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    Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

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    nightcrawler
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    Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:28 pm

    Don't know the authenticity of the report, but it could very well be the SAC heavy stealth fighter-bomber we've been speculating about.


    'Snowy Owl' Jet Project: China's Latest J-20 Surprise?Politics?News?WantChinaTimes.com

    'Snowy Owl' Jet Project: China's Latest J-20 Surprise

    According to an image revealed by China's state-run TV station, the country is developing a fourth generation fighter. Nicknamed Snowy Owl by Chinese military enthusiasts, the appearance of the jet fighter is similar to the F-35 made by the United States defense contractor Lockheed Martin.

    The J-20 stealth fighter is not the last Chinese technological development which will astonish the United States, one Chinese netizen said in an online message; Snowy Owl is just another example.

    China is secretly developing a triplane-canard-configurated fighter that has a totally different architecture to that of the J-20, CCTV was quoted by Hong Kong-based Sing Tao Daily as reporting. Some Chinese online military experts believe that the fighter is very likly to be the Snowy Owl, currently being developed by the AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC).

    Online information regarding the SAC says that it is manufacturing a new type of aircraft whose design uses triplane canard configuration, Chinese netizens reported.

    The aircraft has a fixed vertical wing, and the engine has rhomboidal nozzles, according to the CCTV report, adding that the design renders the aircraft lighter than most of the fourth generation fighters.

    The prediction matches that of the Shenyang stealth fighter-bomber that is set to compete with the J-20 and serve alongside the J-16

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:34 am

    What is the point of a VTOL fighter these days?

    Enormous penalty in lots of performance areas and cost in development and operation for an ability to use very short takeoff strips or operate from small ships.

    It is better to make bigger ships.

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    Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:54 am

    A triplane canard can hardly be stealthy.

    What is the point of a VTOL fighter these days?
    What if your air-strip be bombarded Garry?? Twisted Evil

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:16 am

    If your airstrip gets attacked then you operate your aircraft from short strips of road... they can't destroy all your roads.

    As I said... the penalty imposed by taking off vertically would be much greater than operating your aircraft from the road outside your airbase.

    Besides the suggestion that a VTOL aircraft can just take off from any clearing is bunk.

    Pick a clearing in a forest and try to take off there and all the mud and grass your jet engines blast into the air will guarantee your engines will stop working and never work again.

    In practise Harriers never operated from forest clearings and generally used rolling takeoffs of 200-300m which a Mig-29 could probably have used too.

    Most 5th gen fighters have very high thrust to weight ratios anyway so with an air to air load will likely be able to operate from strips not much longer than 3-400m so for a runway that is 2-5km long to disable it you would need to hit it in 10 to 25 places to ensure there was not enough contiguous flat surface to take off from.

    Given time runways will be repaired too... if you anticipate the enemy will be able to hit all your airfields before your fighters even get airborne then perhaps you really don't want your pilots in the air anyway... Laughing

    Of course regarding the triplane layout... they seem to want to make their own Su-33s... and no it is not stealthy... at all.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:33 am

    Pick a clearing in a forest and try to take off there and all the mud and grass your jet engines blast into the air will guarantee your engines will stop working and never work again.

    I agree but you gotta admit this is cool

    The British turned cargo ships into disguised aircraft carriers during the Falkland war.



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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:49 am

    Nice idea in theory, but taking a container ship into a combat zone and making it a target is not the best idea.

    It simply doesn't have the armour or compartmentalism or the resistance to battle damage a real warship has.

    Nice and sneaky but when exposed a sitting duck.

    And lets face it the Harrier is a slow aircraft which at the time had the best weapon it could possibly have had at the time in the all aspect AIM-9L.

    Against decent aircraft in widespread service at the time with a decent radar and BVR missiles they would have been in serious trouble.

    A Mig-23 with look down shoot down radar and R-24R and R-24T AAMs and R-60s and those Harriers would have been in serious trouble... with their speed the Migs would have been able to pick and choose where and when to engage and they could engage from head on at long range... unlike the Harrier.

    Obviously now with AMRAAMs the Sea Harrier is much better off than it was, but it is still a subsonic fighter and when the enemy has R-77s it is still in trouble.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:25 am

    On VTOL: The VTOL JSF variant is unique in this class compared to the Harrier or Yak FORGER in that the lift fan is not simply ducted jet exhaust... instead, it uses a transmission shaft from the engine to turn a massive lift fan. This does two things:

    1) Much greater lifting power compared to ducting jet exhaust

    2) The air flow downward is not oxygen-depleted, and can be ingested by the engine with no ill effects except for FOD.

