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    MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

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    nastle77
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:05 am

    Giulio wrote:elint is a kind of intelligence recon, you listen and record the foreign electromagnetic emissions. It is not ecm or eccm. Actually generally I think elint comes before of the ecm: first you listen and register, then someone will study a way to disturb them (ecm).
    The Mig-25 BM I think it has not the radar and missiles for the awacs killing: the Mig-25BM has avionics for detect enemy radar stations and guide on it the Kh-58 missiles. The Kh-58 missiles or kh-31 afaik are air to ground missiles, not air-to-air. I never heard of Mig-25 awacs-killer.
    For awacs killing I think needs a long range radar and a long range missile (like the novator?) and also in this way it seems to me very difficult, but I don't know. Maybe that it is better try to jam the awacs, but I don't know.
    You are right probably not
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?69640-Kh-58-and-Kh-31P
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  BlackArrow on Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:30 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    nemrod wrote:The Mig-25 during Desert Storm,  attacked B-52, F-111, and F-15. As US refused to acknowledge any losses aircraft due to iraqi air force it is hard appraise what's really happened. In Tom Cooper website he said that during Desert Storm, there are Mig-25 that attacked F-15 without success.
    Though the USN doesn't admit officially, it is almost certain that one F/A-18 was shot down by a MiG-25PD:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Speicher#Loss_incident

    I don't think the USN completely deny that Speicher may have been shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25PD, or do they?
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:53 am

    Documentary on MiG-25 Foxbat



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    mig25PD as a tactical fighter

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:53 pm

    I have always wondered if the mig25PD was relevant in the 80s as a tactical fighter
    We all know it wasn't a dogfighter but aircombat is not always top gun either
    As a interceptor it does have a chance against even enemy fighters if they are heavily loaded with ordnance and thus not very maneuverable...this against opponents other than NATO who do not have strategic bombers

    Mig 25 shoot and scoot tactics may score few kills but can be very disruptive as they will cause many more mission kills and free other WP tactical fighters like mig23/29 from interception duties to battlefield air superiority roles
    Any thoughts?
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:20 pm

    AFAIK, the Mig-25 wasn't a "tactical fighter", but an high speed high altitude interceptor for high paying targets (bombers, recon, awacs, cruise missiles). For remaining targets there were Su-15, Mig-23 and Mig-21 (and then Mig-29).

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:10 am

    Giulio wrote:AFAIK, the Mig-25 wasn't a "tactical fighter", but an high speed high altitude interceptor for high paying targets (bombers, recon, awacs, cruise missiles). For remaining targets there were Su-15, Mig-23 and Mig-21 (and then Mig-29).
    That's what I'm saying it can be an interceptor of ordnance laden tactical fighters (acting as bombers) and if they shed their ordnance to avoid missiles then mission kills can be claimed
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:40 pm

    in general ordnance laden tactical fighters are escorted. The escort or their ecm-aircrafts could be the Mig-25's target. But the Mig-25 is for high altitude, high speed interceptions, quick jumps at high speed for fast targets, like F-111s, or F-14s, B-58 ... .. The Mig-25 was for high speed stratospheric bombers or cruise missiles.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:36 pm

    Giulio wrote:in general ordnance laden tactical fighters are escorted. The escort or their ecm-aircrafts could be the Mig-25's target. But the Mig-25 is for high altitude, high speed interceptions, quick jumps at high speed for fast targets, like F-111s, or F-14s, B-58 ... .. The Mig-25 was for high speed stratospheric bombers or cruise missiles.
    Not sure if mig 25 can intercept cruise missiles
    Can the mig 25 target escorts ? They are likely to be more maneuvers than heavily laden strike planes
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:37 am

    Actually that is what the R-60MKs on the MiG-31s were for.

    The MiG-25 was reportedly capable of high speed at low altitudes and was intended to engage cruise missiles as well as bombers.

    Obviously they would prefer to take down bombers before they released their cruise missile payload as it was obviously more efficient, but the whole reason the MiG-31 got a cannon and R-60MK missile capability was for engaging cruise missiles that were launched before the main AAMs (R-40TDs) could hit the aircraft carrying the missiles.


