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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:05 am

    Only tactics can defend from RPG rockets.

    Operating at higher levels, not flying straight an level... reduce hovering to a bare minimum... and of course man the MGs in the doors and use them.

    DIRCMs suites will give an approach warning, but RPGs and MANPADs are fast and helicopters don't manouver quickly.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:25 pm

    I doubt it's RPG, hitting a helicopter with that is extremely hard, in no video ( and there are many ) has the MI-35 been seen hovering, it has been on the move and in high altitude in every video. That leaves Igla and Strela, ISIS has captured many from Syria.

    The defense upgrades are needed, let's see whether MoD will understand, perhaps Russia-Iraq will speak about the downing of this MI-35 and they will be told about the upgrades.
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    Post  medo on Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:59 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:I doubt it's RPG, hitting a helicopter with that is extremely hard, in no video ( and there are many ) has the MI-35 been seen hovering, it has been on the move and in high altitude in every video. That leaves Igla and Strela, ISIS has captured many from Syria.

    The defense upgrades are needed, let's see whether MoD will understand, perhaps Russia-Iraq will speak about the downing of this MI-35 and they will be told about the upgrades.

    Problem is in tactics. Ataka missiles on Mi-35 have enough range (8km) to keep it outside the range of MANPADs and guns. From videos it is often seen, that recce IA-407 fly behind Mi-35. IA-407 is there to find targets and locate them for Mi-35, that it could attack them from max. distance. No need to attack targets with rockets and guns, because than helicopter is too near and in range of MANPADs and AA guns.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:44 pm

    ^^ you can't see personnel and MANPADS when flying over cities, it's easy in the open desert though.

    the US is now flying Apaches in Anbar from Baghdad airport, wonder what protection they have against Strela/Igla, though quite sure they operate it at night to make it hard for the terrorists.

    http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123346

    WASHINGTON, Oct. 5, 2014 – U.S. military forces continued to attack ISIL terrorists in Syria yesterday and today, using fighter aircraft to conduct three airstrikes.
    Separately, in Iraq U.S. military forces used helicopters and attack, bomber, and fighter aircraft to conduct six airstrikes against ISIL in Iraq.
    In Syria, one strike northwest of Al Mayadin destroyed an ISIL bulldozer, two ISIL tanks and destroyed another ISIL vehicle. Two strikes northwest of Ar Raqqah struck a large ISIL unit and destroyed six ISIL firing positions. To conduct these strikes, the U.S. employed fighter aircraft deployed to the U.S. Central Command area of operations. All aircraft departed the strike areas safely.
    In Iraq, four strikes northeast of Fallujah struck two mortar teams, a large ISIL unit and two small ISIL units. One strike southeast of Hit destroyed two ISIL Humvees. One strike northeast of Sinjar destroyed an ISIL Humvee. To conduct these strikes, the U.S. employed helicopters and attack, bomber, fighter aircraft deployed to the U.S. Central Command area of operations. All aircraft departed the strike areas safely.
    The U.S. strikes were conducted as part of President Barack Obama's comprehensive strategy to degrade and destroy ISIL. The destruction and degradation of ISIL targets in Syria and Iraq further limits the terrorist group's ability to lead, control, project power and conduct operations.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:04 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:^^ you can't see personnel and MANPADS when flying over cities, it's easy in the open desert though.

    the US is now flying Apaches in Anbar from Baghdad airport, wonder what protection they have against Strela/Igla, though quite sure they operate it at night to make it hard for the terrorists.

