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    Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

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    kvs
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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:43 pm

    George1 wrote:Project 636 Varshavyanka submarines "Novorossiysk" and "Rostov-on-Don" will serve the Black Sea Fleet in August and December 2015 respectively.

    Nice thumbsup !! I hope Turkey will not block any ship/submarine transfer to BSF through Bosporus straits

    They can't since they let NATO ships into the Black Sea to levels that violate the Montreaux Convention. I guess they could try to
    use force to stop these Russian submarines. But that is basically an act of war. I don't think Turkey is as bad as the Kiev regime.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  George1 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:45 pm

    kvs wrote:
    George1 wrote:Project 636 Varshavyanka submarines "Novorossiysk" and "Rostov-on-Don" will serve the Black Sea Fleet in August and December 2015 respectively.

    Nice thumbsup !! I hope Turkey will not block any ship/submarine transfer to BSF through Bosporus straits

    They can't since they let NATO ships into the Black Sea to levels that violate the Montreaux Convention.   I guess they could try to
    use force to stop these Russian submarines.   But that is basically an act of war.    I don't think Turkey is as bad as the Kiev regime.

    and as Book. has in its signature "The Bear never asks permission"-Putin thumbsup


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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:17 pm

    The Montreaux convention does not allow aircraft carriers and submarines to cross the Bosphorus. Other surface warships are allowed.
    The Russian submarines will go there via inland channels that link the Baltic with the Black sea.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:54 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:The Montreaux convention does not allow aircraft carriers and submarines to cross the Bosphorus. Other surface warships are allowed.
    The Russian submarines will go there via inland channels that link the Baltic with the Black sea.
    Are you sure about sumbarines? I thin that they are allowed but they must sail on surface.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  George1 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:14 pm

    marat wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:The Montreaux convention does not allow aircraft carriers and submarines to cross the Bosphorus. Other surface warships are allowed.
    The Russian submarines will go there via inland channels that link the Baltic with the Black sea.
    Are you sure about sumbarines? I thin that they are allowed but they must sail on surface.

    i think the same and those vessels are under detailed check before they pass the straits


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  artjomh on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:24 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:The Montreaux convention does not allow aircraft carriers and submarines to cross the Bosphorus. Other surface warships are allowed.
    The Russian submarines will go there via inland channels that link the Baltic with the Black sea.

    No, submarines can pass, but only in surfaced mode.

    Aircraft-carrying ships can also pass as long as their primary purpose is something other than carrying aircraft, in which case they are classified as "capital ships" which are more or less unrestricted.

    Montreaux Convention wrote:Article 12.
    Black Sea Powers shall have the right to send through the Straits, for the purpose of rejoining their
    base, submarines constructed or purchased outside the Black Sea, provided that adequate notice of
    the laying down or purchase of such submarines shallI have been given to Turkey.
    Submarines belonging to the said Powers shall also be entitled to pass through the Straits to be
    repaired in dockyards outside the Black Sea on condition that detailed information on the matter is
    given to Turkey.
    In either case, the said submarines must travel by day and on the surface, and must pass though the
    Straits singly.


    Last edited by artjomh on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:27 pm

    marat wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:The Montreaux convention does not allow aircraft carriers and submarines to cross the Bosphorus. Other surface warships are allowed.
    The Russian submarines will go there via inland channels that link the Baltic with the Black sea.
    Are you sure about sumbarines? I thin that they are allowed but they must sail on surface.
    Here we go

    The Black Sea Countries;

    cannot pass warships solely designed to carry airplanes through Turkish Straits.
    can pass submarines if they are joining their base in the Black Sea for the first time after their construction or purchase, or if they are returning from a repair in dockyards outside the Black Sea.
    can pass their warships through Turkish Straits by notifying Turkey through diplomatic channels 8 days before the passage.

    The Non Black Sea Countries;

    cannot pass warships solely designed to carry airplanes through Turkish Straits.
    cannot pass submarines.
    can pass warships, but the aggregate displacement of the foreign warships in the Black Sea may not exceed 45.000 tons.
    cannot hold their ships in the Black Sea longer than 21 days.
    cannot have more than 9 ships in the Black Sea at the same time
    can pass their warships through Turkish Straits by notifying Turkey through diplomatic channels 15 days before the passage.


    http://turkishnavy.net/2014/03/05/a-primer-on-the-montreux-convention/


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  George1 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:28 pm

    artjomh wrote:

    Aircraft-carrying ships can also pass as long as their main purpose is something other than carrying aircraft.


    i think no for Aircraft carriers. Thats the reason also that Ad.Kuznetsov is considered in Russian classification as an aircraft cruiser


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  artjomh on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:31 pm

    George1 wrote:
    artjomh wrote:

    Aircraft-carrying ships can also pass as long as their main purpose is something other than carrying aircraft.


    i think no for Aircraft carriers. Thats the reason also that Ad.Kuznetsov is considered in Russian classification as an aircraft cruiser

    Capital ships (naval vessels over 15K tons) can pass pretty much unrestricted. Any aircraft-carrying vessel whose main purpose is something other than carrying aircraft is classified as a capital ship.

