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    Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:06 am

    Russia doesn't need Indian business now like it did in the 1990s.

    It wants its business because India is a friend and a good customer, and it certainly is a lot healthier than it would otherwise have been without India.

    India has something like 50-70% Russian/Soviet stuff in service, and supporting that large amount of equipment generates a lot of revenue for Russia today which is critical for Russia.

    Losing a few bids is normal... just looking at the ratio of products suggests that 25% of the time they lose a bid.

    Personally I think India has always bought from different vendors, so there is nothing new here.


    To be honest I would say that a lot of US purchases have probably come more at the expense of Europe than of Russia... these competitions, if the Russian equivalents were not in production they would likely have bought French... now they seem to be buying French and American.


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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:00 pm



    Everything said by far the BIGGEST reason why Russia continues to loose deals in India is because the supply has been found to be un-reliable and erratic .


    I agree totally on this hypothesis.
    The problem with spares with legacy weapons ,in particular, come from an important element that often is disregarded in discussions on this subject : Russia since beginning of 2000 year had planned ,in the middle time, one of the biggest modernization plan ,worldwide, of all branch of its Armed Forces (procurements and modernization of equipment was effectively frozen in Eltsin's years....but not R&D for perspective products); in particular, lines of production of spare parts for equipment still in service bound to be replaced by new models was established to be progressively compressed to free resources and industrial bases for theirs substitution with lines of the new models.
    The best short term solution for international buyers of products which will be replaced by new generation models in Russian Armed Forces, is partial localization of spare parts' production lines, this will not only prevent a sharp tumble of operational readiness of systems lacking spare parts ,but also enormously reduce life cost operations and create work and industrial "know-how" for Indian specialized personnel.



    The A 330 is a tanker that has optimum fuel capacity and still does not interfere with the space in the main cargo deck -- which means the A330 can refuel, deliver men and equipment in a single compound sortie, giving logistical planners a huge amount of operational planning flexibility

    And those appear to you to be a good compromises for a tanker aircraft designed for high-intensity conflict Sujoy ?
    Sometimes i believe that the mindset generated by the typical "conflicts" that USA and NATO have attentively choiced to fought in the last 20 years -local ones, against insulated third world opponents uncapable to defend themselves in any way, after some years of embargo and attacked by whole NATO Coalition...- with the resulting completely warped doctrinal inferences about single systems's requirements and CONOPS up to strategic and tactical principles, have penetrated so deeply in some foreign military environments to corrupt completely theirs capabilities to analyse witjh objectivity theirs strategic environment and system requirements for theirs needs.

    India must be prepared to fight a conflict against a world level power, with military capabilities literally hundreds of times greater than the most serious "opponent" of NATO since WWII at today.


    A conflict like the often cited (in particular in western military environments) Gulf War ,with all its operative solutions and system CONPS, would result simply COMICAL when applied to South East Asian actors : 10 minutes ,literally, and all the dock points ,C4 bases and airfields lend to NATO by Saudi Arabia with all theirs content ( transported here after a very slow sea and air lifting transition long over seven months !!) would have been reduced to an amass of smoking cement and metal rubbles ,even before the basis logistical rooting in the theatre would have been established.

    This apparent digression was necessary to highlight that several western designed weapon systems have at theirs root the doctrinal assumption that the conflicts that they will fight will be local and against immensely inferior opponents (because those against moderately strong enemies would be prevented by NATO sheer size and those against even stronger ones by...nuclear element); A-330, like its American corresponding, show in its root-design's ideas, just those assumptions.


    The First requirement for a tanker designed for high intensity conflicts is to be capable to remain operative also after airbases has been extensively damaged : Il-78-MKI has been purposely designed to have a take-off run of only 850 meters and from very rough runways (it can takeoff without problems also from majority of smaller civilian airfields Wink ), A-330 MRTT has a takeoff run of more than double this distance from a perfectly smooth runway !!

