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    Serbia AD at Kossovo war

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    Слободан човек

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Слободан човек on Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:25 am

    ^^ And this is how a person with lower superiority complex looks like.


    B-2a was 100% shot down. It was hit with both missiles fired from the S-125M Neva. Since Neva missiles have 60% probability hit, 2 missiles are always fired on one target. Being such a huge target, with low manoeuvrability, both of the missiles hit.
    You can keep convincing yourself otherwise all day, but it won't change the fact.

    Nowhere in this document does anyone ask for a medal, only for a leave as a reward (for crew to rest for a few days, with their families). Either your knowledge of Serbian is bad (maybe you are not Serbian), or you are the one lying, trying to trick non-Serbian speakers.

    Zoltan Dani "lied" about modifications to confuse Americans. American military officers have been in Serbia multiple times after 2001. asking for our army to tell them how did they spot B-2a and F-117a, how did they target them, how did they shot them down. Of course, our army did not give them correct information.
    Also, all other officers that shot down B-2a and F-117a where afraid of being sent to the Hague tribunal, so they told Dani to claim that he and only he was responsible for this, because he is Hungarian, and they will not accuse him in the Hague. later some of them changed their mind, and started accusing Dani of lying...

    I don't know it the attack on the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt is true or not, but the fact is that at one point that carrier did enter Adriatic sea near the Italian southern cost, witch was well within range of our aircraft.

    Attacks of our military aviation on the airports near Tirana in Albania and near Tuzla in Bosnia and Herzegovina, are indeed  true. 100%.

    So is the attack on the improvised heliport in between Serbia, Albania and Macedonia, where our ground forces had destroyed Chinook, Apache and a fuel tanker truck with Zolja anti-tank weapons. 1 Macedonian soldier, who was guarding this, was killed with a military crossbow.

    All NATO losses are still classified. But one day, some new Government (of Serbia) will declassified them.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:52 am

    B-2a was 100% shot down. It was hit with both missiles fired from the S-125M Neva. Since Neva missiles have 60% probability hit, 2 missiles are always fired on one target. Being such a huge target, with low manoeuvrability, both of the missiles hit.
    You can keep convincing yourself otherwise all day, but it won't change the fact.

    That is not how hit probability works...

    Firing two missiles that use the same guidance channel means if one missile is defeated there is a very large likelyhood that both missiles will be defeated...

    It is also a forum rule that your first post should be an introduction in the rules and introductions section.

    BTW my personal opinion is that it is very unlikely that a B-2 was shot down in Europe.

    Why would they cover up the loss of a B-2 yet go public with the loss of an F-117?


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    Слободан човек

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Слободан човек on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:39 pm

    It is exactly how Neva works. Second missile is fired a few seconds after the first one.

    Why would NATO hide the loss of B-2? Why would it hide losses in all wars? It hides everything it can hide. They don't want to show how they got humiliated.
    We have material evidence of F-117a shot down, but no material evidence for B-2a. Material evidence is the plane wreckage. F-117a crashed in our territory, B-2a crashed in Croatia.
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    George1

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:46 pm

    i think the number of B-2s is too small for USA to hide any loss of them


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    Слободан човек

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Слободан човек on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:48 pm

    It is extremely easy to hide it from public, since public has no access to them.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:16 pm

    Слободан човек wrote:^^ And this is how a person with lower superiority complex looks like.


    B-2a was 100% shot down. It was hit with both missiles fired from the S-125M Neva. Since Neva missiles have 60% probability hit, 2 missiles are always fired on one target. Being such a huge target, with low manoeuvrability, both of the missiles hit.
    You can keep convincing yourself otherwise all day, but it won't change the fact.

    Nowhere in this document does anyone ask for a medal, only for a leave as a reward (for crew to rest for a few days, with their families). Either your knowledge of Serbian is bad (maybe you are not Serbian), or you are the one lying, trying to trick non-Serbian speakers.

    Zoltan Dani "lied" about modifications to confuse Americans. American military officers have been in Serbia multiple times after 2001. asking for our army to tell them how did they spot B-2a and F-117a, how did they target them, how did they shot them down. Of course, our army did not give them correct information.
    Also, all other officers that shot down B-2a and F-117a where afraid of being sent to the Hague tribunal, so they told Dani to claim that he and only he was responsible for this, because he is Hungarian, and they will not accuse him in the Hague. later some of them changed their mind, and started accusing Dani of lying...

    I don't know it the attack on the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt is true or not, but the fact is that at one point that carrier did enter Adriatic sea near the Italian southern cost, witch was well within range of our aircraft.

    Attacks of our military aviation on the airports near Tirana in Albania and near Tuzla in Bosnia and Herzegovina, are indeed  true. 100%.

