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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

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    Svyatoslavich
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:07 am

    Karl Haushofer wrote:And when Donetsk and Lugansk are leveled off the war will also end. Donbass will be an empty destroyed space, emptied from its "subhuman" population and available for "true Ukrainian patriots" to resettle.
    I don't think this plan would work. Considering the very bad demographic situation of Ukraine, the loss of million of people from Donbass and Lugansk would mean Ukraine would be a dead country. There are not that many "patriots" to resettle, and they are not exactly having much children to regain population fast.
    In the longer run, it would be good for Russia, which needs population increase, and best yet if they are ethnically and culturally the same, as people from East Ukraine are.

    Boreas
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Boreas on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:25 am

    Khepesh wrote:Before the fighting there were three water pumping stations supplying Lugansk, two have long been destroyed by ukrops. This evening the electricity substation supplying power to the third and last water pumping station has been destroyed by ukrops with no possibility of repair while fighting continues. Lugansk now has stored water for only two days. This may change all equations....

    I think that Russia has huge deficit on the field of informational war. There should be immediate response to every single atrocity against civilians committed by Kiev regime. Remember the ruthless medialisation and exploitation of Volnovakha tragedy? That's what US advisers told them. It's actually marketing. "I don't buy that" is "I don't believe that". And US has a long history of selling everything you can imagine. You can't win, if you're not willing to go further than your enemy. Of course all of the western media are under command of US, nobody from the west public is reachable by Russian media, but remember laser projections on building in Kiev and US embassy in Moskow? Supposed projection of Victory parade on the wall of White house? Guerrilla advertisement. It needs to be done on realy large scale, but in London, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Lisbon, Berlin, Brussels, on the most public places possible, just to catch its place in news, to catch the attention of the public and start debate.
    "RIGHT NOW ARE LUGANSK CHILDREN DYING FROM THIRST! POROSHENKO ORDERED THEIR DEATH!"
    Immediately  it's in every newspaper, news agencies sending their reporters to Lugansk to investigate. Is it true? Debate is started, attention is caught. I know it's primitive and looks desperate, but that's what desperate people do, it's the sign of the authenticity actually.
    Maybe it's stupid but I don't care how it sounds, it's just painful to watch innocent people suffer.

    Erk
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Erk on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:34 am

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    whir wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:What's the point of continuing this war? It's obvious that Russia is not going to help and the ukrops are able to make the living of Donbass people a hell.
    Define "help".
    Total military defeat of Kiev so that they are not able to continue the war.


    That would be a totally stupid thing for Russia to do. If you don't know why by now, then you haven't been reading the other posters in this thread. It's been explained many times. Russia invading Ukraine is exactly what Washington are trying to achieve with this current war.




    Flagship Victory
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Flagship Victory on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:53 am

    What's interesting is that back a couple of months ago if Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery Putin would get up at 3 in the morning and complain about it. These days it's all business as usual and Putin does not say anything about it when Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery. By now, I doubt Russia would complain if the US gives nukes to Ukraine and Maidan drops a nuke on Donetsk. What would Putin say? Oh, that's bad behavior from Russia's brother nation?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:58 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:What's interesting is that back a couple of months ago if Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery Putin would get up at 3 in the morning and complain about it. These days it's all business as usual and Putin does not say anything about it when Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery. By now, I doubt Russia would complain if the US gives nukes to Ukraine and Maidan drops a nuke on Donetsk. What would Putin say? Oh, that's bad behavior from Russia's brother nation?

    I read Russian news quite often, I highly doubt you do, as I have noticed that when you mentioned countless times that they don't report it, then I head on over to Tass news agency and see that they have reported it and complained about it, gives me full indication that you are lying.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Flagship Victory on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:59 am

    Russia says EU extension of sanction on Russia for 1 year is bad for the partnership between the EU and Russia.