    Sujoy the probability to be capable to takeoff from damaged runways and times required to even the best equipped engineering squads to clear for takeoff an aircraft from an attacked airfield follow about the square function of the minimum takeoff distance required by this aircraft .

    That means that if an aircraft with a 900 me. takeoff run could be capable to operate ,let put, after 18 hours ,one with 1700 m. could require even five or six days before get a chance to takeoff and give its contribution in deciding the destiny of the conflict ; this without taking into account rough runways capabilities and possibilities to use smaller civilian runways.

    Now THOSE are truly DECIDING capabilities for conflicts against powerful opponents armed with several thousands of stand-off cruise missiles and ,even more, ballistic missiles with specialized payloads .



    Last edited by Mindstorm on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:27 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:The best short term solution for international buyers of products which will be replaced by new generation models in Russian Armed Forces, is partial localization of spare parts' production lines, this will not only prevent a sharp tumble of operational readiness of systems lacking spare parts ,but also enormously reduce life cost operations and create work and industrial "know-how" for Indian specialized personnel.
    This is a good solution but is the Kremlin listening ? The quantum of weapons of Russian origin (both in terms of numbers & financial figures) still continues to be quite large & will remain so for the next 50 years. Procuring weapons of US / EU origin in future like AH-64Ds & CH-47Fs will not change this reality . That said , Russia cannot rest on it’s legacy .

    I have been crying hoarse for the last 2 years trying to impress upon this point on Rosoboronexport that why can’t Russian OEMs set up plants in India ? Of late they are setting up a plant for the Smerch MLRS . But that’s simply not enough . Case in point Rosoboronexport has tied up with OFB ( Ordinance Factory Board ) to compete in the Light Armoured Vehicle competition . While their competitors like Mahindra & Mahindra ( M&M) + BAE are pulling out all the stops to win this deal Rosoboronexport is hardly making ANY effort .

    I did ask an official in the Indian MoD if Rosoboronexport has met the Defense ministry , Finance ministry or the Army HQ ? “No” , not yet , I was told . It seems that they have developed a smug of sorts and this leads to their undoing . This is where the US is so good . They kept on loosing many deals not because they did not have good hardwares but they were seen with suspicion . Yet they kept on fighting . They adopted a few dubious means as well in the process but nonetheless one needs to give credit where it is deserved.

    I will REPEAT what I stated earlier . India-Russia military-technical cooperation is not across-the-board & is isolated to a few select areas only. This glaring loophole HAS TO BE PLUGGED .

    Mindstorm wrote:India must be prepared to fight a conflict against a world level power, with military capabilities literally hundreds of times greater than the most serious "opponent" of NATO since WWII at today.
    Mindstorm , we have decided that the best way to prepare for such a scenario is to fight among ourselves . If Pakistan attacks , they will kill all of us , coz they hate us so much ,so we will be 6ft under even before we realize it. The Chinese are more decent people so they will give us some time to escape . I may then apply for a political asylum in Russia and may need your help to settle down in Siberia , preferably Irkutsk russia . So not to worry Mindstorm , we are in the good hands of our shady ministers and useless saviours.

    Mindstorm wrote: Sujoy the probability to be capable to takeoff from damaged runways and times required to even the best equipped engineering squads to clear for takeoff an aircraft from an attacked airfield follow about the square function of the minimum takeoff distance required by this aircraft .

    The IL 78 was NOT knocked off due to technical reasons . It was Boeing that was . It’s only when one satisfies the technical requirements that they are allowed to bid as L1 competitors . Such deals cannot be fudged because the results of the competitive evaluations are made fully known to both the winner & losers, with the loser having the right to legally contest the conclusions, but being barred from making follow-on counter-offers, this being the prevailing international norm. It will be interesting to see if Russia decides to contest .



