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    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:59 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..half a billion dollars for one C-17,..

    Unit cost US$218M (flyaway cost for FY 2007)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III


    You forgot to add Fiscal Year 2007 was almost 13 years ago (remember inflation), and the cost is after humongous govt. subsidies, tax breaks, special economic zones for plants. Without those advantages your talking about +$800 million per aircraft.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:28 pm

    In June 2017, the U.S. Department of State approved the potential sale of one C-17 to India under a proposed $366 million U.S. Foreign Military Sale that includes spare parts and support.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III#Indian_Air_Force

    It's a moot point: unless their production is restarted-highly unlikely- only used 1s can be sold now, if at all, & at a reduced price.
    The Japanese Kawasaki C-2 may be an alternative to some:
    Unit cost approx. US$136M- 2 will cost $272M, up to $94M less than, & carry 36Tx2=72T, almost as much as a single C-17:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-2#Sales_efforts

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-2#Specifications_(C-2)

    In 2017, 1 A400M with 37T payload cost RM600M=$143.69M, or $7.69M more:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A400M_Atlas#cite_note-124


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:30 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, text)
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:29 am

    This is an interesting, somewhat unconventional project with an elliptical fuselage (not sure if it's been mentioned previously)

    M-60 by Myasischev...it was talked about as one of the candidates for the PAK-TA
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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:17 am

    It is true that it was a production fsctory for Mc Donnell Douglas and boeing only inherited with their acquisition of their former rival. They could have produced something else st that plant... this is almost so stupid as the russian destruction of Saratov Aircraft plant.

    The US factories were political in nature and never made a profit, for making commercial aircraft they were useless... they only made sense as unstoppable producers of US military crap... not matter how bad... it is a setup recreated for the F-35, which is why that programme steams on ahead despite repeatedly failing to achieve adequate performance goals.

    Th C-17 was so successful politically because all its factories were in economically depressed areas with current sitting senators that had influence on military related matters... generally boards that allocate funding to production of transport aircraft.

    Got to the point where the Pentagon stopped asking for new aircraft but would get funding for them anyway by these senators who wanted to keep these high paying jobs in their voting constituents areas.

    Australia ended up paying $400 million dollars per aircraft, and were also told they could not take off from rough strips or short strips or it would invalidate the high operational airframe hours guarantee.

    And Australia is a loyal poodle when it comes to US allies... turn the lights off and put on an American accent and they do all sorts of tricks... hahaha.

    M-60 by Myasischev...it was talked about as one of the candidates for the PAK-TA

    They would need to be exceptionally powerful engines, and their location would make maintenance and just general engine access a pain in the ass.

    Simple clean design though.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:08 pm

    https://iz.ru/export/google/amp/908099?__twitter_impression=true


    Rob Lee
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    ·
    1h
    Another Syria lesson. The Russian Air Force has begun placing missile defense systems on all Il-76 military transport aircraft. When Russia first intervened in Syria, it used helos with missile defense systems, to cover the take-off and landings for Il-76.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    M-60 by Myasischev...it was talked about as one of the candidates for the PAK-TA

    They would need to be exceptionally powerful engines, and their location would make maintenance and just general engine access a pain in the ass.

    Simple clean design though.

    It would be a pain for the maintenance crew, but ultimately be more safe for them as that the engines are located above the fuselage and it makes it harder for them to be accidentally sucked in and shredded up by the jet engine. As far as the PAK-TA goes, the best idea would be for Tupolev and Illuyshin to cooperate with each other and combine resources and manpower for a related development of PAK-DA/TA on a blended wing-body design.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:00 am

    It would be a pain for the maintenance crew, but ultimately be more safe for them as that the engines are located above the fuselage and it makes it harder for them to be accidentally sucked in and shredded up by the jet engine.

    Well I see what you mean, by safety you mean people on the ground near the aircraft with engines running... you don't normally do maintenance on aircraft while their engines are running, that is just not safe practise.

    Those images of flying wings are interesting, but my favourite is one shown on the TSAGI wind tunnels with a tail section that had the engines mounted on it with horizontal tail surfaces angled up at 45 degrees I think from memory...

    The main hurdle is western stereotypes about Russian aircraft and whether a radical new design would be accepted.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:52 am

    GarryB wrote:
    It would be a pain for the maintenance crew, but ultimately be more safe for them as that the engines are located above the fuselage and it makes it harder for them to be accidentally sucked in and shredded up by the jet engine.

    Well I see what you mean, by safety you mean people on the ground near the aircraft with engines running... you don't normally do maintenance on aircraft while their engines are running, that is just not safe practise.

    Those images of flying wings are interesting, but my favourite is one shown on the TSAGI wind tunnels with a tail section that had the engines mounted on it with horizontal tail surfaces angled up at 45 degrees I think from memory...

