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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

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    Neutrality
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Neutrality on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:05 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:Is this now, or last year?

    Trains Ukrainian armored vehicles moving towards an endless stream of Donbass

    An interesting comment under the video.........

    Which one exactly?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:08 am

    Chersonesus wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:Is this now, or last year?

    Trains Ukrainian armored vehicles moving towards an endless stream of Donbass


    FWIW, my non-expert observations

    i) There doesn't appear to be any heavy weaponry, just about 14 support/supply vehicles and about 36 BMPs (I hope that is right). Some of the BMPs do not appear to have turrets so maybe they are other types of vehicle? The hardware certainly isn't the shiny stuff shown off by Turchynov a few days ago.

    ii) There is a very sombre feel to the whole thing. The troops, apart from a couple waving a flag, are silent, as are most of the civilians watching. This does not have the feel of a confident military heading to battle with the support of the civilian population.

    There's one MTLB and three command m1978 from what I saw.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:19 am

    Neutrality wrote:

    Which one exactly?
    About fifty main comments down, not including the replies, no photo avatar, Иван Петров. It fits with other info, tho not the eye opening part which must be stuffing. This is not unexpected.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:27 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:Is this now, or last year?

    Trains Ukrainian armored vehicles moving towards an endless stream of Donbass

    An interesting comment under the video.........

    Aboy Krasniy Luch? Well could be, however the vehicles wrecked correspond in both camo and commo.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:36 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Aboy Krasniy Luch? Well could be, however the vehicles wrecked correspond in both camo and commo.
    It's nothing to do with the video or ukrops........

    Neutrality
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Neutrality on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:45 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:

    Which one exactly?
    About fifty main comments down, not including the replies, no photo avatar, Иван Петров. It fits with other info, tho not the eye opening part which must be stuffing. This is not unexpected.

    I call BS. Especially the helicopter part.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:49 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:Of course Novorossiya wants to push VSU forces out of striking range but they are not strong enough. Lesson learned from Debaltsevo when the NAF had to call up some vacationers to finish the job for them because the NAF was in bad shape. I'm sure you have heard the NAF is conducting intensive training for a few months now though. It takes sometime to churn out a quality fighter. The NAF is looking to shove the VSU back in the long term as they certainly are not ready now.

    I have to ask: What changed your mind?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:07 am

    And at Prokhorovka on the Volnovakha front are reported 20 Helicopters. At Krasny Luch there are clearly no helicopters, but tanks moving thro should not be discounted. remember last winter, and if not, then do not ask as some questions do not require an answer....

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:13 am

    Khepesh wrote:And at Prokhorovka on the Volnovakha front are reported 20 Helicopters. At Krasny Luch there are clearly no helicopters, but tanks moving thro should not be discounted. remember last winter, and if not, then do not ask as some questions do not require an answer....
    Or may not receive an answer ...........

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Neutrality on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:14 am

    Khepesh wrote:And at Prokhorovka on the Volnovakha front are reported 20 Helicopters. At Krasny Luch there are clearly no helicopters, but tanks moving thro should not be discounted. remember last winter, and if not, then do not ask as some questions do not require an answer....

    Which Krasniy Luch exactly? There is a Krasniy Luch near Antracit and Krasniy Luch near Slavyanoserbsk.

    Where exactly is Prokorovka btw?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:28 am

    Lukashenko has ordered the border with Ukraine strengthened. He says it is not that they fear Ukraine or that belarus has anything that Ukraine wants to attack, but to make sure that the border is secure, particulary from uncontrolled passage of arms over the border. Clearly he expects chaos soon. http://www.belta.by/president/view/lukashenko-belarusi-neobhodimo-usilivat-juzhnye-granitsy-159386-2015/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:32 am

    Neutrality wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:And at Prokhorovka on the Volnovakha front are reported 20 Helicopters. At Krasny Luch there are clearly no helicopters, but tanks moving thro should not be discounted. remember last winter, and if not, then do not ask as some questions do not require an answer....

    Which Krasniy Luch exactly? There is a Krasniy Luch near Antracit and Krasniy Luch near Slavyanoserbsk.

