Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Share

    Flagship Victory
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 974
    Points : 922
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:33 pm

    Zackarchenko says elections on October 18. There are no candidates, no campaigns, and frankly, no funds. Any idea how it's going to work?

    Godric
    Master Sergeant
    Master Sergeant

    Posts : 392
    Points : 406
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Location : Alba (Scotland)

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Godric on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:35 pm

    franco wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:On the video there's a guy at 0:17 who is wearing a white shirt, and looks like he has a black belt. I think that's who administered first aid to the policeman. Who are these guys in white shirts? behind the police, not in front of them.

    Hard to say. They could have been SBU (Security Service) but most likely were Ministry of Interior (police) senior officials.

    As for the beating the shields with the sticks, that is normal Riot Control procedure. Done to intimidate.  The Romans apparently started in back when their Legions would march forward in attack.  

    the Romans copied the tactic from the Greeks ... the bulk of the roman tactics and weaponry was copied from Greece ... whom Rome modelled itself on

    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1757
    Points : 1797
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:43 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:Zackarchenko says elections on October 18. There are no candidates, no campaigns, and frankly, no funds. Any idea how it's going to work?

    Good then they might actually turn out to be democratic. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it to be municipal elections. Republic elections were held last November.

    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1757
    Points : 1797
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:47 pm

    Off twitter but food for thought.

    #EU prefers peace, #US pushes for war. #Poroshenko probably decided to listen to #Merkel, #McCain & Co. sent him the bill today...

    Flagship Victory
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 974
    Points : 922
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:48 pm

    franco wrote:Off twitter but food for thought.

    #EU prefers peace, #US pushes for war. #Poroshenko probably decided to listen to #Merkel, #McCain & Co. sent him the bill today...

    No they are all NATO and hate Russia. Germany, France, the US, all of them. Germany and France play good cop. The US plays bad cop. Let's not forget invasions of Russia done by France under Napoleon and Germany under Hitler.

    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1757
    Points : 1797
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:59 pm

    Apparently the grenade thrower;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqh1m-nbCc&feature=youtu.be

    SturmGuard
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 151
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:00 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Way out of context of what I have ever said or meant... And the view of sit and wait is particular to anglophone forums, not Russian military and Donbass supporting networks where it gets shouted down. I speak for a majority viewpoint on such networks.

    Khepesh, there is a very simple way these people, the majority you speak of, can influence the outcome. Volunteering and fighting for NAF. It is generally accepted that an attacker needs to achieve at least 3-to-1 ratio to successfuly advance and breach defences. NAF simply doesn't have the manpower to effect offensives where they will be going head-on and attacking from known directions (established frontlines). They have proven to be adept at defence and outmaneuvering the enemy. We shouldn't forget how even Debaltsevo salient/encirclement operations were in no way a pushover and had some costly lessons as well.

    I understand that there is a significant part of non-combat duties and support, but it all comes down to the willingness and number of volunteers/soldiers in the end. No ammount of Internet or verbal or financial or material support can replace actual numbers in the field. It is easy to get carried away and cheer for advances, liberation, offensives, while being some distance from actual combat. Men of NAF have been through a lot, especially some of them. Sacrifices have been heavy, and in my opinion, if there is a strategy/solution that conserves the lives of these brave men, it is worth a shot. Especially taking into account that in times of rather low turnout among population, these men were the ones that stood out and decided to make a stand.


    Another thing, NAF advances mean urban assaults and sieges, civilian casualties and destruction. Something NAF has and should avoid at all costs. Would encircling and wiping out paramilitary scum and war criminals be a good thing? Absolutely. Would the annihilation of Azov and the rest of them be worth the cost in NAF and civilian lives? No.


    Last edited by SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Cowboy's daughter
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1141
    Points : 1180
    Join date : 2015-04-24
    Location : Texas

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:01 pm

    franco wrote:Off twitter but food for thought.

    #EU prefers peace, #US pushes for war. #Poroshenko probably decided to listen to #Merkel, #McCain & Co. sent him the bill today...