    This clause is there so that ships with a helicopter cannot be banned as "aircraft carriers"

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  artjomh on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:34 pm

    In any case, you can't "sneak" a submarine into the Black Sea.

    The straits are pretty shallow, you can easily see a submerged vessel from the bridges over Bosphorus.

    A submarine can pass Gibraltrar submerged, though, which a lot of submarines do. Gibraltar is pretty deep.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:36 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    artjomh wrote:

    Aircraft-carrying ships can also pass as long as their main purpose is something other than carrying aircraft.


    i think no for Aircraft carriers. Thats the reason also that Ad.Kuznetsov is considered in Russian classification as an aircraft cruiser

    Capital ships (naval vessels over 15K tons) can pass pretty much unrestricted. Any aircraft-carrying vessel whose main purpose is something other than carrying aircraft is classified as a capital ship.

    This clause is there so that ships with a helicopter cannot be banned as "aircraft carriers"

    Re my quote above. Helicopters are probably not classed as 'airplanes' hence a 'Mistral' would be OK.
    cannot pass warships solely designed to carry airplanes through Turkish Straits.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  artjomh on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:40 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Re my quote above. Helicopters are probably not classed as 'airplanes' hence a 'Mistral' would be OK.
    cannot pass warships solely designed to carry airplanes through Turkish Straits.

    The convention actually says "aircraft", not "airplanes", so helicopters, UAV, target drones fall under that definition.

    However, Mistral would be safe, since it's primary purpose is amphibious landing of tanks and marines, with launching of aircraft being secondary purpose.

    Convention only bans outright ships whose SOLE purpose is carrying aircraft and which displace over 15K tons.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:53 am

    artjomh wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Re my quote above. Helicopters are probably not classed as 'airplanes' hence a 'Mistral' would be OK.
    cannot pass warships solely designed to carry airplanes through Turkish Straits.

    The convention actually says "aircraft", not "airplanes", so helicopters, UAV, target drones fall under that definition.

    However, Mistral would be safe, since it's primary purpose is amphibious landing of tanks and marines, with launching of aircraft being secondary purpose.

    Convention only bans outright ships whose SOLE purpose is carrying aircraft and which displace over 15K tons.

    I know that the Kiev Class Pr 1143 were able to pass the Bosphorus as they were classified as 'aircraft-carrying cruisers" and were principally surface strike vessels with helicopters and a secondary VTOL wing, but what was the intention for the Orel Ulyanovsk Pr 1143.7?  She was clearly going to be a "conventional" carrier since AFAIK she only had a very nominal complement of heavy AShMs, so under the terms of the convention, how did the USSR plan to get her to reach the Northern or Pacific fleet bases?

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:46 am

    Thanks for clearing things up.

    But I still think the Kilos will be delivered to the Black sea via inland channels rather than go the long way Baltic-Atlantic-Mediterranean- Bosphorus- Black Sea.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  marat on Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:42 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Thanks for clearing things up.

    But I still think the Kilos will be delivered to the Black sea via inland channels rather than go the long way Baltic-Atlantic-Mediterranean- Bosphorus- Black Sea.

    That "long way" is much simpler  instead of using internal channels , and also specialized ships could be used to transport submarines.

    But we shall see Very Happy

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    Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  kvs on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:45 am

    http://www.mfa.gov.tr/implementation-of-the-montreux-convention.en.mfa

    Only submarines belonging to riparian states can pass through the Turkish Straits, for the purpose of rejoining their base in the Black Sea for the first time after their construction or purchase, or for the purpose of repair in dockyards outside the Black Sea.

    The above should end the discussion.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:35 am

    i have read some time in a greek tv chanell discussion that Turkey has the right to close the straits to all ships in case they are on war


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:02 pm

    Why Turkey Will Not Close Bosphorus to Russian Naval Ships

    According to the 1936 Montreux Convention, Turkey can close the Bosphorus Strait and the Dardanelles to naval ships of other countries only when it is at war.

    Turkey cannot close the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles to Russian ships and vessels which are supporting the Russian military operation in Syria, former commander of the Black Sea Fleet Admiral Viktor Kravchenko said.

    The 1936 Montreux Convention gives Turkey control over the Bosphorus Strait and the Dardanelles as well as restricts navigation of naval ships of non-Black Sea countries in the straits.

    According to the document, in times of war Turkey can close the straits for foreign naval ships.

    "Turkey cannot close the Black Sea straits to Russian ships coming to Syria. It would be a violation of international law and, particularly, the Montreux Convention which was signed by a majority of nations of that time," Kravchenko said.

    He also noted that even World War II Turkey despite Germany’s pressure remained neutral and did not close the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. Now, there are no reasons to expect that the straits would be closed.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151127/1030850160/turkey-bosphorus-naval-ships.html#ixzz3sgl3Imdk


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:10 pm

    George1 wrote:Why Turkey Will Not Close Bosphorus to Russian Naval Ships

    According to the 1936 Montreux Convention, Turkey can close the Bosphorus Strait and the Dardanelles to naval ships of other countries only when it is at war.