    Last edited by Sujoy on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:33 pm; edited 5 times in total
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:53 pm

    Austin wrote:Total loss lets get a rough estimate

    MMRCA ===> $20 billion
    P-8I ===> $ 2 billion
    Attack Helicopter ===> $1 billion
    Heavy Helicopter =====> $ 1 billion
    Refuellers ========> $ 1 -2 billion


    So total estimated lost is $ 25 billion

    You forgot C-17 and C-130s. Total loss is more like $32 billion.


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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:53 pm


    The IL 78 was NOT knocked off due to technical reasons. It was Boeing that was. It’s only when one satisfies the technical requirements that they are allowed to bid as L1 competitors .



    I know that Sujoy.
    What was pointing out is, instead, that someone (in particular refer to some mercenary journalists literally on the pay-check of some US Companies...) attempt to justify some of the most "strange" selections by part of India of not-Russian products bringing out "technical" reasons simply laughable.



    ....with the loser having the right to legally contest the conclusions, but being barred from making follow-on counter-offers, this being the prevailing international norm. It will be interesting to see if Russia decides to contest.

    Is never a good idea to nettle an historical ally with which you maintain very strong military and scientific links and carry on even crucial joint programs contesting its decision in procurement tender.

    But I think that a clear ,but "indirect", approach would be very useful to render the work of some corrupt functionaries and officials much, much more difficult to complete without going under strong pressure by part of honest media and ,even more, Public Opinion.

    Rosoboronexport' s functionaries should go to a press/TV conference in India, but instead to present new products or programs them should say :

    "Good day to anybody; today we are here in a special capacity : none of us will speak of our products ,proposals or future programs ,instead we have chosen to talk of investment's opportunities...not...not on our products or federated Companies...but zero-risks investments, here in India and aboard, for lucky Indian people.
    Those are over 30 possible investment's options of various kind - from industrial plants, to precious metal exchange, to blocked accounts around the globe etc...etc...- with the related cumulative profit's edges for a 20 years time span for an amount of let put......4000 Crore.
    Give to it a look, with the best regards by part of the whole Roboronexport's staff for all the lucky owners of a similar amount of money"


    From this point onward would become very difficult for any dishonest people, operating in theirs own interest instead of that of theirs Nation in procurement tenders, attempt to deceive Indian Public Opinion and open media with supposed figures for operating life cycle costs only to justify gold-plated products (moreover,very often, totally unsuitable for high intensity conflicts) and obviously....theirs pay-check.
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:05 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    "Good day to anybody; today we are here in a special capacity : none of us will speak of our products ,proposals or future programs ,instead we have chosen to talk of investment's opportunities...not...not on our products or federated Companies...but zero-risks investments, here in India and aboard, for lucky Indian people.
    Those are over 30 possible investment's options of various kind - from industrial plants, to precious metal exchange, to blocked accounts around the globe etc...etc...- with the related cumulative profit's edges for a 20 years time span for an amount of let put......4000 Crore.
    Give to it a look, with the best regards by part of the whole Roboronexport's staff for all the lucky owners of a similar amount of money"

    That's a grand idea Mindstorm . Take a look at this link :

    http://rbth.ru/articles/2012/10/09/russia_india_implementing_over_100_military_projects_-_rosoboronexpo_18940.html

    However , so far I remain pessimistic about Rosoboronexport's India strategy. Not sure if they will follow the strategy that you have outlined.

    Also , I think the Russian Govt. should allow private Russian companies to open businesses in India . As of now they have to enter the Indian market via Rosoboronexport . A number of them are unwilling to do so. They want to enter India directly . This move should be encouraged . As they will need an Indian partner to start their business. The more they come the better it is because the more Indian companies get involved with their Russian companies the greater the leverage they will have with the Govt.

    Russia should stress that their products are high end . A common notion doing the rounds in India (thanks to some lateral thinking on part of foreign contractors ) is Russian hardware is low tech . They try to influence public opinion with these embedded news .

    Russia should also highlight the fact that it is spending far more on Military related R & D in the near future which will only lead to the development of high tech hardware . SOmething that no European country can match as they are curtailing their defense expenditure.

