2013 3:06 pm

    ali.a.r wrote:Besides, if Syria does have S-300's, with their massive detection ranges, I doubt the Israelis would pull a stunt like that.

    Well, Damask is only 40 km from Lebanon border and we all know Israel air force is flying unopposed in Lebanon airspace on daily basis.

    I think missiles where launched from there.

    Still Syria should have by now 1 full BUK-M2 regiment and 6 Pancir-S1 batteries which by itself should be more than enough to

    repel missiles too not just fighters. But on the other hand who knows what really happened there.

    ali.a.r wrote:assume that you claim otherwise? I mean, I for one, dont see any reason why Russia would sell their best short range AD vehicle (or atleast the best version of it) to Syria, a troubled country, whose military's capabilities (or to be more precise, loyalty) is questionable. Thats just my logic

    Agree. Thing is that Syria has refused to buy Russian weapons for to long. It settled with old non modernized one as it refused to

    admit 15 bin $ debt toward Russia which is legit hair of the former SSSR for previously delivered weapons. Once Russia dismissed

    Syrian debt, Syria placed orders. But it was to late. Had they been smarter they could have S-300 long before and familiarize with

    the system, build the infrastructure for it etc.



    ali.a.r

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  ali.a.r on Fri May 10, 2013 3:43 pm

    Well, Damask is only 40 km from Lebanon border and we all know Israel air force is flying unopposed in Lebanon airspace on daily basis.

    I think missiles where launched from there.

    Still Syria should have by now 1 full BUK-M2 regiment and 6 Pancir-S1 batteries which by itself should be more than enough to

    repel missiles too not just fighters. But on the other hand who knows what really happened there.

    True. But I think that if a S-300 system was available to the Syrians, and if it was protecting Dimishk (proper Arab way of saying it Smile ), then its radar should be able to cover the nearest IDF air bases as well. I mean its not like the IDF planes are landing and taking off from Lebanon. They originate from Israel proper, and a s-300 system located around Dimishk should detect f-15's and f-16's as soon as they go up.

    So another reason to think Syria doesnt have s-300's.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Viktor on Fri May 10, 2013 4:03 pm

    ali.a.r wrote:

    True. But I think that if a S-300 system was available to the Syrians, and if it was protecting Dimishk (proper Arab way of saying it Smile ), then its radar should be able to cover the nearest IDF air bases as well. I mean its not like the IDF planes are landing and taking off from Lebanon. They originate from Israel proper, and a s-300 system located around Dimishk should detect f-15's and f-16's as soon as they go up.

    So another reason to think Syria doesnt have s-300's.

    Well that part depends on the country topography and its scanning before placement of SAM systems and its reserve positions and radar

    systems.It is the first thing you do when planing air defense. Of course under hi intensity terrorist activity we can not know in what

    state is Syrian radar coverage and SAM but degradation is certain.

    Only thing Syria has is 36D6 radar and that one or few at most.


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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri May 10, 2013 6:44 pm



    You mean the Israelis bombed them from another plant ?? Their F 16s flew into Syria and bombed them .


    Not, it mean that, in this planet, Jamraya center at al-Hameh (target of both January and May attacks) is just about 16 km far from an Deir El Aachayer delivery point, clear ?

    IAF, using the compliancy - perhaps pressed by US ?.... - of a virtually neutral Nation, such as Lebanon, has conducted those attacks from a foreign air space without entering so in Syria; in this way Syrian air defenses and aircraft couldn't be employed or scrambled against them because this act would have been meanly "sold" at ONU as a plain aggression against a neutral nation (and presence of IAF's aircraft would have been, naturally, totally denied).
    It is the military corresponding of the act to hit someone in the face from behind the shoulders of a third person Razz .

    Practically the usual ,mean theatre of squalor and moral/legal double standards characterizing the management of offensive actions of Israel in ME.


    The targets for those aimed missions are, naturally, accurately selected in several months of slow IMINT and HUMINT operations (even more with the huge caos of latest years blooody civil war ) so that the consent for the "go" is provided to IAF only after that has been assured that no modern air defense defend a particular area.

    A similar missions is, in itself, technically trivial: when you are sure that no modern SHORAD defend a particular target all what you need to do is only to shot at it because very old SAM and SHORADS are incapable to engage any kind of ammunitions and political pressure prevent enemy air defenses and aircraft from engaging you in a foreign airspace Mad Mad

    A group of SU-24s armed with Х-29ТЭ could do the same mission much faster, much safer, and with much higher chances, for the delivered weapons, to overcome eventual air defences present in the area.



