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    Mistral News thread #2

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    Project Canada
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  Project Canada on Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:38 am


    I doubt that the problem is technical, it will be manufacturing capacity, which is already at full stretch mainly making turbines for aircraft. It is the setting up of new facilities with machine tools, skilled staff etc that will take the time

    But is Russia atleast doing some efforts to set up new facilities and training new skilled staff? it may take time, but at least they are going somewhere instead of doing nothing at all

    sepheronx
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:45 am

    Project Canada wrote:

    I doubt that the problem is technical, it will be manufacturing capacity, which is already at full stretch mainly making turbines for aircraft. It is the setting up of new facilities with machine tools, skilled staff etc that will take the time

    But is Russia atleast doing some efforts to set up new facilities and training new skilled staff? it may take time, but at least they are going somewhere instead of doing nothing at all

    Russia is already building other engines needed for various type of ships.

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/65865/?pid=675274#comments

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:54 pm

    Mistral for India/Brazil/Vietnam ? Question Idea

    http://tass.ru/en/world/813020

    India, Brazil and Vietnam are the potential buyers of Mistral-class amphibious assault ships, which France has refused to deliver to Russia, Head of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Ruslan Pukhov told TASS on Thursday.

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  eehnie on Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:18 pm


    No-one will buy them whitout heavy loses for France. And less countries like India, Vietnam or Brazil.

    mutantsushi
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  mutantsushi on Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:06 am

    France is now touting Saudis and Egypt as customers (translates to Saudi as customer, Egypt as possible end user).
    Who have a history of over-paying, and are "grateful" to France's role in aiding jihadis, etc.

    JohninMK
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:20 am

    mutantsushi wrote:France is now touting Saudis and Egypt as customers (translates to Saudi as customer, Egypt as possible end user).
    Who have a history of over-paying, and are "grateful" to France's role in aiding jihadis, etc.
    Mahmoud Khalaf, an adviser at the Egyptian Nasser Military Academy, said Friday

    "It is very hard to imagine that Egypt would conduct military operations in areas where helicopter carriers would be needed. Arab countries are located on the shores of the Red and the Mediterranean seas, that’s why Egypt and Saudi Arabia do not need such ships,” Khalaf told RIA Novosti.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150808/1025519204.html#ixzz3iAced0n7

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:49 am


    A Fool Pays Twice: France Must Spend Over €1 Bln to De-Customize Mistrals

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20150807/1025498803.html



    France Creates Artificial ‘Hype’ Around Mistrals' Potential Buyers

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150807/1025511629.html



    Hollande Cancelled Mistral Deal Fearing EU Leaders 'Will Attack Him'

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150807/1025512106.html

    GarryB
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:56 pm

    There is no technical reason Russia shouldn't be producing its own great naval turbines.
    It seems it was primarily political, as well as probably beauracratic inertia who saw no need to change things that led the turbines to be continued to be produced in Ukraine.
    That will all change now.

    Yes... the Russians could make a gas turbine engine for ships every bit as good as the Ukrainians could... the only reason they didn't was political... they already bought a few products from Motor Sich, so it made sense to buy their gas turbines too rather than spend extra money to set up production at a Russian company like Klimov.

    These sanctions however have forced Russias hand, so now at extra cost the Russians will build their own gas turbines... more money into the Russian economy and less leaving to the Ukrainian economy.

    I doubt that the problem is technical, it will be manufacturing capacity, which is already at full stretch mainly making turbines for aircraft. It is the setting up of new facilities with machine tools, skilled staff etc that will take the time. Mind you, with a recession looming in the West there may be some opportunities to purchase gear there that can't be made locally in time.

    Nah... the main problem was that there was not need when the new engines arrived on time and not enough political will to change that.  Buying Ukrainian engines meant sensible Ukrainians would not want sanctions against Russia... unfortunately the sensible Ukrainians were overthrown in a coup and idiot zealots got into power that make decisions based on politics rather than economics or common sense. Who would believe that the Ukrainians would be so dumb as to cut themselves off from the only market that took them seriously as a partner... now they will need to join the EU market that will see them as scum... bludging scum.

    Their problem now.

    But is Russia atleast doing some efforts to set up new facilities and training new skilled staff? it may take time, but at least they are going somewhere instead of doing nothing at all

    For the last few years Klimov has been working with the aim of local production of Helicopter engines, and I suspect gas turbine engines would be in the same basket...


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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:56 pm


    It's a buyer's market now:

    ''France Could Be Forced to Sell Mistrals at a Massive Discount
    .............
    Many experts doubt that France will be able to disperse the Mistrals promptly. "Selling someone ships these days is extremely difficult," IHS Jane's senior analyst of defense procurement Ben Moores told AFP.

    The only real option France has is to offer a massive discount for the Mistrals. "They will have to seriously cut their price to make it attractive to another country," Moores added. And even in this case the deal, according to the expert, "could take years."
    ..............''

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20150808/1025524929.html

    ExBeobachter1987
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:01 am

    GarryB wrote:Of course it doesn't make them best buddies... just because Russia sells them stuff doesn't mean Russia should risk anything for them, but if they want to it would be good if they actually could rather than just possibly could.

