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    MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

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    nastle77
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    MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:12 pm

    My knowledge of military airplanes is very limited but I have realized that most 1 vs 1 airplane threads are largely useless when it comes to evaluating aircraft as combat weapons.Most modern wars between airforces of average size rely on several factors and on several types of aircraft and SAMs etc.2 kind of fighter planes jousting like knights just does not happen usually.

    SO here is my question, there is no doubt that Mig-25 was NOT designed as an air superiority fighter however if used in "slash and dash" attacks against enemy strike planes and escort fighters how much can foxbats disrupt their enemies air offensives? even if it does not score kills can it seriously interfere with escorts main mission i.e protection of strike package by wasting their tme trying to chase and destoy foxbats or force the strike planes to dump their offensive load to evade its missiles?
    Given foxbat can carry 4 AAM missles each and has superior performance than most fighters of that time ( including F-15s in some repects ) allowing it to escape the escorts if needed

    Imagine late 70s and 80s technology, its adversaries A-7,F-111, F-4 ,F-5 and F-15A/B, good GCI control and sufficient numbers of mig-25 foxbats available to meet the escorts on equal terms

    How would you use the foxbat to get the most use out of it ?

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:04 pm

    The Foxbat's targets were above all enemy bombers and recon aircrafts. I'm not a military pilot, but keep in mind that the Foxbat is not a conventional aircraft, because its targets are not conventional aircrafts, but high altitude, high speed targets like the B-58. The Mig-25 was not born for normal interceptions, because it is primarily a stratospheric high altitude interceptor. Afaik it could hit also low targets, but it is wasted on this. The stratosphere is totally different environment and only few aircrafts can fly upthere: U2, SR-71, B-52/B-58, XB-70, Mig-25, Mig-31. For the enemy tactical aircrafts there are tactical interceptors, like the Mig-21, Mig-23/29.
    The Mig-25 can carry tactical missiles like the aa-8, but above all for self defense and the stations for those missiles (afaik) they include restrictions on the maximum speed of the Foxbat. The aa-6 can hit low targets, but above all they are for stratospheric high speed targets.
    A very good system of Mig-25 PD was the IRST that could be used also to tens of kilometers and, in the stratosphere, over distances almost comparable to radar. In this way, the Foxbat could see without turning on the radar and get in the best position for the attack.
    To chase Foxbats I think it was almost impossible: the high supersonic speed is also a powerful defensive weapon and from behind the target interception has some limitations in speed because of the speed of the target.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nemrod on Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:16 am

    As it was mentioned above, the Mig-25 in soviet view, was designed chiefly to intercept the XB-70 Valkyrie. As the american bomber was cancelled, the Mig-25 was intended to SR-71 Blackbird.
    Moreover, the arabs used the Mig-25. The syrian air force downed few F-15, and F-16 with it. The iraqi air force used the Mig-25 against Iran with mixed results. Maybe as the fighter was new in Iraq inventory, the skills of pilots were lights. The Mig-25 during Desert Storm,  attacked B-52, F-111, and F-15. As US refused to acknowledge any losses aircraft due to iraqi air force it is hard appraise what's really happened. In Tom Cooper website he said that during Desert Storm, there are Mig-25 that attacked F-15 without success. The F-15 attacked the Mig-25 with a considerable shot of missiles, they finally successfully downed one Mig-25. There are other fights between F-15 and Mig-25, the F-15 failed to down the Mig-25 even with launching several dozens of air to air missiles. It is hard to evaluate the success of the Mig-25 because even though there would be a US fighter downed, US for evident geopolitical reasons refused to acknowledge any losses. Iraqi air force built up less than 100 modern fighters including Mig-23, Mig-25, Mig-29. Meanwhile US coalition deployed at least 3.000 aircrafts.

    Another incident took place on the border of Saudi, in the end of 90's. A Mig-25 violated the No-Fly zone and penetrated into Saudi airspace. Jordan with their F-16 after launching several air to air missiles failed to intercept the iraqi aircraft. Then US sent against him F-14, F-15, F-18, all these aircrafts launched a considerable number of air to air missiles, but all missed the Mig-25, as the pilot successfully dodged them. It is noteworthy to recall that, these air to air missiles launched against the Mig-25 this time were AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-54 Phoenix, and AIM 120 C AMRAAM. The Mig-25 prove that US concept of air war by only using air to air missile against average manoeuvrable fighter is a real failure. What could we say against the very agile Mig-21, Mig-29, Su-27 ?

