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    Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

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    GarryB
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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:45 am

    Indeed, they have made great progress, but then they were behind by a large margin.

    They have made up a lot of ground in many areas, while in other areas there is plenty for them to work on.

    The point is how will they progress... will they continue to borrow and steal and copy, or will they learn and develop themselves.

    My limited experience of Chinese copies tells me that while in some areas their copies are inferior to the original, that in some areas they can be improvements.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:37 am

    A Chinese officer was quoted by the 'Peoples Daily' in which he gives some J-31 specs and confirms that it has Chinese engines.

    "Jian-31" is equipped with two turbofan engines WS13A (8300 kg each)

    Wingspan - 10.70 m
    length - 15.47 m
    height - 4.57 m
    wing area - 42.7 square meters
    maximum takeoff weight - 27 215 kg
    maximum combat load - 5897 kg.

    Source: http://bmpd.livejournal.com/373798.html

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    China's Stealth Fighters: Ready to Soar?

    Post  nemrod on Tue May 06, 2014 12:32 am

    For the Americans, obviously, when they have an opponnent that is ahead them, he necessarily copy.
    As China's economy is now overpassing western economy, they can afford now to get the best -or at least among - hardware in world.




    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-stealth-fighters-ready-soar-10262


    China's Stealth Fighters: Ready to Soar?

    The test pilots of China’s state-run Shenyang Aircraft Corporation have been joyriding in a high-tech new aircraft. Does China already have a multi-role fighter in the works to challenge the F-35? Or is this new aircraft really “all about the program?” Chinese military research and development is notoriously secretive, so Chinese and international People’s Liberation Army (PLA)-watchers were surprised by the October 2012 appearance of the J-31, a fully-fledged, advanced fighter prototype, deployed by the Shenyang Aircraft Company. It’s similarity in shape to the F-35 is noteworthy. In recent months there has been a great deal of speculation about successful Chinese espionage against the F-35 program, although most of it has focused on the appearance of certain sensor systems on China’s prototype air-superiority fighter, the J-20. The J-20 might very well have been influenced by the F-35, but the J-31 almost certainly was.

    With a rumored three prototypes in production, the J-31 might be one-half of a “high-low mix” of big J-20s for high-altitude dogfighting with the elite aircraft of China’s enemies, while the J-31 fills the ranks as the mainline fighter and strike aircraft, in a force configuration similar to what the U.S. Air Force is pursuing with the F-22 and the F-35A. But it’s not likely. It’s always hard to know in advance what the Chinese military is going to do with its technology; so far, the signs are that the J-31 is intended for export and is not going to be in service with the PLA Air Force in large numbers. There have been mixed statements from Chinese military officials and state-run media about the aircraft’s future. This could be a result of the fact that China’s military-industrial complex often employs a “generational leap-frogging” system of development. Numerous different designs are rapidly produced and used as prototypes or inducted into service in small numbers to quickly advance Chinese mastery of the technology, but also to build institutional capability for the mass production of a system that can match its international peers. This system is clear in China’s naval development: the PLA Navy has inducted five native-produced destroyer classes into service since the 1990s, each an incremental improvement over the previous one, with only the final class, the 052D, approved for mass production.

    China’s aircraft development has followed a similar model in recent years. Shenyang Aircraft Corporation has produced small test batches of highly upgraded Flankers and carrier-ready Flankers, as well as the J-31. The Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, the other giant, state-run aerospace company, rolled out the J-10A multirole fighter in 2005, which was superseded a few years later by the upgraded J-10B, and is now producing the J-20 air-superiority fighter prototypes. It’s hard to imagine that the PLA Air Force will abandon their small-batch, rapid advance approach just yet and be satisfied with their first attempts at fifth-generation aircraft technology. Thus, the J-31 probably exists less for striking enemy aircraft out of the sky and more for improving the capabilities of China’s aerospace engineers. Check back in with us again in a year or two when China reveals their next prototype to get a better sense of what the F-35’s rival might look like.


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    Shenyang J-31 Fighter: News

    Post  nemrod on Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:25 pm

    It was said that the J-31 will be powered by chinese indigenous WS-10G in few years. Right now it will we the RD-33
    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/11480/Russian_RD_93_Engine_To_Power_China___s_New_J_31_Fighter_Jet#.VGJwaI8u7I-



    Russian RD-93 Engine To Power China’s New J-31 Fighter Jet
    Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, November 10, 2014 @ 12:34 PM



    China’s soon-to-be debuted J-31 fighter aircraft will be powered by the Russian-made RD-93 engine.

