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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

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    JohninMK
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:41 am

    Sounds like one of those childish 'if you hit me I'll hit you' moments in international diplomacy viz Syria/Ukraine. Mind you Obama was not going to say anything else really.

    In a controversial move, US President Barack Obama has assured Kiev that Washington will continue to support Ukraine, according to Svyatoslav Tsegolko, press secretary of the Ukrainian President. Ukraine's presidential press secretary Svyatoslav Tsegolko said on his Facebook page that US President Barack Obama had reaffirmed the White House's support for Ukraine and its efforts "to protect [its] territorial integrity and sovereignty".

    According to Tsegolko, the statement was made during Obama's meeting with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on the sidelines of the 70th session of the UN General Assembly that is currently under way in New York. "During the talks, President Obama stressed that the United States will continue to support Ukraine, which is implementing reforms and seeks a diplomatic solution to the conflict", Tsegolko said.

    He added that Obama had reiterated his support for Poroshenko's efforts, which he said are aimed at protecting his country's territorial integrity and sovereignty.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150929/1027699145/obama-poroshenko-ukraine-support.html#ixzz3n7R6Ew9R

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:10 pm

    Kazzura translated what Strelkov said http://kazzuraengsubs.tumblr.com/post/130064972826/strelkov-awaiting-for-the-todays-putins

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Erk on Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:50 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Kazzura translated what Strelkov said http://kazzuraengsubs.tumblr.com/post/130064972826/strelkov-awaiting-for-the-todays-putins

    He is very negative, almost like an opposition politician.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:18 pm

    Erk wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Kazzura translated what Strelkov said http://kazzuraengsubs.tumblr.com/post/130064972826/strelkov-awaiting-for-the-todays-putins

    He is very negative, almost like an opposition politician.

    Strelkov has always been quite pessimistic. His political views are also very much not in line with the Kremlin's.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Rodinazombie on Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:50 pm

    Personally i dont take much notice as to what strelkov says and havent done for a long while. If the ukies could take back the regions with a large offensive in 2-3 days then they would have done it before now.  

    Putin is playing the same game as before, nothing has changed, apart from now he is clearly winning. Who else is bathing in the irony of putin the dictator, isolated by the world whose country is on the brink of financial apocolypse due to western sanctions, sitting clinking glasses with obama yesterday?

    Western media are trying to spin it any way they can, but its clear by their mudslinging at putin that he is winning. I dont like russia getting too involved in syria, but what i do like is how he is playing the good guy there and doing things the right way. He is showing the world the ugly side of the west and its foreign policies. At the same time, he really is showing up the people who believe they have isolated him and are forcing russians tp eat grass, because clearly for all the west has thrown at it, russia is still there, putin is still there wnd neither his nor russias stance has changed. What good did all the rhetoric coming out of the white house do? Its just hot air and now its visible for all to say.

    On another note, its quite amusing for me to see quotes of putin shared across the british interweb, he is becoming wuite popular and respected here. I would love to see a poll on who would support him as leader of the UK. I dare say our country would be a in a better state if he were in charge.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:27 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote: If the ukies could take back the regions with a large offensive in 2-3 days then they would have done it before now.
    All the shelling and small scale attacks up to the end of August were the preliminary to the offensive which would have begun between 25 and 28 August. When Poroshenko returned from his visit to Merkel and Hollande on 24 August it all stopped. They have not attacked because they have been told not to, not because they lack the capability.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Nikander on Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:43 pm

    At first I thought that Strelkov is just dumb, then that he's a selfish adventurist but now It really wouldn't surprise me if he's a flat out traitor. Whatever he is no one should take him seriously about anything. This is a guy with a murky past and a murky present doing who knows what. What we do
    know is that from the time all of this began he was constantly talking how everything is over, how weak the militias are and how mighty the Nazis are and of course how Putin will betray Donbass. Let's remember that people who were with him in Donbass like Boroday and Zakharchenko don't have anything good to say about him. Only a moron can believe his stories about militia being routed in 2-3 days or about Russian troops fighting in Syria. That's not Putin's style at all.

