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    Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

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    Austin

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:03 pm

    Yes As I understand we would be getting the AH-64D Block 3 with all the bells and whistles . Right now the Apache is a better and more mature platform but Mi-28 has more future potential plus logistic advantage with its common engine with Mi-17.

    The Mi-28NM which will come by 2015 will have all the bells and whistles that can match any one out there.

    Condi Rice in her recent book to be published mentioned that India has promised them that it would buy US arms in return for US supporting India on 123 Nuclear Deal.

    So expect more US purchase in the future we have already purchased big stuff like C-17,C-130 and now Apache more would come I am afraid.

    http://books.hindustantimes.com/2011/10/condoleezza-rice/

    ‘India agreed to buy US defence products in return for deal’

    “The Indians made it clear, too, that they hoped to become a customer for US military hardware,” Rice says in a chapter titled, “Building a new relationship with India.” The context of the Indian commitment was the nuclear deal.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:48 pm

    I agree with GarryB on the "diagnosis" of the Indian attack helicopters choice between Mi-28N and Apache-D block III founded mostly on technical basis (the question of US support on the 123 Nuclear Deal has ,in my opinion, only a secondary influence)

    AH-64D is simply a platform ready ,well tested and,above anything, with all main systems already integrated and validated for operation; the risks associated with AH-64D Block3 acceptance in Indian Forces is next to zero , Mi-28N ,on the other hand, while in my opinion a platform with a basis design,structure and parametrical fundamentals and grow edge superior to its American counterpart (as in the past already well demonstrated in Sweden Army evaluation tests between AH-64A and Mi-28) is ,at actual stage, an immature platform still lacking credible integration and validation of some truly crucial systems ,like the radar and a full structured DAS (in my opinion beginning the works for integration of President-S DAS on Ka-52 instead of Mi-28N was an enormous strategical mistake by part of Russia).

    The last words go to Hermes-A ,one more time a weapon virtually superior to those now operative or in development ,in the same operational niche, in USA but still in the testing phase.
    India, in my opinion has choosed ,at reason, the less risky option and ,anyhow, a very well tested and very good platform with outstanding avionics and a weapon "package" efficient and battle tested in war conditions.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:08 am

    Yes, Mindstorm, if we look at it piece by piece we can see why the Apache would win on technical grounds as from what I have read the Mi-28N wasn't fitted with a functioning radar.

    Equally AFAIK it had ATAKA missiles, and while it clearly finally had IR and laser threat warning systems (as seen near the nose) it didn't seem to be fitted with the full president DIRCMs system either, which means it had flares and chaff in the wingtip dispensers.

    The old TOR thermal sights have been criticised too.

    By 2015 the Mi-28M will have a more streamlined nose to allow higher flight speed and enlarged 30mm cannon ammo capacity (which is a fully dual feed system firing AP and HE ammo options).
    It should have a functioning radar system that includes CM and MM wave radar for air search and ground search respectively which should significantly exceed the range performance of the AH-64Ds radar. The new optics should provide a much better view of the battlefield, the helmet mounted sights include two large FOV glasses for a decent view rather than the small optics for one eye for the Apache that Apache pilots have described as like flying while looking through a straw.
    The new Krisantema is supposed to be a fire and forget homing missile with a range of at least 8km, while the Hermes heavy missile will double that range with a warhead of 30kgs that will demolish most targets from any angle.
    And of course with the President-M self protection suite it should be well protected from the most common threat to low flying aircraft... IR guided SAMs.

    Still the Indians seem to be prepared to spend the money... half a billion dollars for a C-17 transport aircraft, and from what I have read... 100 million for each Apache.

    To get high mission rates in Iraq the spares and maintainence budget and schedule respectively were tripled to ensure good availability rates... she will be expensive to keep in the air... but then the order is only for 22 machines which is a tiny number anyway... it is going to make them even more expensive.

    I am surprised they didn't consider a late model Cobra... able to perform 80% of the same missions but much cheaper and simpler and carrier capable too.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:28 am

    Technical considerations aside, I think it was mainly a political decision.

    A few moths ago, there was a report that license manufacture of the Mi-28 was being offered as part of a more substantive deal. But it's their money and can spend it how they see fit. This talk of a special relationship with India is just political rhetoric. They are strictly a commercial partner on a case by case basis.

    I can't see any logic in Russia's policy of limiting it's military cooperation with China to pander to Indian sensitivities....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:59 am

    It limits its military sales to China because whatever they sell to China, China suddenly starts producing a domestic version that is slightly different that they offer for export in direct competition with the Russian original.

    So Russia seems to have adopted a position that it will sell only older lower tech stuff that is not their best, and to use the funds generated from those sales to fund improved versions.

    To be honest, the demanding conditions in India, it would end up a lot of extra work just for selling 22 helos.

    On the other hand the Heavy lift and light helicopter programs are rather more interesting... heavy helos are rarely made in large numbers anyway, and light helos in large numbers will be good for the Ka-226T, and I suspect due to its coaxial rotor system it will be able to fly very well in hot and high conditions and will be ideal for their needs.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:34 am

    GarryB wrote:It limits its military sales to China because whatever they sell to China, China suddenly starts producing a domestic version that is slightly different that they offer for export in direct competition with the Russian original.

