Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Share
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16865
    Points : 17473
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:21 pm

    Because they asked an RFP to be issued to them , that's how .

    Well you should have told me. I could have entered my Top Gun Mig-28 Yakitory fighter that is in no way related to any Iranian aircraft program even though it looks like a black painted F-5.

    Because MIG calls it so , not the buyer

    But if a requirement is that the aircraft be in service then naming it Mig-29F and then renaming some RuAF Mig-29s Mig-29F would allow that criteria to be ticked off easily.

    Which means any aircraft that comes to AeroIndia will have to be purchased by the IAF ? FYI participation in AeroIndia is voluntary .

    When it didn't turn up they were asked why it didn't show up... clearly India wanted it to appear at its air show... clearly for reasons that had nothing to do with the MRCA competition.

    SO why did they enter this competition knowing fully well they can't afford it ?

    Why does any company pay for advertising? To get business. The problem however in this case is that it was clearly a competition they were never going to be able to win because there was already a decision not to buy Russian.

    The ridiculous thing is that for the price of the Rafales they could have simply bought more Su-30MKIs which would be arguably more capable, already in service, and rather cheaper, though I am sure they would have taken 5 years to negotiate the agreement.

    The only thing ridiculous is this assessment that MIG 35 components will fit into all the MIg 29s of the IAF which are already 2 decades old.

    The Mig-35 is not that different from early models of the Mig-29 in terms of size and shape. Electronically they are totally different, but it is the same with IBM clone computers... a Pentium II 133 MHz PC from 1997 with an ATX motherboard can be taken apart and the old case can be used to house a brand new motherboard and CPU and RAM and powersupply that all still use the ATX form factor. You end up with a modern and capable computer with an old shell.

    The old shell does not effect the performance.

    Not sure if it did .

    Please tell me what aircraft type could outfly an aircraft with TVC?

    " A fool and his money are soon parted " . If someone decided to buy last week's lottery ticket to enter this weeks lottery it can safely be concluded that this person has lost his mental composure.

    MIG are not fools, if they were told there is no chance they could be selected at the start they never would have entered.

    EADS, Lockheed , SAAB , Boeing have not filed for bankruptcy yet .

    What? Why do you keep bringing these companies up? The situation is different for them... they are not Russian companies and therefore their winning the competition was at least a possibility throughout the competition.

    The other factor of course is that each of these companies have little internal competition so they generally enjoy government support, which is not something Mig can rely on.

    That's why it no longer exists as it is now a part of UAC.

    Well if you want to be Mr Picky then Mig never existed. MiG is the aircraft design bureau, but after 1990 it became MIG a holding of several companies and factories. It is currently a division of UAC or OAK, and yes it does exist as an organisation.

    SAAB had promised full ToT if selected ,

    How could it manage that with US components in its engines and largely US weapons?

    {quote]
    I am assuming you had insider information on this .[/quote]

    Fairly logical assumption... they didn't decide at the end of the competition that they weren't going to choose a Russian aircraft.

    You are not listening . MIG was told this at the very onset not to compete .

    Well that is just stupid. If you don't want someone in a race then don't accept their entry and entry fee.

    No , no , not about compensation . The point that I was highlighting is that this is an example of a good decision in my view .

    What I think he is trying to say is that India is treating its military budget as a childs allowance.

    Making sure all the children get a fair amount is not what this is about because the fat lazy disobedient kid ends up getting the same amount as the children who do as they are told and pull their weight.

    Defence spending should be about Indian soldiers in the field getting the best and also the Indian tax payer getting value for money.

    Buying medium fighters that cost more than your Flanker heavy fighters and probably a similar price to your FFGA stealthy fighters just sounds like a bit of a joke.

    Buying, in fixed wing transport terms an An-12 when you could be buying an An-70 is equally very odd. Sure the An-70 will be more expensive to operate, but will also be significantly more capable.