    That might be true, considering who McCain has had his photo taken with.

    Erk
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 474
    Points : 485
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Erk on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:03 pm



    RT report on the protests.

    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1757
    Points : 1797
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:04 pm

    First report of Right Sector troops leaving the ATO and heading north. Will have to watch for some confirmations.

    Flagship Victory
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 974
    Points : 922
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:07 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Way out of context of what I have ever said or meant... And the view of sit and wait is particular to anglophone forums, not Russian military and Donbass supporting networks where it gets shouted down. I speak for a majority viewpoint on such networks.

    Khepesh, there is a very simple way these people, the majority you speak of, can influence the outcome. Volunteering and fighting for NAF. It is generally accepted that an attacker needs to achieve at least 3-to-1 ratio to successfuly advance and breach defences. NAF simply doesn't have the manpower to effect offensives where they will be going head-on and attacking from known directions (established frontlines). They have proven to be adept at defence and outmaneuvering the enemy. We shouldn't forget how even Debaltsevo salient/encirclement operations were in no way a pushover and had some costly lessons as well.

    I understand that there is a significant part of non-combat duties and support, but it all comes down to the willingness and number of volunteers/soldiers in the end. It is easy to get carried away and cheer for advances, liberation, offensives, while being some distance from actual combat. Men of NAF have been through a lot, especially some of them. Sacrifices have been heavy, and in my opinion, if there is a strategy/solution that conserves the lives of these brave men, it is worth a shot.


    Another thing, NAF advances mean urban assaults and sieges, civilian casualties and destruction. Something NAF has and should avoid at all costs. Would encircling and wiping out paramilitary scum and war criminals be a good thing? Absolutely. Would the annihilation of Azov and the rest of them be worth the cost in NAF and civilian lives? No.



    This is war. In war there are sacrifices. If you are not willing to sacrifice, then might as well not fight at all. 407,316 US soldiers fought and sacrificed in WW2. There is a purpose to war. One must not be afraid of sacrifice. Sacrifice is a part of war. Sacrifice is a part of soldier.

    Cowboy's daughter
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1141
    Points : 1180
    Join date : 2015-04-24
    Location : Texas

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:09 pm

    franco wrote:Apparently the grenade thrower;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqh1m-nbCc&feature=youtu.be

    When you notice the pack he's carrying, and the back packs, etc that people are wearing and carrying, I can't help but think that Kiev government is going to "outlaw" protests, and perhaps persons carrying / wearing such at events.

    but idk who Kiev government thinks they're going to stop it with, unless they use the military instead of police.

    the Kiev government is in a fix.

    SturmGuard
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 151
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:09 pm

    I once again ask the Mods to reconsider their policy of absolute tolerance and freedom of speech on this thread.

    Extreme cases require extreme measures. It may be a case of mental illness or cognitive disabilities, but something tells me it isn't.

    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1757
    Points : 1797
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:15 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Way out of context of what I have ever said or meant... And the view of sit and wait is particular to anglophone forums, not Russian military and Donbass supporting networks where it gets shouted down. I speak for a majority viewpoint on such networks.

    Khepesh, there is a very simple way these people, the majority you speak of, can influence the outcome. Volunteering and fighting for NAF. It is generally accepted that an attacker needs to achieve at least 3-to-1 ratio to successfuly advance and breach defences. NAF simply doesn't have the manpower to effect offensives where they will be going head-on and attacking from known directions (established frontlines). They have proven to be adept at defence and outmaneuvering the enemy. We shouldn't forget how even Debaltsevo salient/encirclement operations were in no way a pushover and had some costly lessons as well.

    I understand that there is a significant part of non-combat duties and support, but it all comes down to the willingness and number of volunteers/soldiers in the end. No ammount of Internet or verbal or financial or material support can replace actual numbers in the field. It is easy to get carried away and cheer for advances, liberation, offensives, while being some distance from actual combat. Men of NAF have been through a lot, especially some of them. Sacrifices have been heavy, and in my opinion, if there is a strategy/solution that conserves the lives of these brave men, it is worth a shot. Especially taking into account that in times of rather low turnout among population, these men were the ones that stood out and decided to make a stand.