    Moreover in soviet air force the Mig-25 served at interceptor, an reckon. Many Mig-25  intercepted several times the SR-71 without switching on its radar, only with their IRST,  they could detect the Black Bird at more than 100 KM. US acknowledged that it lost several of its SR-71, in ....accident, because of .....the magic mechanical failure argument. These losses were certainly due to the air to air missile AAX-6 Acrid, hence by the Mig-25. The Mig-25 was 50's design with a limited goal, nowadays this fighter is no longer able to match with new air war requirements. The successor of the Mig-25 was the very effective Mig-31.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:32 am

    nemrod wrote:The Mig-25 during Desert Storm,  attacked B-52, F-111, and F-15. As US refused to acknowledge any losses aircraft due to iraqi air force it is hard appraise what's really happened. In Tom Cooper website he said that during Desert Storm, there are Mig-25 that attacked F-15 without success.
    Though the USN doesn't admit officially, it is almost certain that one F/A-18 was shot down by a MiG-25PD:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Speicher#Loss_incident

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:54 am

    Afaik the F-15 reaches the stratosphere only in a full climb and then he has to go down. This makes it difficult to intercept stratospheric targets. For example, in Europe, the NATO fighters were training with the SR-71. Aircrafts like the Mirage F-1 had very short time of interception (few seconds: almost impossible) and, to have a chance, they had to takeoff from near Marseilles when the SR-71, near mach-3, he was still over the British Channel. The Mig-25, like the SR-71 and U2, can fly normally in level flight in the stratosphere. The Mig-25 is built for bombers, not for enemy fighters. The ground control is important, above all when the IRST is used. With the IRST, good look down, no sensitivity to ECM, it needs a good guidance and a good training, because you can see also a train's engine. With a good ground control, the target's interception could carry out in automatic. Afaik, the worst enemy for the Foxbat was the F-14, with its radar and aim-54.


    Last edited by Giulio on Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Wolfram on Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:01 am

    nemrod wrote:As it was mentioned above, the Mig-25 in soviet view, was designed chiefly to intercept the XB-70 Valkyrie. As the american bomber was cancelled, the Mig-25 was intended to SR-71 Blackbird.
    Moreover, the arabs used the Mig-25. The syrian air force downed few F-15, and F-16 with it. The iraqi air force used the Mig-25 against Iran with mixed results. Maybe as the fighter was new in Iraq inventory, the skills of pilots were lights. The Mig-25 during Desert Storm,  attacked B-52, F-111, and F-15. As US refused to acknowledge any losses aircraft due to iraqi air force it is hard appraise what's really happened. In Tom Cooper website he said that during Desert Storm, there are Mig-25 that attacked F-15 without success. The F-15 attacked the Mig-25 with a considerable shot of missiles, they finally successfully downed one Mig-25. There are other fights between F-15 and Mig-25, the F-15 failed to down the Mig-25 even with launching several dozens of air to air missiles. It is hard to evaluate the success of the Mig-25 because even though there would be a US fighter downed, US for evident geopolitical reasons refused to acknowledge any losses. Iraqi air force built up less than 100 modern fighters including Mig-23, Mig-25, Mig-29. Meanwhile US coalition deployed at least 3.000 aircrafts.

    Another incident took place on the border of Saudi, in the end of 90's. A Mig-25 violated the No-Fly zone and penetrated into Saudi airspace. Jordan with their F-16 after launching several air to air missiles failed to intercept the iraqi aircraft. Then US sent against him F-14, F-15, F-18, all these aircrafts launched a considerable number of air to air missiles, but all missed the Mig-25, as the pilot successfully dodged them. It is noteworthy to recall that, these air to air missiles launched against the Mig-25 this time were AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-54 Phoenix, and AIM 120 C AMRAAM. The Mig-25 prove that US concept of air war by only using air to air missile against average manoeuvrable fighter is a real failure. What could we say against the very agile Mig-21, Mig-29, Su-27 ?