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/agence-france-presse-russia-slams-eu-sanctions-renewal-as-pointless-blackmail-391610.html

    I think the focus now is turning to Crimea. Expect major air and sea blockade by the US navy based in Odessa very soon. This is going to get way uglier before it gets any better. What a Face

    Mike E
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Mike E on Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:15 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:I think the focus now is turning to Crimea. Expect major air and sea blockade by the US navy based in Odessa very soon. This is going to get way uglier before it gets any better. What a Face
    I'd love to see that happen, simply cause Putin has an excuse to move nukes into Crimea.  Twisted Evil

    Can't wait for the Wests' reaction to that as well...especially if they move some more AShM's into the area.

    par far
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  par far on Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:25 am

    The Novorossiyan army should be given the chance to drive these thugs back from shelling. You guys are right Oddesa and Crimea are going to be the next hot spot.

    Erk
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Erk on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:06 am

    par far wrote:The Novorossiyan army should be given the chance to drive these thugs back from shelling. You guys are right Oddesa and Crimea are going to be the next hot spot.

    And who exactly should give them this "chance"?



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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Nikander on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:17 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:What's interesting is that back a couple of months ago if Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery Putin would get up at 3 in the morning and complain about it. These days it's all business as usual and Putin does not say anything about it when Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery. By now, I doubt Russia would complain if the US gives nukes to Ukraine and Maidan drops a nuke on Donetsk. What would Putin say? Oh, that's bad behavior from Russia's brother nation?

    I read Russian news quite often, I highly doubt you do, as I have noticed that when you mentioned countless times that they don't report it, then I head on over to Tass news agency and see that they have reported it and complained about it, gives me full indication that you are lying.

    I said a couple of weeks ago that this Flagship guy is a paid troll who's lying constantly and I stand by that. That little blurb about Assad is telling. He's not the only one also. Everyone who is spreading defeatism for no reason, saying that Putin is a traitor or that Donetsk and Lugansk republics should quit and any other crazy ideas is not pro-Russian. He is just pretending to be to turn people against the government.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:38 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:

    I think the focus now is turning to Crimea. Expect major air and sea blockade by the US navy based in Odessa very soon. This is going to get way uglier before it gets any better. What a Face


    You are watching to many Hollywood movies dude..  US NAVY using its warships to blockade Crimea will mean war.. WAR.. and Russia will have the legitimate right to sink that warship to the
    button of the sea.  lets see if i can explain it with an example..

    Legitimacy and moral high ground. in your actions is The most important thing in any conflict.   This is what made USA retreat from Syria war with its intention to bomb Syria with its Navy.. Obama based his decisions on a faked false flag chemical weapon attack.. that later UN investigators and many other independent ones told it was a staged event and Assad did not did it..

    Why is important Legitimacy and Moral high ground in wars?  Because if you start a war against
    another nation illegally ,without reason ,and you suffer a thousand or so casualties ie.. a warship destroyed.. for attacking another Nation that.. 1)have done nothing against you 2) have not committed any crime .  Then the aggressor in this case USA face the HUGE RISK.. that
    if they experience major disaster ,,ie.. like an Aegis Destroyer sent to the button of the sea.. with thousands of Americans..  Then the Horror and Scandal will be automatic in America.. everyone will be MAD as hell.. but not with RUssia but with Obama.. because he was messing with Russia at Russian Borders and got Killed americans for its blatant illegal ,illegitimate aggression. So things will be seen as US navy attacked Russia for no reason and Russia fought back in self Defense and sink their warship.. and a revolution will trigger in Washingtong DC asking Obama to Resign and move the hell away US warships from Russia coast to stop their
    their attacks..  

    So you have here an interesting scenario..
    1) A US warship destroyed with thousand american killed.
    2) A major civil war in USA cities demanding Obame to resign.
    3) And Russia happy about it.. ie.. that they could justify their attack with their Russian
    citizens because it is the role of any Government to defend its people.

    can you see the difference Legitimacy makes?
    IF obama is stupid and do what you say ,to blockade Crimea ,and an Air Blockade.. really?
    a no fly zone?  Shocked   What Russia will do if they were that stupid as you think they are it will
    completely destroy any NATO warships participating in the Blockade of Crimea without the blind of an eye.