    That's proven to be largely a myth so far. Apart from some hysterical media reports, I haven't seen any official Russian complaints or seen the J-11 up against the Su-27/30 in any tender. They seem to produce their versions for their own air force only, which is probably part of the deal.

    In any case, I'm talking about development of new stuff via joint ventures. The Chinese industrial capabilities have made major improvements since the 1990's



    To be honest, the demanding conditions in India, it would end up a lot of extra work just for selling 22 helos.

    On the other hand the Heavy lift and light helicopter programs are rather more interesting... heavy helos are rarely made in large numbers anyway, and light helos in large numbers will be good for the Ka-226T, and I suspect due to its coaxial rotor system it will be able to fly very well in hot and high conditions and will be ideal for their needs.

    We shall see...

    ________________________


    A Russian Journalist view on the tender....among other things, he thinks the crash of the Mi-28 a while ago played a part

    (rough but readable translation)

    The new does not mean the best - Denis Kovalenko,
    October 26, 2011

    Why Russian helicopter lost in the U.S. Air Force tender for India?


    Despite the fact that the Mi-28N was created as a direct response to AH-64 Longbow Apache, and their characteristics are very similar, the Indians chose not to our helicopter. The reason for that are not only technological and political circumstances, but an unfortunate incident that occurred at the demonstration firings of the Russian helicopter.

    The Mi-28N "Night Hunter" (according to NATO classification Havoc) began to develop back in the 80s of last century as our response to the American AH-64 Apache.

    Both machines are made ​​for single-rotor with fixed landing gear and tail wheel, engines are located in nacelles on the sides of the fuselage. In the cab, two members of the crew, one above the other. "Hunter" has turned out nearly 3 tons heavier than the American, but that you have installed more powerful engines (two against two 2200 hp to 1930 hp), power-to-takeoff weight of his best, which means a higher constructive excellence and performance characteristics.

    The maximum combat load of "Apache" - 771 lbs. In Mi-28, for comparison, 2,300 kg.

    In almost a similar principle of arming both helicopters, consisting of guns, guided and unguided missiles, apparently very similar, and even hung similar. Guns are about the same: it is a single-moving automatic guns of 30 mm caliber, established under the "chin" turret on a helicopter with approximately equal angles of fire, working in sync with the gun.

    But actually the difference between them is enormous. "Apache" is armed with a gun M230, designed specifically for him, it's relatively light weight of 54 kg gun with a rate of 625 rds / min., effective range against ground targets - 3,000 m, and its shortcomings - poor shooting accuracy, a relatively small initial velocity and insufficient capacity of shells. However, this is compensated by a large ammunition that when fired at short range is more important.

    On the Mi mounted a modified tank gun 2A42, a long and successful combatant in the Russian infantry combat vehicles and helicopters Mi-24. It is twice as heavy as the American - 115 kg. Placing it on the outside of the turret is extremely difficult - the recoil from it swings the helicopter and decreases accuracy. Nevertheless, the designers with the problem successfully managed, and accuracy of fire at the "Hunter" is higher than that of "Apache." In addition, the ballistic data fitted to the Mi-28 gun is far ahead of the American guns. The American projectile weight - 0.24 kg, while the Mi twice as much - 0.4 kg. Minute volley "Apache", "weight" of 147 kg, with twice as many MI - 301 kg. Range of shooting at our helicopters more - 4,000 m. As above, and the initial velocity of the projectile: the "Apache" - 550 m / sec., The Mi nearly twice as many - 980 m / sec.

    That provides exceptional accuracy and effectivness against armor. Russian helicopter with ease striking at a distance of 1500 m against 15 mm steel armor.

    Another difference - "Apache" can only shoot in short bursts because of the possibility of overheating the gun. Mi-28 is no problem to release immediately all the ammunition.
    The four external sites for both helicopters is suspended for 16 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). In MI it's supersonic missile precision "Ataka-V" with a radio command-guided with high noise immunity. Its range - 8 km. Possible to install anti-tank "Vikrh" laser-guided. Main armament of "Apache" - missile Hellfire AGM-114A laser-guided for the day. In poor visibility it is not feasible. But, as we are assured the Americans, arming the helicopter may be included missile AGM-114B with a radar-guidance. All anti-tank of the family "Hellfire", capable of engaging armored targets from a distance of 6-7 km, effective with the shooting at a moving small targets, fortifications, etc. .

    But they have one drawback - they are subsonic. This greatly increases the time of the attack, especially at large distances, increasing the vulnerability of the helicopter. Thus, the distance of 4 km U.S. rocket flies for 15 seconds., While the "Vikrh" it takes only 9 seconds. Mi-28N - the only helicopter in the world, capable of both manual and in automatic mode to fly at an altitude of five meters from the rounding of the terrain, day and night, in adverse weather conditions. "Apache" can not.