    The main hurdle is western stereotypes about Russian aircraft and whether a radical new design would be accepted.

    Never underestimate stupid people not paying attention, there's been cases where people for whatever reason managed to get sucked in to the fan blades of a jet engine. One famous case where a guy on a US aircraft carrier got sucked in to the fan blades of a Harrier jet engine, and by stupid luck survived:





    There was another case in a Texas airport where a guy got sucked in to a commercial passenger plane engine and he wasn't so lucky. I'm not going to post the photos, but lets just say he was a human being one second and was 'magically' transformed into a strawberry banana pineapple smoothie!
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:34 pm

    For most airports the airstairs prevents accidents with people getting sucked in to jet engines most of the time but with ground crew it comes down to training and communication... don't take short cuts past running engines...

    The location of engines on most civil aircraft is not an accident... easy access on the flight line without the need for machines or vehicles to reach the engines makes routine engine maintenance and engine checks easier and faster and therefore cheaper.

    Look at the history of the An-72... the location of the engines on top of the wings improves low flight speed and short takeoff and landing performance... the engine exhaust attaches itself to the top of the wing so when the ailerons are deflected down the jet wash is also deflected down like a TVC engine... this is excellent for short field operations.

    The location of the engines themselves however make maintenance a pain in the arse... so with the end of the cold war they stopped making them and infact modified the design with a more common underwing engine location... ie the An-140 et al are just An-72s with conventional wing locations for their engines.

    Performance was less impressive, but simpler and cheaper to operate and maintain.

    In other words it is a problem if the only aircraft at the airport that requires a special vehicle for the engine crew to reach the engine is yours. When you fly to another airport and they don't have a suitable vehicle?

    Not good.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:54 pm

    Can China help Russia to create the IL-106 transport?
    ..if the Ukrainian Motor Sich redeems China, then in the future there is a chance to acquire the D-18T , but not from Ukraine, but from the Chinese owner . Then the new STVTS of Russia - “IL-106” will appear and fly . Let UEC then make at least PD-18, at least “RF Product”. In the meantime, only optimistic promises from the leadership of the domestic aviation industry about new domestic engines are heard .
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:28 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Can China help Russia to create the IL-106 transport?
    ..if the Ukrainian Motor Sich redeems China, then in the future there is a chance to acquire the D-18T , but not from Ukraine, but from the Chinese owner . Then the new STVTS of Russia - “IL-106” will appear and fly . Let UEC then make at least PD-18, at least “RF Product”. In the meantime, only optimistic promises from the leadership of the domestic aviation industry about new domestic engines are heard .
    I do not think it would make sense to invest in foreign platforms based on outdated engines.

    Especially since those engines are not anymore in production even in Ukraine. Yes they can manufacture spare parts to keep existing engines operative, but restart production of newly built D-18T would require at best a couple of years and a not small investment.

    Would it be worth for Russia to spend money on it for a foreign engine to act as an inefficient stopgap that has also a different architecture from the future pd24 and pd35 (3 spools the D18T, like the Rolls-Royce RB211 and the Trent Family engines, and 2 spools the PD35 and PD24, as the General Electric GEnx and the PD14)?

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:55 am

    By the time they'll really need IL-106s, I hope there'll be new Russian made engines for them.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:31 am

    There will be Russian engines before there are Chinese ones of Ukrainian origin.

    Even if there were Chinese Ukrainian engines ready... why would Russia want to put AN-124 engines on their new Il-106 transport for?

    Even as a stopgap measure it would make little sense.

    In the meantime, only optimistic promises from the leadership of the domestic aviation industry about new domestic engines are heard .

    Yeah, what sort of dumb logic is this?

    The Russian domestic aviation industry is the one that they need to rely on because that is the industry developing not only the Il-106 aircraft but also its new engines too.

    In comparison this person is suggesting that they should hope that the Ukrainians sell AN-124 engine technology to China and China put it in to production fast enough so they can sell it to Russia so they can use it while they are waiting for much better Russian engines to be fully ready.

    Why don't we just wait for the right engines and stop thinking about silly and unrealistic alternatives based on old cold war less reliable less fuel efficient old engines... that the Chinese... despite all their cleverness would be unable to improve in the available time scale let alone be sure of getting production right.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:56 am

    Note post regarding Il-96 moved to civil aviation thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7724p575-russian-civil-aviation-news-3
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    Post  franco on Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:34 am

    GarryB wrote:Note post regarding Il-96 moved to civil aviation thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7724p575-russian-civil-aviation-news-3

    Read an article not long ago that the 4 Il-96-400M being built are all for the Russian Military / Security forces with 3 going to Defense and the other to the FSB. The original placement may prove to be correct dunno
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:43 am

    After moving it I found the content repeated there anyway... Rolling Eyes

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