    Militias not being able to take whole Donbass and fighting defensive war is also perfectly natural right now. The goal right now isn't to expand territories, it is to preserve. Of course plans can always change, and that's why the west is scared to give Ukraine the go ahead for the attack. Russia will respond to that attack differently and with more force then with those before.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Nikander on Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:52 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote: If the ukies could take back the regions with a large offensive in 2-3 days then they would have done it before now.
    All the shelling and small scale attacks up to the end of August were the preliminary to the offensive which would have begun between 25 and 28 August. When Poroshenko returned from his visit to Merkel and Hollande on 24 August it all stopped. They have not attacked because they have been told not to, not because they lack the capability.

    So what you're saying is that ukies could have destroyed and still can militias but didn't because the great humanitarians Merkel and Holland who by the way can't fart without Obama's blessing stopped it out of concern for people of Donbass?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:54 pm

    Nikander wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote: If the ukies could take back the regions with a large offensive in 2-3 days then they would have done it before now.
    All the shelling and small scale attacks up to the end of August were the preliminary to the offensive which would have begun between 25 and 28 August. When Poroshenko returned from his visit to Merkel and Hollande on 24 August it all stopped. They have not attacked because they have been told not to, not because they lack the capability.

    So what you're saying is that ukies could have destroyed and still can militias but didn't because the great humanitarians Merkel and Holland who by the way can't fart without Obama's blessing stopped it out of concern for people of Donbass?

    Merkel and Hollande had no faith in Kiev's forces after the Debaltsovo debacle.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:47 pm

    Khepesh wrote:.................................
    What people want is some concrete sign that all will end good, not rumors of Surkov being in Donbass, or that Putin may or may not have winked after saying something. Let these people actualy say something that people want to hear, not what Obama wants to hear.

    There are plenty of signs that it will end good, more and more of them every day. Most important one is that ukrops got their balls twisted into stopping the shelling and forced to fully focus on digging their own and their country's  grave.

    Khepesh wrote:.................................
    All the shelling and small scale attacks up to the end of August were the preliminary to the offensive which would have begun between 25 and 28 August. When Poroshenko returned from his visit to Merkel and Hollande on 24 August it all stopped. They have not attacked because they have been told not to, not because they lack the capability.

    They always had capability to attack, but capability to win anything disappeared permanently in august 2014.


    As for Strelkov, he is firebrand with an agenda. I would be extremely glad to have him with me in the trenches but when it comes to making sensitive political decisions I would give the job to someone else.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:00 pm

    Methinks the lady may have a problem

    DONETSK (Rostov Region), (Sputnik) — During the trial, Savchenko stated that she told Ukrainian artillery not to fire at certain roads considered potentially useful.

    "Yes, I said it. You could consider it as fire adjustment, but it is not an adjustment," Savchenko said, answering a prosecutor’s question regarding whether she told the artillery precisely where they should deliver fire near the roads.

    Savchenko has been in pretrial detention in Russia since summer 2014, as a suspected accomplice in the killing of two Russian journalists during the early stages of the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

    Russian investigators believe that Savchenko was a fire spotter during a mortar attack near the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk on June 17, 2014, that killed two Russian journalists, Igor Kornelyuk and Anton Voloshin.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150929/1027730058.html#ixzz3n8z38D00

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:04 pm

    Moscow slowly starting to withdraw the brotherly good deal, but so slowly that it can't be interpreted as some kind of blackmail.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday that Moscow was planning to stop treating Kiev as a preferential trade partner by the end of 2015 as the trilateral agreement on Ukraine-EU association is highly unlikely to be reached by that time.

    "It [the switch to a non-preferential trade regime] will happen if the situation does not change and there is no agreement in the trilateral format [which includes Russia, Ukraine and the EU] by the end of this year," Medvedev said at an expanded ministerial meeting of the Russia-Belarus Union State. "My view is that the possibility of such an agreement is highly unlikely, but miracles happen, including in political life," Medvedev added.

    The Ukraine-EU Association Agreement establishes a political and economic association between the parties. The association deal was signed after a coup-imposed government came to power in Ukraine in 2014. Russia, as Ukraine's largest trading partner, has repeatedly insisted on being included in negotiations concerning Ukraine's EU association, suspecting the process, if not monitored, could result in an uncontrolled flow of European goods into the Russian market.