    To compare the characteristics of machines you can continue. But is there any sense because "calibrate" the two helicopters, which, in general, copy each other? Then why India chose this American helicopter and not Russian? In this regard, the expert community has a few opinions. The main one is that by law, Delhi should vary the purchase of arms and military equipment. That is to buy all the weapons in one hand he can not. Using this principle, the Indian market to actively make their way U.S. companies. Washington offers a full line of Delhi - from the military transport aircraft and attack helicopters to the fifth generation fighter F-35. We lost a tender to supply military transport aircraft. Instead, our IL-76 Delhi prefer to buy six U.S. C-130J-30 Super Hercules. For them to pay nearly $ 1 billion figure astronomical, considering that IL-76 would cost considerably less.

    In the case of "Apache" Agency for Defense Cooperation and Security U.S. Department of Defense (Defense Security Cooperation Agency) in the early years of the Congress informed possibility of supply of engines, equipment, weapons, training tools, spare parts and logistics facilities for the 22 attack helicopters, AH-64D «Apache Longbow," participating in the tender of the Ministry of Defence of India. This decision, the Americans have seriously undermined the position of the Mi-28N. Also - and this is perhaps the most important condition - the "Apache" is a long time series. He participated in virtually all military conflicts of recent times, has attended the U.S. Army. In his armament and avionics constantly amended in the light of this experience.
    Mi-28 fell into the army only in 2006. Since 2008, began its development instructor pilot in Torzhok. In 2010, the Army received a full squadron of "Night Hunter". Now formed the second. The Indians already had experience in purchasing "pre" samples of Russian arms. And certainly do not want, as in past times, get the whole bunch of related problems, more so for their own money.

    Last year, during an exercise at the landfill during Gorokhovets practical shooting high-precision missiles, one of our Mi-28N has fallen. Thanks to the machine design - shock-absorbing chassis and a capsule in which the pilots are capable of withstanding an overload of 15 g, the pilots survived. But the fact that the engines of the helicopter from getting stalled rocket exhaust, the Indians certainly been noticed. And to convince them that now this annoying defect is eliminated, is useless. Even showing footage of the latest exercises, where a group of Mi-28 produces full ammunition and guided missiles remained after this in the air. As they say Russian experts in the Indian tender our only argument was that we Delhi - strategic partners for many years supplied India their weapons. It did not work.

    But the chance to replay the situation remains. The fact that a decision on procurement of various types of weapons takes the Prime Minister. His decision is largely driven by the political preferences of the party which nominated him for the post. That is, if the party functionaries will adhere to the pro-American position, it will buy American technology. If the European views - would buy European fighters, as is currently happening in the tender for the supply of light fighters, of whom recently left our MiG-35. But the fact that elections in Indian states are literally every month. It's constantly changing political situation in the country. And the gain of one party in October, can easily be replaced by the defeat in November. And with it will change and the prime minister. So the chances of the Russian manufacturers of arms and military equipment to recover their lost positions always remain.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:25 am

    Regarding joint deals... joint deals with India usually involve Russian expertise in key areas India lacks experience combined with Indian funds and Indian expertise in electronics or software etc.
    Russian joint ventures with China were basically about Chinese money going into cash starved Russian companies.

    Whether the Chinese are actually successful in selling copied Russian products in competition with the original Russian makers is not important, the fact is that they have produced their own "su-27s" without permission, and have also revealed "versions" of other products like the S-300 etc which makes them an unreliable customer in terms of technology sharing.


    And if that crash is a reason to not buy the Mi-28N then it should also be a reason not to buy the Apache because AFAIK at least one British Apache crashed after firing a weapon from an inner pylon which created a gas plume that reduced the effect of the tail rotor and made the aircraft lose flight control, and after that British Apaches were forbidden from firing weapons from their inner pylons till further notice.

    The Mi-28M will have 2,700hp engines fitted.

    More importantly I have seen footage of testing showing 14.5mm HMG placed a few metres away from an Mi-28 and fired at both the side structure and the transparencies and it failed to penetrate... in comparison the much larger side transparencies of the Apache have been penetrated with rifle fire.

    I said it before and I will say it again, if India is going to pick its weapons to ensure they don't all come from the same source (no matter how reliable that source is) then it would be better for Russia to win the heavy and light helicopter competitions than the attack helo competition simply based on the numbers involved.

    I would suspect that Mil will be getting a significant share of the 1,000 odd helos the Russian military are going to buy up to 2020, and exports of Mi-8/-17s are going strong due to their performance in Iraq and Afghanistan... even Pakistan are buying them so the fact that they didn't win this competition is not that important in the general scheme of things.

    Personally I think they should make two models, one simple and straight forward with good optics and systems but no radar, the other can be the all bells and whistles model with a full radar suite.

    It does seem that the Russian military seems to have focused on the Ka-52 a bit more than the Mi-28 as the Ka-52 seems to be fitted out with a UAV control system that the Mi-28 could probably use too. The Apache is supposed to be getting that capability too in the near future as well.
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    TheArmenian

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    Russian in India Army Tenders

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:43 am

    It would anyways be hard for the Russians to win both the attack helicopter and the heavy-lift helicopter tenders.
    Both choppers are built solely in the Rostvertol plant which is already busy enough assembling considerable amounts Mi-28s, Mi-35s and Mi-26s for the Russian airforce. They also have orders for the Mi-35s for the Azerbaijan airforce.