    Can you tell us more about those unconfirmed F-15 shoot-downs? I'm sure many of us would be interested to get some additional info since we're all familiar with the usual american mantra; i.e. every F-15 in enemy airspace is supposed to be protected by an impregnable force field granting their pilots superhuman strength and wisdom at the same time. respekt

    Edit: Oh yeah, I guess the name of the game *always* should be - admit to nothing, even when confronted with considerable evidence including planes falling straight out of the sky; in which case it's the technical glitch gremlins 90% of the time. Armed forces around the world - take notice, learn from the best. It's guaranteed to keep the masses at home quiet and content.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:13 am

    The Mig-25 comes from the times of the Phantom, not of the F-15. I think for an F-15 needs only a Su-27.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Wolfram on Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:21 am

    Giulio wrote:The Mig-25 comes from the times of the Phantom, not of the F-15. I think for an F-15 needs only a Su-27.

    It's not always rock-paper-scissors in warfare. I'm pretty sure that, of all the 3rd gen aircraft out there, MiG-25 certainly has the best odds at downing an F-15. Now, that doesn't mean it's a normal occurrence, far from it. Eagle is a very, very capable aircraft. However, in certain circumstances, using hit and run tactics, you'd have to agree it's possible.


    Last edited by Wolfram on Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:25 am

    "Hit and run" tactics: the F-104 was a very powerful short range, two mach interceptor, but he had poor radar and, also if with the Sparrow/Aspide, a short engaging range: 15 effective miles. So aircraft like the F-104, or I think the Mig-21, had very poor chances with an F-15: actually none. Afaik only one time an Italian F-104 shot down an F-15 in the USA training and only thanks to a very clever tactic of engagement (and the Americans went wild to understand HOW he had done this), but it was only an isolated case and lucky. Also an F-106 largely overcame the F-104 in supersonic fighting, above all thanks to avionics and supersonic performances in dogfighting. For "normal" tactical interceptors, no chances with an F-15: far apart better radar and performances. Above all it is an ECM and ECCM problem. The attackers are protected by a screen of ecm and have a good awacs guide. For aircrafts like F-111 and A-6/7 need aircrafts like the Mig-23/29 (or their western equivalents). Also the Mig-25 could do it, but above all he was a bomber or high paying targets (like U2) interceptor. For example Algerian Mig-25s I think above all are against French bombers like Mirage IV or Libyan Tu-22s or Su-24s. In any case, I think that there are no chances when you put against an international coalition of countries.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Wolfram on Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:11 pm

    Giulio wrote:"Hit and run" tactics: the F-104 was a very powerful short range, two mach interceptor, but he had poor radar and, also if with the Sparrow/Aspide, a short engaging range: 15 effective miles. So aircraft like the F-104, or I think the Mig-21, had very poor chances with an F-15: actually none. Afaik only one time an Italian F-104 shot down an F-15 in the USA training and only thanks to a very clever tactic of engagement (and the Americans went wild to understand HOW he had done this), but it was only an isolated case and lucky. Also an F-106 largely overcame the F-104 in supersonic fighting, above all thanks to avionics and supersonic performances in dogfighting. For "normal" tactical interceptors, no chances with an F-15: far apart better radar and performances. Above all it is an ECM and ECCM problem. The attackers are protected by a screen of ecm and have a good awacs guide. For aircrafts like F-111 and A-6/7 need aircrafts like the Mig-23/29 (or their western equivalents). Also the Mig-25 could do it, but above all he was a bomber or high paying targets (like U2) interceptor. For example Algerian Mig-25s I think above all are against French bombers like Mirage IV or Libyan Tu-22s or Su-24s. In any case, I think that there are no chances when you put against an international coalition of countries.

    I was talking exclusively about MiG-25 in my previous post.

    Re/ F-104 - see my previous remark; you can't really compare a 3rd generation mach 3 interceptor with an IRST sensor to a 2nd generation mach 2 interceptor. I'm not saying the 25's were made for air superiority, I'm just stating that out of all the 3rd generation aircraft in existence, the MiG-25 would've had the highest chance of both surviving and potentially dealing damage to F-15's. Just like in Iraq where it proved an elusive target thanks to its speed; and coupled with an element of surprise it could potentially shoot some of the enemy down.

    That's all; I wasn't trying to imply anything else.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nemrod on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:16 pm

    Giulio wrote:The Mig-25 comes from the times of the Phantom, not of the F-15. I think for an F-15 needs only a Su-27.