    Rosoboronexport’s Air Force Equipment Export Department Head Sergey Kornev, "J-31 with the Russian engine RD-93 is considered to be an export program, able to compete with the American F-35 fifth generation aircraft on the regional markets."

    "The program is ambitious, but very real, especially considering the high cost of F-35 and some problems with its development," Kornev added.

    According to Ria Novosti, Sergey Kornev, head of the Russian delegation at China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, said that two fifth generation fighters are being developed in China, the J-20 and J-31, which demonstrates the high potential of Chinese science and aviation industry.

    China will present the J-31 stealth fighter at the 10th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition on November 11, 2014 in Zhuhai and conduct a demonstration flight.

    According to Nanfang Daily, the J-31 stealth fighter is very likely to be put into mass production within five years, and has a big chance of being a carrier-borne type.



    It has been just two years since the successful maiden flight of the J-31 in 2012. As a fighter under test, the J-31 is now in the primary stage of performance development.

    Russian RD-93 engines are a variant of the RD-33 engines, initially developed to power MiG-29 fighters. The RD-93 was developed by Russia’s Klimov design bureau specifically for the FC-1 fighter, known in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder, according to Ria Novosti.



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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:27 am

    AFAIK the main difference was to move the gearbox and equipment on the engine.

    I would not be surprised if the Argentines consider it to replace old French engines in their Mirages in lieu of a new aircraft.

    Of course a few MiG-29SMTs or MiG-29M2s would be a huge step up for them in terms of performance without costing too much.

    BVR missile capability will make them rather more potent than their old Skyhawks and Mirages.


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    zhuhai air show 31001 model 2.0 pic

    Post  type055 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:01 am













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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  max steel on Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:56 pm

    Taiwan seeks Russia's help in designing 5th gen fighters Laughing


    http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20150328000054

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:29 am

    max steel wrote:Taiwan seeks Russia's help in designing 5th gen fighters  Laughing  


    http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20150328000054

    Russian assistance? I'm extremely skeptical of the claim made that Russian adviser's are aiding Taiwan in the creation of 5th gen fighters, combined with the fact that the US and the PRC would raise 'bloody-hell' over the cooperation, the mere fact that no 'shit-storm' has erupted over this tells all about how valid the claim is.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:34 am

    the russian assistance to develop a new SAM system for South Korea seemed to be successful... all the US could offer in this regard would be a part share in the F-35... which does not sound so appealing to me... and I don't think there will be cooperation between South Korea and China.

    I rather suspect China has been hiring Russian expertise with the new developments... why wouldn't they... they have money and Russia has no sanctions on China...


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:the russian assistance to develop a new SAM system for South Korea seemed to be successful... all the US could offer in this regard would be a part share in the F-35... which does not sound so appealing to me... and I don't think there will be cooperation between South Korea and China.

    I rather suspect China has been hiring Russian expertise with the new developments... why wouldn't they... they have money and Russia has no sanctions on China...

    With China yes! But with Taiwan? No!

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Sun May 03, 2015 5:41 am

    GarryB wrote:the russian assistance to develop a new SAM system for South Korea seemed to be successful... all the US could offer in this regard would be a part share in the F-35... which does not sound so appealing to me... and I don't think there will be cooperation between South Korea and China.

    I rather suspect China has been hiring Russian expertise with the new developments... why wouldn't they... they have money and Russia has no sanctions on China...
    I can almost guarantee that the Chinese contract Russian engineers to help with their aerospace field as well as ever other imaginable engineering field. My grandfather had his company build a revolutionary NPP in China. His company had a lot of really advanced contracts and designs such as being involved with nearly every reactor that goes into a Russian Navy ship. I have heard of a lot of people that were contracted by China. There are plenty of examples of Russia helping China with its developments. For example, the WZ-10 was in full designed by the famed Kamov bureau and I am sure there has been help continuing since then. Of course some designs were blatantly stolen (e.g. J-20 and J-11).