    And the reason is again Legitimacy , Russia have the legitimate right to defend itself.. if Legitimacy was not important ..then Russia will NOT be bothering with any referemdum in
    Crimea.. just take Crimea and thats it.  So for Russian Government and for Europe too..
    Americans doing what you claim they will do .. will be a declaration of war against Russia followed by an Attack.. it will be no different than US marines invading Russia with thousands of soldiers and tanks..  it will be war.. and it will be non sense.. suicide.  Because Americans cannot fight Russia with soldiers invasion. Remember Russia is a nuclear power with thousands of nuclear weapons.

    Why you think Ukraine have no bombed Crimea in 1 year of war ?
    Because they have no capabilities to do it and have no airforce? of course not. they
    could do it.. if really were crazy they will could do it. But they don't do it.. because
    their legitimacy is question.. Crimea hold peacefully a REfemdum  and kiev cannot claim
    effectively Russia aggression there because no one was killed and everyone voluntarily declared
    its independence from Ukraine. and asked to join Russia..

    So i cannot imagine any scenario where americans will declare a naval blockade in Crimea.
    As use their warships to stop any Russian commercial ship entering Crimea..That will be War..
    And if Americans wants war with Russia ,and will want to start one.. it will make more sense
    a preventive nuclear strike on many Russian military bases and Navy ports and Moscow.. that the non sense you suggest.  Of start a war ,for no reason and allow Russia to strike back being
    aware they are at war. and allow them to retaliate in full Force and with the support of their people.  (while americans government having no support)

    So if americans goes a declare a no fly zone in Crimea or a naval blockade with its
    navy as you claim .. It will make things incredibly Easy for Russia. All Russia needs
    to do is do a press conference and explain the world the reasons they are declaring war against USA.. to defend their nation from a hostile illegal attack and sink 1-2 US warships and enjoy the American Revolution overthrowing Obama later..  Cool  So if american Government were that stupid it will be awesome. Because Russia could defeat US ,in the Crimean way.. using very little force. Just sinking a warship and provoking a civil war in America that will destroy the entire nation ,people very angry with their Government will go to the streets demanding Obama to resign.. and this is not counting ,the HUGE RISK.. that obama will face of a major coup
    the Kennedy style , for placing USA in so dangerous situation of an imminent nuclear war with RUssia.

    So relax.. there will be no Naval blockade from Americans on any part of Russia ,that will be war. The only thing Americans can do is a proxy war.. provide lethal weapons to Ukraine
    and encourage them fight the Rebels that Russia support.. and they will claim is self defense.
    So they will have some at very least a debatable level of legitimacy.

    Russia was ready to use nuclear weapons against just 1 Cruiser destroyer warships.. according to Putin words..and make no mistake ,Putin will have not Blinked twice to use nukes if there was confirmed reports of a US attack on Crimea..with Russian soldiers killed.  Why nukes? because
    a single torpedo could do the job..  To get the maximum possible message to United States and
    get the world attention to American Hostile Aggression will not be tolerated by Russia and that will defend itself with everything they have.

    If you ever meditate about the word.. Public Opinion  how EXTREMELY important it is in wars... you will understand why Americans fight by Proxy Russia ,in Syria and Ukraine..
    and you will Understand why Russia retaliate in Ukraine with another proxy war.  They both fully
    understand it will be suicide to start a war without 80% to 90% support of its people. So the fight in Ukraine needs to be done in many fronts.. Military front, Political front ,diplomatic front ,Business front  and Public Opinion front.. that is shaped by the media.

    That said americans cannot start a war on Russia without Public opinion absolute majority support. and fully explaining the possible consequences of it.  What American Government
    could do if they were really desperate to destroy the planet.. they could start a False FLag
    in US cities.. detonate nuclear bombs there.. and later blame Russia for it.

    Fortunately for Putin.. he have been very friendly to Americans always speaking
    that they want good relations with Americans and will continue working with them even if
    relations bad..  So Putin truly understand how important is public opinion in war.. thats why
    he calls Ukraine their brotherly nation and how he call americans friends at time..
    this is not because Putin is naive or an idiot.. he very well will like to bomb poroshenko and Washington DC.. it is a message to the world opinion.. To get the entire world ,including americans on Russian side.. on the need for political dialogue..