    The F-35 VTOL shows great promise.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:43 am

    The fan also occupies an enormous internal volume and while hot air ingestion is a serious issue FOD ingestion is just as important and this lifting fan improves the situation with hot air ingestion it does nothing for FOD ingestion which is the primary concern if you just want to take off anywhere.

    I rather suspect the VTOL F-35 is not going to go into service anyway.

    1) Much greater lifting power compared to ducting jet exhaust

    Actually small vertical jet engines are more compact at were the choice of the only other two supersonic VTOL aircraft... the Yak-141 and a French modification of one of their Mirage aircraft.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Pervius on Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:25 pm

    Actually for China cargo ships being used as aircraft launch platforms make perfect sense.

    You can sneak in for a 1st Strike, have the element of surprise, then you have a Landing Spot B to resort to or just ditch the aircraft in Grid X in the ocean and await a submarine to pick you up.

    China could afford to dispose of the few assets such a tactical strike would provide. If it wanted to it could have the cargo containers pop open and fire a volley of cruise missiles off as well before it's eventually sunk.

    Have the cargo ship hooked to a computer to drive around in zigzags around the ocean and you tie up the enemies submarines and ships chasing it as well as any air power would be directed to finding it.

    Makes perfect tactical sense.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:29 am

    Such a vessel would be too easy to sink to be effective.

    It makes much more sense to use cargo vessels to keep delivering cheap goods to the west and defeat them economically...

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Pervius on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:54 pm

    ""Such a vessel would be too easy to sink to be effective.""

    Isn't there an armada of ghost cargo ships sitting off of China's coast because they aren't exporting like they used to?

    Either you watch them rust away and sink...or you use them as a disposable military asset. Who care's how easy they are to sink.
    1st Strike capability makes their sacrifice acceptable.

    China can build a medium sized missile cruiser in 90 days. America has no steel mills anymore to build replacement ships. Takes years for them to build ships....waiting for the plate steel and supplies from china to do it.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:32 pm

    ...& Chinese are making Carriers now. Will posts the picture soon enough

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:36 am

    I don't think there is enough superiority in numbers any more.

    Even the Soviets went for numbers but still had performance in mind as well, but with modern multi targeting systems and smart weapons that generally hit their targets more often than not outnumbering your opponent is simply not enough.

    The other issue is how effective will that first surprise attack be... because the response will be to sink all Chinese flagged cargo vessels on sight... which will totally cripple Chinese exports and imports capability by sea.

    Wasting money on a VSTOL aircraft like that is silly. What they should be doing is spending money on alternative fuels. It is not that hard to get an internal combustion engine to run on hydrogen gas. The byproduct of burning hydrogen gas in an engine is water in the form of steam. Collect and condense that water into a small storage container in the car and when you get home from your journey you connect a pipe to your car so the water runs into a fuel cell and a solar panel is used to separate the hydrogen and oxygen from the water to be pumped back into your car for your trip tomorrow. In fact there is no reason why the fuel cell and solar panels couldn't be included in the car design. No more petrol stations. Wont that be a kick in the balls of the big powerful western oil companies? Sorry... there are no more western oil companies... they have rebranded themselves as "energy" companies... just like the Department of War and the Ministry of War both changed their names at the end of WWII to Department of Defence and the Ministry of Defence. Their function and purpose was not changed in any way... just their stationary.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Pervius on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:44 am

    ""... because the response will be to sink all Chinese flagged cargo vessels on sight..""

    China is soon going to lose all the assets around the world they bought, including Iran as an Energy source. Either they go out shooting...or they will be like North Korea and will be cornered and starved to death.

    If they go 1st Strike battle tactic they could take out all assets capable of war. They couldn't do it alone due to US having assets around the world. They would need support from many countries to pull off the surprise attack at once. Maybe even Japanese military would side with bonzai tactic.

    I bet the US would go nuclear very very early to stop it. Maybe US already has nuclear bombs planted under China cities. Maybe Chinese already have nuclear bombs already planted in US cities.

    China would win due to vast numbers of military hardware they could spread out before the first shot. Using Google Earth looking at Chinese airbases you see no fuel depots. Where the heck does China store fuel for airbases? Can't be targeted because nobody can see it. America on the other hand, everyone can see where fuel is stored.

