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    Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

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    T-47

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  T-47 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:45 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:IL-96TZ (tanker) project was cancelled.

    Seriously? From which source?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:02 pm

    RF DOD balked at the high cost of it:
    The Russian defense ministry has dropped earlier plans to buy several Ilyushin Il-96-400TZ air tankers after the industry failed to offer a cost-effective conversion of some aircraft that were previously built as Il-96-400T commercial freighters. Meantime, UAC’s Aviastar plant in Ulyanovsk has completed the first Ilyushin Il-78M-90A air tanker that is expected to commence flight trials shortly, several months behind schedule. .. Following the prototype, two more Ilyushin Il-78M-90A air tankers are on the production line. The Russian MoD has ordered 40 such aircraft. They are based on the Il-76MD-90A airlifter,.. In addition, the pressurized bulkhead in the rear fuselage has been strengthened. Unlike the older Il-78M/MK air tankers, the new version retains the rear loading ramp, so that it can also be used as an airlifter. The aircraft can carry between 167 and 245 soldiers, ... In addition to procurement of brand-new Il-78M-90As, the Russian defense ministry has ordered the modification of in-service Il-78M air tankers to extend their service life and provide a higher fuel transfer rate. The first of these was handed over to Ilyushin for this work earlier in the year. http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-04-17/russia-drops-plans-strategic-air-tanker

    Сделать из Ил-96 двухдвигательную машину можно будет, если в России будет разработан двигатель тягой 32–35 т, подчеркнули в компании. http://www.ato.ru/content/ilyushin-razrabotaet-passazhirskuyu-versiyu-il-96-400t?sea=30003
    - "conversion IL-96 to twin engine model will be possible if an engine with trust of 32-35T is designed in Russia".
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:54 pm

    So they plan to double the size of the tanker fleet? Currently VKS has around 20 Il-78s...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:00 pm

    don't know, some older tankers may need to be replaced.
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:06 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:don't know, some older tankers may need to be replaced.

    They have been short of Tankers since the breakup of the SU. Most of the Il-78's went to Ukraine, who changed them back into Il-76's.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:45 pm

    And sold 4 to Pakistan & 3 to PRC. http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.fr/p/transport-tanker.html#Il-78
    For VKS, 40 IL-78M-90A that can be used as freighters +28 Il-76MD-90A= 68 new cargo planes, or by their max payload =~12 AN-22s. The IL-106 can take its time being developed.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:28 pm

    Yes, those 20 Il-78s need to be replaces, but they are ordering 40 Il-78M-90A, not 20... It would makes sense too, because 20 sounds kind of low, even if tankers are not a priority for Russia like they are for the US Empire.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:15 pm

    They'll keep older IL-78s for as long as possible, from the post #177:
    ..the Russian defense ministry has ordered the modification of in-service Il-78M air tankers to extend their service life and provide a higher fuel transfer rate.
    With higher op. tempo more of them are needed now, not only to refuel VKS, but also navy fighters & ASW bombers.
    http://su-27flanker.com/2015/03/17/how-looks-air-refueling-click-to-see-su-24su-27su-34il-78-midas-hq-video/#
    http://www.deagel.com/library/Russian-Navy-Il-78-tanker-refueling-Tu-142-ASW-aircraft-during-military-parade-at-Kronstadt-naval-base-on-July-31-2017_m02017073100052.aspx
    This is a smart move to have new IL-78M-90As as dual use. That means more flexibility with less wear & tear. Also the crews will be trained for both types of missions. The USAF C-17s are being used extensively since 9/11/01 & I heard a rumour that at least 1 is already at the DMAFB boneyard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III#United_States_Air_Force
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:54 am

    They will increase the number of inflight refuelling aircraft because the number of aircraft they have that can actually use inflight refuelling aircraft has dramatically increased.

    Previously only strategic bombers had inflight refuelling probes... now tactical aircraft are also fitted with them too.