    And this is why every American Politician or NATO , whenever they talk about Russia..
    the mention the word "Russia Agression" as many times as possible.. and this is to gain
    Public Opinion.. to get people opinion on their side.. that way if a war start.. or a major
    unintended consequence happens ,that they provoke Russia and Russia strike back.. that the
    people anger and hate is driven against Russia and NOT against them. .  Cool

    Civil wars are more more dangerous ,for a government than a nuclear war. Because if you get
    your army divided ,and half of the nation seeking to overthrow you.. the entire country will go down and without Russia firing a single shot..  and Public Opinion is the most important thing
    in the world for any war or conflict. is what makes the difference in weather you will be alone
    fighting or with vast majority of the world support.

    Remember when Putin told in the Syrian war.. when the US navy was withing  hours to fire
    cruise missiles to to Strike Syria.. Putin told he will not fight Americans , not even in defense of their allies in Syria. That Russia will only seek diplomacy to solve their difference.. Shocked
    Did Putin betrayed Syria? No.. It was neccessary to get World Opinion on Russia Side.. and they did it.. and that was the reason Obama retreated from his frontal direct attack on Syrian Government. Because Obama wanted war against Syria was NOT officially supported by anyone in NATO (other than France).. So the World Public Opinion ,including its NATO allies was against
    them.. Cool    Yet Putin told will never fight in defense of Syria.. but behind the scenes their warships in Syrian Coast were monitoring any single movement of US navy to warn Syria about any missile launch and help with logistics the Syrian Government. Significantly improving
    the Syrian Small Navy and Airforce of all US navy movements , Russia could easily have guided
    the missiles that Syria fire to its final target.. and Americans will have no way to know or proof
    Russia help.. Cool

    Having a diplomatic,friendly and humanitarian helpful stance ,shaking hands with Poroshenko ,kerry obama and nuland smiling..allows Russia to counter all the propaganda of being a monster by the west.that is worse than ISIS and not as bad as Ebola according to obama  lol1

    ,and also help to have the entire world opinion on Russian side ,including americans.
    that will be extremely helpful not only in case Russia is forced to fight in a major world war..(helping Russia to get overwhelming support of Russian people regardless of Economy ) but also to make Russia immune to AMerican staged False flags attacks (as was the malasyan plane) or any other they planning.that could be used to justify their western aggression.

    all said.. in any war that Russia is forced to fight.. they will need to have most of World Opinion on their side..but more than anything Russians opinion, otherwise it Risk ,a major civil war
    in Russia demanding Putin to be overthrow for Russians killed in an unjustified war... and this is exactly the goal of Americans.. They know Ukraine stand not a chance to win against Russia..
    but it doesn't matter.. as long they can damage Russia and Putin image , something that could be the caused by Russian army soldiers killed and economy destroyed etc.. then they win.

    Putin needs to maintain their nation unity at all cost.. no matter what ,if they want to avoid another soviet union style collapse and calls for separation  in Russia.. And this can be obtained by only using their army if it can be 100% fully justified..and fully explained that
    another Nation attacked them and that they need to defend itself.

    Having people support is also extremely important for RUssia ,so people help the Government
    defeat western sanctions and their attempts to isolate Russia.. Any government that lose
    people support is a dead government. and will get civil wars and divided armies and bankrupt
    economy and  cease to exist.. . Russia will defeat Kiev and without any army invasion.. this is what will happen if kiev continues its illegal criminal war for another year.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:12 am

    Apparently one teen 16 year old killed.in Donetsk. why they allowed to stay in Donetsk and
    not sent to Crimea or Russia? No  This is stupid.. no teens or children should be exposed for such war.. they should move to Lugansk closer to Russia or Russia.

    in other and more positive news..