    http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123346

    WASHINGTON, Oct. 5, 2014 – U.S. military forces continued to attack ISIL terrorists in Syria yesterday and today, using fighter aircraft to conduct three airstrikes.
    Separately, in Iraq U.S. military forces used helicopters and attack, bomber, and fighter aircraft to conduct six airstrikes against ISIL in Iraq.
    In Syria, one strike northwest of Al Mayadin destroyed an ISIL bulldozer, two ISIL tanks and destroyed another ISIL vehicle. Two strikes northwest of Ar Raqqah struck a large ISIL unit and destroyed six ISIL firing positions. To conduct these strikes, the U.S. employed fighter aircraft deployed to the U.S. Central Command area of operations. All aircraft departed the strike areas safely.
    In Iraq, four strikes northeast of Fallujah struck two mortar teams, a large ISIL unit and two small ISIL units. One strike southeast of Hit destroyed two ISIL Humvees. One strike northeast of Sinjar destroyed an ISIL Humvee. To conduct these strikes, the U.S. employed helicopters and attack, bomber, fighter aircraft deployed to the U.S. Central Command area of operations. All aircraft departed the strike areas safely.
    The U.S. strikes were conducted as part of President Barack Obama's comprehensive strategy to degrade and destroy ISIL. The destruction and degradation of ISIL targets in Syria and Iraq further limits the terrorist group's ability to lead, control, project power and conduct operations.

    The funny thing about US and their Apaches is they are all without MAWS which are necessary to track incoming MANPADS, there are only around 90 AMASE pods of which only a low percentage have DIRCMs and only 4 out of 16 RF squadrons have MAW sensors installed via AMASE pods, that leaves them to usually fly missions at night like you said.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:23 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    iraqidabab wrote:^^ you can't see personnel and MANPADS when flying over cities, it's easy in the open desert though.

    the US is now flying Apaches in Anbar from Baghdad airport, wonder what protection they have against Strela/Igla, though quite sure they operate it at night to make it hard for the terrorists.

    http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123346

    WASHINGTON, Oct. 5, 2014 – U.S. military forces continued to attack ISIL terrorists in Syria yesterday and today, using fighter aircraft to conduct three airstrikes.
    Separately, in Iraq U.S. military forces used helicopters and attack, bomber, and fighter aircraft to conduct six airstrikes against ISIL in Iraq.
    In Syria, one strike northwest of Al Mayadin destroyed an ISIL bulldozer, two ISIL tanks and destroyed another ISIL vehicle. Two strikes northwest of Ar Raqqah struck a large ISIL unit and destroyed six ISIL firing positions. To conduct these strikes, the U.S. employed fighter aircraft deployed to the U.S. Central Command area of operations. All aircraft departed the strike areas safely.
    In Iraq, four strikes northeast of Fallujah struck two mortar teams, a large ISIL unit and two small ISIL units. One strike southeast of Hit destroyed two ISIL Humvees. One strike northeast of Sinjar destroyed an ISIL Humvee. To conduct these strikes, the U.S. employed helicopters and attack, bomber, fighter aircraft deployed to the U.S. Central Command area of operations. All aircraft departed the strike areas safely.
    The U.S. strikes were conducted as part of President Barack Obama's comprehensive strategy to degrade and destroy ISIL. The destruction and degradation of ISIL targets in Syria and Iraq further limits the terrorist group's ability to lead, control, project power and conduct operations.

    The funny thing about US and their Apaches is they are all without MAWS which are necessary to track incoming MANPADS, there are only around 90 AMASE pods of which only a low percentage have DIRCMs and only 4 out of 16 RF squadrons have MAW sensors installed via AMASE pods, that leaves them to usually fly missions at night like you said.

    Lets not even talk about the the windows on the Apache aren't even rated to stop 7.62 x 39 mm AKM fire!
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Lets not even talk about the the windows on the Apache aren't even rated to stop 7.62 x 39 mm AKM fire!

    You can push them in with your thumb or pierce them with screw driver, same like with every other western helicopter.
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    Post  mutantsushi on Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:54 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:I doubt it's RPG, hitting a helicopter with that is extremely hard, in no video ( and there are many ) has the MI-35 been seen hovering, it has been on the move and in high altitude in every video. That leaves Igla and Strela, ISIS has captured many from Syria.
    i know i did read that somewhere, but am unsure of source,
    so please take it with a grain of salt, i can't truly be sure one way or another...

    indeed, even US helis are not much better, but DIRCMs should be fitted on ALL craft that are likely to see service in active war zone, IMHO...
    (e.g. Austria may not need it, but certainly Iraq where they are seeing service immediately after delivery should have them)
    with DIRCM, mi-28 and -35 are certainly MORE protected than standard US models, which is exactly what is needed IMHO.
    NV/IR goggles/turrets to enable night operations is likewise just as needed, but IMHO abandoning day time operations is not advisable,
    and since IR tech is available, is not necessary to protect equipment and crews...

    it is amusing to see US-centric sites perplexed at how US has offered apache to iraq, but iraq has declined in favor of mi-28 and -35...
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    Post  iraqidabab on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:54 am

    This Iraqi MI-17.. so they decide to put MAWS on a MI-17 while they don't on combat helos MI-35 and MI-28.