    I think that it is great that the Chinese have to rely on Russia to help them carry out major project. I have heard someone go as far as joking that "the Chinese will never be capable of an independent or orginal thought in our lifetime." The one thing that is keeping Russia and China on good terms is the threat of America and its interests. What if the US were to be out of the picture? Major powers rarely ever get along in history and we have also seen Chinese aggression against nearly all it neighbors including Russia back in the 60's. Fortunately, China limits itself greatly by having Russian engineers become the driving force behind key technological developments in the country. This will prevent the Chinese from developing their engineering schools are other such establishments. There is only so much you can learn from reverse engineering.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun May 03, 2015 9:42 am

    Ivan the Colorado,

    I think you severely underestimate modern China (too put it mildly)

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 03, 2015 10:39 am

    Everybody copies ideas... just look at Boeings plans for wing in ground effect aircraft, or test Humvees with 82mm Vasilek automatic mortars mounted on the back... often new systems include technology and advancements from the generation before... the basic layout of an F-22 is pretty much the same as the F-15... which is pretty much the same layout as the MiG-25... despite claims it was based on something else.

    However once you are working on systems that are at or near the state of the art then you come up with new and different ways to progress depending on your own needs.

    China started out behind in most areas but with a bit of investment and a bit of buying the technology from overseas they are actually quite competitive in many areas now.

    In the 1990s you could say almost the same about Russia... their infrastructure needed lots of investment and a complete overhaul but the talent and technology in some areas was still world beating... there is still no foreign system comparable to Tunguska in service in numbers and Tunguska entered service in the mid 1980s.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun May 03, 2015 2:27 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Ivan the Colorado,

    I think you severely underestimate modern China (too put it mildly)

    There are really only two ways to gauge the current state of Chinese defence technology... imports and exports. Exports being tested systems acceptable to third parties and imports showing what China lacks in technology.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Werewolf on Sun May 03, 2015 3:33 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Ivan the Colorado,

    I think you severely underestimate modern China (too put it mildly)

    There are really only two ways to gauge the current state of Chinese defence technology... imports and exports.  Exports being tested systems acceptable to third parties and imports showing what China lacks in technology.    

    China does lack overall in technology but it is a blatant to just claim China can only copy or has no technologies.

    You just have to look where China was 50 years back, they had nothing it just started becoming an industrial country while US and Russia already had their nuclear weapons race.

    There are two ways for a country that seeks to be mighty or develops itself the best it can. The first way would be the same as Russia,US and some other countries trying to invest money in research and projects with risk of failure, there is a huge list of failed projects in those countries, and somewhen in 100 years to get where the rest of the big players are. The other method is to take any measures needed to first eleminate the big gap between your country and the progress and level in military technologies of the rest big players, by that china safed itself already more than 50 years and shit load of money by avoiding to spent valuable resources on research and projects.

    China currently is strong and nobody can doubt it. Yes, they do lack in most fields but that is just a question of 10-15 years which they far better can deal with then most countries would expect or admitt.

    They bought technology, sought for partners for new technologies and copied, regardless how someone feels about it all those bring technologies to china and understanding of new technologies. Their Military Industrial complex is the biggest grower since years, while most others are declining or barely growing.


    Don't underestimate china they always had smart and capable people.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  max steel on Sun May 03, 2015 4:57 pm

    Yankees also share technology with China . China steal most stuff from Usa . It was US who gave MIRV tech to China let alone those israeli companies which comfortably steal america's tech and sell them to chinese . No one talks about or mention it but its been happening .

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Sun May 03, 2015 10:35 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Ivan the Colorado,

    I think you severely underestimate modern China (too put it mildly)

    I respectfully beg to differ. I have heard talk about China's lack of a developed engineering education from some of the brightest minds not only in Russia but in America as well (I live in a town with a huge military and military contractor presence) about China's inability to properly design and carry out some of their major projects with some foreign expertise. The more I get involved in the engineering field, the more I see this being true. Sure, part of that is due to the fact that China was incredibly poor less than three decades ago and they have had to play catch up since then. But due to them being able to amass so much wealth thanks to the huge population there, China has more than enough money and more than enough time has passed for them to fully establish themselves as capable to carry out their own projects. I will use Russia as a counter example, Russia was in a difficult and an arguably worse situation back in the 90's (collapsed economy, brain drain, ect.), but they have managed to reestablish themselves and in my opinion, begin to rise above the Soviet peak. But China hasn't been able to do so much on its own, and why is that? China has been trying to push its products on the market like the J-11 and their S-300 copy (forgot what it is called), yet other nations prefer Russian equipment. Even China itself does, China is in the process of purchasing the Su-35 and the S-400. This not to say that the Chinese haven't been progressing or at least trying to. Look at their civil aviation sector, the regional ARJ-21 and the soon to come narrowbody Comac C919. Building a regional jet from scratch no matter how crappy it has been reported to be is quite the accomplishment.