    There are number of useful books about the subject :
    - F-15 Eagle versus MiG-23/25: Iraq 1991
    - Iran-Iraq War in the Air 1980-1988
    - Arab Migs
    - MiG-25 Foxbat and MiG-31 Foxhound
    - MIG-25-Guardian of the soviet Borders
    - Osprey - Aerospace - Russian Warriors - Sukhoi, Mig And Tupolev
    - Soviet-Russian Aircraft Weapons since the world war II

    The great problem with these books, they are most of all westerners pov. I need other books from russian authors. in spite of Tom Cooper is one of the most objective westerners, nevertheless, he is american. I don't want to denigrate its work, because its work deserve to be read, and I prefer him to other authors. But its goal is to sell its work to a westerner public.
    Iam searching books written by Vladimir iylin but I did not find in english. Iam searching in fact russian authors's pov obviously either in english, or in french. What I don't like to read are israeli authors, as they are all pro west oriented. What could I say about Yefim Gordon, well documented, but I was not really enthusiast by its books.
    If you know other books, please suggest us.

    Few words about F-15:
    What it was said about this aircraft is only hype. Most of the time when US sent F-15 in combat, they are always at least 4 F-15, escorted by a number of F-16. They are always in outnumber situation. It is US Air doctrine combat. When you heard that a F-15 downed another aircraft, at first they are several F-15 and F-16, and they launch several missiles to hope downing a supposed enemy.
    It is the same with the F-14. When US Navy sent F-14, they are always escorted by a great number of others fighters, hence they creating an outnumber situation. During the Syrth incident in the 80's, the US sent 6 F-14, and several others escort fighters against only ...2 SU-22. Is the F-15  better than a Mig-23 in dogfight ? It is doubtful, but Mig-23, and Mig-21 already downed successfully several F-15 A, as F-15 downed several Mig-21, and Mig-23. Until now, I've never seen where US technology dominated any air battle.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:33 am

    If the premise is that the MiG-25 could be used against enemy strike aircraft... presumably while other aircraft deal with the air cover the strike aircraft will be operating under then I think it would be fairly valid.

    the main problem with the MiG-25 against a fighter is that its AA-6 missiles are designed to intercept difficult targets like high speed large aircraft and not small manouverable slow aircraft like fighters.

    Of course if you were Egypt right now and wanted an interceptor then a modification of the MiG-25 with four under wing RVV-BD 200km range missiles and a new AESA radar replacing the old radar and updated avionics and perhaps the 15 ton thrust engines from a MiG-31 instead of the 11 ton thrust engines it came with and you would have a real beast.

    Of course for the cost of all that it would be easier and cheaper to just buy some MiG-31...

    The AA-6 in its later models would be ideal for shooting down SR-71s... mainly from head on with the IR guided model, but would likely also be useful against high flying supercruising aircraft too.


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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:06 am

    In an essence, the MiG-25's could still be used to great use. Some upgrades with modern equipment would give it all new capabilities but it all depends on the cost and what the generators can provide in terms of power. But if they produce decent amount of power, I can imagine they could outfit modern MiG-25's with decent Zaslon Radar or Zhuk radar and decent electronics for EW/ECM/ECCM. But all is about cost and maintenance.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Akula971 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:41 am

    See if we are talking A2A against non stratospheric targets with a Mig 25, i doubt it will go well. Mainly because its not the role this aircraft was made for.

    Can it do A2A ?? YES. Can it outrun OPFOR AA missiles ?? YES pretty much.

    Personally i would send a Mig 25 to the stratosphere to recon the battlefield much like an AWACS thanks to its IRST. AWACS that works without a RADAR ?? How nice. And really just coordinate other fighter strike groups from the air. I think it is a good aircraft for taking out high alt UAVs as well.

    But then again, this is all highly ambitious.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:42 am

    The IRST works well, but at high altitude or in the stratosphere. The sun on clouds, the clouds and the humidity are obstacles for the IRST.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:03 am

    Wolfram wrote:
    Giulio wrote:"Hit and run" tactics: the F-104 was a very powerful short range, two mach interceptor, but he had poor radar and, also if with the Sparrow/Aspide, a short engaging range: 15 effective miles. So aircraft like the F-104, or I think the Mig-21, had very poor chances with an F-15: actually none. Afaik only one time an Italian F-104 shot down an F-15 in the USA training and only thanks to a very clever tactic of engagement (and the Americans went wild to understand HOW he had done this), but it was only an isolated case and lucky. Also an F-106 largely overcame the F-104 in supersonic fighting, above all thanks to avionics and supersonic performances in dogfighting. For "normal" tactical interceptors, no chances with an F-15: far apart better radar and performances. Above all it is an ECM and ECCM problem. The attackers are protected by a screen of ecm and have a good awacs guide. For aircrafts like F-111 and A-6/7 need aircrafts like the Mig-23/29 (or their western equivalents). Also the Mig-25 could do it, but above all he was a bomber or high paying targets (like U2) interceptor. For example Algerian Mig-25s I think above all are against French bombers like Mirage IV or Libyan Tu-22s or Su-24s. In any case, I think that there are no chances when you put against an international coalition of countries.