    Where exactly is Prokorovka btw?
    Prokhorovka https://maps.yandex.ru/?ll=37.667563%2C47.528061&z=16&l=map

    Krasny Luch by Antratsit. Residents of Snezhnoe, Torez etc see "stuff" often.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:35 am

    Donetsk PR been busy today.

    MOSCOW, August 18. /TASS/. The shelling of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) by Ukrainian troops has become less intensive as the deputy chief monitor of the OSCE Special Monitoring Commission (SMM), Alexander Hug, visits the troubled eastern republic, DPR defense ministry has told the Donetsk News Agency. "Over the past 24 hours, troops have violated the ceasefire 23 times," a ministry source said, adding that the use of multiple-launch rocket systems and artillery has reduced by three times. Ukrainian military commanders were acting more cautiously in connection with the arrival of an OSCE SMM official, he said.
    The source said the cities of Donetsk, Yasinovataya and Dokuchayevsk, the settlements of Spartak, Krasny Partizan, Staromikhailovskaya, Yasnoye, Yelenovka and Zhabichevo have come under artillery and mortar fire over the past 24 hours. A total of 56 artillery shells, nine tank shells, 52 mines were fired, and Ukrainian troops also used grenade launchers and small arms, the officer said.



    MOSCOW, August 18 /TASS/. The Defense Ministry of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) has blamed the Ukrainian army for shelling Mariupol’s residential areas over the past week.
    On Monday, the US State Department accused militiamen of making attacks in the north and east of Mariupol. The United States claims Kiev violates the ceasefire in Donbas for self-defense.
    "The Kiev-controlled media outlets have been accusing the DPR army of provocations linked to the shelling of the city of Mariupol. Our intelligence service has obtained information that Ukrainian army units shelled Mariupol’s residential quarters from the wooded area located on the southern outskirt of Talakovka populated locality on August 10-16," the Donetsk news agency quoted the ministry’s spokesperson, Eduard Basurin, as saying on Tuesday. He added that the militias had established the location of firing positions of heavy artillery guns to the north of the Berdyanskoye populated locality from where Shirokino and Mariupol were being shelled. "I am using the visit by the OSCE SMM as an opportunity to ask its representatives to check the above mentioned facts because the Kiev government is intentionally inciting tensions in order to create a pretext for launching a new offensive in Donbas," Basurin went on to say.


    MOSCOW, August 18. /TASS/. Ukrainian forces fired more than 7,000 missiles, artillery and tank shells and mortar mines at the territory of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR), DPR defense ministry spokesman Eduard Basurin said on Tuesday. "[Ukrainian forces] fired 2,260 shells from multiple rocket launcher systems, 2,442 shells from artillery instalments, 772 shells from tanks and 1,714 shells from mortars over the last week at peaceful towns and settlements in DPR," Donetsk News Agency quoted Basurin as saying.
    DPR defense ministry reported earlier that the number of shellings by Ukrainian forces has decreased due to arrival of OSCE SMM (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s Special Monitoring Mission) Deputy Chief Monitor Alexander Hug. In particular, only 23 violations of ceasefire by Kiev forces were registered. "Use of multiple rocket launcher systems and artillery has also fallen by three times. Commanders of Ukrainian Armed Forces is more cautious now that OSCE SMM Deputy Chief Monitor Alexander Hug arrived in DPR," the defense ministry said.
    The DPR defense ministry said that Kiev forces shelled from artillery and mortars Donetsk (Petrovsky, Kuybyshevsky and Kievsky districts and airport), Yasinovataya and Dokuchaevsk, as well as settlements of Spartak, Krasny Partizan, Staromikhaylovka, Yasnoye, Elenovka and Zhabichevo. "As a result of shellings, 56 artillery shells of 152mm and 122mm caliber were fired [by Ukrainian forces], 9 tank shells, 52 mines of 82mm and 120mm caliber. They also used grenade launchers and small arms," the defense ministry spokesman said.
    Seventeen people were killed in shellings by Ukrainian forces over last week, and 45 more were injured, Basurin noted. "The total number of victims in bloody shellings over the last week is as follows - 17 civilians were killed, 45 people were injured," Donetsk News Agency quoted Basurin as saying. Last week, DPR office of human rights ombudsperson said that almost 1,300 people have been killed in shellings by Ukraine forces in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) since the beginning of 2015.