    I am not underestimating how much China has been able to change itself over the last several years or how much money they have to spend. We all know China has made significant progress there. The Chinese engineers haven't been able to catch up to level of the Russians or the Americans and their progress in that sector has been low when comparing it to everything else they have managed to do.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon May 04, 2015 12:04 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    China does lack overall in technology but it is a blatant to just claim China can only copy or has no technologies.

    You just have to look where China was 50 years back, they had nothing it just started becoming an industrial country while US and Russia already had their nuclear weapons race.

    There are two ways for a country that seeks to be mighty or develops itself the best it can. The first way would be the same as Russia,US and some other countries trying to invest money in research and projects with risk of failure, there is a huge list of failed projects in those countries, and somewhen in 100 years to get where the rest of the big players are. The other method is to take any measures needed to first eleminate the big gap between your country and the progress and level in military technologies of the rest big players, by that china safed itself already more than 50 years and shit load of money by avoiding to spent valuable resources on research and projects.

    China currently is strong and nobody can doubt it. Yes, they do lack in most fields but that is just a question of 10-15 years which they far better can deal with then most countries would expect or admitt.

    They bought technology, sought for partners for new technologies and copied, regardless how someone feels about it all those bring technologies to china and understanding of new technologies. Their Military Industrial complex is the biggest grower since years, while most others are declining or barely growing.


    Don't underestimate china they always had smart and capable people.

    I think going by imports and exports is the only legitimate way to objectively gauge them.  Considering how much cheaper their systems are for export when they make a competent weapon system to compete with Russian samples then you will see it sell like hot cakes.  When they have to make orders for current Russian systems for them to tear down and reverse engineer also shows the limits of their success... or lack of it.  It is really the only objective way to look at it.  Reviewing Chinese history or education system is another discussion when the only thing that matters are the results of where they are now.  Throwing money just leads to corruption. I will take a lean mean development team over a wad of cash any day.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  mack8 on Mon May 04, 2015 12:09 am

    I don't think dissing China's engineers as "unable" and taking what some in a "town with a huge military and military contractor presence"- a very biased medium by any measure- says about them actually offers any accurate image. There is as much anti-chinese propaganda and stereotyping just like there is against Russia (and a favourite US and stooges past time is to try and seed discord between Russia and China, they are afraid s**less of such an alliance). On the contrary, regardless through whatever means they have achieved it, the chinese ascent in the last few decades has been nothing short of amazing. They got from Mao's China- backward, grossly underdeveloped, low education standard, far behind technologically, to THIS- the second most powerful economy in the world, a military to match, and an industrial base again rivaling the best. Militarily speaking, look at their aircraft and ship construction, look how much they advanced. Also you cannot compare China under Mao and it's policy and China of today, so whatever tensions between USSR and China in the past are irrelevant today.
     
    If i am to compare them to anyone at least militarily, you know who it would be? The japanese in 1941- they were dissed and derided as oblique eyed copycats back then, but when the shooting started, they were kicking yankee's b*** so hard they couldn't believe it, their ships were top notch, aircraft same,  tactics remarcable and bold, their bravery unmatched. Oh yes i know about their economical weaknesses and blatant mistakes in tactical and strategic planning, but also i could say they were unlucky at least in 1942. The point is, they were far more formidable that they were given credit for.

    I bet the chinese are just as formidable if not even more, not in small measure because of the typical asian self-determination and discipline. Certainly China does NOT have the japanese economical weakness of 1941, although they are not quite there yet regarding relative military power compared to US. But all else being equal, oh they will, and very shortly.

    Btw regarding J-11, they never offered it for export. They did got a LICENCE for it, and whatever disagreements (IF any) surely they must have been solved in an amiable manner between both sides, and not only about J-11. Regardless what one can read even in the russian press (again, remember the aforementioned discord i mentioned), i haven't heard any such worries and accusations about "copying" and the like from russian officials, but i'll welcome corrections here if indeed the case.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon May 04, 2015 12:18 am

    max steel wrote:Yankees also share technology with China . China steal most stuff from Usa . It was US who gave MIRV tech to China let alone those israeli companies which comfortably steal america's tech and sell them to chinese . No one talks about or mention it but its been happening .