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    T-47

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  T-47 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:07 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:RF DOD balked at the high cost of it:
    The Russian defense ministry has dropped earlier plans to buy several Ilyushin Il-96-400TZ air tankers after the industry failed to offer a cost-effective conversion of some aircraft that were previously built as Il-96-400T commercial freighters. Meantime, UAC’s Aviastar plant in Ulyanovsk has completed the first Ilyushin Il-78M-90A air tanker that is expected to commence flight trials shortly, several months behind schedule. .. Following the prototype, two more Ilyushin Il-78M-90A air tankers are on the production line. The Russian MoD has ordered 40 such aircraft. They are based on the Il-76MD-90A airlifter,.. In addition, the pressurized bulkhead in the rear fuselage has been strengthened. Unlike the older Il-78M/MK air tankers, the new version retains the rear loading ramp, so that it can also be used as an airlifter. The aircraft can carry between 167 and 245 soldiers, ... In addition to procurement of brand-new Il-78M-90As, the Russian defense ministry has ordered the modification of in-service Il-78M air tankers to extend their service life and provide a higher fuel transfer rate. The first of these was handed over to Ilyushin for this work earlier in the year. http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-04-17/russia-drops-plans-strategic-air-tanker

    Сделать из Ил-96 двухдвигательную машину можно будет, если в России будет разработан двигатель тягой 32–35 т, подчеркнули в компании. http://www.ato.ru/content/ilyushin-razrabotaet-passazhirskuyu-versiyu-il-96-400t?sea=30003
    - "conversion IL-96 to twin engine model will be possible if an engine with trust of 32-35T is designed in Russia".


    Good find. But I still hope Ilyushin will find a way to present an affordable cost for MoD. Because the specs of Il-96-400TZs are very impressive and will make the bombers to go very long range missions.
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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Rmf on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:50 pm

    no way. dual use is what sold il-78. transporter-refueler.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:16 am

    Another article on the new cargo concept presented at Maks 2017.


    http://theduran.com/russia-unveils-new-giant-cargo-aircraft/
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:54 pm

    http://theduran.com/russia-unveils-new-giant-cargo-aircraft/
    Allegedly it will be able to ferry 150T of cargo over 7,000 km..
    That's ~2x of max payload & >2x range of a loaded C-17:
    http://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104523/c-17-globemaster-iii/

    I always wondered, why the AN-124 has conventional, not T tail like on the IL-76, C-141/17/5? Isn't the air turbulence affecting horizontal stabilizers directly behind the wings?
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    Dorfmeister

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Dorfmeister on Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:58 pm

    T-47 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:IL-96TZ (tanker) project was cancelled.

    Seriously? From which source?

    Interview of Yuri Slyusar which confirms that the IL-96-400TZ is still alive and kicking.

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3360057
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:21 am

    I always wondered, why the AN-124 has conventional, not T tail like on the IL-76, C-141/17/5? Isn't the air turbulence affecting horizontal stabilizers directly behind the wings?

    It is my understanding that the conventional tail surface of the An-124 is fine for the purpose and was only changed with the An-225 because turbulence generated by large items on the back of the aircraft would reduce horizontal stability... having two vertical stabilisers and moving them sideways out of the air flow of things on the back of the aircraft solve the problems large items on the back of the aircraft created.

    In the case of conventional tail of the An-124... the fact that you call the An-124s tail surfaces conventional suggests they are normal, while the T tails of the other aircraft you compare them with must therefore be unconventional... perhaps a better question would be why the T tail configuration...

    From what I understand the T tail is popular with transport aircraft because it moves the turbulence from the tail area and raises it away from anything jumping out the back of the aircraft.


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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:48 pm