    And then we have Washington spouting, clearly in a parallel universe.

    US State Department: Russia and separatists will have to pay a high price

    KYIV, August 18 /Ukrinform/. US is concerned about the increasing intensity of firing by Russian-backed rebels in the east of Ukraine. Spokesman of the US State Department John Kirby said this at a briefing, an Ukrinform correspondent reported. "We are very concerned about the constant attacks by Russian-backed rebels in Ukraine, the number of which has increased sharply recently," he said. He expressed confidence that Russia bears responsibility for the escalation of the conflict. "Of course, the separatists and Russia bear responsibility for the attacks, which led to the escalation of the conflict in August of last year," the spokesman of the State Department said.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Neutrality on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:37 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:And at Prokhorovka on the Volnovakha front are reported 20 Helicopters. At Krasny Luch there are clearly no helicopters, but tanks moving thro should not be discounted. remember last winter, and if not, then do not ask as some questions do not require an answer....

    Which Krasniy Luch exactly? There is a Krasniy Luch near Antracit and Krasniy Luch near Slavyanoserbsk.

    Where exactly is Prokorovka btw?
    Prokhorovka https://maps.yandex.ru/?ll=37.667563%2C47.528061&z=16&l=map

    Krasny Luch by Antratsit. Residents of Snezhnoe, Torez etc see "stuff" often.

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:48 am

    Neutrality wrote:

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.
    It would be interesting to know what state their airforce is in now, not very good of course, but I think likely better than this time last year. Perhaps they make the calculation that at least they have an airforce and VSN have nothing, so why not use it. For instance, yes, VSN can throw up a lot of AD, but in a future war between any countries that have airpower, do you not use it simply because the enemy have a defence. If so, then no country will use airpower, or tanks, because there are very good AT systems, or infantry because there are MG and artillery. I think if you have the capability then it should be used, and if they all get shot down, well, it's war.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  auslander on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:11 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Aboy Krasniy Luch? Well could be, however the vehicles wrecked correspond in both camo and commo.
    It's nothing to do with the video or ukrops........

    Comment says 'edited' but in and of itself it's interesting. The comment you refer to, 'tanks a lot', for an instant threw me as that is the standard comment from someone involved in my other hobby after each post and as a Pavlovian response at first I equated it to be just a casual comment. 'Tanks a lot' was not a casual comment.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  auslander on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:16 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.
    It would be interesting to know what state their airforce is in now, not very good of course, but I think likely better than this time last year. Perhaps they make the calculation that at least they have an airforce and VSN have nothing, so why not use it. For instance, yes, VSN can throw up a lot of AD, but in a future war between any countries that have airpower, do you not use it simply because the enemy have a defence. If so, then no country will use airpower, or tanks, because there are very good AT systems, or infantry because there are MG and artillery. I think if you have the capability then it should be used, and if they all get shot down, well, it's war.

    The general consensus of opinion is there has been some airframe transfers from Poland and FRG in the last months. Whether that involves maint. personell and/or pilots is not confirmed but the airframe transfers are confirmed. Whether or not the transfers include fixed wing airframes is unknown but rotary wing airframes are very definately in the transfer.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:54 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.
    It would be interesting to know what state their airforce is in now, not very good of course, but I think likely better than this time last year. Perhaps they make the calculation that at least they have an airforce and VSN have nothing, so why not use it. For instance, yes, VSN can throw up a lot of AD, but in a future war between any countries that have airpower, do you not use it simply because the enemy have a defence. If so, then no country will use airpower, or tanks, because there are very good AT systems, or infantry because there are MG and artillery. I think if you have the capability then it should be used, and if they all get shot down, well, it's war.

    Look at the modernized Su27P's they're barely at 1999 level. Unless most of those were shipped in Israel or elsewhere for a total overhaul, I don't see how they're going to have better aircraft within the constraint of them being former-Soviet/WarPact. And again sources depict a very bleak picture around 2013. About 20 flyable 29's, 18 27's, 15-20 Su-25's. About 15 Su-24's. less than 50 Mil Mi 24's (with about 12 in UN livery).