    Hopefully the Russian AF and government will realise that there is more value in saving Mig than just letting it waste away. I hope they make the same realisation with Tupolev, because Russian defence MIC with only Sukhoi is a very limited future.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:22 am


    sujoy although i support the decision to buy rafael .i want to know as soon as rafael was selected within a few days the $10bill deal became $20 bill how /?
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2141
    Points : 2306
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:37 am

    The Rafale was the favourite from the outset. The original requirement (years ago) was for a upgrade of the Mirage 2000 but the French were pushing the Rafale. Eventually the whole process evolved into the MMRCA
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16865
    Points : 17473
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:22 am

    sujoy although i support the decision to buy rafael .i want to know as soon as rafael was selected within a few days the $10bill deal became $20 bill how /?

    Because that is how much 126 Rafales will cost.

    They wouldn't sell India more M2Ks and they wouldn't drop the price of the Rafale (Rafael is an Israeli company BTW).

    India basically started the MRCA program to find alternatives that were cheaper and the result is that they are probably paying more now for the Rafale than if they had just accepted Frances word.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Sujoy

    Posts : 903
    Points : 1069
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Well you should have told me. I could have entered my Top Gun Mig-28 Yakitory fighter that is in no way related to any Iranian aircraft program even though it looks like a black painted F-5.

    I had no idea that you don't have access to the media , or else I would have .
    GarryB wrote:But if a requirement is that the aircraft be in service then naming it Mig-29F and then renaming some RuAF Mig-29s Mig-29F would allow that criteria to be ticked off easily.

    Renaming would not have converted it into a new aircraft .

    GarryB wrote:When it didn't turn up they were asked why it didn't show up... clearly India wanted it to appear at its air show... clearly for reasons that had nothing to do with the MRCA competition.

    Turning up in air shows is inconsequential . Even the F 22 turns up at the Farnborough air show . There were buyers from a whole lot of Asian , African and Latin American countries who witnessed the performance of the MIG 35 in Aero India 2007 , why didn't they place order for it ?

    GarryB wrote:Why does any company pay for advertising? To get business. The problem however in this case is that it was clearly a competition they were never going to be able to win because there was already a decision not to buy Russian.

    They were told at the onset not to participate , they still did . Fair enough . They flunked the tests and MIG was given a de brief .
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/engines-and-radar-to-blame-for-mig-35-failure-in-mmrca-contest-360364/

    GarryB wrote:The ridiculous thing is that for the price of the Rafales they could have simply bought more Su-30MKIs which would be arguably more capable, already in service, and rather cheaper, though I am sure they would have taken 5 years to negotiate the agreement.

    And why would you assume this is not happening ? This is already happening . SU 30 MKI and Rafaels do not fall in the same category . The SU 30 MKI is a heavy strike aircraft like the F 15 SE whereas the Rafael is a light strike aircraft like the F 16D. If price was the only factor it makes more sense to buy LCA MK2 . For the price of one SU 30MKI they could have bought 2 LCAs.
    GarryB wrote:The Mig-35 is not that different from early models of the Mig-29 in terms of size and shape. Electronically they are totally different, but it is the same with IBM clone computers... a Pentium II 133 MHz PC from 1997 with an ATX motherboard can be taken apart and the old case can be used to house a brand new motherboard and CPU and RAM and powersupply that all still use the ATX form factor. You end up with a modern and capable computer with an old shell.

    The old shell does not effect the performance.

    It does . Case in point the SU 30 MKI's are being ripped open for the Super Sukhoi program. India's MIGs are two decade old .



    GarryB wrote:What? Why do you keep bringing these companies up? The situation is different for them... they are not Russian companies and therefore their winning the competition was at least a possibility throughout the competition.

    The MIG 35 had it not flunked the test would also have been considered . More importantly the MIG 29s that India continue to buy are bought without any RFPs . Maybe other companies can also cry foul.

    GarryB wrote:The other factor of course is that each of these companies have little internal competition so they generally enjoy government support, which is not something Mig can rely on.