    Another thing, NAF advances mean urban assaults and sieges, civilian casualties and destruction. Something NAF has and should avoid at all costs. Would encircling and wiping out paramilitary scum and war criminals be a good thing? Absolutely. Would the annihilation of Azov and the rest of them be worth the cost in NAF and civilian lives? No.

    I like the way you think and agree overall. However due to the constant bombardment for 18 months, there is a strong desire for revenge and to get at the UAF from the NAF members. The NAF strongly believes the majority of the UAF don't want to fight and will bug out at the first opportunity. During the last 10 days, there have been two clashes in Lugansk and Donetsk in which the Ukrainian army fled the field as soon as a fight erupted. In one case a battalion retreated when they came under fire from a NAF company and in the other, a company of UAF fled from a 10 man recon force that they had killed 2 of in the opening exchange.

    Erk
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 474
    Points : 485
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Erk on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:17 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:I once again ask the Mods to reconsider their policy of absolute tolerance and freedom of speech on this thread.

    Extreme cases require extreme measures. It may be a case of mental illness or cognitive disabilities, but something tells me it isn't.
    As I have pointed out before the freedom of speech involves a ban on quoting Wikipedia.


    The ignore list works fine, as long as you remember to login.


    RT have done another piece on the protests in Kiev, http://www.rt.com/news/313880-ukraine-radicals-protest-parliament/

    Seems that they were protesting about the constitutional reforms required by the Minsk II agreement, I am not sure if they were for or against the reforms. I would guess that if it's nationalists then they would be against the reforms, but the government has already suggested that they would not go though with them. Perhaps they are getting pressure from Hollande and Merkel.


    Last edited by Erk on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3355
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:19 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Just like they did in Georgia...

    No US troops were involved in Georgia. And no Russian troops are involved in Donbas. It remains to be seen who will send troops to Donbas first? The US or Russia.

    Why you dont give us a favor? and stop posting in this Forums?  DId you really enjoy being
    a Moron?  or you are just an actor?  Americans will never invade Donetsk or Lugansk , it will
    only made it easier for Russia to slap their face. and take the fight directly to Americans..
    Obama ordering an invasion of Donetk and Lugansk will make SUPER EASY for RUssia to end the conflict in Ukraine.. After Americans defeated and its President kicked from power of the outrage, they will be unable to continue justifying their support to Ukraine and its proxy war against Russia.  

    And is this exactly the problem that Russia have.. that their enemies Hides behind others to attack them.. So Russia cannot fight Americans if they hide behind Ukraine. If they come to the front line and fight.. the problem will end.. Russia will beat the hell of Americans in a land war close to their borders and they will need to agree later for peace under their conditions . means ending the support of the fascist they installed in Ukraine.

    Unless you have been living in a cave ,you will know Americans dont fight strong nations that can fight back. Why IRAN is their friends now.. They fight only third world nations and with an alliance backing them.  This is why they arm terrorist and Nazis ...so they do not have to take the big risk of being defeated in the battle field..with the disastrous political consequences for its President .If americans wanted to fight Russia ,they will have not bothered using Ukraine and will have do it in 2008 in Georgia war , under the so called " war hacks"  Republicans or chicken hawks were in power. But they did nothing to Russia.. and you know why?  Because the really fear RUssia.. they know Russia can kick their ass left and right.
    and also know they are not defending their nation ,but provoking another one.. so will have no Support for that war from anyone .   So stop posting bullshit of Americans invading Donetsk or Invading Russia .or Putin in bed with west or Americans invading Crimea,moron.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:41 pm; edited 3 times in total

    SturmGuard
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 151
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:23 pm

    franco wrote:I like the way you think and agree overall. However due to the constant bombardment for 18 months, there is a strong desire for revenge and to get at the UAF from the NAF members. The NAF strongly believes the majority of the UAF don't want to fight and will bug out at the first opportunity. During the last 10 days, there have been two clashes in Lugansk and Donetsk in which the Ukrainian army fled the field as soon as a fight erupted. In one case a battalion retreated when they came under fire from a NAF company and in the other, a company of UAF fled from a 10 man recon force that they had killed 2 of in the opening exchange.  