    I will give you two examples of marketing tactics employed by some foreign companies. The first example is something very blatant and the second example a lot more subtle :

    Example 1 - It has been reported in a few Indian magazines , blogs etc that the F 35's DAS suite + radar cannot be fooled by any countermeasure .

    Example 2 - During AeroIndia 2011 Pakistan test fired a cruise missile exactly a day before a cruise missile countermeasure was demonstrated by Raytheon in AeroIndia .
    http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%253A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%253A8c6b752a-7f46-434d-ae84-8f8063cc0c51&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

    The cruise missile launch was hastily arranged & India was informed at the 11th hour.Now tell me Mindstorm , that this was just a coincidence.

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:56 pm



    Russia should stress that their products are high end. A common notion doing the rounds in India (thanks to some lateral thinking on part of foreign contractors) is Russian hardware is low tech.


    Russia ,in almost all crucial strategic technologies segments for actual and perspective weaponry (ballistic missile technology, strategic ground and space based radars, perspective propulsion systems, coherent beams DE emitters, nuclear based engines and batteries ,etc..etc..etc..), is scientifically very largely ahead of any other nation at world ,none excluded.

    Try to ask anyone at ISRO's VSSC -Vikram Sarabhai Space Center- , Hyderabad Center or Bangalore's R&D center if them would exchange 3 years of collaboration with leading Russian Institutes with 10 years of collaboration with that of any other country worldwide...and hear theirs responses.

    Observe the arsenals of any nation, not only of Asian sub-continent...but worldwide and see if you can find something even only by far in the same class of BrahMos universal cruise missile ( and ,within a brief time span , Hypersonic BrahMos 2 ).
    Now THAT is a game-changing military element capable to very quickly turn the equilibrium of any conflict in Indian favour and try to image if a similar realization would be possible through collaboration with any other nation at world.


    Western nations have mounted ,in the past decades a monumental,PR campaign of discredit of any Russian-made products (in reality of anything Russian-related ,with the strong aid of US funded NGO, think-tank Institutes ,journals and TV stations often operating in the same nations to be "attacked", so to add credibility to theirs deceiving "analysis" and opinions within the local Public Opinion); in particular in the military department of this disrepute's campaign, attempt to "sell" the results achieved in local conflicts ,after years of embargos ,conducted in coalition -enjoying crushing numerical/qualitative overmatch- over immensely inferior ,insulated countries armed with few, downgraded export model of Soviet weapon systems moreover 25-30 years old for Soviet standard of the times Laughing Laughing, as great victories of western weapon systems and concept of operation over Russian ones Laughing Laughing Laughing

    If any, those comical, self-embarrassing allegations speak volumes ,for anyone with knowledge in those subjects, not only on theirs intellectual honesty but also on how-much them ,in reality, are afraid of modern Russian weaponry and at what abysmal level them are capable to come only to prevent theirs proliferation worldwide.


    Sujoy ,talking of honesty , if i would be an Indian advisor i would secretly and urgently contact Kaspersky Lab and task one of its team (to be introduced in the nation and in the interested installations under total cover) to control software installed in the latest US acquisitions.....


    http://livefist.blogspot.it/2009/09/exclusive-devil-in-details-bogey-in-p.html


    Those type of back-up malware ,for majority of instances, are not used ,as commonly imagined, to disable the related hardware in the middle of a conflict (also if some ,above all in obsolete the command and control nodes can obtain a similar results) ,but to obtain intelligence and accurate data that can be collected by end-user US inspectors....
    When detected and analyzed those ,must not be removed, but used, instead, to provide totally warped and wronged data to your unfaithful "friend".

    With all the deals that India ,lately, has given to US Companies it should be a must for Indian national security.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Russia ,in almost all crucial strategic technologies segments for actual and perspective weaponry (ballistic missile technology, strategic ground and space based radars, perspective propulsion systems, coherent beams DE emitters, nuclear based engines and batteries ,etc..etc..etc..), is scientifically very largely ahead of any other nation at world ,none excluded.