    Mig's fortunes were already on a downward spiral . Sukhoi had stolen the march long ago and UAC does receive Govt.support.

    GarryB wrote:Well if you want to be Mr Picky then Mig never existed. MiG is the aircraft design bureau, but after 1990 it became MIG a holding of several companies and factories. It is currently a division of UAC or OAK, and yes it does exist as an organisation.

    You raised the question of MMRCA and Mig , I didn't .

    GarryB wrote:How could it manage that with US components in its engines and largely US weapons?
    It was for SAAB to manage concessions from the US . Their presentation stated that they can transfer 100% of the technology.

    GarryB wrote:Well that is just stupid. If you don't want someone in a race then don't accept their entry and entry fee.

    I have said this before and I will say this again . Entry is voluntary . And what you are saying is that MIG can't even afford an entry fee.
    GarryB wrote:What I think he is trying to say is that India is treating its military budget as a childs allowance.

    Those are your words ,not mine .

    GarryB wrote:Making sure all the children get a fair amount is not what this is about because the fat lazy disobedient kid ends up getting the same amount as the children who do as they are told and pull their weight.

    An illogical assumption and a story without a script.
    avatar
    Sujoy

    Posts : 903
    Points : 1069
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:17 am

    ricky123 wrote:
    sujoy although i support the decision to buy rafael .i want to know as soon as rafael was selected within a few days the $10bill deal became $20 bill how /?

    That never happened . The price stands at $11 billion ( taken into account depreciation of the local currency )

    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-09-08/news/33696640_1_eurofighter-typhoon-french-rafale-mmrca-tender
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16865
    Points : 17473
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:42 am

    Renaming would not have converted it into a new aircraft .

    None of the aircraft entered in the MRCA program were new.

    They were told at the onset not to participate , they still did . Fair enough .

    So far we only have your statement that they were told not to enter.

    If the purpose of the competition was to get France to lower its prices or include technology it was otherwise not inclined to include then it would be in Indias' interests that Mig did compete to pressure the French.

    And why would you assume this is not happening ? This is already happening . SU 30 MKI and Rafaels do not fall in the same category . The SU 30 MKI is a heavy strike aircraft like the F 15 SE whereas the Rafael is a light strike aircraft like the F 16D. If price was the only factor it makes more sense to buy LCA MK2 . For the price of one SU 30MJI they could have bought 2.

    If the F-16 cost as much as a Rafale and an F-15E cost as much as a Flanker then there would be no purpose to buying Rafales. The whole concept of high and low fighters is that the low fighter is a cheap aircraft that can be bought in enormous numbers while the bigger heavier aircraft maintains superiority. If the smaller lighter less capable aircraft is the most expensive then it has no reason to be.

    It does . Case in point the SU 30 MKI's are being ripped open for the Super Sukhoi program. India's MIGs are two decade old .

    Both aircraft would be ripped open, the innards replaced and then be sealed up again. The Mig-35 has a new larger wing that can be bolted on, but otherwise is pretty similar to the Mig-29 it was developed from. The same can be said for the Flanker.


    The MIG 35 had it not flunked the test would also have been considered .

    What test did it fail?

    More importantly the MIG 29s that India continue to buy are bought without any RFPs . Maybe other companies can also cry foul.

    To be comparable a competition should have been started to decide on a company to upgrade the Indian Mig-29s left in service. To be comparable after a 5 year competition with lots of tests and airshow appearances the Indians will declare that Mig is the winner because no other company is allowed to work on Indian Migs except MIG, so despite MIG demanding 20 billion instead of the 10 billion for the original tender they will win the competition.

    Of course the other companies would cry foul at that because they never really had a chance of winning the competition.



    Mig's fortunes were already on a downward spiral

    A downward trend shared by most Russian companies where most of their customers were not part of NATO or had recently been invaded by the US.

    It was for SAAB to manage concessions from the US . Their presentation stated that they can transfer 100% of the technology.