    I am always a bit sceptical about those reports on UAF cowardice, retreats in face of NAF and unwillingness to fight. I mean, those same forces stood their ground in complete encirclements, tried breakthroughs under direct and indirect fire, and after all, it is the regular army units that are performing the bombardment of cities.

    UkrOp is not some misguided and unwilling participant. It is just the fact that once you smash them, or they end up in captivity, they suddenly become "only cooks, drivers, mobilised, conscripted, unwilling participants". Riiiiiight. Those same people would be jumping around and chanting had the war gone the other way. It's part of PR by NAF.

    We don't know of countermeasures and counter-battery fire (since there is obviously no source of info or graphical evidence of results) but something tells me that NAF aren't just taking the artillery fire.

    I know of the ignore feature, but this is a deliberate and concerted effort at banalising, derailing and polluting the thread. And in case you all haven't noticed, comparing NAF to Islamic Front, "FSA", Al-Nusra and the rest of scum, while Ukraine to Syria is not exactly "supportive" or even remotely appropriate or correct. That some of us members don't quote him means nothing for the majority of readers.


    Last edited by SturmGuard on Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:03 am; edited 2 times in total

    JohninMK
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3383
    Points : 3426
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:29 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:I once again ask the Mods to reconsider their policy of absolute tolerance and freedom of speech on this thread.

    Extreme cases require extreme measures. It may be a case of mental illness or cognitive disabilities, but something tells me it isn't.
    I'm not sure who you are getting at but don't you think that you need more than the couple of weeks that you appear to have been here under your belt before you start making comments like that?

    Perhaps after some more experience here you will start to appreciate that seeing all the sides of an issue helps to form a balanced view. Unless of course you have a mind closed to discussion. We probably need more alternative views here rather than less.

    Anyway, as Erk says, there is always the ignore function.

    Flagship Victory
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 974
    Points : 922
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:30 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:
    franco wrote:I like the way you think and agree overall. However due to the constant bombardment for 18 months, there is a strong desire for revenge and to get at the UAF from the NAF members. The NAF strongly believes the majority of the UAF don't want to fight and will bug out at the first opportunity. During the last 10 days, there have been two clashes in Lugansk and Donetsk in which the Ukrainian army fled the field as soon as a fight erupted. In one case a battalion retreated when they came under fire from a NAF company and in the other, a company of UAF fled from a 10 man recon force that they had killed 2 of in the opening exchange.  

    I am always a bit sceptical about those reports on UAF cowardice, retreats in face of NAF and unwillingness to fight. I mean, those same forces stood their ground in complete encirclements, tried breakthroughs under direct and indirect fire, and after all, it is the regular army units that are performing the bombardment of cities.

    UkrOp is not some misguided and unwilling participant. It is just the fact that once you smash them, or they end up in captivity, they suddenly become "only cooks, drivers, mobilised, conscripted, unwilling participants". Riiiiiight. Those same people would be jumping around and chanting had the war gone the other way.

    I know of the ignore feature, but this is a deliberate and concerted effort at banalising, derailing and polluting the thread. That some of us members don't quote him means nothing for the majority of readers.

    You are right. The Ukrainian army is no pushover. After all, Ukraine had been the 2nd most powerful Soviet republic. Else Strelkov wouldn't have had to retreat and lose Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. This video says it all.


    Karl Haushofer
    Senior Lieutenant
    Senior Lieutenant

    Posts : 635
    Points : 634
    Join date : 2015-05-03

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:30 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:Anyone seen Karl Haushofer lately? Is he banned?
    Still here.

    Nice to see instability in Kiev. It needs to get bigger though.

    Flagship Victory
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 974
    Points : 922
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:33 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:Still here.