    It would have been a nice problem to win both tenders.
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    Vladimir79

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    Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:54 pm

    Ka-226T vs. Fennec: Russia expecting victory

    February 9, 2012

    The results of the tender to supply the Indian Air Force and Army with 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters are expected to be announced soon. All the test phases have been completed and the examination of bids is at final stage.

    JSC Rosoboronexport is hoping that Russia’s Kamov Ka-226T multi-purpose helicopter will win. Its rival is Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec helicopter.

    A distinct advantage of the Russian bid is its "cumulative" effect: the superior Ka-226T chopper is offered together with an offset program, which is attractive for the Indian side.

    First, under the offset program, Rosoboronexport, with the participation of Russian Helicopters holding’s enterprises, proposes to establish joint production of subsystems and components for the Ka-226T, followed by the assembly of these machines in India.

    Second, the joint development of new Ka-226T versions is offered.

    And, third, this program will enable the two countries – strategic partners – to go to full-scale industrial cooperation on helicopters. Russia’s vast experience in this area and the successful implementation of joint programs in the aircraft field (licensed production of the MiG-21, MiG-27, Su-30MKI fighters in India,) are a good base for realizing the most ambitious goals.

    Thanks to its coaxial rotor system, the Ka-226T has a large reserve thrust and a high climb rate, which increases its hover ceiling. The aerodynamic symmetry and lack of cross coupling in the control channels simplify piloting the helicopter, which is especially important when flying at low altitudes. Such a machine is more maneuverable over the entire range of flight speeds. The Ka-226T is ideal for handling missions in mountainous terrain and at high temperatures.

    Two modern Turbomeca Arrius 2G1 engines having a sufficient capacity, which is critical in the highlands and hot climate areas, provide the flight performance and a high level of survivability of the Ka-226T, in particular. Even with one of its engines damaged or failed, the helicopter will be able to continue flying with one of them.

    Ka-226T showed it excellently during the evaluation trials conducted within the tender earlier in India. These tests clearly demonstrated that the Ka-226T had embodied the best Kamov design school achievements: modularity making the helicopter truly versatile, easy piloting technique, low vibration, high reliability, flight safety and low maintenance.

    http://indrus.in/articles/2012/02/09/ka-226t_vs_fennec_russia_expecting_victory_14781.html



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    Viktor

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    Russian AD network for India

    Post  Viktor on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:47 pm

    Now this is interesting. Russian airdefense network for India being in preparations/negotiations. I could be that if this deal goes by could be huge.
    The more interesting thing is that we have Antej-2500 specs, and those are fearsome. 350km in distance and 37miles (60km) in height. WoW ... huge increase in capability.


    Rosoboroeksport: Russia will help India create air-defense system, missile defense

    Russia will help India in building an effective air defense system, missile defense, the head of the delegation of "Rosoboronexport" at "Defekspo India-2012" Viktor Komardin. Exhibition "Defekspo India-2012" will be held in Delhi from March 29 to April 1, 2012. "Among the topics of bilateral military-technical cooperation, I would like to mention the prospect of creating a reliable Indian air and missile defense, without which it is impossible to talk about the full security State. Especially in these days ", - said V. Komardin. This writes RIA Novosti .
    Therefore, said V. Komardin, Russia is in New Delhi a wide range of systems designed to secure a cover administrative and political centers and infrastructure sites, military bases, development of deposits.

    For example, a complex of defense "Buk-M2E" consisting of one battalion is capable of simultaneously to fire up to 24 targets flying from all directions at a distance of 45 kilometers, according to V. Komardin. Reach is a famous set of "Antey-2500" is 350 kilometers in range and up to 37 miles - in altitude.
    Deployment time from march and training "Antey-2500" to fire no more than 5 minutes. In addition, Russia will present in Delhi and other materials on the world-famous air-defense systems - missile defense ZRPK "Armour-C1 ' , MANPADS "Igla-S" , SAM "Tor-M2E" .
    "Their benefits everyone in the world. In addition, participating in the relevant tender to supply India's air defense systems of small and medium-range, we see the obvious interest of Indian professionals is in the Russian system," - said V. Komardin.
    According to him, the reason is simple: "We offer highly effective, proven tools, manufactured and tested in Russia, not fake or a copy, but the actual fighting system developed and embodied in the life of the great Russian minds. And thus we stand out from competitors

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:01 am

    Good find, I am looking forward to this defence event in India... hope there will be lots of cameras clicking away...

    Regarding the performance of the Antei-2500, it is interesting they mention a range of 350km and 60km altitude for the Antei-2500 because the Antei-2500 is the S-300VM, so what is the performance of the S-300V4?

    The missiles for S-300V series are huge and there are two different models, one with a four tube launcher and one with a twin launcher with much bigger missiles. Both missiles are two stage missiles.