    So they basically lied.

    Any Congressman could have stood up at any time in Congress and blocked any agreement relating to US components in the Gripen being sold to India.

    I have said this before and I will say this again . Entry is voluntary . And what you are saying is that MIG can't even afford an entry fee.

    Why would anyone enter a race they know they can't win?

    They wont.

    Clearly this suggests that they clearly had the idea that they could change the minds of the politicians or the military. Fairly easy thing to do really if you want them there to put pressure on the French bid...

    a story without a script.

    A story without a script... = the real world. Very Happy

    The price stands at $11 billion ( taken into account depreciation of the local currency )

    According to that article the Rafale was the lowest bidder... I suspect that was to secure the deal but over time the price will change significantly.

    I really don't believe they will sell India Rafales for less than MIG can sell Mig-35s.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10764
    Points : 11243
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:00 am

    Τhis topic is for helicopters, Chinook won the competition so the matter is over

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:24 pm

    George1 wrote:Τhis topic is for helicopters, Chinook won the competition so the matter is over
    true but i enjoy reading the arguments of both gary and sujoy .they both r so good ;p

    sujoy wasnt ther some other deal tied to the rafale deals ? i mean like france allowing india to test nukes in one of thier facilities ?









    ps :sry for posting the external link in the other thread i have quit that forum which is run by bunch of teenagers i guess

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:11 pm

    The result for the combat helicopters was announced earlier, and for the heavy lift, it should be officially announced within a few days. But sources confirmed that the Chinook is L-1, or the lowest in acquisition and maintenance costs in the official jargon.

    Notably, IAF has been using the Mi 26 for a quarter century now, and there appeared to be a leaning towards this machine because of familiarity and the fact that it can carry more weight than the Chinook. But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

    The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes. In terms of operational capability, while the Mi 26 can carry more weight, it is nowhere near the American machine.

    In fact in the Himalayan heights, the Mi 26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift. According to Lt Gen BS Pawar (Retd), an expert on rotorcraft, the newer version of the Chinook which India will get from the US , is a proven machine and perhaps the best in comparison to other helicopters. “It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles.”

    Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped,” Lt Gen Pawar observed adding that the aircraft has also proved extremely useful in disaster relief operations.
    source
    Code:
    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1789_Boeings_Chinook_wins_Indian_heavy_lift_helicopter_tender.htm

    doesnt russian make new mil26 anymore ???
    avatar
    Sujoy

    Posts : 903
    Points : 1069
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:14 pm

    ricky123 wrote:sujoy wasnt ther some other deal tied to the rafale deals ?

    One of the spinoffs of the MMRCA deal was to establish an Industrial relation with the country that wins this deal . Now, it is not just confined to the Air Force . It could very easily be with the Army and the Navy . France has agreed to sell crucial technology related to the Scorpene submarine to India so that they can be designed in Mumbai(Mazagon docks) . Dassault will also provide some inputs for the LCA MK2 and the Aura UCAV project . No such deals have been signed but it is understood that these are the offers that France made .

    ricky123 wrote:i mean like france allowing india to test nukes in one of thier facilities ?
    India already received data about nuclear tests from the USSR . India in all likelihood will not test another nuclear device in the near future as their is an unilateral moratorium in place. Also, EU regulation will not allow France to co-operate with India in developing nuclear weapons . France , does NOT tests it's nuclear weapons in it's own territory . They last tested in the SOuth Pacific .

    P.S - This discussion should ideally be in the "India" thread.
    avatar
    Sujoy

    Posts : 903
    Points : 1069
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:26 pm

    ricky123 wrote:
    The result for the combat helicopters was announced earlier, and for the heavy lift, it should be officially announced within a few days. But sources confirmed that the Chinook is L-1, or the lowest in acquisition and maintenance costs in the official jargon.

    Notably, IAF has been using the Mi 26 for a quarter century now, and there appeared to be a leaning towards this machine because of familiarity and the fact that it can carry more weight than the Chinook. But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

    The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes. In terms of operational capability, while the Mi 26 can carry more weight, it is nowhere near the American machine.