    Precisely . But why is Russia not saying this in India ? Don't tell me Russians have become as short sighted as we are .

    Mindstorm wrote:Western nations have mounted ,in the past decades a monumental,PR campaign of discredit of any Russian-made products (in reality of anything Russian-related ,with the strong aid of US funded NGO, think-tank Institutes ,journals and TV stations often operating in the same nations to be "attacked", so to add credibility to theirs deceiving "analysis" and opinions within the local Public Opinion); in particular in the military department of this disrepute's campaign, attempt to "sell" the results achieved in local conflicts ,after years of embargos ,conducted in coalition -enjoying crushing numerical/qualitative overmatch- over immensely inferior ,insulated countries armed with few, downgraded export model of Soviet weapon systems moreover 25-30 years old for Soviet standard of the times Laughing Laughing, as great victories of western weapon systems and concept of operation over Russian ones Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Unfortunately , such false propaganda are increasingly finding currency in India in the absence of a Russian re-buttal . As Lenin once said - " A lie repeated often becomes the truth "


    Mindstorm wrote:Sujoy ,talking of honesty , if i would be an Indian advisor i would secretly and urgently contact Kaspersky Lab and task one of its team (to be introduced in the nation and in the interested installations under total cover) to control software installed in the latest US acquisitions.....

    Kaspersky has an office in Pune ( near Mumbai) so obviously they can be contacted . But such lateral thinking cannot be expected from our short sighted /corrupt politicians.


    Mindstorm wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.it/2009/09/exclusive-devil-in-details-bogey-in-p.html


    Those type of back-up malware ,for majority of instances, are not used ,as commonly imagined, to disable the related hardware in the middle of a conflict (also if some ,above all in obsolete the command and control nodes can obtain a similar results) ,but to obtain intelligence and accurate data that can be collected by end-user US inspectors....

    Yes , you see these news need to be made public . I am not saying they are not . But it reaches out only to a few people because of lack of publicity . BTW - This particular blogger / reporter is one of the few journalists who are used by Boeing , LM , Raytheon to write on their behalf.

    http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/07/apache-little-bird-tour-tomorrow.html
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:09 pm

    Nice propositions but I don't think the political relationship between Russia and India will get to that level. India has more or less signed up to the American strategy in Asia (which has it's price) and Russia is primarily focused on Europe economically. I think the Russo-Indian relationship will still be fairly close and deeper than just a normal cordial bilateral relationship but it won't be at the levels it was during the cold war.

    As far as Asia goes, the Russian position is to have good relationships with all countries but try to act as "balancer" and try to prevent the rise of a single overwhelming hegemon in the region.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:52 am

    And now we lost the heavy lift helicopter competition to the Chinook... the Chinook!


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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:18 pm

    NEW DELHI — India’s $1 billion tender to buy 197 light utility helicopters (LUHs) could be canceled for the second time in five years, while Italy’s AgustaWestland may face blacklisting in India if allegations about use of a middleman in the competition are confirmed, according to Indian Defence Ministry officials.

    The ministry has delayed making a selection in the competition between Russia’s Kamov and Eurocopter following reports that Italian investigators were probing a 2009 award by the Indian Air Force to Finmeccanica subsidiary AgustaWestland for 12 very very important person (VVIP) helicopters. In the course of this investigation, evidence may have been uncovered that an Indian Air Force brigadier general had sought money from AgustaWestland to revise the technical requirements for the LUH competition.The Defence Acquisition Council, India’s top procurement body and under the chairmanship of the defense minister, deliberated on the LUH tender at its meetings the week ending Oct. 27, though no details are known.

    According to media reports here, documents filed in an Italian court said an Indian Army officer sought money to revise the LUH tender, issued in 2009, to favor AgustaWestland during the initial stages of its evaluation in 2010. The Italian company was dropped for not meeting technical requirements and did not make it to the flight trial stage.