    So is the attack on the improvised heliport in between Serbia, Albania and Macedonia, where our ground forces had destroyed Chinook, Apache and a fuel tanker truck with Zolja anti-tank weapons. 1 Macedonian soldier, who was guarding this, was killed with a military crossbow.

    All NATO losses are still classified. But one day, some new Government (of Serbia) will declassified them.

    No, actually this is how person that served in 250th looks like, 240th Air Defense Self Propelled Missile Battalion.

    Its not true that 2 missiles are always launched at the target either, that is sort of common practice but not the rule, it greatly depends on the target, its speed and flight profile.

    I repeat, that document proves nothing whatosoever, its reward recommendation for the crew members, story ends there, he could have wrote he shot Deathstar in there, this kind of documents is extremly common. Furthermore, in the unit Dani was famous for being slacked and extremly undisciplined, sleeping during his shifts, leaving position at random moments leaving conscripts alone on the system, taking unit equipment home... and then he spent decade claiming about unexisting modifications and similar. Zoltan is not what you think, period.

    When its about your claim how he did it to "trick" someone, that is not true either, whole rest of the crew, engineers from VTI, even his commanding officers always claimed that is not true, how comes only he got on that bright idea to "trick" Americans. They are not imbeciles, they were interested simply in guidance method used, range from which target was acquired etc.. and not only that, they were interested in operations in general during whole war so they could check their own overall performance.

    Crews of 250th were NEVER even remotely in danger to be sent to Hague, that is absolute pile of crap as there are no grounds for something like that, on top of everything pilot even survived.

    And no, our Air Force never flew to Albania, Croatia, Bosnia or anywhere, no airstrikes were performed whatsoever, Rinas, Tuzla-Dubrave were never even touched, and that was more than once conirmed by pilots of 241st fighter-bomber wing that was stationed on Ladjevci airbase from which allegedly two of the above mentioned strikes originated. Some bombing runs truly were performed by J22s on Kosovo but very few due to great risks for both crews and machines. I have family that still lives in Tuzla and none of them ever heard of the attack on Tuzla airfield attack and their home is less than 500m from the tarmac.

    Americans did lose two AH-64 but both due to malfunctions they suffered during training flights, they never crossed into our teritory, even tho couple of times they were in visual range of infantry.

    Attack on carrier group with J22 which has RCS of a barn with AGM-65B is plausible like me sinking it from a wodden raft with slingshot after two bottles of cheapest vodka.





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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Слободан човек on Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:41 pm

    I don't discuss with shills.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:52 pm

    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.

    Dude, B-2 most definitely was not shot down.

    They fly at very high altitudes and if our AD had missiles capable of reaching targets that far up we would not be discussing this because there would have been no war to begin with.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:16 pm

    http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/Northrop-Grumman-B-2A/1283296

    Photo of "Spirit of Missouri" 88-0329, photo taken in 2007.

    Well and alive. And no, they couldnt just "build another one", as company partially destroyed sensitive tooling for it to prevent industrial espionage. USAF is relying on stocked up spares and are normally provided with non-sensitive equipment from the suppliers as for any other platform.



    One B2 was lost, but in peacetime takeoff accident:



    Another was badly damaged but after major overhauls that lasted almost 3 years it was returned to the service, it was Spirit of Washington.

    And they cant just fkn hide them, they have serial numbers, names and despite looking alike they all have slight differences due to maintenance work performed on them.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:24 pm

    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.

    Shill definition:

    "A person engaged in covert advertising. The shill attempts to spread buzz by personally endorsing the product in public forums with the pretense of sincerity, when in fact he is being paid for his services."

    So i am paid by US DoD, USAF and Northrop Grumman to praise their products and services? I am one lucky and rich bastard.


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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:26 pm

    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.
    Checkmate Militarov. He gotcha. Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:44 am

    So i am paid by US DoD, USAF and Northrop Grumman to praise their products and services? I am one lucky and rich bastard.

    That image is supposed to be representative I assume Militarov as I think we both know if that was actually you on a pile of gold bars you would be naked... Razz

    (And thank you for not posting that image... Smile )


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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:10 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.

    Dude, B-2 most definitely was not shot down.

    They fly at very high altitudes and if our AD had missiles capable of reaching targets that far up we would not be discussing this because there would have been no war to begin with.

    Neva could reach them actually in ideal situation even during approach, however situation is never ideal and gap for detection and guidance is tiny, IF we got lucky and detected it. Furthermore after launch the site would get bombed, as they were anyways. Barely any Nevas survived the war, actually only those that did not engage survived.

    What we could not reach was U2, which for we tried reintroducing one battery of S75, which was not completed as it was bombed half way though being prepared for service.