    All those old and under-maintained, with relatively little value against heavy airspace interdiction assets. This means that "Northern Wind" can pretty much lock and load all of the Donbass without even leaving that certain country.


    Last edited by KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:55 pm

    Rusophibhic European States in full scale propaganda about "Russia Aggression " and
    preparing its population youth for a "Russian Invasion"..  In this case is a parallel reality
    of Russian invasion to Poland..



    The evil behind this.. is that actually NATO is the one preparing to provoke Russia into a war
    with Poland and Baltic States.. into a small scaled but expensive one.. they will not vacillate
    into provoking RUssia into a proxy fight..  how can this be done?   Easily by NATO exporting islamic Jihadist from middle east to Poland.. training them ,giving them weapons and asking them to invade a village or city in Kaliningrad or Russian mainland..  The idea here is not to
    hold territory..but to hit and run and force RUssia into a limited proxy war with Poland.. but also
    Lithuane ,and other baltic states.   Here the real Aim is 100% to damage Russia economy.. so sustaining the war is priority over capturing territory..  and attacking Touristical sites.
    will also increase in Russia. So places like Sochi , Crimea resorts , ST petersburg ,Kaliningrad or Moscow will be main target.. but also CAucausus.. Bombing an Airport in RUssia could be ideal
    for western terrorist agencies like Americans CIA / Britist Mi6 or Israeli Mossad.  I can imagine
    other attacks could happen in far zones of Russia..to force Russian army to split.. like the far east.. attacks in Kamtchatka or Kuril Islands.  The western anglo zionist Powers and its loyal colonies are a so predictable as 1 2 3. and the Snipers of kiev ,is another tool western intelligences could use to attack peaceful protesters ,that they themselves organize against
    Russia Government.  In Venezuela for example.. "Mysterious" Snipers , began to attack former
    miss Universe of Venezuela.. one by one killing them.. to get the population outrage against the President Maduro for poor job of its police... Not knowing that was exactly the outcome the criminals wanted.. and that the SAme American NGOs that finance the protest..hire the snipers too.. to kill the peaceful protesters they organized..  

    So for example..

    the National Endowed for Democracy or (NED) ..here is the website..

    http://www.ned.org

    IF you read their own website.. they claim to operate in more than 90 countries in the world.
    to defend "Democracy" and freedom" . How is that? does the US government really believe
    in "democracy" and "freedom" and a "better future" as they did in Lybia or the organization is a fraud?

    Interestingly they do not operate or very little activity in NATO countries.. they operate fully only in Nations Not aligned with US imperialism.  So there is no NED in Israel for example.. or NED In Turkey or in Poland. or Kuwait.. No NED offices in Repressive states that are loyal to American IMperialism.  

    The American Terrorist NGO organization (NED) ,hides behind a peaceful humanitarian cover ,funded Directly by US congress , can call for a 50,000 protest in Venezuela.. coordinated with the CIA..  and they tell them.. that the protest have to be peaceful.. ( to make sure the agency dont get blamed later for the terror attacks) ,so thousands of peaceful civilians are fooled into a trap.

    That organization is behind the Coup in Ukraine and the COup in Georgia too. the one in Egypt too that put Morsi in power .and helped to organize the violence and civil war in Lybia, organize the initial violence in Syria. And behind the violence in venezuela and Brazil too. and behind the protest in Russia too.. is simply US congress money ,used to provoke violence in nations they perceive as a threat to American IMperialism. they failed a revolution in IRAN.. you can read more about US Congress color revolutions ,and the many tentacles (NED) have ,that is nothing but a CIA Front.. that provide the information for their criminal activities.

    here a French Journalist explain you how NED American terrorist organization operates..

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article160764.html

    Is an American CIA front.. that collect information of potential terrorist recruits for the agency..
    Later another american NGO or the CIA hire criminals to shoot at the peaceful they told to organize and protest. So essentially all this peaceful protesters with good intentions of a better future were mislead and used to stage for other purposes ,to stage a major violent event ,where the government will be blamed and they not told about it..that criminals also will be hired to Shoot at them.. im sure even the most crazy fanatic ,American Fanboy on this forums..,will ever attend a protest if they were told snipers will be firing at them for a "Greater cause" of removing from Power the government in Russia. That they will be used as Involuntary martyrs . So idiots like Navalny ,PussyRiots or Nemetsov (oh wait already killed) who are more useful death than alive ,,risk their lives for being popular ,and opposing  PUTIN.. This is how the lovely Freedom America operates.. IF any opposition activist to RussianGovernment is popular ,but stand not a chance in politics ,they are a likely candidate for being used as martyrs without them being told.
    the criminals could be given Police Uniforms too...to make it more real... that the "Government is killing" them..