    Interview of Yuri Slyusar which confirms that the IL-96-400TZ is still alive and kicking. https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3360057
    As far as military transports are concerned, he talks about new IL-76/78s (using his production #s, it = 40 IL-78s will be ready in ~ 5 years),  w/o any mention of IL-96-400TZ in the discussion on the civilian IL-96-400, which btw, needs gov. help as it's not economically feasible in its present 4 engine form. Should oil prices go up, it'll be even less so. https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/5/2016/4/13/104/
    The conventional tail design is the most common form. It has one vertical stabilizer placed at the tapered tail section of the fuselage and one horizontal stabilizer divided into two parts, one on each side of the vertical stabilizer. For many airplanes, the conventional arrangement provides adequate stability and control with the lowest structural weight. About three-quarters of the airplanes in operation today, including the Airbus A300, the Boeing 777 and 747, and the Beech Bonanza A-36, use this arrangement.
    ..the horizontal stabilizer in the T-tail layout imposes a bending and twisting load on the vertical stabilizer, requiring a stronger, and therefore, a heavier, structure. These loads are avoided in the conventional design. There is also the possibility that at the high pitch angle usually associated with landing the airplane, the horizontal stabilizer of the T tail will be immersed in the slower and more turbulent flow of the wing wake. In some cases, it is possible to compromise severely the control function of the horizontal tail. Nevertheless, the T tail is the second-most common tail design after the conventional. Both major American transport plane builders, Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas, use the T-tail design. The Boeing 727, with its three fuselage-mounted engines, has a T-tail design, as do the variants of the McDonnell Douglas MD-90, formerly the Douglas DC-9. Other aircraft that employ the T-tail design are the Lockheed C-5A, the Gates Lear-jets 23 and 35A, the Cessna Citation CJ1, the Piper Lance II, and the Beech Skipper 77. http://what-when-how.com/flight/tail-designs/
    The T-tail sticks the elevators out of the disturbed air of the wings, prop, and (usually most of) the fuselage which gives you better elevator authority, and makes a tail stall less likely. .. using conventional tail leads to the fact that the airflow over the tail might be disturbed by the main wing and/or the engines and/or the fuselage. However, the downwash induced by the main wing on the flow is taken into account (for the cruise conditions) in the design of the tail in order to reduce some negative aspects of the interaction between the main wing and the tail. ..From a structural point of view, when flying transonic (or even supersonic) it is not good to have a T-tail configuration because it usually induces flutter on the tail.
    Finally, at a lower level but still a difference, using a T-tail increases the wake (compared to a conventional configuration, where the tail is almost in the wake of the main wings and the fuselage) behind your aircraft and thus the drag you need to overcome is larger. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1400/how-do-conventional-and-t-tails-differ
    Conventional tails have the advantage in terms of SYSTEM REDUNDANCY. Conventional tails can more easily equipped with hydraulic, wire, or mechanical systems that have no single point of failure. ..The conventional (lower) location for the horizontal stabilizer puts less stress on the vertical stabilizer. Therefore the vertical stabilizer can be lighter. ..Additional considerations are that the lower stabilizer location results in easier access for inspections and maintenance. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080307040012AAP6aKl
    In the only 1 crash of AN-124, its tail design didn't cause it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Irkutsk_Antonov_An-124_crash
    So, reduced weight, ease of design, construction & maintenance are the reasons the conventional tail was chosen instead of the T tail. The AN-70 also has it, but the A400M & Y-20 don't.
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    Dorfmeister

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Dorfmeister on Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:32 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Interview of Yuri Slyusar which confirms that the IL-96-400TZ is still alive and kicking. https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3360057
    As far as military transports are concerned, he talks about new IL-76/78s (using his production #s, it = 40 IL-78s will be ready in ~ 5 years),  w/o any mention of IL-96-400TZ in the discussion on the civilian IL-96-400

    You should learn russian, it'll be useful if you're really interested in russian stuff Cap'tain Obvious.

    "— Военные еще не отказались от производства Ил-96 в версии топливозаправщика?

    Нет, проект стоит на повестке дня. Разработка этого проекта предполагает создание целого мультифункционального комплекса. Этот проект нам интересен, к тому же, это продление жизни семейству Ил-96"

    This is an extract from the article I've linked earlier Rolling Eyes
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Transport Aircraft fleet (VTA)

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:21 pm

    OK, I missed it. To them, it's "alive", since they hope to get those orders, the reference I posted is from April 17th, the interview was printed on 7/18th, 2 months later. If there was any interest in the project, the gov. would confirm it by now. I don't recall any instance since the end of WWII of Soviet or RF gov. or sources "in the know" announcing of project cancellation & then changing its mind.
    I'm a native Russian speaker & don't need to learn it. Perhaps after the twin engine IL-98 or joint RF-PRC transport is built, we may see a tanker derivative, with Russian made engines. https://www.rt.com/business/344830-russia-china-joint-plane/
    https://www.rt.com/business/347492-russia-china-jet-engines/

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