    In fact in the Himalayan heights, the Mi 26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift. According to Lt Gen BS Pawar (Retd), an expert on rotorcraft, the newer version of the Chinook which India will get from the US , is a proven machine and perhaps the best in comparison to other helicopters. “It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles.”

    Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped,” Lt Gen Pawar observed adding that the aircraft has also proved extremely useful in disaster relief operations.
    source
    Code:
    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1789_Boeings_Chinook_wins_Indian_heavy_lift_helicopter_tender.htm

    doesnt russian make new mil26 anymore ???

    Actually the latest variant called the MI 46 was offered . But in deciding the L1 MoD has considered the life cycle costs as is normally done .

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:31 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:sujoy wasnt ther some other deal tied to the rafale deals ?

    One of the spinoffs of the MMRCA deal was to establish an Industrial relation with the country that wins this deal . Now, it is not just confined to the Air Force . It could very easily be with the Army and the Navy . France has agreed to sell crucial technology related to the Scorpene submarine to India so that they can be designed in Mumbai(Mazagon docks) . Dassault will also provide some inputs for the LCA MK2 and the Aura UCAV project . No such deals have been signed but it is understood that these are the offers that France made .

    ricky123 wrote:i mean like france allowing india to test nukes in one of thier facilities ?
    India already received data about nuclear tests from the USSR . India in all likelihood will not test another nuclear device in the near future as their is an unilateral moratorium in place. Also, EU regulation will not allow France to co-operate with India in developing nuclear weapons . France , does NOT tests it's nuclear weapons in it's own territory . They last tested in the SOuth Pacific .

    P.S - This discussion should ideally be in the "India" thread.

    i have read in some papers that france has a facility where it cant test nukes andsince india has signed nuke deal with usa which doesnt allow india to test nuke again .india was looking at france to test its weapons in secret and i am not talking off exploding nukes .but some kind of nuke tech which can be experimented in france

    Austin

    Posts : 6439
    Points : 6840
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Russia Looses IAF Tanker Deal

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:12 am

    One more loss in recent times , Russia looses Tanker Deal

    EADS/Airbus Wins Indian Tanker Competition

    EADS/Airbus has won the Indian Air Force's $1.3-billion tanker competition, with its A330 MRTT beating the Il-78M. While an official confirmation is still awaited, DefenceNews (which broke the story) reports that the A330 won on overall lifecycle, maintenance and fuel costs, but still fell behind on unit cost per aircraft -- like it did the last time. The competition was aborted in an earlier attempt after the Indian Ministry of Finance refused to accept the IAF's plea that the A330 would be a more economical aircraft to operate, even if the cost of the deal was markedly higher than the Russian bid. The cancellation had been a stinging blow to EADS.

    EADS will remain cautious on the win until negotiations actually start. The last time, a proposed deal with EADS for the same aircraft was shot down by the Ministry of Finance, though this time the company is understood to have approached the competition differently.

    Austin

    Posts : 6439
    Points : 6840
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:17 am

    Tenders in which Russian have lost recently

    1 ) MMRCA ( Europe )
    2 ) P-8I versus Tu-142M ( US )
    3 ) Attack Helicopter ( US )
    4 ) Heavy Helicopter ( US )
    5 ) Refuellers ( Europe )

    Competition still running

    LOH ( Russia vs Europe )
    P-75I Submarine Deal ( Russia vs Europe )

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:08 am

    what is the total estimated loss of bussiness in $

    Austin

    Posts : 6439
    Points : 6840
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:34 am

    Total loss lets get a rough estimate

    MMRCA ===> $20 billion
    P-8I ===> $ 2 billion
    Attack Helicopter ===> $1 billion
    Heavy Helicopter =====> $ 1 billion
    Refuellers ========> $ 1 -2 billion


    So total estimated lost is $ 25 billion
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16865
    Points : 17473
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:23 am

    Loss is not the correct term... you have to have something before you can lose it.