    Kamov’s Ka-226T is pitted against Eurocopter AS 550 C3 Fennec.

    Calls to AgustaWestland offices were not answered. But the company issued a statement Nov. 1, which it said was in response to Indian press reports on the helicopter sales, that it never tried to “influence the selection or evaluation process” during the VVIP helicopter bid. The company said its relations with the Indian authorities were strictly “institutional.”

    The Indian Defence Ministry, through the Foreign Ministry, has asked the Italian authorities to make available to it documents relating to the probe into Finmeccanica. The documents include the name of a serving Indian officer relating to the LUH tender.

    “The Ministry of Defence has asked the Italian government and concerned agencies there through MEA [Ministry of External Affairs] to provide the name and relevant documents relating to the alleged involvement of a brigadier in the ongoing process for the acquisition of 197 light utility helicopters for the Indian Army,” the official Defence Ministry release said.

    AgustaWestland could be blacklisted by the Indian government if it is found that the Italian company had used a middleman in the defense deals. According to Indian defense procurement law, overseas companies have to sign a statement that there are no middlemen or agents in the program.

    “MoD will take strong action against the offenders detected through this probe,” the official release said.

    New Delhi has also asked Italy to provide details of the probe it is carrying out into the sale of 12 VVIP helicopters by AgustaWestland after Sikorsky was ejected in the race.

    The probe into the India helicopter deal stems from claims of corruption made by Lorenzo Borgogni, a former external relations manager at Finmeccanica who was fired in 2011 after Giuseppe Orsi became CEO and chairman of the company. Borgogni admitted receiving payments worth 5.6 million euros ($7.2 million) from Finmeccanica supplier firms, which was deemed a violation of company ethics.


    The Americans are also locked in competition for the Indian Navy’s multirole helicopter program, in which NH90 helicopters of NHIndustries are competing with Sikorsky’s S-70B.

    Sources said the commercial bids for 16 helicopters are expected to be opened by the end of the year. The Indian Navy has also decided to float another global tender worth more than $4 billion to purchase an additional 75 multirole helicopters.

    The multirole helicopters will be needed to replace the aging Sea King helicopters from the 1980s, the majority of which are grounded due to old age and shortage of spares.

    The helicopters will be used in limited intelligence gathering, search and rescue, casualty evacuation and surveillance roles
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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:14 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:And now we lost the heavy lift helicopter competition to the Chinook... the Chinook!

    The heavy lift and attack helo orders are small and insignificant as far as Rostvertol is concerned.

    No magic will make the Mi-26 cheaper than Chinook. Also, no magic will make the Chinook half as good a lift helo as the Mi-26.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:41 am

    With regard to the Chinook deal if we assume it wasn't a political thing, I would suggest it was a case of wanting a station wagon rather than a van.


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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:33 pm

    Is there any weapons contest that Russia has not lost in a the last 2 years?
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:07 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there any weapons contest that Russia has not lost in a the last 2 years?

    Given that Russia is the number 2 biggest exporter of arms, that's a safe yes.


    If anything it is a testament to how much Russia produces in every military field (for such a limited economy) that it can compete and meet technical specifications in pretty much every tender.
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:30 pm

    TR1 wrote:Given that Russia is the number 2 biggest exporter of arms, that's a safe yes.

    Also , very few arms deals are decided based on a competition . Saudi Arabia ordered $42 billion worth of military hardware from the US last year , however there was no competition . The largest buyers of military hardwares remain the Middle East countries and they never take the competition route .

    Moreover loosing a competition does not mean that the looser's product was bad . It just means that the buyer's requirements were different or the buyer wants to go for the less expensive product as was the case in this deal in India where the lowest bidder was chosen after the technical rounds.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:30 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Given that Russia is the number 2 biggest exporter of arms, that's a safe yes.

    Also , very few arms deals are decided based on a competition . Saudi Arabia ordered $42 billion worth of military hardware from the US last year , however there was no competition . The largest buyers of military hardwares remain the Middle East countries and they never take the competition route .