    I guess we will have to wait some time before knowing too many details about these systems, but they are very impressive.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:43 am

    Looking at this article:

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-startling-observation-in-Gen-V-K-Singhs-letter-to-PM/articleshow/12447751.cms

    Army chief's letter to PM: General V K Singh exposes chinks in armour

    NEW DELHI: Army chief General V K Singh paints a grim picture of the operational capabilities of his 1.13-million strong force in his letter to the PM, grappling as it is with tanks running out of ammunition, obsolete air defence systems and lack of adequate weaponry for infantry and special forces battalions.

    Asking the PM to "pass suitable directions to enhance the Army's preparedness", Gen Singh in his March 12 letter says the state of the major fighting arms is "indeed alarming" and indirectly blames the long-winded arms procurement process and the recalcitrant bureaucracy for it.

    The letter points out the Army's tank regiments are "devoid of critical ammunition to defeat enemy tanks", while the existing air defence systems cannot effectively protect against enemy air attacks since they are "97% obsolete".

    Besides, there are "large scale voids" in essential weaponry as well as critical surveillance and night-fighting capabilities in the over 350 infantry and special forces' battalions. With two "inimical neighbours", such "critical deficiencies" severely erode the Army's preparedness, he says.

    There is, however, nothing startling in these observations. As reported earlier, the Army had last year itself declared it would need around Rs 41,000 crore just to make up its existing "critical hollowness" in ammunition and equipment. The force will take several years to reach 100% operational capability.

    Top MoD sources said it was surprising that Gen Singh wrote such a long letter to the PM at a time when the MoD was already undertaking a comprehensive review of Army's operational capabilities, primarily prompted by the Army chief's concerns.

    The first meeting for this review was held on February 28, where defence minister A K Antony, defence secretary Shashi Kant Sharma and Gen Singh were among those present.

    The second meeting was slated for March 21, but was postponed to April 2 because Gen Singh was absent.

    "The Army chief's letter is factually wrong on some counts. It also suggests that an empowered group of officers must be setup to carry out emergency purchases, and private sector participation be stepped up," said a source.

    In its 11th Plan (2007-2012) review, the Army had also pointed at huge operational gaps in fields ranging from artillery, aviation, air defence and night-fighting to ATGMs (anti-tank guided missiles), PGMs (precision guided munitions) and specialized tank and rifle ammunition.

    There has been a general slowdown in several military modernization projects, especially the ones connected to the Army. Navy and IAF, in turn, are better placed on their modernization paths.

    Times View

    So far, the spat between the army chief and the government was embarrassing and perhaps demoralizing the armed forces. But now the leak of a letter written by General V K Singh to the Prime Minister has a far more disturbing dimension to it. Whoever leaked the letter is making public what should be strictly confidential. A service chief raising shortcomings in the country's defence preparedness with the head of the government is one thing. But for this to be put in the public domain and thus expose the shortcomings to one and all, including interests inimical to India, is quite another thing. This unsavoury episode must be brought to a close. And the source of the leak must be detected and action taken.

    I rather suspect the Indian military probably want new tank ammo, a new air defence system and new small arms for its special forces and paramilitary forces.

    I am pretty sure the Indians make their own tank ammo, so with Russia reducing, consolidating and upgrading its ammo production facilities there might be contracts to do the same for India.

    Air Defence for India, given a thorough upgrade and improvement, perhaps with mobility and redundancy built in as well as perhaps a few new missile system types...

    And of course a good look at the AK-12 and ADS by Indian special forces might be in order.

    An AK-12 in 5.56mm and 7.62 x 51mm would probably suit the Indians best, though a few in 7.62 x 39mm might also be popular... I am sure they will appreciate the ease with which scopes and other addons can be fitted.

    Occasionally I hear about modular upgrades for the AK-12 and it is certainly possible that a special model for special forces that has a removable barrel and separate bolt and magazine sets to allow one rifle to fire in different calibres... say 5.45mm, 5.56mm and 7.62 x 39mm and 9 x 39mm, but the iron sights would be a problem as one set of iron sights would not be able to cope with the different calibres.

    Perhaps a scope with a set of ballistic cams for each calibre... but if you want different calibres then different length barrels could also be an option too, which means extra ballistic cams for the scope/sighting system.

    Would not make sense for the average soldier but for the special forces soldier it would mean they just need one weapon instead of 3-4.

    It also means that in the field they can carry different barrel lengths for close in terrain and open country.

    The AK-12 for the Assault rifle calibres is different from the larger frame AK-12 in 762 x 51mm so I doubt they could change from 5.56mm short barrel for use in house to house combat to a long barrel 7.62 x 51mm for firing across valleys and open plains.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:18 pm

    I guess all articles above where just preparations for thing to come. And things to come is
    2 regiments of Tor-M2/Pancir-S1 units or 52 units in total.

    I hope some bigger contract is in planing to. S-300VM would be ideal as Pakistan and China are fielding quite array of MRBM/IRBM along the border.