    Major issue was that we could alot easier detect stealthy targets with recon radars P15, P12, P18.. but our guidance radars couldnt. So it was like "we know you are there, but we cant do anything about it".
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:53 am

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.

    Dude, B-2 most definitely was not shot down.

    They fly at very high altitudes and if our AD had missiles capable of reaching targets that far up we would not be discussing this because there would have been no war to begin with.

    Neva could reach them actually in ideal situation even during approach, however situation is never ideal and gap for detection and guidance is tiny, IF we got lucky and detected it. Furthermore after launch the site would get bombed, as they were anyways. Barely any Nevas survived the war, actually only those that did not engage survived.

    What we could not reach was U2, which for we tried reintroducing one battery of S75, which was not completed as it was bombed half way though being prepared for service.

    Major issue was that we could alot easier detect stealthy targets with recon radars P15, P12, P18.. but our guidance radars couldnt. So it was like "we know you are there, but we cant do anything about it".

    So how did NATO identify positions so fast after launches?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:13 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.

    Dude, B-2 most definitely was not shot down.

    They fly at very high altitudes and if our AD had missiles capable of reaching targets that far up we would not be discussing this because there would have been no war to begin with.

    Neva could reach them actually in ideal situation even during approach, however situation is never ideal and gap for detection and guidance is tiny, IF we got lucky and detected it. Furthermore after launch the site would get bombed, as they were anyways. Barely any Nevas survived the war, actually only those that did not engage survived.

    What we could not reach was U2, which for we tried reintroducing one battery of S75, which was not completed as it was bombed half way though being prepared for service.

    Major issue was that we could alot easier detect stealthy targets with recon radars P15, P12, P18.. but our guidance radars couldnt. So it was like "we know you are there, but we cant do anything about it".

    So how did NATO identify positions so fast after launches?

    Well, first of all Nevas are semi-fixed, so after launch it takes time to leave position, even if you form the column to leave chances are they will detect you on the move and PGM the shit out of you as they know your aproximate positions. They almost always had strike aircraft ready in the air of some of the neighbouring countries like Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, Hungary.

    Its simply very hard to hide Neva, as sites are in particular shape and positioning with launchers in circle...

    Enemy total air dominance and free use of all possible means of recon did not help either.

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:09 pm

    Do you know if any of the Nevas were used in what might be called 'ambush' mode, luring in a strike to hit?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:42 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Do you know if any of the Nevas were used in what might be called 'ambush' mode, luring in a strike to hit?

    After major initial loses during first 2 weeksof fixed installations Nevas werent all that much active from what i am aware. They were deployed and ready, often moved around during night to increase survivability rate but not all that many launches were performed due to justified fear of manpower loss without significant success.

    Some were deployed around industrial centers in hope in hope to use them as deterrance aganist airstrikes but all in vain. Generally speaking Kub performed alot better, at least in terms of survivability but they did not hit anything except one very likely friendly fire incident (and yet they launched quite a few missiles). Main reason for failure was apparently semi-active terminal guidance which was easily jammed, at least i was told so.

    If i recall right NATO detected some 700 missile launches in total for 78 days.


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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:09 am

    Militarov wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Do you know if any of the Nevas were used in what might be called 'ambush' mode, luring in a strike to hit?

    After major initial loses during first 2 weeksof fixed installations Nevas werent all that much active from what i am aware. They were deployed and ready, often moved around during night to increase survivability rate but not all that many launches were performed due to justified fear of manpower loss without significant success.

    Some were deployed around industrial centers in hope in hope to use them as deterrance aganist airstrikes but all in vain. Generally speaking Kub performed alot better, at least in terms of survivability but they did not hit anything except one very likely friendly fire incident (and yet they launched quite a few missiles). Main reason for failure was apparently semi-active terminal guidance which was easily jammed, at least i was told so.

    If i recall right NATO detected some 700 missile launches in total for 78 days.

    Thanks.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:41 am

    Militarov I appreciate the info I have a follow up question you're quite experienced with AD especially since you guys faced off against NATO. Could they have enjoyed the same success they had in Serbia if they were to face against a more modern AD network?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:31 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:Militarov I appreciate the info I have a follow up question you're quite experienced with AD especially since you guys faced off against NATO. Could they have enjoyed the same success they had in Serbia if they were to face against a more modern AD network?

    Well i can only guess, but if we had same numbers of modern equipment at that moment we would probably manage alot more than we did with our even at that time fairly vintage machines, however i presume we would have alot more loses too...in terms of manpower at least. They would eventually via attrition disable our AD, probably losing quite a few aircraft more, but take in count they had resources of all major European NATO members and all the others were used as bases.