    US will send NGOs to any nation that is at risk of becoming friendly to Russia and become important for RUssia Economy. Why Ukraine was the (NED) heaven and where they were more active. They finance the Right Sector and the Rusophobic groups in Ukraine.


    Anyone who fully understand how the US Government operate in Non aligned countries
    with their imperialism ,will avoid like hell any penny ,brochure or any conference as soon they identify as NED or any American NGO or any western NGO.. or to provide any personal information to any smiley polite staff ,inviting them for a conference of "freedom" and democracy.. They all operate in such a way that junior members of the organization not even fully aware  of how they are helping a terrorist organization..and the whole positive environment they run their business and operate is just a cover.


    So Russia needs to be aware US and its Rusophobic Allies are preparing to provoke Russia into
    a small undeclared war ,where Poland and baltic States will deny to have anything to do with the mercenaries they hire ,train and send to attack Russia towns or cities.  Naturally Russia is much more capable to defend ,so they will need to use Forest and terrain to their advantage
    to minimize Russia aerial supremacy.. and if possible take control of zones populated by civilians to use them as human shields.

    The only thing that have stopped the proxy wars happening ,is the opposition of other European
    Nations into Americans provoking Russia into a war with europe.. So countries like Germany and France could ruin the whole thing operation before it start ,or politicians who oppose this low level wars funded ,and organized by Americans against Russia. Which as i said , its Ultimate Goal is to pressure more Russia economy and sabotage its Tourism and scare potential investors
    to Russia..


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:55 pm; edited 6 times in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  auslander on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:03 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.
    It would be interesting to know what state their airforce is in now, not very good of course, but I think likely better than this time last year. Perhaps they make the calculation that at least they have an airforce and VSN have nothing, so why not use it. For instance, yes, VSN can throw up a lot of AD, but in a future war between any countries that have airpower, do you not use it simply because the enemy have a defence. If so, then no country will use airpower, or tanks, because there are very good AT systems, or infantry because there are MG and artillery. I think if you have the capability then it should be used, and if they all get shot down, well, it's war.

    Look at the modernized Su27P's they're barely at 1999 level. Unless most of those were shipped in Israel or elsewhere for a total overhaul, I don't see how they're going to have better aircraft within the constraint of them being former-Soviet/WarPact. And again sources depict a very bleak picture around 2013. About 20 flyable 29's, 18 27's, 15-20 Su-25's. About 15 Su-24's. less than 50 Mil Mi 24's (with about 12 in UN livery).

    All those old and under-maintained, with relatively little value against heavy airspace interdiction assets. This means that "Northern Wind" can pretty much lock and load all of the Donbass without even leaving that certain country.

    Never forget, an antique T34/76 can kill you just as dead as the most modern Armata.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:11 pm

    auslander wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.
    It would be interesting to know what state their airforce is in now, not very good of course, but I think likely better than this time last year. Perhaps they make the calculation that at least they have an airforce and VSN have nothing, so why not use it. For instance, yes, VSN can throw up a lot of AD, but in a future war between any countries that have airpower, do you not use it simply because the enemy have a defence. If so, then no country will use airpower, or tanks, because there are very good AT systems, or infantry because there are MG and artillery. I think if you have the capability then it should be used, and if they all get shot down, well, it's war.

    Look at the modernized Su27P's they're barely at 1999 level. Unless most of those were shipped in Israel or elsewhere for a total overhaul, I don't see how they're going to have better aircraft within the constraint of them being former-Soviet/WarPact. And again sources depict a very bleak picture around 2013. About 20 flyable 29's, 18 27's, 15-20 Su-25's. About 15 Su-24's. less than 50 Mil Mi 24's (with about 12 in UN livery).