    I was talking exclusively about MiG-25 in my previous post.

    Re/ F-104 - see my previous remark; you can't really compare a 3rd generation mach 3 interceptor with an IRST sensor to a 2nd generation mach 2 interceptor. I'm not saying the 25's were made for air superiority, I'm just stating that out of all the 3rd generation aircraft in existence, the MiG-25 would've had the highest chance of both surviving and potentially dealing damage to F-15's. Just like in Iraq where it proved an elusive target thanks to its speed; and coupled with an element of surprise it could potentially shoot some of the enemy down.

    That's all; I wasn't trying to imply anything else.

    I wasn't clear. In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese Air Force maintained long a ratio of losses 1:1 with the Americans, though using previous generation aircrafts like the Mig-15/17, by choosing tactics "hit and run". The F-15 is exactly born to correct the shortcomings of the Phantoms (like the disadvantage of not having a gun or all aspects missiles), in response to "hit and run" tactics with enemy small, fast and very maneuverable aircrafts.
    So, no chances against F-15 if you start to use "classic" hit and run tactics, because this is exactly the purpose for which it was built.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nemrod on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:36 am

    Giulio wrote:The IRST works well, but at high altitude or in the stratosphere. The sun on clouds, the clouds and the humidity are obstacles for the IRST.

    The new IRST are step by step overcoming all these problems.

    GarryB wrote:
    the main problem with the MiG-25 against a fighter is that its AA-6 missiles are designed to intercept difficult targets like high speed large aircraft and not small manouverable slow aircraft like fighters...

    Iam wondering if the Mig-25 is not a platform for a revolutionary  future fighter. As Russia is leading in the nuclear micro reactor technology-thanks to USSR-, and mulling by 2019 to launch the most powerful laser in the world, the Mig-25 could fit in this project. If Russia build a micro nuclear reactor of 20 tons, hence could be equipped  by powerful laser that could down all fighters, or missiles launched against him. Moreover, a such micro nuclear reactor could provide a huge powerful thrust engine, let's imagine several kilo tons. It could be a breakthrough. Russia -thanks to the legacy of USSR- is a leader in area of lasers, micro nuclear reactor, and jet engines .

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:27 pm

    If the premise is that the MiG-25 could be used against enemy strike aircraft... presumably while other aircraft deal with the air cover the strike aircraft will be operating under then I think it would be fairly valid.
    Yes exactly
    scenario is for example a flight of Turkish F-4 ( configured for strike) escorted by F-16s against VVS Mig-23 and PVO Mig-25
    OR Egyptian F-4s escored by their F-16 intercepted by Libyan Mig-25 and Mig-23
    assuming pilot competency is roughly the same on both sides Smile
    the main problem with the MiG-25 against a fighter is that its AA-6 missiles are designed to intercept difficult targets like high speed large aircraft and not small manouverable slow aircraft like fighters.
    Indeed but if they achieve some surprise due to their speed and using IR versions of the missile plus the fact that the strikers are heavily loaded with weapons maybe those factors may be minimized ?


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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:48 pm

    If you want to know if the Mig-25 can shoot down tactical bombers: yes it can.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:15 pm

    Giulio wrote:If you want to know if the Mig-25 can shoot down tactical bombers: yes it can.
    Thanks for summing it up

    I understand the chances of that diminish depending on the capability of the tactical bomber to evade or Jam the missiles

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:45 pm

    Yes. But if they have not an escort their chances of survival are very low, so they have an escort and an ecm shield. Do not forget that a single ecm aircraft like an EF-111 could jam an area big almost like the Poland (almost 200.000 km2). So very important are irst and ir missiles. The fact is that it is an old point of view. Today there are standoff weapons.
    And don't forget that during Desert Storm (24 years ago ...) an awacs, staying on its territory, could see Iraqi aircrafts since they took off. And we are talking about 24 years ago .............