    Boom. How you going to fly to target Chinese cargo ships when all your fuel is gone? US submarines could be fooled by reflagging cargo ships as Taiwanese.



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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:59 am

    If the US ever did anything to really p!ss the Chinese off the easiest thing the Chinese could do is start selling US bonds.

    The Chinese have bought US debt in the form of US bonds for some time now and it doesn't take a genius to work out that they want leverage on the US for something.

    The idea that the US has any chance of isolating China like it has North Korea is silly. It is not the US government that has a say, it is western big business that are flooding into China looking for places to set up their filthy non safe standard factories to use the plentiful labour that does not require health benefits or any rights at all. Cheap production allows larger profit margins.
    The US might put sanctions on China but Europe wont, and that will give their products a huge competitive edge... it will be much cheaper than the American goods made in some other sh!thole where they don't even have a word for unions or workers rights.

    Boom. How you going to fly to target Chinese cargo ships when all your
    fuel is gone? US submarines could be fooled by reflagging cargo ships as
    Taiwanese.

    You are missing one important factor.
    WTF are either of them going to start a real war with each other for?

    Libya makes sense for the US because there is lots of untapped oil resources in the country, and whether the new regime loves the US or hates it... if it wants to rebuild it will need to access those untapped oil resources... which will lower the price of oil on the international market... which is exactly what the US wants. It wouldn't even matter if it was Chinese or even Russian companies that get the contracts... as long as that oil flows the US is happy.

    A war with the US would lead to immediate damage and blockade of China... hard to enjoy economic growth in such a condition. For the US it might not be so bad as cutting off the cheap workforce of China might make some US industries start looking at using american workers instead.

    The huge irony for the American people is that it was their tax money that bailed out the rich people in America. What did these rich bankers do? Spend money in the US economy to stimulate growth for all Americans?
    Nah!!!! P!ss off. They put their bail out money into China because the returns to them are better in the short term and they can make more money that way.

    What the American people should have demanded was that the bailout money should have paid back all the bad loans. It wasn't that long ago that there were laws that said if a bank lent money to someone they weren't sure could pay the money back then that person was not liable if they couldn't pay it back.
    It was a law that made loan sharking illegal as an example.
    It was also the main reason why getting a loan with most banks used to be harder than getting into Harvard. You basically got it if you were rich. In other words you got a loan if you could prove you had so much assets and income that you didn't really need a loan.
    They changed those rules and banks would give anyone a loan to buy a house as long as the house was collateral because if you found you couldn't pay the loan they just took the house and with house prices going up all the time they didn't lose anything. When the house market collapsed however and house prices plummeted all of a sudden you had millions of loans worth billions of dollars where the borrower can't afford to pay off the loan and the loan is now worth more than the house the loan was used to buy. The borrower could sell their house but were unlikely to get enough money from the sale assuming they could even sell the house, to pay back the loan so they would still owe money to the bank and have no house to live it.

    Another option would be to nuke a couple of US cities... that would destroy a lot of houses and push the price of the remaining houses up so they could be sold and the money paid to the banks in full.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Pervius on Sun May 22, 2011 6:51 pm

    ""When the house market collapsed however and house prices plummeted all of a sudden you had millions of loans worth billions of dollars where the borrower can't afford to pay off the loan ""

    Starting in 2005 illegal aliens were given the privilege of getting mortgages in America. I believe it was 2008 when there were news reports that HUD said there were 5 million illegal immigrants who were in foreclosure.

    5 million times average mortgage of $450,000each since most of them were in California=Trillions.

    The true numbers now may even be higher. illegal immigrants in America were buying and selling homes between themselves then running across the border with Trillions.

    Starting in 2000 in California the spanish speaking radio stations were saying illegal immigrants could buy a new automobile with little down and only a utility bill. The illegals in California jumped and danced.....then got their new SUV's and drove them across the border never to pay for them.

    In all actuality America is insolvent. All it's money went south of the border and to China.


    ""WTF are either of them going to start a real war with each other for?""


    -F16's getting sold to Taiwan
    -inability of the US to deliver on it's debt to China
    -China using military force to protect it's Yuan which America's forced them to devalue...for no reason.

    It should be the dollar thats devalued, by a factor of 1000.

    The War will be over currency policy or arms sales to Taiwan. China will only go to war in self defense.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 23, 2011 3:35 am

    Starting in 2005 illegal aliens were given the privilege of getting mortgages in America. I believe it was 2008 when there were news reports that HUD said there were 5 million illegal immigrants who were in foreclosure.