    Turkey cannot close the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles to Russian ships and vessels which are supporting the Russian military operation in Syria, former commander of the Black Sea Fleet Admiral Viktor Kravchenko said.

    The 1936 Montreux Convention gives Turkey control over the Bosphorus Strait and the Dardanelles as well as restricts navigation of naval ships of non-Black Sea countries in the straits.

    According to the document, in times of war Turkey can close the straits for foreign naval ships.

    "Turkey cannot close the Black Sea straits to Russian ships coming to Syria. It would be a violation of international law and, particularly, the Montreux Convention which was signed by a majority of nations of that time," Kravchenko said.

    He also noted that even World War II Turkey despite Germany’s pressure remained neutral and did not close the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. Now, there are no reasons to expect that the straits would be closed.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151127/1030850160/turkey-bosphorus-naval-ships.html#ixzz3sgl3Imdk

    Closing the straits without a casus belli, becomes a casus belli. NATO insurance policy doesn't cover that.


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:43 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:

    Closing the straits without a casus belli, becomes a casus belli. NATO insurance policy doesn't cover that.


    Excellent...


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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  headshot69 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:02 am

    Turkey has blocked Bhosporus for Russian supply ships - they need to wait for hours to pass.

    Several dozen Russian ships have accumulated in the passage through the Bosporus. Turkey makes them hours to wait for permission to enter the straits, writes RT.  

    Turkey has no right to close the strait. This is only possible if a country has officially entered the war.

    Turkish MPs have calculated potential losses from the Russian sanctions. The aggravation of the Russian-Turkish relations will be only for one province Antalya more than 6.5 billion.

    LINKhttp://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201512010527-4prv.htm

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  max steel on Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:48 am

    headshot69 wrote:Turkey has blocked Bhosporus for Russian supply ships - they need to wait for hours to pass.

    Several dozen Russian ships have accumulated in the passage through the Bosporus. Turkey makes them hours to wait for permission to enter the straits, writes RT.  

    Turkey has no right to close the strait. This is only possible if a country has officially entered the war.

    Turkish MPs have calculated potential losses from the Russian sanctions. The aggravation of the Russian-Turkish relations will be only for one province Antalya more than 6.5 billion.

    LINKhttp://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201512010527-4prv.htm

    They still can if they have issued Persona Non Grata against Russians.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:22 pm

    max steel wrote:
    headshot69 wrote:Turkey has blocked Bhosporus for Russian supply ships - they need to wait for hours to pass.

    Several dozen Russian ships have accumulated in the passage through the Bosporus. Turkey makes them hours to wait for permission to enter the straits, writes RT.  

    Turkey has no right to close the strait. This is only possible if a country has officially entered the war.

    Turkish MPs have calculated potential losses from the Russian sanctions. The aggravation of the Russian-Turkish relations will be only for one province Antalya more than 6.5 billion.

    LINKhttp://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201512010527-4prv.htm

    They still can if they have issued Persona Non Grata against Russians.

    Turks going full retard means that Russia is getting job done. Pacific, Baltic and North Sea fleets can always fill the gap. Several days here or there means nothing.

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:25 pm

    max steel wrote:
    headshot69 wrote:Turkey has blocked Bhosporus for Russian supply ships - they need to wait for hours to pass.

    Several dozen Russian ships have accumulated in the passage through the Bosporus. Turkey makes them hours to wait for permission to enter the straits, writes RT.  

    Turkey has no right to close the strait. This is only possible if a country has officially entered the war.

    Turkish MPs have calculated potential losses from the Russian sanctions. The aggravation of the Russian-Turkish relations will be only for one province Antalya more than 6.5 billion.

    LINKhttp://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201512010527-4prv.htm

    They still can if they have issued Persona Non Grata against Russians.

    You can't block shipping lanes on peace time. Montreux and all that jazz. Doing so= Casus belli. That's why they delay the boats, not stop them. Probably for "search".

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    Re: Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:32 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    max steel wrote:
    headshot69 wrote:Turkey has blocked Bhosporus for Russian supply ships - they need to wait for hours to pass.

    Several dozen Russian ships have accumulated in the passage through the Bosporus. Turkey makes them hours to wait for permission to enter the straits, writes RT.  

    Turkey has no right to close the strait. This is only possible if a country has officially entered the war.

    Turkish MPs have calculated potential losses from the Russian sanctions. The aggravation of the Russian-Turkish relations will be only for one province Antalya more than 6.5 billion.

    LINKhttp://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201512010527-4prv.htm

    They still can if they have issued Persona Non Grata against Russians.

    You can't block shipping lanes on peace time. Montreux and all that jazz. Doing so= Casus belli. That's why they delay the boats, not stop them. Probably for "search".
    Correct that the route can't be blocked in peacetime but I bet that the maximum time for 'administrative' delays in issuing approval to pass is not set out. Be interesting to know if this is affecting all ships or just Russian Navy or just Russian merchant marine or just all Russian. If I was Turkey it would be all ships just to be on the safe side, you know, the guy who signs the documents is off sick.

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