    1 ) MMRCA ( Europe )
    2 ) P-8I versus Tu-142M ( US )
    3 ) Attack Helicopter ( US )
    4 ) Heavy Helicopter ( US )
    5 ) Refuellers ( Europe )

    In hindsight the MMRCA is not a surprise as they were largely replacing the M2K, so the Rafale makes sense.

    The Tu-142M is not in production, while the P-8 is a brand new platform and is also understandible.

    The Apache is a mature, if expensive system that also makes sense to buy.

    In terms of refuelling aircraft the Airbus is not a bad aircraft and can probably be in service faster than an Il-76 based aircraft model could.

    The only glaring fly in the oinment is the selection of the Chinook over the Mi-26... they either selected the Chinook and then based their requirements around it, or it was simply a political decision to go American no matter what.

    Whatever the reasoning, unlike the other competitions the Indian military are not getting the best tool for the job.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16865
    Points : 17473
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia in India Army tenders

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:00 am

    Τhis topic is for helicopters, Chinook won the competition so the matter is over

    Quite right George1 thanks for reminding us.

    But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

    This chap might want to tell this to Mil because Mil are going to be restarting production for the Russian military with the brand new Mi-26T2 model with vastly improved cockpit and two crew (plus load handler) and greatly upgraded electronics and equipment.

    The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes.

    A navy might find that useful, but AFAIK these aircraft are being bought by the Indian Air Force.

    In fact in the Himalayan heights, the Mi 26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift.

    All aircraft suffer performance wise in hot and high conditions. The Mi-26T2 will carry a heavier payload than the Chinook whereever and whenever it is used.

    “It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles.”

    Yet, when forced down it is the Mi-26 that is sent in to recover the Chinook...


    Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped,” Lt Gen Pawar observed adding that the aircraft has also proved extremely useful in disaster relief operations.

    I believe you are talking about supercomputer simulation software to allow simulated nuclear explosions to test new designs without actually detonating anything.

    Mil are also offering the Mi-26T2 to France and Germany for use as a heavy helicopter program.

    The deal is pretty much a case of either buy the Russian helo or develop their own.

    For this reason the Mi-26T2 is largely oriented to NATO and European standards.

    Chinook is not even considered as it is in a different payload class.

    Amusing the comments about the Mi-26 in service for a quarter of a century... the Chinook is rather older.

    BTW regarding production:

    In July 2010 proposed Russian-Chinese development of a 33-ton heavy-lift helicopter was announced.[6]

    Russian helicopter manufacturer, Rostvertol is in the process of refurbishing and upgrading the entire fleet of Mi-26s serving in the Russian Air Force. The fleet is estimated to number around 20 helicopters. Refurbished and upgraded aircraft will be comparable to an up-to-date variant: Mi-26T. Contract completion is planned for 2015. The same contract covers the manufacture of 22 brand new Mi-26T helicopters. As of January 2012, eight new-production helicopters have been delivered to operational units.[7]

    Service entry dates are 1962 for Chinook and 1983 for Mi-26.

    The Mi-26T2 can carry underslung gun loads and has the payload capacity to carry a truck and spare ammo and the gun crew inside the helo so the entire ground mobile unit can be delivered in one load.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2141
    Points : 2306
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:05 am

    GarryB wrote:they either selected the Chinook and then based their requirements around it

    As was this one.

    I don't really follow these things closely, but looks like in some cases they have to go through a tender process to satisfy some internal legal formality when they already know what they're gonna order.


    Austin

    Posts : 6439
    Points : 6840
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Loss is not the correct term... you have to have something before you can lose it.


    Lets call it then potential loss.