    Tula KBP hopes for victory in the Indian tender for the supply of 52 air defense short range

    NEW DELHI, March 29. (ARMS-TASS). Tula Instrument Design Bureau (KBP) hopes to win in the Indian tender for the supply of 52 air defense short range. This exhibition opened today at arms' Defekspo-2012, "said ARMS-TASS CBI deputy director general Yuri Khozyainov.
    "The Indian side in December last year has made ​​a request for proposals in the framework of the planned tender for the supply of air defense short range." Rosoboronexport "has decided to submit a tender for this two Russian systems - anti-aircraft missile system" Tor-M2E "( in photo ) The development of Air Defence Concern "Almaz-Antei" and anti-aircraft missile and gun system (ZRPK) "The armor-C1 'PMA design," - said the host.
    According to him, the Indian side in the tender plans to buy air defense systems for the formation of two regiments - a total of 52 units, excluding special machines provide.
    Their hopes of winning APC binds with high competitive performance of their development, as well as positive feedback about the "armor" in the international market - at present this ZRPK sold in three countries - the United Arab Emirates, Syria and Algeria.
    In recent years, military-technical cooperation with India in the CBI was based mainly on the supply of grenade launchers AGS-30. "About a thousand of such products already is in service with Indian security forces and the current year contract provides for the transfer to the customer for about a hundred AGS-30", - noted in the PCU.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:21 pm

    When you say 97% of AD is obsolete... you are talking more than just missiles and guns, you are talking communications and sensors like radars etc.

    They might buy a few missile systems, but I suspect what they are after is an IAD system with radar coverage and communications centres plus the cooperation of Air Force interceptors and SAM sites to protect strategic locations.

    We are talking trillions of dollars, and hundreds of thousands of kms of fibre optic cable and hundreds if not thousands of radar and other bits of hardware...
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    Viktor

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am

    Well here is another one. I had no idea India has tender for MANPAD but here goes.



    03/30/12 KOLOMNA MACHINE BUILDING BUREAU EXPECTS TO MANPADS "IGLA-S" TO WIN THE TENDER TO SUPPLY INDIA'S MAN-PORTABLE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS
    March 30 2012 .
    ITAR-TASS reported. FSUE "Kolomna Engineering Office" / MSC / expects to win a tender to supply India's man-portable air defense systems. This ARMS-TASS in the exhibition "Defekspo-2012," the chief of the scientific and technical direction of the MSC - the chief designer Alexander Smirnov.
    "Right now, India announced a tender for the supply of man-portable air defense systems / MANPADS / designed for replacement of obsolete MANPADS" Igla "," Igla-1 "," Strela-2M "Indian Army. We are engaged in it with a MANPADS" Igla-S . "We are preparing for the test set," - said Smirnov. Home tests are expected in May, they can last until the end of the year, and include, in particular, firing, evaluating maintainability, electromagnetic compatibility testing of the system.
    It is estimated that India will buy thousands of MANPADS today with regard to their future licensed production in the country.
    "We take this very seriously, very big deal," - said the representative of MSC. Hopes for the success of the company relates to the fact that India has a huge number of vehicles operated by the development of the MSC. "It has the infrastructure, training, control systems, educational facilities, a certain order," - all play an important role in the evaluation of bidders. Russian competitors in the Indian competition are Sweden, the French company MBDA, South Korea.
    The exhibition "Defekspo 2012" MSC shows samples of weapons, which will take part in the Indian competition. In particular, it is very complex "Igla-S", a simulator for operator training, support-launcher "horseman" with a system of target designation and night sights, night vision scope, "Mowgli" for MANPADS.
    http://www.arms-tass.su/
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    Viktor

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:33 pm

    Huge scandal broke out in India about corruption in highest ranks. Russia believes it will help them increase weapons sales to India in the first place air defense systems.

    03/04/12 MEDIA: A HUGE SCANDAL IN INDIA WILL HELP RUSSIAN WEAPONS TO BREAK INTO THE MOST PROMISING MARKET IN THE WORLD
    April 3 2012 .


    newsru.com. In India, a huge corruption scandal broke out, which were involved Defense Minister Arakkaparambil Kurian Antony and Chief of Joint Staff of the Army (in Russian terminology - the commander in chief), Vijay Kumar Singh (pictured). Against this background, in New Delhi last week hosted a major international exhibition of arms Defexpo-2012, one of the main participants of which was Russia. For her, India's scandal could turn into a windfall: Military experts anticipate that the production of the Russian defense industry will rush to the Indian market - one of the most promising in the world, says "Kommersant" .

    Curiously, the scandal, though in the Indian specific, but still unprecedented in the modern history of this country, involved in one of the leading Russian manufacturers - "Kamaz", however, is very involved indirectly, informs , "Rossiyskaya Gazeta" . It outlines the essence.

    Commander Singh allegedly received a proposal for a large bribe to buy and put into service a large batch of the Indian army Czech heavy truck Tatra, or rather platforms that can host and multiple launch rocket systems, and repair shops, and used for its intended purpose - to transport cargo and personnel composition.

    General Singh is on his version, was outraged, and all reported to the Minister of Defence. He appointed a check, then the scandal surfaced. In Mumbai, a newspaper printed in Daily News & Analysis at once appeared a copy of Singh's secret letter which he sent to the country's Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. It is actually the ground forces commander reported incapacity of the national army.