    5 million times average mortgage of $450,000each since most of them were in California=Trillions.

    And do you think it was the big powerful illegal alien lobby group that got them this right for mortgages?
    Do you think it might have been the greedy banks that pushed it through thinking that with house prices the way they are it doesn't matter if pets could get mortgages the banks still make money on the deals... as long as the house prices keep going up.

    The true numbers now may even be higher. illegal immigrants in America were buying and selling homes between themselves then running across the border with Trillions.

    Really? The world economic collapse wasn't greedy bankers... it was poor illegal mexicans who are now rich mexicans?
    Don't really read much about US border patrol catching people hauling large bundles of money into Mexico across the US Mexico border.

    Starting in 2000 in California the spanish speaking radio stations were saying illegal immigrants could buy a new automobile with little down and only a utility bill. The illegals in California jumped and danced.....then got their new SUV's and drove them across the border never to pay for them.

    In all actuality America is insolvent. All it's money went south of the border and to China.

    So what you are saying is that Americans offered to sell cars and houses to people who were in America illegally.
    I don't believe Americans are that dumb.

    The War will be over currency policy or arms sales to Taiwan. China will only go to war in self defense.

    It would be very easy to engineer a war with China... just have a colour revolution in Taiwan. The US has practised it all over Eastern Europe and now the Middle East and Africa.

    The point is however that China has nukes and a military big enough and a government that really wont care about casualties when it is trying to get what it wants.

    China will start listening to the US about the value of its currency when the US listens to China about "Human Rights".

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    Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:47 am

    Pretty important aviation event...

    MAIDEN FLIGHT OF CHINESE F-60/J 31 FIFTH GENERATION STEALTH FIGHTER JET
    http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.cz/2012/10/maiden-flight-of-chinese-f-60j-31-fifth.html

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:18 am

    Hehehehe... I think back to some of the chats I had with mostly American teenagers in the mid 1990s about how the Russian MIC is dead and that by now Russia would have old model F-16s in service and other cast off western fighters.

    It never occurred to them that the Russian MIC might recover, or that other countries like China or India might develop competitive aircraft.

    Obviously we know very little about this Chinese aircraft, but the fact that it no longer looks like a warmed over Mig-21 is progress and such a development might result in Japan re examining its post WWII policies.

    At the start of WWII the Japanese naval air arm was second to none and that didn't happen by accident.

    They have plenty of potential, but a lot to relearn too.

    It looks to me like China have some spies inside the JSF program... Smile


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:07 pm

    it looks like JSF in blaack Razz

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:05 pm

    Earlier this year I met a bunch of English guys in their late twenties, early thirties in downtown Shanghai . Initially I mistook them as visitors from Hong Kong . I soon realized that they were actually from the UK who are working on the outskirts of Shanghai in a automobile manufacturing plant. My curiosity got the better of me and I enquired if they were here on an on-site project . " No, we have been hired by Chinese Head Hunters after we uploaded our CVs in a Chinese job portal and USHI " ( China's version of LinkedIn) .

    I was even informed that a number of graduates and experienced workers who are unable to find jobs in the UK and other parts of EU are now flocking to China . It's not without reason that China's aerospace industry is the fastest growing industry in the world . The West still maintains a technological edge but within the next 5-6 years that edge will vaporize .

    Ergo , to see China come up with 3 stealth aircraft prototypes within 3 years is certainly not surprising.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:44 pm

    getting nervous over them copying our aircraft though..

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:59 pm

    I want to know the engines, it is not WS-13.


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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:29 am

    No information is available on the engines. The engines are the Chinese weakest point so far but no doubt they'll put a lot effort into it.

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    Re: Shenyang J-31 Stealth Fighter

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:45 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:getting nervous over them copying our aircraft though..

    The most favorite hunting ground for CHinese recruiters is the Russia - China border . Very Happy

    China's most advanced engine till date is the AL-31F family engines .Secondly, while China has made technological breakthroughs in areas like panoramic AMLCDs & IRSTs with the help of Ukraine, Belarus & some CIS republics in crucial areas like sensor-fusion & high-end dual-mode optronic sensors, it is far behind Russia , US and EU. A stealthy airframe alone is not enough to achieve low-observability. Sensor-fusion & net-centricity are far more important factors, something the T50 will have in abundance

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