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    TR1

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 10, 2013 10:47 pm

    Man, Nick the clown keeps delivering.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat May 11, 2013 11:42 am

    There's no indication so far that the Syrian AD has been weakened significantly. Otherwise we would've seen at least Turkish and Israeli air support for their proxies in Syria.

    Hopefully they will receive the S-300. It's unclear whether Russia will deliver them or not. They're only saying they will honour previously agreed contracts, but they seem to have some sort of understanding with Israel about not delivering the S-300's
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    Viktor

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Viktor on Sat May 11, 2013 12:50 pm

    I remember seeing captured by the rebels 3D low altitude Chinese radar in Syria. I remember reading some PVO bases being overrun by the

    terrorists and about special attention rebels placed towards Syrian PVO bases. I dont know the extent to which they managed to

    damage Syrian PVO but 2.5 years of fighting must have done a significant affect. Besides it very constraining for PVO troops

    not being able to move freely because of roads blocked or area affected by battle and such as movement (and fast to) is essential for them.
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    NickM

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  NickM on Sat May 11, 2013 8:09 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:A group of SU-24s armed with Х-29ТЭ could do the same mission much faster, much safer, and with much higher chances, for the delivered weapons, to overcome eventual air defences present in the area.


    Only over the airspace of some 3rd world state . I hope you are not suggesting that Su 24s which are in any case obsolete can fly over NATO airspace un detected .

    What is the EW system on board the SU 24 ?

    Does it even have an AESA radar ?

    Are Russian AESA radars as evolved as the APG 77 ?

    MEADS provide full 360-degree coverage & also provides continuous on-the-move protection for maneuver forces. IRIS-T SL can eliminate the SU 24 from 30 kms away .
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat May 11, 2013 11:47 pm

    Viktor wrote:I remember seeing captured by the rebels 3D low altitude Chinese radar in Syria. I remember reading some PVO bases being overrun by the

    terrorists and about special attention rebels placed towards Syrian PVO bases. I dont know the extent to which they managed to

    damage Syrian PVO but 2.5 years of fighting must have done a significant affect. Besides it very constraining for PVO troops

    not being able to move freely because of roads blocked or area affected by battle and such as movement (and fast to) is essential for them.

    Some losses are to be expected in over 2 years of fighting but IMO so far they've been minor losses in the overall scheme of things.

    That said, the Syrian AD is largely equipped with older systems reinforced with some more modern equipment since 2007/08. But they do have a large force covering a relatively small area. Israel could establish local air superiority but it would require a major and large scale operation which isn't politically palatable at the moment. They have to calculate whether such an operation would lead to a major regional war.

    I was just reading the news and it seems the rebels are under heavy pressure on many fronts. If the situation continues in that direction, they're facing defeat without outside intervention....I wonder whether the latest bomb blasts in Turkey (near the Syrian border) will be used as a pretext for some sort of intervention...


    NickM wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:A group of SU-24s armed with Х-29ТЭ could do the same mission much faster, much safer, and with much higher chances, for the delivered weapons, to overcome eventual air defences present in the area.


    Only over the airspace of some 3rd world state . I hope you are not suggesting that Su 24s which are in any case obsolete can fly over NATO airspace un detected .

    What is the EW system on board the SU 24 ?

    Does it even have an AESA radar ?

    Are Russian AESA radars as evolved as the APG 77 ?

    MEADS provide full 360-degree coverage & also provides continuous on-the-move protection for maneuver forces. IRIS-T SL can eliminate the SU 24 from 30 kms away .

    He was talking about a scenario with the Israeli bombing in Syria, not about bombing Washington DC.

    Some reports say the Israeli's used "Toss Bombing" technique during the Syria bombing

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    Viktor

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Viktor on Sun May 12, 2013 1:47 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Some losses are to be expected in over 2 years of fighting but IMO so far they've been minor losses in the overall scheme of things.

    I hope so.

    Cyberspec wrote:That said, the Syrian AD is largely equipped with older systems reinforced with some more modern equipment since 2007/08. But they do have a large force covering a relatively small area. Israel could establish local air superiority but it would require a major and large scale operation which isn't politically palatable at the moment. They have to calculate whether such an operation would lead to a major regional war.

    Syrian AD is a real mystery to begin with. While it consist of huge numbers of mostly old systems able to repel limited air strikes

    much of internet community was astonished to find out about China made low level 3D radar in Syrian possession. That opens a question

    what else has been done to Syria AD network by the China or Russia or more interesting Belarus who has wast experience with

    modernization of older systems like this. Sadly no one can tell.


    Cyberspec wrote:I was just reading the news and it seems the rebels are under heavy pressure on many fronts. If the situation continues in that direction, they're facing defeat without outside intervention....I wonder whether the latest bomb blasts in Turkey (near the Syrian border) will be used as a pretext for some sort of intervention

    And so it seems that bandits are loosing ground on a daily basis and they are fighting among each other which is possibly the best

    thing they could do Very Happy .