    Weather Conditions of rain hitting Ukraine military operations badly..
    their trenches have been heavily flooded with the raining.





    and Lugansk very creative protest agains OSCE blindess and not reporting kiev warcrimes..
    I don't know what they say ..but the images speak by its own..

    http://cassadtv.cdnvideo.ru/tv/contents/videos/9000/9455/hd.mp4

    this is exactly what Novorosiya citizens needs to do.. Create world opinion exactly to what happens ,that Pressure OSCE.. but also European Union.. to demand the west to stop its blindness and pretending they don't know what happens and stop the genocide of kiev. Notice the protest
    peaceful but very meaningful .. such protest with such glasses needs to be make popular in all
    Europe..  combined with Protest at US embassy in Ukraine.. and then moved to LIthuane embassy and Poland Embassy too..  and Canadian Embassy.. the axis of evil .



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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  chinggis on Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:

    I think the focus now is turning to Crimea. Expect major air and sea blockade by the US navy based in Odessa very soon. This is going to get way uglier before it gets any better. What a Face


    You are watching to many Hollywood movies dude..  US NAVY using its warships to blockade Crimea will mean war.. WAR.. and Russia will have the legitimate right to sink that warship to the
    button of the sea.  lets see if i can explain it with an example..

    Legitimacy and moral high ground. in your actions is The most important thing in any conflict.   This is what made USA retreat from Syria war with its intention to bomb Syria with its Navy.. Obama based his decisions on a faked false flag chemical weapon attack.. that later UN investigators and many other independent ones told it was a staged event and Assad did not did it..

    Why is important Legitimacy and Moral high ground in wars?  Because if you start a war against
    another nation illegally ,without reason ,and you suffer a thousand or so casualties ie.. a warship destroyed.. for attacking another Nation that.. 1)have done nothing against you 2) have not committed any crime .  Then the aggressor in this case USA face the HUGE RISK.. that
    if they experience major disaster ,,ie.. like an Aegis Destroyer sent to the button of the sea.. with thousands of Americans..  Then the Horror and Scandal will be automatic in America.. everyone will be MAD as hell.. but not with RUssia but with Obama.. because he was messing with Russia at Russian Borders and got Killed americans for its blatant illegal ,illegitimate aggression. So things will be seen as US navy attacked Russia for no reason and Russia fought back in self Defense and sink their warship.. and a revolution will trigger in Washingtong DC asking Obama to Resign and move the hell away US warships from Russia coast to stop their
    their attacks..  

    So you have here an interesting scenario..
    1) A US warship destroyed with thousand american killed.
    2) A major civil war in USA cities demanding Obame to resign.
    3) And Russia happy about it.. ie.. that they could justify their attack with their Russian
    citizens because it is the role of any Government to defend its people.

    can you see the difference Legitimacy makes?
    IF obama is stupid and do what you say ,to blockade Crimea ,and an Air Blockade.. really?
    a no fly zone?  Shocked   What Russia will do if they were that stupid as you think they are it will
    completely destroy any NATO warships participating in the Blockade of Crimea without the blind of an eye.

    And the reason is again Legitimacy , Russia have the legitimate right to defend itself.. if Legitimacy was not important ..then Russia will NOT be bothering with any referemdum in
    Crimea.. just take Crimea and thats it.  So for Russian Government and for Europe too..
    Americans doing what you claim they will do .. will be a declaration of war against Russia followed by an Attack.. it will be no different than US marines invading Russia with thousands of soldiers and tanks..  it will be war.. and it will be non sense.. suicide.  Because Americans cannot fight Russia with soldiers invasion. Remember Russia is a nuclear power with thousands of nuclear weapons.

    Why you think Ukraine have no bombed Crimea in 1 year of war ?
    Because they have no capabilities to do it and have no airforce? of course not. they
    could do it.. if really were crazy they will could do it. But they don't do it.. because
    their legitimacy is question.. Crimea hold peacefully a REfemdum  and kiev cannot claim
    effectively Russia aggression there because no one was killed and everyone voluntarily declared
    its independence from Ukraine. and asked to join Russia..