    Just heard, this is one of the 22 Mi-171Es bought thru US foreign military sales vice Iraqi direct purchase. Used by the 15th Special Operations Squadron for direct support of ISOF. Congress had major problems with that buy - using US FMS to buy from Russia.

    So unfortunately the US had the brain to buy MAWS, Iraqi ministry of defense doesn't.


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    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:34 am

    iraqidabab wrote:

    This Iraqi MI-17.. so they decide to put MAWS on a MI-17 while they don't on combat helos MI-35 and MI-28 WTH!!!!!!!! HOW STUPID

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    Congrats the Mi-17V5 are right now better suited for combat then Attack Helicopters just because iraqis decided not to buy an integrated MAWS to their Attack Helicopters, now they have to compensate it either through very good mission planing and intel or getting asses kicked from some or other iraqi general or any responsible to actually buy and fit them with MAWS before they lose more aircrafts that are worth dozens of millions and human lifes.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:46 am

    Of course it could be that these Hips could be set up to engage any incoming IR guided missile and therefore be used to operate with the Mi-35 as a protector...

    I know some jamming pods can be used to protect a flight air craft rather than just the aircraft it is attached to.
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    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:48 pm

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6f1dc7c6438c4323a75cd5b8e49d0335/islamic-state-group-downs-another-iraqi-helicopter


    well yesterday an IA-407 was shot down over Baiji (same place where the Mi35M was lost last week).

    The IA-407 (like Iraq's Mi17, EC-635, UH-1, Cessna 208, KingAir-350, C130J-30) is equipped with MAWS.

    In fact the Mi35M and Mi28NE not having MAWS was definitely a short term issue that they should have solved, but I guess the desperation to get them into battle meant they delayed and delayed the installations... In the meantime the Mi35M always flew in a "tag team" with an IA-407 (Iraq has 28 IA-407s - same number as Mi35M ordered), but I dont think the MAWS of the IA-407 would be able to warn the MI35M of SAMs unless the IA-407 itself is targetted.


    This double shootdown in this one week confirms that IS now have a powerful air defence capability that they can use to target Iraqi aircraft at low altitude even ones with modern MAWS.
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    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:22 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6f1dc7c6438c4323a75cd5b8e49d0335/islamic-state-group-downs-another-iraqi-helicopter


    well yesterday an IA-407 was shot down over Baiji (same place where the Mi35M was lost last week).

    The IA-407 (like Iraq's Mi17, EC-635, UH-1, Cessna 208, KingAir-350, C130J-30) is equipped with MAWS.

    In fact the Mi35M and Mi28NE not having MAWS was definitely a short term issue that they should have solved, but I guess the desperation to get them into battle meant they delayed and delayed the installations... In the meantime the Mi35M always flew in a "tag team" with an IA-407 (Iraq has 28 IA-407s - same number as Mi35M ordered), but I dont think the MAWS of the IA-407 would be able to warn the MI35M of SAMs unless the IA-407 itself is targetted.


    This double shootdown in this one week confirms that IS now have a powerful air defence capability that they can use to target Iraqi aircraft at low altitude even ones with modern MAWS.

    MAWS are just sensors to warn the crew from incoming missiles, there are at least two problems that have to be handled or cleared.
    First would be the MAWS need to integrated into an automated TWCMS (Threat Warning & Counter Measure System), MANPADS fly with Mach 2+ and that leaves almost no reaction time to the crew to manually dispence flares, not to mention set up the flare dispencing sequence, therefore an automated TWCMS is needed.
    Second problem would be to know what kind of MANPADS they are using, if the incident with the IA-407 happened despite they properly used flares with high probability of interception dispencing sequences then it would be necessary to equip the expensive machines like Mi-35/28 with DIRCMs, new machines will cost more than half million for a defensive suite per bird and they desperatley need russian vitebsk system (automated TWICMS).
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    Post  medo on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:00 pm