    Then don't call them allies.
    As trade partners, they won't replace the European countries which limits their economical importance.

    GarryB wrote:You mean Russia should shape its foreign policy to avoid fulfilling the perverted beliefs of those snakes in the grass? Russia should not give them a second thought and should do what suits them when it suits them.

    Needlessly pissing off neighbours and giving your enemies ammo for their narrative is stupid.

    GarryB wrote:Why are they vulnerable?  We are not talking about a civilian transport ship filled with helicopters like the British used in the Falklands.

    Actually, they were.
    The Mistrals were built to current civilian/commercial standards.

    GarryB wrote:These vessels will be military, they will be armed and they will have their own ECM and ESM system to defend themselves....

    They will be under-armed for their size and rely on an escort for defense.

    GarryB wrote:Most bases there are supported by the military of that country, why should the Russian bases be different?

    Russia does not claim Antarctic territory and has shown little intention to claim any in the future.

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:47 pm


    Then don't call them allies.
    As trade partners, they won't replace the European countries which limits their economical importance.

    A country can be an economic ally without being a political or military ally.


    Needlessly pissing off neighbours and giving your enemies ammo for their narrative is stupid.

    Who said anything about needlessly?

    I am talking about Russia forming its future policies without regard for its Baltic neighbours, not forming policy to upset them on purpose... they simply aren't that important.


    Actually, they were.
    The Mistrals were built to current civilian/commercial standards.

    There are no ships that are invulnerable.

    They will be under-armed for their size and rely on an escort for defense.

    You mean like AWACS aircraft and JSTARS aircraft are totally unarmed and rely on escorts... yet NATO still buys them... funny that.



    Russia does not claim Antarctic territory and has shown little intention to claim any in the future.

    Russia has a presence in several places on the Antarctic continent that need to be supplied/supported.


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:58 am; edited 2 times in total


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    par far
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  par far on Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:58 am

    Does anyone know the full details? Is Russia getting blue brings? Is there any technology involved?

    What is Russia's game plan now, there ships similar to the mistral in the works?

    What were the mistrals gonna be used for?

    Book.
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  Book. on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:17 am

    par far wrote:Does anyone know the full details? Is Russia getting blue brings? Is there any technology involved?

    What is Russia's game plan now, there ships similar to the mistral in the works?

    What were the mistrals gonna be used for?

    Yes..two LHD class!  russia
    - Priboy
    - Lavina

    par far u ready?  Twisted Evil



    Priboy 14,000 ton


    Lavina 24,000+ ton


    LHD talk here u miss out! More talk here...
    Russia LHD Priboy
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p885-russian-navy-status-news-2#103194

    Russia LHD Lavina
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103247

    Future LHD atomic power!
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103282

    par far
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  par far on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:11 pm

    Book. wrote:
    par far wrote:Does anyone know the full details? Is Russia getting blue brings? Is there any technology involved?

    What is Russia's game plan now, there ships similar to the mistral in the works?

    What were the mistrals gonna be used for?

    Yes..two LHD class!  russia
    - Priboy
    - Lavina

    par far u ready?  Twisted Evil



    Priboy 14,000 ton


    Lavina 24,000+ ton


    LHD talk here u miss out! More talk here...
    Russia LHD Priboy
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p885-russian-navy-status-news-2#103194

    Russia LHD Lavina
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103247

    Future LHD atomic power!
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103282


    Thanks Book.

    Maximmmm
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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  Maximmmm on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:59 am

    ^Tbh I don't think there's going to be any serious order on Russian equivalents of the ships anytime soon.
    The cash infusion is a lot more beneficial than actually getting the ships, and even if all the money were to go to the navy (which I'm positive it won't), it would be better spent getting frigate, minesweeper and destroyer production up to speed.

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  Berkut on Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:08 pm

    That thing is literally a dusted off soviet project, isnt it?

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  Maximmmm on Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:20 pm

    Berkut wrote:That thing is literally a dusted off soviet project, isnt it?

    Everything is a dusted off soviet project Wink

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:04 am

    Berkut wrote:That thing is literally a dusted off soviet project, isnt it?

    Why re-invent the wheel.

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:49 pm

    Now they have seen the Mistral inside and out and looked at its capabilities I am sure a lot of those old Soviet designs can be brought out and modified to do what a modern helicopter carrier can do, with the advantage of Ka-52K helos and the other systems they want... hopefully however they will be better armed and protected than the Mistrals were.


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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  mutantsushi on Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:16 am

    Wasn't the point of the Mistral it's hybrid military/civil construction and amenability to block assembly?
    I guess "modifying" a legacy design to incorporate that might be less than a fully new design, but... meh.
    Question is if the hybrid/block approach and "knowledge gained" from Mistral is applied to future REAL carriers.

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:48 am

    mutantsushi wrote:Wasn't the point of the Mistral it's hybrid military/civil construction and amenability to block assembly?
    I guess "modifying" a legacy design to incorporate that might be less than a fully new design, but... meh.
    Question is if the hybrid/block approach and "knowledge gained" from Mistral is applied to future REAL carriers.