    So i cannot imagine any scenario where americans will declare a naval blockade in Crimea.
    As use their warships to stop any Russian commercial ship entering Crimea..That will be War..
    And if Americans wants war with Russia ,and will want to start one.. it will make more sense
    a preventive nuclear strike on many Russian military bases and Navy ports and Moscow.. that the non sense you suggest.  Of start a war ,for no reason and allow Russia to strike back being
    aware they are at war. and allow them to retaliate in full Force and with the support of their people.  (while americans government having no support)

    So if americans goes a declare a no fly zone in Crimea or a naval blockade with its
    navy as you claim .. It will make things incredibly Easy for Russia. All Russia needs
    to do is do a press conference and explain the world the reasons they are declaring war against USA.. to defend their nation from a hostile illegal attack and sink 1-2 US warships and enjoy the American Revolution overthrowing Obama later..  Cool  So if american Government were that stupid it will be awesome. Because Russia could defeat US ,in the Crimean way.. using very little force. Just sinking a warship and provoking a civil war in America that will destroy the entire nation ,people very angry with their Government will go to the streets demanding Obama to resign.. and this is not counting ,the HUGE RISK.. that obama will face of a major coup
    the Kennedy style , for placing USA in so dangerous situation of an imminent nuclear war with RUssia.

    So relax.. there will be no Naval blockade from Americans on any part of Russia ,that will be war. The only thing Americans can do is a proxy war.. provide lethal weapons to Ukraine
    and encourage them fight the Rebels that Russia support.. and they will claim is self defense.
    So they will have some at very least a debatable level of legitimacy.

    Russia was ready to use nuclear weapons against just 1 Cruiser destroyer warships.. according to Putin words..and make no mistake ,Putin will have not Blinked twice to use nukes if there was confirmed reports of a US attack on Crimea..with Russian soldiers killed.  Why nukes? because
    a single torpedo could do the job..  To get the maximum possible message to United States and
    get the world attention to American Hostile Aggression will not be tolerated by Russia and that will defend itself with everything they have.

    If you ever meditate about the word.. Public Opinion  how EXTREMELY important it is in wars... you will understand why Americans fight by Proxy Russia ,in Syria and Ukraine..
    and you will Understand why Russia retaliate in Ukraine with another proxy war.  They both fully
    understand it will be suicide to start a war without 80% to 90% support of its people. So the fight in Ukraine needs to be done in many fronts.. Military front, Political front ,diplomatic front ,Business front  and Public Opinion front.. that is shaped by the media.

    That said americans cannot start a war on Russia without Public opinion absolute majority support. and fully explaining the possible consequences of it.  What American Government
    could do if they were really desperate to destroy the planet.. they could start a False FLag
    in US cities.. detonate nuclear bombs there.. and later blame Russia for it.

    Fortunately for Putin.. he have been very friendly to Americans always speaking
    that they want good relations with Americans and will continue working with them even if
    relations bad..  So Putin truly understand how important is public opinion in war.. thats why
    he calls Ukraine their brotherly nation and how he call americans friends at time..
    this is not because Putin is naive or an idiot.. he very well will like to bomb poroshenko and Washington DC.. it is a message to the world opinion.. To get the entire world ,including americans on Russian side.. on the need for political dialogue..

    And this is why every American Politician or NATO , whenever they talk about Russia..
    the mention the word "Russia Agression" as many times as possible.. and this is to gain
    Public Opinion.. to get people opinion on their side.. that way if a war start.. or a major
    unintended consequence happens ,that they provoke Russia and Russia strike back.. that the
    people anger and hate is driven against Russia and NOT against them. .  Cool

    Civil wars are more more dangerous ,for a government than a nuclear war. Because if you get
    your army divided ,and half of the nation seeking to overthrow you.. the entire country will go down and without Russia firing a single shot..  and Public Opinion is the most important thing
    in the world for any war or conflict. is what makes the difference in weather you will be alone
    fighting or with vast majority of the world support.