    Its really a series of bad luck for the Russians or they must be having a product worst then its competitors or Russian must be doing something stupid to loose in series

    Mindstorm

    Posts : 776
    Points : 953
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:57 am



    This tender rebid speak volume on the expedients entering into play when a selection (pressed by a part of IA) do no meet tender's parameters: this Indian Tanker rebid has been literally redesigned to allow A-330, taking into account a very long time span , to appear ultimately cheaper than Il-78MKI.


    Already in 2009 (when dollar-rupee exchange ratio was much more favourable than today) A-330 acquisition price was esteemed almost the double of Il-78 "Midas" with a difference of about 4000 crore.

    Now, this rebid ,in order to make the A-330 appear the lower bidder, employ a very old "trick" (used very often in western media and by weapon operators marketers to mask the ridiculously high price of theirs products ): it examine a time window some dozen of years long to obtain, thanks to supposed lower operating costs, a cost figure for a competing platform lower than the aggregated cost of procurement of the competing product with its "life cycle" costs over an operation life of 25-30 years.


    This approach is, obviously, nothing more than ,a very well known, marketing expedient devoid of any financial basis : in fact the over 4000 crore of difference between the two platforms would be at disposition of Indian Government from day one to be employed in the most profitable way in those 25-30 years , from investments in productive activities (generating, over the time window taken into consideration, not only work for its citizens and industrial basis for its national Economy but also cumulative incomes for India ) to R&D programs (capable to increase scientific advancements and perspective competitiveness of Indian products).


    Even only the less profitable option to create, with the "ready" cash representing initial acquisition costs difference between the two platforms, a sovereign fund and putting it in a secured bank account abroad (anyone is aware of what interest's rates practice some Swiss banks on "blocked" Sovereign funds of this size) would assure ,with capitalized interests long 20-25 years, a money amount equal to 7 - 8 times the ...supposed...difference in life-cycle operating costs.




    avatar
    Sujoy

    Posts : 903
    Points : 1069
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:15 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:This tender rebid speak volume on the expedients entering into play when a selection (pressed by a part of IA) do no meet tender's parameters: this Indian Tanker rebid has been literally redesigned to allow A-330, taking into account a very long time span , to appear ultimately cheaper than Il-78MKI.

    Mindstorm , though I cannot independently confirm if this deal was rigged to favor A 330 I broadly agree with your points. Maybe once the Chief Vigilance Officer comes up with a report we will get to know . I must add here that the present Defense Minister is honest to a fault and has not hesitated in blacklisting heavyweights like IMI and Rheinmetall from doing business in India as they were found guilty of giving bribes .

    That said it is no longer a surprise to me that Russia has lost quite a few bids in India ( and I do not include the MMRCA). The reasons for that are easy to find. The competitors (Boeing and EADS in this case)will go to great length to be little the product of the opponent. This is basically a US ploy but of late the Europeans have also picked it up . In the presentation for the heavy lift aircraft that Boeing had presented it was basically a MI 26 bashing presentation .

    Let's stay the course and understand why the IAF went for the A 330 ( according to the IAF) :

    (A) As much as the IAF would like to acquire the IL-78MKI-90 for obvious reasons, the main problem is the on-going spat between Uzbekistan and Russia regarding the aircraft's co-production status and unless Russia is able to commission its alternate aircraft production facility in Voronezh in the very near future, one can bid a definite goodbye to follow-on IL-78MKI-90 orders from India. Let us not forget that a deal struck between Russia and China in 2005 for 38 IL-76MFs and four IL-78MKKs was not fulfilled till 2010 .

    (B) The unavailability of new-build IL-78MKI-90 airframes from Russia .WHich poses another interesting question: which platform will be selected for meeting the IAF's follow-on requirement for four PHALCON AEW & C systems? Will it be ex-Russian Air Force IL-76MD airframes that will be re-lifed and re-engined, or will it be Boeing's E-767s (like the ones in service with Japan) which, again, can be refuelled in mid-air only by probes of the type found on board the A330MRTT or Boeing B.767-300ER?