    Russia’s concerns over the implementation of the agreement caused the postponement of the free-trade zone's implementation until early 2016.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150929/1027730817.html#ixzz3n8ziPAxc

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:09 pm

    Nikander wrote:

    So what you're saying is that ukies could have destroyed and still can militias but didn't because the great humanitarians Merkel and Holland who by the way can't fart without Obama's blessing stopped it out of concern for people of Donbass?
    Explain what the bombardments and attacks were for and why they stopped after Poroshenko had met with Hollande and Merkel.

    As for who does or does not listen to Strelkov, if you do not like what he says, then do not read. And from where was Strelkov getting his orders? where did his authority come from? Maybe from some "moron" perhaps....

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:11 pm

    Or maybe from himself. Maybe he used his former kgb history as a means to getting where he got. Doesnt mean he is any good.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:38 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:.................................
    What people want is some concrete sign that all will end good, not rumors of Surkov being in Donbass, or that Putin may or may not have winked after saying something. Let these people actualy say something that people want to hear, not what Obama wants to hear.

    There are plenty of signs that it will end good, more and more of them every day. Most important one is that ukrops got their balls twisted into stopping the shelling and forced to fully focus on digging their own and their country's  grave.

    Khepesh wrote:.................................
    All the shelling and small scale attacks up to the end of August were the preliminary to the offensive which would have begun between 25 and 28 August. When Poroshenko returned from his visit to Merkel and Hollande on 24 August it all stopped. They have not attacked because they have been told not to, not because they lack the capability.

    They always had capability to attack, but capability to win anything disappeared permanently in august 2014.


    As for Strelkov, he is firebrand with an agenda. I would be extremely glad to have him with me in the trenches but when it comes to making sensitive political decisions I would give the job to someone else.
    Shelling can be restarted anytime and is not a good indication that the future is settled. In a year, five years or ten years from now, what country will DNR/LNR be part of, their own country, Russia, Ukraine. We are told that the territorial integrity of Ukraine will be maintained, so presumably it means that Donbass remains part of Ukraine, fantastic, just what everybody wants.....

    Illovaisk was a year ago and is irrelevant to the current situation. At Debltsevo it was planned to take the city within a week at the most, and then if the situation was favorable to advance to Artemovsk from Gorlovka and Popasnya. But Popasnya could not be taken and it took a month to take Debaltsevo and many ukrops positions along the south of the pocket caused major problems, Nikishin for instance. Ukrops are not the same as they were and it is not wise to underestimate them. They do not need to take all Donbass in one operation, they just need to take a chunk, then wait to see what happens, then another chunk. That first chunk will be the south, and if they cannot take Telmanovo and Novoazovsk, they could cut them off from Donetsk without needing to advance to the border and risk another Zelenepole, and this will cause political problems in Donetsk.

    About Strelkov. As I wrote above, where did his orders come from? I have no argument with Zakharchenko, yet we know were his orders came from at the beginning, and not from Moscow.... Strelkov now clearly serves a purpose similar to Zhirinovsky, and something else, as the affair about Shirokino showed, yet some who cheered him last year now call him "traitor" and those who listen to him "morons" wtf!

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  auslander on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:46 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Nikander wrote:

    So what you're saying is that ukies could have destroyed and still can militias but didn't because the great humanitarians Merkel and Holland who by the way can't fart without Obama's blessing stopped it out of concern for people of Donbass?
    Explain what the bombardments and attacks were for and why they stopped after Poroshenko had met with Hollande and Merkel.

    As for who does or does not listen to Strelkov, if you do not like what he says, then do not read. And from where was Strelkov getting his orders? where did his authority come from? Maybe from some "moron" perhaps....

    For whatever reason when Mr. Poroshenko was summarily summoned to Berlin some weeks ago the constant bombardments stopped and the well known plan for an all out attack on Novorossiya timed for late August did not happen, notwithstanding his 18 months of patiently explaining to anyone who would listen that he had and has no control over the 'volunteer' units. Bovine scatology, when Mutti told him to knock it off he stopped it in a heartbeat. My question is what did VVP say to Mutti that gave her the change of heart? She and everyone else knew exactly what Mr. Poroshenko was doing and said not a word about the murderous bombardments that killed several THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in eighteen months. As for Hollande, he is nothing but that annoying callous on your little toe.