    As stated in a letter to the general, most of the armor units are experiencing a severe shortage in equipment, air defense of the country does not meet modern requirements, the infantry deprived of the opportunity to operate effectively at night and even the special forces are not equipped as expected, retell "News" .

    Vijay Kumar Singh has called the publication of his confidential correspondence with the prime minister, "a cynical attempt to ruin his reputation" and said that the disclosure of information equivalent to the inviolable treason. He urged "to find the source of leakage and ruthlessly deal with them." The scandal immediately transferred to the political level - representatives of the ruling coalition in parliament demanded the immediate resignation of the general, but in his defense faced opposition.

    Journalists as a threat to "the ruthless dismantling of" not frightened - indeed, they have been actively carried out its own investigation. It turned out interesting. It turns out that a corrupt bargain Corporation Tatra generally has nothing to do. Everything started some very murky intermediaries, which in the Indian market a lot of weapons, said, "RG".

    In an elaborate scheme to transfer money, get public order and delivery vehicles have involved, as reported, a kind of subsidiary company "KamAZ". Although a careful reading the published papers is that the Russian automaker essentially as innocent.

    Whatever it was, the revelation of the commander ill-equipped Indian army and the use of corrupt practices in the procurement of weapons hit the target. After his interview with Defense Minister said, his agency has declared war on corruption in defense contracts, making the blacklist two Indian and four foreign companies, which would be prohibited from working in the Indian market for ten years, according to "Kommersant".

    According to military experts interviewed by the newspaper, the scandal could shake up the Indian arms market and become a real blessing for the Russian defense manufacturers. "Indians are still not interested in Russian air defense systems, next generation, such as C-300 and" Buk ", while the rest of the world is behind them in line," - said the director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Ruslan Pukhov. Now the situation may change.

    Deputy General Director of "Rosoboronexport" Victor Komardin after Defexpo-2012 announced Russia would annually supply of arms to India amounting to three billion dollars.

    Scandalous commander wanted to produce their weapons. The experts he "exposed"

    On the other hand, the same Vijay Kumar Singh, said last week that the dependence of India on foreign companies supplied weapons and equipment should be reduced, according to ITAR-TASS reported. Speaking at a meeting of the Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry of the country, the commander in chief said that 70% of the exported equipment.

    "We have to rely on their own strength," - said the general, emphasizing the need for closer cooperation between industry and the national army "for the long-term investment."

    According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India in 2007-2011 was the largest importer of weapons in the world, ahead of South Korea, China and Pakistan. India's share of all deliveries - 10%, 6% of imported Seoul, Beijing and Islamabad - 5%.

    India's defense expenditure in the coming fiscal year (from April 2012 to March 31, 2013) will exceed 38.5 billion dollars, the agency said. In total, over the next ten years, the country is going to spend on defense purchases of $ 100 billion.

    Regarding the call Vijay Kumar Singh of India to reduce dependence on exports of arms, the media are in no hurry to make definite conclusions. They point out that this man is a controversial figure in New Delhi and even unpredictable. In particular, it is suspected that, complaining to the incapacity of the Army, he wanted to turn himself in favor of another recent scandal.

    The fact that on May 31 Vijay Kumar Singh must leave his post in connection with reaching the age limit. Retirement, he hoped to avoid a rather strange way - tried to prove in court that he was born a year later than indicated in its documents, including passports. However, the Supreme Court case was lost, and then the commander has decided to counter-attack.

    Singh, in any case is not going to retire quietly. If he does not maintain his position, at least out loud slams the door, say Indian experts.
    http://www.newsru.com
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:52 am

    I am biased of course, but I really like that Ka-225T.

    It is like a thunderbird with its ability to carry different payload cabins.

    And of course with the coaxial rotor system it is all lift.

    In a conventional helo at low altitude or on the deck or landing pad a change in wind direction means you need to turn the helo into the wind the remain in place... on a conventional helo that means swinging the tail with those nasty dangerous tail rotors around the place which can be very lethal on a ship and also very dangerous on the ground too.

    Austin

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:16 pm

    Seems like Russia has string of bad luck with Indian military competition these days first it was MMRCA then Mi-28N Loss and now Mi-26 looses to Chinook

    Boeing's Chinook Wins Indian Heavy Copter Fight


    I am not sure of Ka-226 would win the LOH deal it could be Fennec , seems like political decision in India to keep Russians out and share the deal with US since US took the MMRCA loss more personally.

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:21 pm



    Austin wrote:Seems like Russia has string of bad luck with Indian military competition these days first it was MMRCA then Mi-28N Loss and now Mi-26 looses to Chinook

    Boeing's Chinook Wins Indian Heavy Copter Fight


    I am not sure of Ka-226 would win the LOH deal it could be Fennec , seems like political decision in India to keep Russians out and share the deal with US since US took the MMRCA loss more personally.



    While i share the selection by part of India of AH-63D Block 3 over Mi-28NE on the basis that Mi-28NE is still a not "mature" product with some sub-systems and lines of productions still not established i find this one a titanic mistake.