    If we had lets say S-300PMU1 instead of Neva, Buk-M1s instead of Kub, Strela-M2s instead of Strela-1 and Igla instead of Strela-2M and all that hooked up on better IADS, then we would probably do alot more than we did. Also that would require new radars as mainstray were P-16, P-12, P-18 and P-40 which even then were ancient, something like Nebo SVU for a start.

    Iraqis were better equiped than us in both quality and quantity in 2003., yet they managed very little themself too.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:38 am

    Militarov wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:Militarov I appreciate the info I have a follow up question you're quite experienced with AD especially since you guys faced off against NATO. Could they have enjoyed the same success they had in Serbia if they were to face against a more modern AD network?

    Well i can only guess, but if we had same numbers of modern equipment at that moment we would probably manage alot more than we did with our even at that time fairly vintage machines, however i presume we would have alot more loses too...in terms of manpower at least. They would eventually via attrition disable our AD, probably losing quite a few aircraft more, but take in count they had resources of all major European NATO members and all the others were used as bases.

    If we had lets say S-300PMU1 instead of Neva, Buk-M1s instead of Kub, Strela-M2s instead of Strela-1 and Igla instead of Strela-2M and all that hooked up on better IADS, then we would probably do alot more than we did. Also that would require new radars as mainstray were P-16, P-12, P-18 and P-40 which even then were ancient, something like Nebo SVU for a start.

    Iraqis were better equiped than us in both quality and quantity in 2003., yet they managed very little themself too.

    Yes, if i recall that had more to do with most of there AD systems being located around the Iran-Iraq area and there IAD network being French and compromised, also i doubt they followed Soviet AD doctrine.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:30 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:Militarov I appreciate the info I have a follow up question you're quite experienced with AD especially since you guys faced off against NATO. Could they have enjoyed the same success they had in Serbia if they were to face against a more modern AD network?

    Well i can only guess, but if we had same numbers of modern equipment at that moment we would probably manage alot more than we did with our even at that time fairly vintage machines, however i presume we would have alot more loses too...in terms of manpower at least. They would eventually via attrition disable our AD, probably losing quite a few aircraft more, but take in count they had resources of all major European NATO members and all the others were used as bases.

    If we had lets say S-300PMU1 instead of Neva, Buk-M1s instead of Kub, Strela-M2s instead of Strela-1 and Igla instead of Strela-2M and all that hooked up on better IADS, then we would probably do alot more than we did. Also that would require new radars as mainstray were P-16, P-12, P-18 and P-40 which even then were ancient, something like Nebo SVU for a start.

    Iraqis were better equiped than us in both quality and quantity in 2003., yet they managed very little themself too.

    Yes, if i recall that had more to do with most of there AD systems being located around the Iran-Iraq area and there IAD network being French and compromised, also i doubt they followed Soviet AD doctrine.

    Not only that, French system was made to track and process and deal with up to 50 targets, NATO had quite a few more, they literally stressed whole system with their numbers. And even more important, Serbs had forests, mountains, tunnels... we could run, hide, decoy, mask... Iraq on other hand is 90% flat land where you cant hide anything unless you dig a hole for it.

    And here you can see reason why Nevas had... extremly short lifespan on examples, as this is "by the book" how SA-3 site looks like (basically same goes for SA-2 and SA-5):










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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:58 pm

    Yes terrain did help Serbia out immensely. So Militarov based on Serbia's experiences with NATO operations, no AD network can hold against NATO's air-fleet?

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Слободан човек on Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:07 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Слободан човек wrote:I don't discuss with shills.

    Dude, B-2 most definitely was not shot down.

    They fly at very high altitudes and if our AD had missiles capable of reaching targets that far up we would not be discussing this because there would have been no war to begin with.

    Neva could reach them actually in ideal situation even during approach, however situation is never ideal and gap for detection and guidance is tiny, IF we got lucky and detected it. Furthermore after launch the site would get bombed, as they were anyways. Barely any Nevas survived the war, actually only those that did not engage survived.

    What we could not reach was U2, which for we tried reintroducing one battery of S75, which was not completed as it was bombed half way though being prepared for service.

    Major issue was that we could alot easier detect stealthy targets with recon radars P15, P12, P18.. but our guidance radars couldnt. So it was like "we know you are there, but we cant do anything about it".

    So how did NATO identify positions so fast after launches?

    From the moment of detecting our radar to the moment of actual bombing of the radar position, it took NATO at least 12 hours. So our army knew that they had to change positions every 12 hours (or ideally less).

    Слободан човек

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    Re: Serbia AD at Kossovo war

    Post  Слободан човек on Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:11 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:Yes terrain did help Serbia out immensely. So Militarov based on Serbia's experiences with NATO operations, no AD network can hold against NATO's air-fleet?

    We hold up pretty well. VOJIN operated throughout the war.

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