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:05 pm

    Giulio wrote:Yes. But if they have not an escort their chances of survival are very low, so they have an escort and an ecm shield. Do not forget that a single ecm aircraft like an EF-111 could jam an area big almost like the Poland (almost 200.000 km2). So very important are irst and ir missiles. The fact is that it is an old point of view. Today there are standoff weapons.
    And don't forget that during Desert Storm (24 years ago ...) an awacs, staying on its territory, could see Iraqi aircrafts since they took off. And we are talking about 24 years ago .............

    Good points
    So if I understand correctly you mean chances of survival of tactical bombers or "fighter bombers" are low against mig-25 without ecm and escorts ?
    Didn't the soviets also have version of su-24 a dedicated ECM aircraft ?

    How effective was the Foxbat F thought to be in the AWACs killer role ? I guess it again depends on the escort fighters of the AWACs

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:25 pm

    1) Yes.
    2) Soviets and Russians definitely had their ecm aircrafts, but I do not know the Su-24.
    3) I don't know, but afaik the Foxbat F wasn't an awacs killer, but a "wild weasel".
    To kill an awacs I think is almost impossible, it is far away and heavily defended in the sky and from the ground and it is built exactly in order to see you and destroy. He knows very well that you are coming: its radar has at least 500 Km range and its escort has at least 200 Km range, in this way you have to run very fast for at least 500-600 km in order to arrive at a distance of about 100 km from the awacs: it is almost impossible and, as always, if you go on and on, you only do a favor to the enemy radars and missiles, they become more and more precise and you burn fuel.

    nastle77
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:04 pm

    Giulio wrote:1) Yes.
    2) Soviets and Russians definitely had their ecm aircrafts, but I do not know the Su-24.
    3) I don't know, but afaik the Foxbat F wasn't an awacs killer, but a "wild weasel".
    To kill an awacs I think is almost impossible, it is far away and heavily defended in the sky and from the ground and it is built exactly in order to see you and destroy. He knows very well that you are coming: its radar has at least 500 Km range and its escort has at least 200 Km range, in this way you have to run very fast for at least 500-600 km in order to arrive at a distance of about 100 km from the awacs: it is almost impossible and, as always, if you go on and on, you only do a favor to the enemy radars and missiles, they become more and more precise and you burn fuel.

    I was thinking of these but these are not ECM machines I think
    Su-24MR ('Fencer-E')Dedicated tactical reconnaissance variant. First flight 25 July 1980 as T-6MR-26, 13 April 1983 as Su-24MR. Entered service in 1983. Su-24MR retains much of the Su-24M's navigation suite, including the terrain-following radar, but deletes the Orion-A attack radar, the laser/TV system, and the cannon in favor of two panoramic camera installations, 'Aist-M' ('Stork') TV camera, RDS-BO 'Shtik' ('Bayonet') side-looking airborne radar (SLAR), and 'Zima' ('Winter') infrared reconnaissance system. Other sensors are carried in pod form. Manufactured 1983–1993.[1]Su-24MP ('Fencer-F')Dedicated electronic signals intelligence (ELINT) variant, intended to replace the Yak-28PP 'Brewer-E'. First flight 14 March 1980 as T-6MP-25, 7 April 1983 as Su-24MP. The Su-24MP has additional antennas for intelligence-gathering sensors, omitting the laser/TV fairing, but retaining the cannon and provision for up to four R-60 (AA-Cool missiles for self-defense. Only 10 were built.[1]

    What I meant with the "AWACS killer" was that , this version of mig-25 was equipped with
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-58 which has a range of 85nm or so , if the escorts of the AWACs can be knocked off by other fighters than the Mig-25 can possibly deliver the coup de grace by this missile ?
    This will only happen I think if there are only a few fighters to defend this AWACs , and this will not be a USN or USAF AWACs plane but possibly of a client state like Saudi or Japanese AWACs which can only call on a few fighters at a time

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:00 am

    elint is a kind of intelligence recon, you listen and record the foreign electromagnetic emissions. It is not ecm or eccm. Actually generally I think elint comes before of the ecm: first you listen and register, then someone will study a way to disturb them (ecm).
    The Mig-25 BM I think it has not the radar and missiles for the awacs killing: the Mig-25BM has avionics for detect enemy radar stations and guide on it the Kh-58 missiles. The Kh-58 missiles or kh-31 afaik are air to ground missiles, not air-to-air. I never heard of Mig-25 awacs-killer.
    For awacs killing I think needs a long range radar and a long range missile (like the novator?) and also in this way it seems to me very difficult, but I don't know. Maybe that it is better try to jam the awacs, but I don't know.

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