    To be honest MAWS wouldn't change much for Mi-35M. It already have chaff and flare dispenser and IR jammer, so even if Mi-35M have MAWS, it will only turn on IR jammer and launch flares, what Mi-35 already use in combat mission. problem could be, if Mi-35 is too long in combat area and run out of flares. And than missile could easily lock and hit helicopter.
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    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:58 pm

    medo wrote:To be honest MAWS wouldn't change much for Mi-35M. It already have chaff and flare dispenser and IR jammer, so even if Mi-35M have MAWS, it will only turn on IR jammer and launch flares, what Mi-35 already use in combat mission. problem could be, if Mi-35 is too long in combat area and run out of flares. And than missile could easily lock and hit helicopter.

    The problem is you need MAWS even to know that there are any SAM/MANPADS that are heading towards you, if you don't know that you will not be able to flare.

    And when US is supplying their agents ISIS with newer MANPADS with IIR seekers the IRCM is useless which was proven in chechnya.

    The minimum they need is MAWS and automated TWCMS, that is absolute basic for surviving enemy zone with SAM/MANPADS.
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    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:44 pm

    The mi35m is now confirmed to have been downed by a chinese fn-6 manpads probably from the "free Syrian army" that got it supplied by Qatar...

    All the Iraqi helos (except mi35m/mi28ne) do indeed have automatic flare dispersal system with the maws. Didn't help every time though.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:52 am

    sheytanelkebir wrote:The mi35m is now confirmed to have been downed by a chinese fn-6 manpads probably from the "free Syrian army" that got it supplied by Qatar...

    All the Iraqi helos (except mi35m/mi28ne) do indeed have automatic flare dispersal system with the maws. Didn't help every time though.

    Nothing is 100% secure but having the highest probability of interception of such threats is worth since you lose human lifes up to 10 not to mention that all of those people were trained soldiers, so invested money and experience and the dozen of millions for helicopter itself.

    It's like driving derby races but to greedy not to equip your car with seatbelt, roll cage and other protective equipment to safe your life.
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    Post  NationalRus on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:19 pm

    saw it already,so what, why do we need to do somthing about it, it was a common station with syria, was at the end abandoned, or is it the "big surprise" that countrys spy on each other Rolling Eyes
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    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:19 pm

    The TOS-1A in training in Iraq.

    Question is... the Iraqi MOD said that the Iraqi TOS-1A comes on a T90 chassis and not a T72 Chassis. And that does indeed look like a T90 chassis to me. Confirmation would be appreciated.

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    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:08 pm

    First blood for the Mi28NE in Iraq.

    supporting an operation of the 11th infantry division north of Baghdad that resulted in the destruction of an IS assault and breaking the siege on the 1st battalion of the Iraqi Army.

    At 1.43

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    Post  iraqidabab on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:54 pm

    Looks more like US Apache then MI-28
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    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:12 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:Looks more like US Apache then MI-28

    Hard to tell.
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    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:16 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    iraqidabab wrote:Looks more like US Apache then MI-28

    Hard to tell.
    Yep, but its wide tail is reminiscent of the Apache...
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    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:41 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    iraqidabab wrote:Looks more like US Apache then MI-28

    Hard to tell.
    Yep, but its wide tail is reminiscent of the Apache...

    Iraq would be wise to equip their Mi-28/35's first with President-S or at least equip them with MAWS integrated to automatic flare dispensing before risking more helicopters and soldiers and not to rush into battle.
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    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:47 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    iraqidabab wrote:Looks more like US Apache then MI-28

    Hard to tell.
    Yep, but its wide tail is reminiscent of the Apache...

    Iraq would be wise to equip their Mi-28/35's first with President-S or at least equip them with MAWS integrated to automatic flare dispensing before risking more helicopters and soldiers and not to rush into battle.
    Very (wise)... Though they seem to avoid it, probably due to a lack of funds or something like that. All important Iraqi helicopters should be using MAWS and other advanced protection systems, as even the most maneuverable helicopter is a siting duck when it begins to hover.

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