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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:57 pm

    Was MiG-25 expected to make turning maneuvers while cruising at high speed (above Mach 2)?
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:54 pm

    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:in general ordnance laden tactical fighters are escorted. The escort or their ecm-aircrafts could be the Mig-25's target. But the Mig-25 is for high altitude, high speed interceptions, quick jumps at high speed for fast targets, like F-111s, or F-14s, B-58 ... .. The Mig-25 was for high speed stratospheric bombers or cruise missiles.
    Not sure if mig 25 can intercept cruise missiles
    Can the mig 25 target escorts ? They are likely to be more maneuvers than heavily laden strike planes

    Given that I'm not a Mig-25 pilot, AFAIK the Mig-25 could theoretically get any target. High performances interceptors demonstrated they could intercept with good chances of success subsonic and supersonic cruise missiles, from the front and from behind. From behind with some limitations due to the target speed, altitude and intercept angle (if the target is running away, times are critical and gradually the "fire-window" is dramatically reduced also untill few seconds). This is why high speed bombers like B-58 or XB-70 have been abandoned. The B-58 was retired when the Foxbat entered service. In favour of high performances ECM/eccm and stand-off weapons with handle capacity and, today, stealth. The Mig-25 could get targets alone, but with a good air defense system and ground guidance chanches increase. This applies to any fighter, the more reason for high performances aircrafts.
    At low altitude, due to air density, the Mig-25 has speed limitations and more fuel consumption. This for any Mach-2/3 aircraft. The Mig-25 is a stratospheric interceptor designed for very high performance targets (like a B-58 or a XB-70 or U-2 or SR-71). The Foxbat is not designed for dogfighting, for the simple reason that at very high speed, if you want to return back home, you can't do high turn maneuvers (G overage). The drag increase with the square of the speed, this generate heating (at about 280 - 300° Celsius). The heating reduces the fuselage strength. Engines, canopy and fuselage are designed for withstand it, but there are limitations, under computer control, because at Mach-3 everything happens in an instant and it is very easy exceed limits. The aircraft requires cooling design and system. Afaik, in the Mig-25 there is a cooling system with about 290 liters of water + pure ethanol (95% water) and after each supersonic flight this system requires resupply (they tell also you could drink pure ethanol, if the situation is good.....).
    So, at very high speed, tight turning maneuvers not only are useless (at that speed you do 60-80 Km in a minute), but impossible, so high altitude fight is different from lower altitude fight, because the stratosphere is a different environment (no oxygen for engines, no pressure, T=- 60° C). So, the stratospheric fighting is a very high speed, but a 1,5 - 2G fighting. Although, at 3 Mach, the MiG-25 is considered to have greater maneuverability than its targets, but this is few pertinent, because aircrafts like the SR-71 were 1,5G aircrafts and, in some conditions, they have to slow down for maneuvering or dive. The entire process of interception is under computer control via datalink.
    The Mig-25PD-PDS could carry also IR missiles like R-60/aa-8, in number of four, but this primarily wasn't for dogfighting, but for increase shotdown chances of incoming targets, if the R-40 are already gone, gift that the Mig-25 had not a cannon (although those R-60 could work like defense system in some conditions). According with pilots, afaik, the R-60 missiles and their pylons, gave a little drag and a little speed limitation because not in the Mig25 original design (and I don't know why, maybe that the Mig-25 maximum speed could overcome the R-60 speed and could overheating their fuzes ..... but I'm not sure of this).
    So, the Mig-25 not only is wasted in a low altitude dogfight, but the Foxbat is underdog in this because it is not designed for. For this there were Mig-21/23 and 29. Those tactical aircrafts can reach the Mig-25 altitude only in a zoom climb and, then, they have to go down. The Mig-25 was born for high performance bombers like B-58 and XB-70. When those bombers have been abandoned, the Mig-25 remained almost a bit "orphan".
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:54 am

    Was MiG-25 expected to make turning maneuvers while cruising at high speed (above Mach 2)?

    Yes.

    It had very large control surfaces and was reportedly able to manouver quite well at high speed and high altitude. Of course it was g limited to about 4 or 5 gs, but considering the only other aircraft able to fly at similar speed or faster was the SR-71 which would have trouble pulling more than 3 gs it was agile enough.

    It was no dogfighter however and would avoid a turning fight... much like an F-4 Phantom.

    Afaik, in the Mig-25 there is a cooling system with about 290 liters of water + pure ethanol (95% water) and after each supersonic flight this system requires resupply (they tell also you could drink pure ethanol, if the situation is good.....).

    The nickname of the aircraft was "Restaurant" because of the alcohol on board. It was sprayed into the air intakes to cool the front engine turbine blades.

    According with pilots, afaik, the R-60 missiles and their pylons, gave a little drag and a little speed limitation because not in the Mig25 original design (and I don't know why, maybe that the Mig-25 maximum speed could overcome the R-60 speed and could overheating their fuzes ..... but I'm not sure of this).