    It was and the ToT was completed.

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  franco on Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:05 pm

    France paying thru the nose for the Mistral deal... price does not include reputation and credibility losses;
    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150813/1025720810/france-mistral-hollande-price-tag.html

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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:41 am

    France to pay Russia less than €1 bln for severing Mistral contact — French minister

    The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion

    PARIS, August 14. /TASS/. France will pay Russia less than €1 billion for non- delivery of Mistral helicopter carriers, the country’s Finance Minister Michel Sapin has told the France Inter radio station.

    "The sum of payments to Russia for Mistrals will amount to less than €1 billion," he said. The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion.

    The minister said the decision on the Mistral contact will be formally made at the meeting of the defense ministers’ council in late August. Further information will be announced in public.

    Sapin said France’s move to cancel the contract with Moscow is "a necessary political decision" amid the conflict in Ukraine. "We consider that Russia’s position in this conflict is not positive enough," he said.

    "In these conditions, the delivery of military equipment is impossible and this was a carefully thought and balanced decision," the minister stressed.

    The €1.12 billion contract for the construction of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy was signed in June 2011.

    Under the contract, Russia was expected to receive the first of the two warships, the Vladivostok, in the autumn of 2014. However, Paris suspended the ship’s handover to Russia at the very last moment over Moscow’s stance on developments in neighboring Ukraine.

    It was planned that the second ship, the Sevastopol, would be handed over to Russia in the second half of 2015. But the deal was suspended like in the case with the first Mistral ship.The Sevastopol has undergone three series of trials in the open sea.


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    Re: Mistral News thread #2

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:52 am

    George1 wrote:France to pay Russia less than €1 bln for severing Mistral contact — French minister

    The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion

    PARIS, August 14. /TASS/. France will pay Russia less than €1 billion for non- delivery of Mistral helicopter carriers, the country’s Finance Minister Michel Sapin has told the France Inter radio station.

    "The sum of payments to Russia for Mistrals will amount to less than €1 billion," he said. The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion.

    The minister said the decision on the Mistral contact will be formally made at the meeting of the defense ministers’ council in late August. Further information will be announced in public.

    Sapin said France’s move to cancel the contract with Moscow is "a necessary political decision" amid the conflict in Ukraine. "We consider that Russia’s position in this conflict is not positive enough," he said.

    "In these conditions, the delivery of military equipment is impossible and this was a carefully thought and balanced decision," the minister stressed.

    The €1.12 billion contract for the construction of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy was signed in June 2011.

    Under the contract, Russia was expected to receive the first of the two warships, the Vladivostok, in the autumn of 2014. However, Paris suspended the ship’s handover to Russia at the very last moment over Moscow’s stance on developments in neighboring Ukraine.

    It was planned that the second ship, the Sevastopol, would be handed over to Russia in the second half of 2015. But the deal was suspended like in the case with the first Mistral ship.The Sevastopol has undergone three series of trials in the open sea.

    My link above is what the French media is reporting for the costs.

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    Mistral Ships Update: Failed Deals With Russia, Egypt And India Militaries Will Cost France $60 Billion In Defense Contracts

    Post  Pinto on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:03 pm

    Military contract bungles by President François Hollande’s government have cost France nearly $60 billion, according to a damning report Tuesday from Boulevard Voltaire, a left-leaning newspaper based in Paris. In addition to the $2.2 billion that the failed Mistral deal with Russia is set to cost, another two fumbled contracts with India and Egypt for hundreds of Dassault Rafale fighter jets will see Paris lose an additional $57 billion.

    France’s original $1.2 billion deal to build two Mistral warships for Russia was shelved in June after Paris refused to hand over the vessels because of Russia’s support for separatist rebels in Ukraine. It’s now set to cost France around $2.2 billion in compensation for breach of contract. But that failed deal is just the tip of the iceberg.

    India had initially wanted to purchase 126 new Rafale fighter jets from France, but the order was reduced to less than 40 after Defense Minister Manohar Parrika complained that the outlay for the jets, parts and decades of training and refurbishment was too expensive. It now seems that the entire deal could fail as officials from France and India squabble over the final unit price for the remaining jets, according to a Reuters report.



    India will instead spend $25 billion on 127 Russian T-50 fifth-generation stealth fighter jets, a far cheaper and more advanced aircraft. Russia will begin delivering the aircraft within the next 36 months.

    “The biggest piece of the Indian contract has disappeared for good, since India does not want the 126 planes,” notes the Boulevard Voltaire report.

    Meanwhile, France’s $5.2 billion deal with Egypt for 24 Rafale fighter jets is still going ahead, but issues with cash flow and credit in Cairo have meant that French banks are backing the deal, adding to already heavy public debts. The French economy is currently experiencing slow economic growth and is carrying debts of 98.43 percent of GDP, or $2.2 trillion.

    “Though the quality of Egypt’s credit is certainly not Greek, it is clearly not excellent either,” mentions the Boulevard Voltaire report.

    http://idrw.org/mistral-ships-update-failed-deals-with-russia-egypt-and-india-militaries-will-cost-france-60-billion-in-defense-contracts/

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