    All those old and under-maintained, with relatively little value against heavy airspace interdiction assets. This means that "Northern Wind" can pretty much lock and load all of the Donbass without even leaving that certain country.

    Never forget, an antique T34/76 can kill you just as dead as the most modern Armata.

    Sure, read my previous posts about how causing damage is good for a militia/insurgency, but a national army needs to stay its ground. If the goal of engaging those airframes is to have them go Kamikaze long range AA systems, then I gladly take a couple of losses. Especially if that ensures no more UA AF or CAS.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  auslander on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:30 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    auslander wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:

    The Ukrops are clearly retards then if they decided to include helicopters again.
    It would be interesting to know what state their airforce is in now, not very good of course, but I think likely better than this time last year. Perhaps they make the calculation that at least they have an airforce and VSN have nothing, so why not use it. For instance, yes, VSN can throw up a lot of AD, but in a future war between any countries that have airpower, do you not use it simply because the enemy have a defence. If so, then no country will use airpower, or tanks, because there are very good AT systems, or infantry because there are MG and artillery. I think if you have the capability then it should be used, and if they all get shot down, well, it's war.

    Look at the modernized Su27P's they're barely at 1999 level. Unless most of those were shipped in Israel or elsewhere for a total overhaul, I don't see how they're going to have better aircraft within the constraint of them being former-Soviet/WarPact. And again sources depict a very bleak picture around 2013. About 20 flyable 29's, 18 27's, 15-20 Su-25's. About 15 Su-24's. less than 50 Mil Mi 24's (with about 12 in UN livery).

    All those old and under-maintained, with relatively little value against heavy airspace interdiction assets. This means that "Northern Wind" can pretty much lock and load all of the Donbass without even leaving that certain country.

    Never forget, an antique T34/76 can kill you just as dead as the most modern Armata.

    Sure, read my previous posts about how causing damage is good for a militia/insurgency, but a national army needs to stay its ground. If the goal of engaging those airframes is to have them go Kamikaze long range AA systems, then I gladly take a couple of losses. Especially if that ensures no more UA AF or CAS.

    I agree, but my analogy was no matter what cloud of rivets, bolts and various pieces of the airframe are leaving for warmer climes, if the damned thing can fly and fire it can kill you. Our boys have nothing besides some relatively lethal anti air odds and ends.

    No army should or could stand it's ground regardless, and that's all I'll say about that statement. I don't want to give some bright light orc any ideas.

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:35 pm

    Vann.

    In my list of the most rusophobic nations in Europe I put Poland on 2nd place, after Ukraine. But a war between Poland and Russia - even a limited one - is not possible. The best NATO can hope for is Polish troops in Ukraine - Polish Vietnam basically - and so far we don't have solid evidence of any significant Polish forces in Donbass.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:41 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:

    Look at the modernized Su27P's they're barely at 1999 level. Unless most of those were shipped in Israel or elsewhere for a total overhaul, I don't see how they're going to have better aircraft within the constraint of them being former-Soviet/WarPact. And again sources depict a very bleak picture around 2013. About 20 flyable 29's, 18 27's, 15-20 Su-25's. About 15 Su-24's. less than 50 Mil Mi 24's (with about 12 in UN livery).

    All those old and under-maintained, with relatively little value against heavy airspace interdiction assets. This means that "Northern Wind" can pretty much lock and load all of the Donbass without even leaving that certain country.
    I hardly meant they will have better equipment per se, but they will, I am sure, be better prepared for war. If VSN had an airforce I am sure they would use it, anybody would, so I am sure that ukrops will use theirs in some capacity. If a need arises to hit a VSN tank column fast, will ukrops say that they cannot possibly use their ground attack air assets because they might get shot down, as on that basis nobody leaves barracks for war as they might get shot.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

    Post  par far on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:43 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Lukashenko has ordered the border with Ukraine strengthened. He says it is not that they fear Ukraine or that belarus has anything that Ukraine wants to attack, but to make sure that the border is secure, particulary from uncontrolled passage of arms over the border. Clearly he expects chaos soon. http://www.belta.by/president/view/lukashenko-belarusi-neobhodimo-usilivat-juzhnye-granitsy-159386-2015/



    All the countries bordering Ukraine are strengthening their borders over the past little while.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

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