    Moreover loosing a competition does not mean that the looser's product was bad . It just means that the buyer's requirements were different or the buyer wants to go for the less expensive product as was the case in this deal in India where the lowest bidder was chosen after the technical rounds.

    x2, well said.

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    indian Navy plans to issue bid for over 120 multirole choppers

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:26 pm

    In could be the world’s biggest tender for helicopters, the Indian Navy is planning to issue a bid for procuring more than 120 multirole choppers expected to be worth around Rs 35,000 crore.

    The navy had recently issued a global request for information in this regard and has plans of acquiring more than 120 Naval Multirole Helicopters (NMRH), navy sources said here.

    The navy had recently asked global helicopter vendors to provide details about their choppers in this category and is planning to issue a global request for proposal in this regard in near future, they said.

    The navy is planning to procure these new NMRH for carrying out anti-submarine warfare, special forces’ operations and anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare.

    The companies expected to take part in the tender include all major chopper manufacturers like European Eurocopter and Agusta Westland and American Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin.

    “We are planning to offer our EC725 helicopter once the Indian Navy issues a tender for these NMRH,” Eurocopter’s Vice President for South Asia region Rainner Farid said here.

    The Indian Navy is already holding a competition for procuring 16 multirole helicopters in which European NH-90 and American Sikorsky S-70 Bravo are in the race.

    The navy at present relies on its fleet of Sea King helicopters which were inducted in two different phases in the 80s.

    The navy would require these multirole choppers in view of its expanding fleet size and expansion in its area of responsibility with the government stating that country’s strategic interest ranges from the Gulf of Aden to the Malacca Straits.

    ricky123

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:29 pm



    1:ec725
    2:aw139
    3:mi-14

    which others u think will compete
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:23 pm

    Is there a naval model of the Mi-38?

    Another option could be an upgraded Ka-32... I remember in the 1990s speculation about a Ka-45 that was an upgraded Ka-32 with new engines and systems... the new AESA radar for the Ka-52 might be interesting...


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    Viktor

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:15 am

    Well here is continuation of the story.

    Russia is applying with S-300VM/Antej-2500 on India tender for air-defense systems. S-300V would be excellent system

    for India as it can keep up with its tanks and at the same time protect it from Pakistan MRBM/IRBM/cruise missiles, AWACS/fighter etc

    This is not a cheap system either.



    Russia has decided to participate in an Indian tender for air defense system


    "We offer our Indian military air defense missile system, long-range S-300VM (Antey-2500)" - said Komardin.

    BANGALORE (India), February 7 - RIA Novosti. Russia plans to participate in the tender for the supply of air defense systems to India, told reporters Thursday the deputy head of "Rosoboronexport" Victor Komardin.
    According to him, now being "pre-bid process." "We offer our Indian military air defense missile system, long-range S-300VM (Antey-2500)" - said Komardin.


    The air defense system in India is based on U.S. and Israeli technology, "so Russia will be difficult to win."
    The estimated value of the contract to be concluded with the winner to be announced.
    Mobile multi-aircraft missile system S-300VM (Antey-2500) is designed to defeat current and future tactical and strategic aircraft, including executed using "stealth" technology, medium range ballistic missiles, tactical and tactical missiles, and aeroballistic cruise missiles and aircraft radar surveillance and tracking, reconnaissance-strike complexes and loitering jammers.
    India is the largest importer of Russian weapons. As stated Komardin recently, the total portfolio of Indian arms orders for last year amounted to more than $ 7 billion forecast for this year is even more optimistic.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:06 am

    Viktor wrote:The air defense system in India is based on U.S. and Israeli technology, "so Russia will be difficult to win.

    Ok guys .... sorry to be a downer here but India is not coming out with any RFI for any AD system anytime soon.

    Also since India does not have any AD system in place it cannot be " based on U.S. and Israeli technology " .