    As for the good Polkovnik, I think, and hear, he was grievously wounded before the late summer cauldron battles. Remember he disappeared of a sudden and nothing was heard of him for eight or so weeks. He looked pretty rough when he did reappear, pale and frail. Serious wounds can and sometimes do have a long lasting psychological affect on some soldiers and to be honest he still does not look nor have the body language of the 'old' Strelkov.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:52 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Or maybe from himself. Maybe he used his former kgb history as a means to getting where he got. Doesnt mean he is any good.
    It is inconceivable he was acting as a free agent in Crimea and then Donbass. He was there to take the blame if it all went wrong, plausible deniability, it was all the fault of a wild maverick, not anybody else....  He was removed as the game had gone beyond his paygrade, and a figurehead who was local was needed. All this was discussed at the time, yet a year on and it seems forgotten and people crap on Strelkov's head. It seems that the Kremlyadi attack Strelkov for carrying out the orders of the Kremlin, yet cannot see the irony...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:20 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Or maybe from himself. Maybe he used his former kgb history as a means to getting where he got. Doesnt mean he is any good.
    It is inconceivable he was acting as a free agent in Crimea and then Donbass. He was there to take the blame if it all went wrong, plausible deniability, it was all the fault of a wild maverick, not anybody else....  He was removed as the game had gone beyond his paygrade, and a figurehead who was local was needed. All this was discussed at the time, yet a year on and it seems forgotten and people crap on Strelkov's head. It seems that the Kremlyadi attack Strelkov for carrying out the orders of the Kremlin, yet cannot see the irony...

    I gave you a plus vote on that, because I think that's true.

    I listened to V. Putin's U N speech, but couldn't listen to all of Pres. Obama's. He is so boring and such a phony.

    It's hard to figure out, (for me) the "game" behind the words...

    I still think, because of the interview on 60 minutes, that there is a FACTION, in the U.S. that wants to be done with Ukraine, but Pres. Obama has this arrogance and insecurity, and imho, he wants to "leave a good legacy", also he doesn't want to "appear weak", for what ever political reasons...
    Or maybe he just took V. Putin out-smarting his Administration re Crimea, personally. Very Happy

    I don't know what the Obama Administration thinks to accomplish with Ukraine, except use it as a means to sanction Russia and wage war that way.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:33 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Or maybe from himself. Maybe he used his former kgb history as a means to getting where he got. Doesnt mean he is any good.
    It is inconceivable he was acting as a free agent in Crimea and then Donbass. He was there to take the blame if it all went wrong, plausible deniability, it was all the fault of a wild maverick, not anybody else....  He was removed as the game had gone beyond his paygrade, and a figurehead who was local was needed. All this was discussed at the time, yet a year on and it seems forgotten and people crap on Strelkov's head. It seems that the Kremlyadi attack Strelkov for carrying out the orders of the Kremlin, yet cannot see the irony...

    But if no one who worked with him had anything good to say about him, could have been an error on Kremlins behalf and that they brought him back for that very reason. I am not attacking the man but he doesnt appear to have been right on other occasions.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:41 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:

    I gave you a plus vote on that, because I think that's true.

    I listened to V. Putin's U N speech, but couldn't listen to all of Pres. Obama's. He is so boring and such a phony.

    It's hard to figure out, (for me) the "game" behind the words...

    I still think, because of the interview on 60 minutes, that there is a FACTION, in the U.S. that wants to be done with Ukraine, but Pres. Obama has this arrogance and insecurity, and imho, he wants to "leave a good legacy", also he doesn't want to "appear weak", for what ever political reasons...
    Or maybe he just took V. Putin out-smarting his Administration re Crimea, personally. Very Happy