    When carrying the R-60MK the MiG cannot fly very fast, but it is still the best in terms of speed... so chasing down a threat like a bomber or a cruise missile it is perfectly capable and still one of the best... the only one better now would be the MiG-31 with its cannon and extra missile capacity.

    AFAIK the MiG-25 can fly at 1,500km/h at sea level making it the fastest jet engined powered manned object at that altitude.

    The whole purpose of the large heavy IR guided R-40TD missiles it to allow the aircraft to chase down receding targets... from behind you have the perfect view for an IR seeker, but most IR guided missiles are short range and lack the legs to catch up a target.

    For a head on target the SARH are best in terms of range, while in a tail chase the IR missiles work better.


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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:04 pm

    Yes, AFAIK, ir missile's best position is from behind in any case, but with an high speed target, the target's speed could give problems with a chase path missile, because the missile have to put itself in the target's tail cone before to chase it and the approach speed is the difference between missile and target. So some advanced missiles can pass, instead to chase, to a collision path, by anticipate the target. For do this, the missile requires guidance computer and target info (route, speed, angle ....). Also some IR missile can do this, like SARH missiles, because they receive target info by the aircraft fire-control untill their launch, so they anticipate the target in an head-on or a lateral engaging and, then, they pass to IR guidance, in order to save the time of the head cooling system (limited).
    The IR guidance in the stratosphere is exalted by very low environment's temperature and by the overheating of the target's engines and fuselage. The head cooling improves all this and makes missile less sensitive to IR-deceives (different light frequencies). An ir missile is also ECM-proof. The water (clouds) can hinder the IR view, but, in the stratosphere clouds there aren't (although not entirely true). Afaik, to engage a Mach-3 SR-71 with a chase path is almost impossible.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:07 pm

    Indeed an orphan but the whole point of PDS update was to resolve this midlife crisis
    Granted not a perfect solution by any means but the mig 25 not sure which versions but did score a few f4 and f5 kills ...and Iraqis only had a few of them
    Imagine on the central front with 300 plus pvo mig25 avsilable many of them would be likely to be diverted to intercept strike planes along with their escorts As their cannot be su 27 and mig29 available everywhere.
    IMHO best strategy for mig25 is to use speed and acceleration to avoid the escorts fighters and use slash and dash tactics against the loaded strike planes.In the gulf war if used appropriately mig25 was a hard aircraft to kill required considerable effort to pin down and destroy ,when available in big numbers I'm sure they will be very disruptive to a intricately planned air campaign.
    Any thoughts ?
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:48 pm

    central front of what?

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:10 pm

    nastle77 wrote:but the mig 25 not sure which versions but did score a few f4 and f5 kills ...and Iraqis only had a few of them
    Iraqi and Soviet sources claim a F-14 shot down in the Iran-Iraq war; and in the First Golf War in 1991, a F/A-18 was also shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25-

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:06 pm

    Giulio wrote:central front of what?
    European theater 80s NATO vs WP

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:06 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:but the mig 25 not sure which versions but did score a few f4 and f5 kills ...and Iraqis only had a few of them
    Iraqi and Soviet sources claim a F-14 shot down in the Iran-Iraq war; and in the First Golf War in 1991, a F/A-18 was also shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25-
    Yes and per Tom Cooper a few F4 in Iran Iraq war
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:28 pm

    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:central front of what?
    European theater 80s NATO vs WP

    No chances: the European theater in the 70-80s was such a mess that it would break out immediately the third world war, nuclear .....

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:06 pm

    Giulio wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:central front of what?
    European theater 80s NATO vs WP

    No chances: the European theater in the 70-80s was such a mess that it would break out immediately the third world war, nuclear .....
    Possibly but the point I'm trying to make is that just because the B70 was cancelled the mig25 was not solely limited to trying to shoot down b52 and sr71
    Even tactical strike planes if not very maneuverable are just as vulnerable, it's a useful role as it will free up other true tactical fighters for other missions
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:23 pm

    Did late model B-52s and B1Bs have enough countermeasures to render the R-40 AAM useless?
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:33 pm

    Yes, AFAIK, ir missile's best position is from behind in any case, but with an high speed target, the target's speed could give problems with a chase path missile, because the missile have to put itself in the target's tail cone before to chase it and the approach speed is the difference between missile and target.

    It was the whole reason the Soviets and Russians developed IR guided models of their BVR missiles.