    Currently under development is the Prithvi BMD system and the Advanced Air Defence Interceptor . Both of which are indigenous and will take quite some time to be put into place .
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    Viktor

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Viktor on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:55 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Viktor wrote:The air defense system in India is based on U.S. and Israeli technology, "so Russia will be difficult to win.

    Ok guys .... sorry to be a downer here but India is not coming out with any RFI for any AD system anytime soon.

    Also since India does not have any AD system in place it cannot be " based on U.S. and Israeli technology " .

    Currently under development is the Prithvi BMD system and the Advanced Air Defence Interceptor . Both of which are indigenous and will take quite some time to be put into place .

    Agree, those remarks are a bit off but it could very easily be that journalist made some mistakes with their reporting as recently

    Russian delegation at India-2013 made some harsh remarks on India-USA corporation and weapons sales.

    As you know better than me, India is developing ADM solely for anti-ballistic missile purpose and S-300V i.e. Antej-2500 is the worlds

    first mobile ABM system. It could be that India might buy some to fill the time gap until its own is developed/tested/introduced.

    More to it as being mobile, S-300V will give India side more flexibility in comparison with its own ADM. Its march ability, ability to

    follow armored columns and short preparation time, its ability to shoot down Chinese/Pakistan cruise missiles and ballistic ones

    in prepared and unprepared positions is unmatched and might be just the thing India needs and its 4000 tank strong army will have

    bigger punch as now they can not be stopped with cruise, ballistic, fighter strikes on them.
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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  Viktor on Mon May 13, 2013 2:53 pm

    Referring to my Post India has a tender for 52 units of SHORAD.

    Well that tender seems to up that number to DOUBLE or 104 units of SHORAD. This of course refers to only fire units. All in all number

    of supporting vehicles might be at least same number as the fire units. Huge deal. Anyway this should be easy picking for Pancir-S1

    if capability is the only thing what counts.


    India has announced a tender for the supply of missile-gun systems

    Indian Ministry of Defence has announced a tender for the supply of 104 anti-aircraft missile and gun systems for ground troops, according to Defense News. The new system will replace the outdated anti-aircraft missile systems "Square" Soviet production. As expected, the winner will receive a contract worth at least $ 1.6 billion. The first is planned to consider the proposals of the national companies.

    According to the publication, for the first time to participate in the defense tenders have been invited to a private firm. In this case, none of the first private Indian companies have never been involved in the development or production of anti-aircraft missile and gun systems. To participate in the competition allowed firms in partnership with foreign companies. It is believed that because of this the Indian private sector will be able to adopt a number of important defense technologies.

    Among the private companies that have received the invitation to participate in the competition ─ Bharat Electronics, Larsen & Toubro, Tata Power SED, Punj Lloyd, Bharat Forge and ICOMM. They previously worked with the Indian Ministry of Defense, but the purchase of their products made in the contract agreements with large state enterprises, first of all, by the Defence Research and Development (DRDO).

    Of the foreign company received an invitation "Rosoboronexport", the Polish Bumar, the American General Dynamics, the French Thales, the South Korean Doosan Group and Israeli IAI and Elta. Under the terms of the final agreement, the winner will not only have to put the Indian army air defense system, but also thousands of rockets and 4,9 172,3 thousand shells for them. There will also be provided and the transfer of technologies used in the complexes.

    In terms of competition, rocket and cannon installation must be mounted on a mobile chassis-road. The system must be able to be picking up, shoot air targets with the radar fire control system or not. Firing range for gun arms shall not be less than 2.5 kilometers, and for rocket ─ not less than six miles away.

    Visibility is a new anti-aircraft missile radar and gun system designed to detect, capture and tracking of targets, should be 360 ​​degrees.


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    TR1

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    Re: Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 13, 2013 8:11 pm

    Weird, they are replacing Kub with SHORAD?
    Also, if they want a gun + missile chassis, Pantsir is really the only choice they have.

    India should forget all this and make strategic AD a priority + immediately purchase Antei-2500.
    GO BIG OR GO HOME!

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