    Erdogan is little US lolly pop - I guess he must blame it on Assad otherwise he could loose his chair.



    Mindstorm

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun May 12, 2013 9:25 am

    Only over the airspace of some 3rd world state . I hope you are not suggesting that Su 24s which are in any case obsolete can fly over NATO airspace un detected.

    Reread what i've written (...or accept the little "aid" by part of Cyberspec) and you will find this up-cited statement totally out of line.



    Does it even have an AESA radar ?

    Mmhh.....very interesting, and say to me what US strategic or tactical bomber have, at today, a ....moreover almost pointless for this kind of aircraft....AESA radar mounted ?


    Are Russian AESA radars as evolved as the APG 77 ?

    Scientific knowledge behind Active ESA radars for fighter aircraft is firmly within the knowledge's pool of our Institutes (the same that have realized the first electronically scanned phased array at world mounted on a fighter aircraft ) since at least a pair of decades Very Happy.
    It is considered not even worth of naming or particularly complex.

    The real problem (as often happen with domestic engineering's process of electronic components) is, instead, constituted by COST and RELIABILITY of manufacture of MMIC.

    USA has a wonderful applicative engineering sector (in the electronic segment it is surely the first at world) that, combined with enormous production's scale, is capable to establish an efficient, RELIABLE , production lines able to maintain low the COSTS of ,otherwise, very expensive components such as GaAs MMIC for mass production.
    The domestic choice to don’t proceed promptly along the Active ESA ‘s pact (above all when the technology was still at its first steps) was dictated fundamentally by AFFORDABILITY problems .

    Clear now?

    Naturally all this point around Active ESA radars is a pure digression with literally zero value in our discussion about Isreali bombing of a target at 16 km of distance from the air space of a neighbouring nation Laughing .


    MEADS provide full 360-degree coverage & also provides continuous on-the-move protection for maneuver forces. IRIS-T SL can eliminate the SU 24 from 30 kms away .

    MEADS ?

    Mmhh.....very interesting, as for the AESA radar on strategic/tactical bombers, i would be very glad to you if you could point to me what airspace on this planet is today defended by MEADS.

    This "attempt", by itself, speak volumes about the abysmal level of western IADs Rolling Eyes


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    NickM

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    Re: Syrian Air Defence Force

    Post  NickM on Sun May 12, 2013 1:38 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Scientific knowledge behind Active ESA radars for fighter aircraft is firmly within the knowledge's pool of our Institutes (the same that have realized the first electronically scanned phased array at world mounted on a fighter aircraft ) since at least a pair of decades Very Happy.
    It is considered not even worth of naming or particularly complex.

    The real problem (as often happen with domestic engineering's process of electronic components) is, instead, constituted by COST and RELIABILITY of manufacture of MMIC.

    Is the domestic Russian market big enough to justify BIG investments in the semiconductor sector ? NO .

    Does Russia have it's own customised alternative to Microsoft WINDOWS ? NO .

    Once the USSR ceased to exist, Russia's human resource limitations began to show up in a big way & that's why today it is importing UAVs from Israel & LPDs from France. Acquiring industrial manufacturing capabilities is the very easy part; possessing the scientific manpower & skilled/experienced human resources required for business innovations is an entirely different challenge

    Therefore in these areas Russia today is decades behind even Israel, leave alone the West.

    Exactly how many Nobel Prizes in physical sciences or applied mathematics has either the USSR or Russia won to date?

    Hope you have realized that in such scientific matters Russia's performance is only better than Asian countries like China , India and Africa .

    Mindstorm wrote:Clear now?

    First , you need to get your facts right . Accept that there are malignant problems in Russia . Only then can you rectify them .

    Mindstorm wrote:MEADS ?

    Mmhh.....very interesting, as for the AESA radar on strategic/tactical bombers, i would be very glad to you if you could point to me what airspace on this planet is today defended by MEADS.

    MEADS will replace Patriot missiles in the United States, the older Hawk system in Germany, and Italy’s Nike Hercules missiles . The system will incorporate its own 3-radar set, along with networked communications for use as either a stand-alone system, or a component of larger air defense clusters that include other missiles.Two 360-degree, Multifunction Fire Control Radars (MFCR). The X-band MFCR employs active phased array technology, using transmit/receive modules developed in Germany. It also incorporates advanced identification-friend-or-foe (IFF) sensors with improved capabilities.

    It's a generation ahead of anything that Russia can field in the near future . Even the S 500 is no match for it .

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