    The reasons -which i had pointed out already some months ago- is that the technical requirements for the tender has been put, by Indian DoD, within some "controlled" thresholds to allow CH-47F to participate (so to prevent Mi-26T2 to win in absence of competition, dictating so ,effectively, the final economic and temporal terms of the tender).

    Naturally those requirements have created this absurd situation ,where both CH-47F and Mi-26T2 has been found compliant with those technical qualifications .
    Naturally at this point the selection was doomed in favour of CH-47F because obviously ,within those limits, it would have resulted the lowest bidder ; at this point effectively Indian tender's Committee had both hands tied by the same terms established by the tender.


    The problem leading to this enormous mistake for Indian Armed Forces is to fail to formally declare that Mi-26T2 sit in a category completely of its own, the other option possible would have been to force any eventual competitor in the tender to offer a product with the same volumetric and payload capabilities of Mi-26T2 .

    15 Mi-26T2 and 15 Ch-47F offer COMPLETELY DIFFERENT tactical/substrategic airlift and transportation capabilities !!
    In no way in this universe it could ever be the same and ,therefore, the decision to establish lower bidder on those premises result simply destitute of any rational grounding.


    The fault for this mess cannot even be given strictly to the Selecting Committee, in facts by allowing CH-47F to pass the technical trials on the basis of parametrical requirements designed "ad hoc" to let it to participate, Indian DoD has not only damaged in perspective its Armed Forces and Indian taxpayers( offering to them by far the less "bang for the bucks"), but also the good name it had gained with MMRCA tender.

    A very bad story here.....



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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:36 pm

    True the capbilities offered by Mi-26T2 and CH-47 are quite different and they shouldnt have competed or it should have been single vendor deal

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:18 pm



    I understand that a single vendor deal could have resulted difficult to explain politically to Indian tax-payers , so another option would have been to calculate at least (how should have been included from the beginning in the technical requirements and in the final account for the lower bidder) the higher payload's weight and volume available among the participants for 15 helicopters and compute the number of other competitors ....and the associated fuel, maintenace, manning and spare parts requirements and costs....in need for obtain the same result (and even this method wouldn't have given justice to the military equipments, and therefore the tactical options opened for the operatives on the battlefield, that simply cannot be transported in other helicopters).

    If you instead, limit the tender at requiring,for example, the lift of 14 tons of eqipment and operatives at a particular range ,only to allow both to participate, the obvious result is that both will surpass this technical requirements but the 15 lighter helicopters will result forcibly the less costly to acquire/operate.


    It is truly a bad page in International Arms tenders which,i hope will be in future examined at cold, to avoid to ever repeat similar big mistakes (i repeat ,at the beginning ,even motivated by a good goal : avoid to declare an open tender without effective competitions, effectively offering to a single producer the freedom to dictate the terms of the same).




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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:47 pm

    Bad Choice indeed . But two things need to be stated here . First , commercial negotiations will start now . So if Boeing is unable to ensure ToT as per RFP and offer a competitive price the deal might fall off . Second , it shows the extent to which corruption has seeped into all aspects of Govt in India. The ability of foreign Governments to leverage the Non Resident Indians residing in the West alon gwith the arms lobby present in New Delhi

    Case in point , Augusta Westland's ability to rig the deal to supply VVIP helos to India that came into light last week.

    Boeing flew at least 10 Indian journalists to the US to take a look at their facilities and publicize Boeing's Hardware in India . All this is to a certain extent paying off .


    Apart from that the Admiral Gorshkov saga is being used by a host of defense contractors to state that Russia is not a credible supplier and Russian weapons are sub standard . They spend millions to insert these stories very tactfully into the press.

    Boeing's employees in New Delhi are some of the most nastiest individuals that I have ever come across.But then it is an open secret that whosoever controls the arms lobby in India controls the arms market.





    Last edited by Sujoy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:09 pm

    cn some1 tell me teh diff between both plz .. i have to say i am happy indian gov choose chinook . and sujoy i dont think india gov would go for 100% tot on chinooks

    ricky123

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:10 pm

    cn some1 tell me teh diff between both plz .. i have to say i am happy indian gov choose chinook . and sujoy i dont think india gov would go for 100% tot on chinooks
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:31 pm

    ricky123 wrote: cn some1 tell me teh diff between both plz .. i have to say i am happy indian gov choose chinook .

    Here check these links for the MI 46 and Chinook

    http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-46.php

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/chinook.cfm

    I remember the presentation that Boeing had made to the Indian MoD for the Chinook . Comparing it to the Mi 26 and showcasing how advanced the Chinook was compared to the MI 26 . Fact is it was the MI 46 that Oboronprom JSC had offered ( and not the MI 26 ) . Also , I do not understand how Chinooks will operate in HIgh altitudes . There is this issue of poor visibility caused by the downwash from the twin main rotors of the CH-47/HH-47 when operating over mountainous terrain. This problem is being frequently encountered in Afghanistan during bad weather conditions.

    ricky123 wrote:and sujoy i dont think india gov would go for 100% tot on chinooks

    Not 100 % ToT . Only ToT to the extent reflected in the RFP.

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