    The technology the US and Russia shares with China is decades old. By the time they can competently field it, it is yet another decade behind. They need to stop worrying about copying old tech and develop the ingenuity and innovation to create their own systems and do so in a timely manner.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Werewolf on Mon May 04, 2015 12:36 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    max steel wrote:Yankees also share technology with China . China steal most stuff from Usa . It was US who gave MIRV tech to China let alone those israeli companies which comfortably steal america's tech and sell them to chinese . No one talks about or mention it but its been happening .

    The technology the US and Russia shares with China is decades old.  By the time they can competently field it, it is yet another decade behind. They need to stop worrying about copying old tech and develop the ingenuity and innovation to create their own systems and do so in a timely manner.  

    The point here is that china still is in development of its Military Industrial complex, while Russia and US have already existing MIC'sfor decades, China is almost at its completion, not final but soon enough. You can't work on new technologies if you don't have the facilities and the industrial strength to carry the procurement and R&D all by yourself. You may look down to china's military and technological level but people and yes i mean majority of people will realize to late that China is a superpower not just in economy but also military within 5-10 years their MIC is on same level and in 15-20 years it is probably above that of Russia. The growth of China is astonishing to say the least.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 04, 2015 6:57 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    max steel wrote:Yankees also share technology with China . China steal most stuff from Usa . It was US who gave MIRV tech to China let alone those israeli companies which comfortably steal america's tech and sell them to chinese . No one talks about or mention it but its been happening .

    The technology the US and Russia shares with China is decades old.  By the time they can competently field it, it is yet another decade behind. They need to stop worrying about copying old tech and develop the ingenuity and innovation to create their own systems and do so in a timely manner.  

    The point here is that china still is in development of its Military Industrial complex, while Russia and US have already existing MIC'sfor decades, China is almost at its completion, not final but soon enough. You can't work on new technologies if you don't have the facilities and the industrial strength to carry the procurement and R&D all by yourself. You may look down to china's military and technological level but people and yes i mean majority of people will realize to late that China is a superpower not just in economy but also military within 5-10 years their MIC is on same level and in 15-20 years it is probably above that of Russia. The growth of China is astonishing to say the least.

    Maybe but China, while playing catchup, Russia is producing new technologies, ie the example that magnum provided about KRET and photons for radar which would give Russia a massive boost above the rest in for example. China has the ability to produce many in short period of time, and I give them credit. But as mentioned, their innovation is quite lacking, as majority of the tech they are using is western technologies mixed with Russian innovation (J-11's, Jf-17, etc). But I have to hand it to china their ability to build. Heck, even I am starting to think that Russia should contract China to help modernize their naval facilities to be able to produce ships at much greater paces and Russia use some of their own components as well. Like Corvettes or what not. Cause Russia is having a difficult time with their shipbuilding plants at the moment and getting help from China may not be such a bad idea. Russia should also offer China JV in building more aircrafts. JF-17 is an example of Mikoyan's work being implemented by China, same thing with the Wz-10 attack choper designed by Kamov. Instead of waiting to be overtaken or being matched by China, Russia should get in on the action so that they make some dough and also get the ability to make it too themselves.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 04, 2015 1:03 pm

    When you start from so far behind you have to buy or steal to get up with the game... everybody buys new ideas... even the west will buy new ideas.

    I think it is amusing to accuse China of copying and stealing ideas when the largest structure in the world for copying and stealing information is run by the NSA... do you really think they use it to find child molesters and drug dealers and terrorists?


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Ivan the Colorado
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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Tue May 05, 2015 1:22 am

    GarryB wrote:When you start from so far behind you have to buy or steal to get up with the game... everybody buys new ideas... even the west will buy new ideas.

    I think it is amusing to accuse China of copying and stealing ideas when the largest structure in the world for copying and stealing information is run by the NSA... do you really think they use it to find child molesters and drug dealers and terrorists?
    That is a very fair description of China's capacities. I am just restating what I hear from smarter individuals that actually are involved in the business.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  type055 on Tue May 05, 2015 10:29 am




    a pic of J31 2.0 on internet they say second prototype will appear in 2015



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