    Nice to see instability in Kiev. It needs to get bigger though.

    Hopefully it'll get bigger. But don't hold your breath. Poroshenko is ruthless else he wouldn't have got to where he is today. What NAF needs to do is be battle ready. If the protests are suppressed, NAF must immediately launch offensive to liberate Donbas.

    SturmGuard
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 151
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:37 pm

    JohninMK wrote:I'm not sure who you are getting at but don't you think that you need more than the couple of weeks that you appear to have been here under your belt before you start making comments like that?

    Perhaps after some more experience here you will start to appreciate that seeing all the sides of an issue helps to form a balanced view. Unless of course you have a mind closed to discussion. We probably need more alternative views here rather than less.

    Anyway, as Erk says, there is always the ignore function.

    Would you be so kind and show me this "different" "opinion" that troll brings? I have absolutely no problem with Dforce (hell, I even agreed about future combat prospects with him), or some hypothetical Ukrainian or Western member who brings facts, clear arguments, news and information. I miss whir (don't know his background or nationality) actually, he always brought news from the "other side".


    I always remember how when everyone was calling out Putin for inaction and crying about de facto abandoning the Donbass (July-early August) when situation was deterioating and Putin+Lavrov made statements about diplomacy, peace, brotherly nations. In reality, their intervention was already in motion, and soon turned the tables on UkrOps. Speak softly and punch strongly.


    Last edited by SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1757
    Points : 1797
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:44 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:
    franco wrote:I like the way you think and agree overall. However due to the constant bombardment for 18 months, there is a strong desire for revenge and to get at the UAF from the NAF members. The NAF strongly believes the majority of the UAF don't want to fight and will bug out at the first opportunity. During the last 10 days, there have been two clashes in Lugansk and Donetsk in which the Ukrainian army fled the field as soon as a fight erupted. In one case a battalion retreated when they came under fire from a NAF company and in the other, a company of UAF fled from a 10 man recon force that they had killed 2 of in the opening exchange.  

    I am always a bit sceptical about those reports on UAF cowardice, retreats in face of NAF and unwillingness to fight. I mean, those same forces stood their ground in complete encirclements, tried breakthroughs under direct and indirect fire, and after all, it is the regular army units that are performing the bombardment of cities.

    UkrOp is not some misguided and unwilling participant. It is just the fact that once you smash them, or they end up in captivity, they suddenly become "only cooks, drivers, mobilised, conscripted, unwilling participants". Riiiiiight. Those same people would be jumping around and chanting had the war gone the other way. It's part of PR by NAF.

    We don't know of countermeasures and counter-battery fire (since there is obviously no source of info or graphical evidence of results) but something tells me that NAF aren't just taking the artillery fire.

    I know of the ignore feature, but this is a deliberate and concerted effort at banalising, derailing and polluting the thread. That some of us members don't quote him means nothing for the majority of readers.

    Good points and still like the way you think. There is very accurate and effective counter battery fire going on after hours once the OSCE goes to bed. But I still stand on how the NAF feels.

    SturmGuard
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 151
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2015-08-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:58 pm

    franco wrote:Good points and still like the way you think. There is very accurate and effective counter battery fire going on after hours once the OSCE goes to bed. But I still stand on how the NAF feels.  

    We shouldn't allow our emotions and sympathies cloud our judgment and perception of reality. NAF launching an offensive with the aim of pushing UkrOps and preventing artillery fire on major Donbass population centers would mean heavy losses, destruction of settlements where UkrOps are dug-in and lots of collateral civilian casualties. There is no other way to dislodge defenders from their positions.

    Flagship Victory
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 974
    Points : 922
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:58 pm

    franco wrote:Good points and still like the way you think. There is very accurate and effective counter battery fire going on after hours once the OSCE goes to bed. But I still stand on how the NAF feels.  

    What is for sure is the people of NAF held Donbas have endured more than anyone else could possibly endure. If it was anyone else, would have counter attacked.

    Sponsored content

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 9:02 pm


      Current date/time is Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:02 pm