    Otherwise can you explain why there is an IR version of the R-27ET... why have a long range missile with a range of 60km that needs a lock before launch when the seeker wont lock onto a target more than 20km away...

    Very simply it uses all that extra energy and speed to chase targets down...

    Even more so for the R-40TD, though in the case of a target like an SR-71 it is able to lock on at max range with a closing target because of the enormous IR signature...

    So some advanced missiles can pass, instead to chase, to a collision path, by anticipate the target. For do this, the missile requires guidance computer and target info (route, speed, angle ....). Also some IR missile can do this, like SARH missiles, because they receive target info by the aircraft fire-control untill their launch, so they anticipate the target in an head-on or a lateral engaging and, then, they pass to IR guidance, in order to save the time of the head cooling system (limited).

    No, you are wrong... lots of simple IR guided missiles don't tail chase as they have a simple lead algorithm in their guidance systems.

    Very simply think about a missile approaching from the side... from its perspective the target is moving in its field of view... lets say from left to right. If it turns to the right eventually the target will stop moving from left to right because the missile is flying to a point ahead of the target and has adopted an intercept course... assuming the missile continues to move closer and closer to the target and the target remains stationary in its field of view then it should impact the target without knowing range or target location.

    It works the same way the mirror landing system on an aircraft carrier.

    Afaik, to engage a Mach-3 SR-71 with a chase path is almost impossible.

    The IR signature of the SR-71 is enormous and can be detected at extended ranges with an IRST. Head on shots are actually more practical in that case with IR guided missiles.

    In the gulf war if used appropriately mig25 was a hard aircraft to kill required considerable effort to pin down and destroy ,when available in big numbers I'm sure they will be very disruptive to a intricately planned air campaign.
    Any thoughts ?

    In the sort of conflict you are talking about (european) I would think such slashing attacks would be most effective against targets like AWACS and AEW as well as JSTARS types and tanker aircraft. There will likely be enough strike aircraft for them to keep busy with... plenty of Tornados and F-111s to deal with too.

    The MiG-31 is rather better equipped for these and other roles however...

    Even tactical strike planes if not very maneuverable are just as vulnerable, it's a useful role as it will free up other true tactical fighters for other missions

    Location location location... most MiG-25s in the intercept role would be located in places where strategic aircraft are found and tactical strike aircraft are not.

    Of course unarmed recon versions of the MiG might be instrumental in detecting targets worth hitting...

    Did late model B-52s and B1Bs have enough countermeasures to render the R-40 AAM useless?

    I doubt it...


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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:41 pm

    I highly doubt that anyone in Europe, in Soviet era, would have attack the Warsaw Pact, numerically superior, with NATO conventional bombers and tactical strike airplanes.


    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Did late model B-52s and B1Bs have enough countermeasures to render the R-40 AAM useless?

    From many decades ago, ecm/eccm - war had become so developed as to create real "invisibility" problems of the bombers, for the interceptors; already in pre-stealth era. American and Russian bombers have very very advanced ecm/eccm systems. Today stealth aircrafts, compared with this "old system", are less developed in ecm, because they are "invisible". Actually ecm/eccm warfare is always very important and constantly evolving. But today, for a bomber is almost impossible to break an heavily defended area that has not been previously hit, so: cruise missiles and standoff weapons.

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    mig-25 vs F-15/F-4

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:56 pm

    In the sort of conflict you are talking about (european) I would think such slashing attacks would be most effective against targets like AWACS and AEW as well as JSTARS types and tanker aircraft. There will likely be enough strike aircraft for them to keep busy with... plenty of Tornados and F-111s to deal with too.

    The MiG-31 is rather better equipped for these and other roles however.
    .

    what is your opinion is the Mig-25PDS interceptor a threat to planes likes F-4E ?
    I mean against F-15 the Mig25 is clearly outclassed in a fighter duel but if the F-15 is carrying external offensive weapons then is the latter still able to take on the foxbat ?
    I think such a contest will end inconclusively and lead to strike fighters dumping their weapons to engage the Mig , as in 80s both AIM7 and R40 are SARH maybe the MiG has a slight advantage with IR R-40 but then the F-15 is more manuverable once it dumps its weapons

    apologize this question was for GarryB and supposed to be part of Mig-25 thread
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:15 pm

    If the Mig-25 is making good use of is lead in altitude and speed, only an F-15 could be a danger. The F-4 has no chances at all. And also an F-15 he has to run and climb in a hurry, because of the altitude of the Mig-25. At that altitude the F-15's maneuverability does not matter. The F-15 has to climb and then go down and, I think, without drop tanks.

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