    I don't know what the Obama Administration thinks to accomplish with Ukraine, except use it as a means to sanction Russia and wage war that way.
    Good, well, yes I think there is a faction that wants finished with Ukraine, and I sense it may be at least as much Republican as Democrat, just as two of the most visible pro Ukranian faction, McCain and Brzezinski are from both party's. I feel that Obama is acting out of hurt feelings and stuborness as you say because he knows he has failed and does not want to admit it. What is rather cloudy to me is how the next president, who I am sure will be Republican, will act. It is easy to see a possible over reaction to Obama and America irresponsibly lashing out to "right wrongs" bla bla bla, but that seems too easy and I think it will not be like that, perhaps more statesman like, but that depends on who becomes president and it is impossible to guess at this stage. I think that by the end of 2016 Ukraine and Syria will be mostly at a stage were it is impossible for any substantial American interferrance, not over, but beyond reach for America. There will be constant screams and jumping from Obama and his administration until goes, but all hot air without substance now. I think he was mortally wounded by Putin yesterday and will not recover, only some post mortem twitching. Realpolitik should now begin and these situations dealt with properly, and before 2017, just in case a real loony wins the presidency and not a clown.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    But if no one who worked with him had anything good to say about him, could have been an error on Kremlins behalf and that they brought him back for that very reason. I am not attacking the man but he doesnt appear to have been right on other occasions.
    Well, I don't want to open a can of worms here and do the washing in public, but maybe Strelkov could say some unpleasant things about Zacharchenko, not the man as he is basically a good guy, but his previous employment and employer. He has not done this of course, but the opportunity is there. Best left in a dark cuboard until after the war perhaps...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  auslander on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:23 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Or maybe from himself. Maybe he used his former kgb history as a means to getting where he got. Doesnt mean he is any good.
    It is inconceivable he was acting as a free agent in Crimea and then Donbass. He was there to take the blame if it all went wrong, plausible deniability, it was all the fault of a wild maverick, not anybody else....  He was removed as the game had gone beyond his paygrade, and a figurehead who was local was needed. All this was discussed at the time, yet a year on and it seems forgotten and people crap on Strelkov's head. It seems that the Kremlyadi attack Strelkov for carrying out the orders of the Kremlin, yet cannot see the irony...

    He has a good reputation among many circles and he certainly was the right man in the right place and at the right time for Slavyansk/Kramatorsk and in my opinion tied up the orcs for the needed time for Novorossiya to progress from embryo to infant.

    As for his involvement in the events in Krimu, while we certainly did not see nearly all the shakers and movers of the event my lass and I discussed him this evening and neither of us remembers hearing of him or seeing him throughout the local events. That is not by any stretch of the imagination saying he was not here and was not involved, it is simply a statement that we did not see him or hear of him during that time. I can assure you that if we ever do meet him or see him in our AO he will be saluted and honored as he should be for his efforts up north.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:31 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    But if no one who worked with him had anything good to say about him, could have been an error on Kremlins behalf and that they brought him back for that very reason. I am not attacking the man but he doesnt appear to have been right on other occasions.
    Well, I don't want to open a can of worms here and do the washing in public, but maybe Strelkov could say some unpleasant things about Zacharchenko, not the man as he is basically a good guy, but his previous employment and employer. He has not done this of course, but the opportunity is there. Best left in a dark cuboard until after the war perhaps...
    I would have thought that, given the way the society as a whole operated, for decades, that it is highly likely that anyone in Ukraine with the stature and experience to do the job that Zacharchenko is doing will have some kind of 'skeletons' in the closet.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:56 pm

    Sounds like a 'lets get the lynch mob together' after a kangaroo court situation to me.

    UNITED NATIONS (Sputnik) — Representatives of Ukraine and a handful of other countries are currently meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly to discuss the 2014 crash of Malaysian flight MH17, a Ukrainian official told Sputnik on Tuesday. The official confirmed the meeting was taking place and was attended by Kiev administration officials, including the Deputy Head of Administration.

    Last week, Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop told The New York Times that ministers from Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands, Ukraine, and Australia would meet on Tuesday to discuss the creation of an international tribunal on the tragedy, which will not require UN approval.

    A Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said earlier in September that Western efforts to set up an international tribunal on the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash in east Ukraine is premature and counterproductive.

    Flight MH17 went down in the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014, while traveling to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam. All 298 passengers and crew on board, the majority of whom were Dutch citizens, perished in the accident.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150929/1027741972/ukraine-confirms-meeting-on-mh17.html#ixzz3n9gxJ1aR

    sepheronx
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:04 pm

    And what do they hope to achieve from this? And who will be in charge (if it wont be through UN) to arrest those they deem responsible? Who will do the investigation? Will it be transparent (seeing as how they said they refuse to open the documents of their investigations on the crash)?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

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