    (C) The A 330 is a tanker that has optimum fuel capacity and still does not interfere with the space in the main cargo deck -- which means the A330 can refuel, deliver men and equipment in a single compound sortie, giving logistical planners a huge amount of operational planning flexibility.

    (D) The IAF is also apparently mighty impressed with the fact that the A330 (teamed with Northrop Grumman, designated KC-45) won the US Air Force's 179 new refueller contest -- a solicitation that has since been cancelled, following Boeing's protest. But the point hit home. A company considered an enemy to American industry in the old days managed to convince the USAF that its tanker was better than old faithful Boeing's 767. That alone has endeared the plane to customer around the world.

    Everything said by far the BIGGEST reason why Russia continues to loose deals in India is because the supply has been found to be un-reliable and erratic . The cost of maintenance goes up drastically if supplies are not received at the right time. Of late and unfortunately Russia has jacked up the price of military hardware that it sells to India unilaterally as was witnessed with the SU 30 deal . That's the reason why there is such a huge impetus on the offset clause . The thinking is that if local companies are in the loop procuring spares as and when necessary becomes easier.

    India-Russia military-technical cooperation is not across-the-board & is isolated to a few select areas only. Sustained people-to-people contact in all spheres of military-industrial businesses between India & Russia is either non-existent or is highly regulated, which prevents Indian companies (as sub-contractors) from becoming part of the global supply chain for Russian OEMs.

    Firebird

    Posts : 958
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Firebird on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:49 pm

    Its a bit puzzling really. Is India speaking to all these different places to acquire tech to explore and learn?
    Is it hedging bets so that it can keep political options open. Is RUssia not dirty and shifty enough in handling rivals? I'm sure Boeing do every trick in the book.

    Or, is Russia still coming back up to speed after over a decade in the doldrums(courtesy of Gorbachev and Yeltsin)?

    Will we be seeing these things in 5 years time, or will Russia still be the massively undisputed leader of supplying her friendly states?
    Maybe India will be spending little time in importing and have most work done in house (except on Pak-fa, nuclear subs, Brahmos etc).

    Maybe India always considered herself a buyer from multiple locations, and sees no need to change that just yet?


    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:07 pm

    Firebird wrote:Its a bit puzzling really. Is India speaking to all these different places to acquire tech to explore and learn?
    Is it hedging bets so that it can keep political options open. Is RUssia not dirty and shifty enough in handling rivals? I'm sure Boeing do every trick in the book.

    Or, is Russia still coming back up to speed after over a decade in the doldrums(courtesy of Gorbachev and Yeltsin)?

    Will we be seeing these things in 5 years time, or will Russia still be the massively undisputed leader of supplying her friendly states?
    Maybe India will be spending little time in importing and have most work done in house (except on Pak-fa, nuclear subs, Brahmos etc).

    Maybe India always considered herself a buyer from multiple locations, and sees no need to change that just yet?


    apart from the millitary ties india has with russia . i have to say i love russia more then any other country . and i dont know how much russia needs india economicly but i am sure geopolitically it will be fatal to lose india as a strategic partner to the usa ...

    i am indian and i know indians any forienger who praises india gets a lots of love from indian people and americans have realised that .. they have been running a campaign of sort like on utube videos and world media praising indian and american coperation .and not to forget millitary excercise with india . and every year they have a strategic dailogue once in usa and then in india . hillary clinton has visited india so many times now she can almost pronounce all the states in india correctly . and they r targetting states like gujrat and westbengal where there is scope for american bussiness . even isreal is not behind they r targetting tamilnadu and gujrat .. all these things are played in the media over and over again creating a good vibe for the west ....

    i love russia and thier people and i want them to step up ... india and russia can do more then just millitary deals .. Russia canceled joint army and naval exercises with India allegedly in response to the elimination of Mikoyan MiG-35 from the Indian MRCA competition such type of attitude doesnt help india or russia ..

    i lived in dubai for 10 years during those times russia had economic problems and all the russians i met thier were so good and respectfull .

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:57 pm