    Remember when Putin told in the Syrian war.. when the US navy was withing  hours to fire
    cruise missiles to to Strike Syria.. Putin told he will not fight Americans , not even in defense of their allies in Syria. That Russia will only seek diplomacy to solve their difference.. Shocked
    Did Putin betrayed Syria? No.. It was neccessary to get World Opinion on Russia Side.. and they did it.. and that was the reason Obama retreated from his frontal direct attack on Syrian Government. Because Obama wanted war against Syria was NOT officially supported by anyone in NATO (other than France).. So the World Public Opinion ,including its NATO allies was against
    them.. Cool    Yet Putin told will never fight in defense of Syria.. but behind the scenes their warships in Syrian Coast were monitoring any single movement of US navy to warn Syria about any missile launch and help with logistics the Syrian Government. Significantly improving
    the Syrian Small Navy and Airforce of all US navy movements , Russia could easily have guided
    the missiles that Syria fire to its final target.. and Americans will have no way to know or proof
    Russia help.. Cool

    Having a diplomatic,friendly and humanitarian helpful stance ,shaking hands with Poroshenko ,kerry obama and nuland smiling..allows Russia to counter all the propaganda of being a monster by the west.that is worse than ISIS and not as bad as Ebola according to obama  lol1

    ,and also help to have the entire world opinion on Russian side ,including americans.
    that will be extremely helpful not only in case Russia is forced to fight in a major world war..(helping Russia to get overwhelming support of Russian people regardless of Economy ) but also to make Russia immune to AMerican staged False flags attacks (as was the malasyan plane) or any other they planning.that could be used to justify their western aggression.

    all said.. in any war that Russia is forced to fight.. they will need to have most of World Opinion on their side..but more than anything Russians opinion, otherwise it Risk ,a major civil war
    in Russia demanding Putin to be overthrow for Russians killed in an unjustified war... and this is exactly the goal of Americans.. They know Ukraine stand not a chance to win against Russia..
    but it doesn't matter.. as long they can damage Russia and Putin image , something that could be the caused by Russian army soldiers killed and economy destroyed etc.. then they win.

    Putin needs to maintain their nation unity at all cost.. no matter what ,if they want to avoid another soviet union style collapse and calls for separation  in Russia.. And this can be obtained by only using their army if it can be 100% fully justified..and fully explained that
    another Nation attacked them and that they need to defend itself.

    Having people support is also extremely important for RUssia ,so people help the Government
    defeat western sanctions and their attempts to isolate Russia.. Any government that lose
    people support is a dead government. and will get civil wars and divided armies and bankrupt
    economy and  cease to exist.. . Russia will defeat Kiev and without any army invasion.. this is what will happen if kiev continues its illegal criminal war for another year.


    Vann7, it is excellent post. It touch what is a real state policy, not a state policy make in hurry or anger. This is cold blood state policy of Russian Federation. State policy is not played in hours or days, it is played months or years in advance. So, to everyone who like to know more, read two books, Tragedy and hope, and second is Grand chessboard(this is written in 1984) and it is important because what is written in it, it happen now.
    But, I have a critical view of revolution in USA. How I see, they are far far away from any type of revolution. It is possible that there will be some unrest, big one, it is not impossible at all, but this protest are driven with other reasons, not by ideology. They are lack in ideology who will substitute today's political regime. And today`s regime, corporate media, know that very well and suppressing independent thinking and call for new ideology with all force what they can project now.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  chinggis on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:08 am

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    Ghoster wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:I wrote two long posts about my thoughts of this war and how things look now and in the future in another forum. I will share them here as well.

    First post:

    Good post. You sum up the situation pretty well.

    I wish I could be more optimistic for Novorossiya, but they're not on the winning side. IMO if NAF doesn't start responding to Ukrainian attacks adequately, then DPR/LPR governments will start to lose local support. No one even talks about the Minsk agreements seriously anymore. They were broken up completely by Ukraine since the very start.

    Yes, and this is why I think they should surrender. Since they cannot win this war on their own and since Russia is not going to save them what's the point of continuing this madness?

    I don't believe the Kiev junta would outright kill the civilian population if they surrender. They are going to hunt down anyone who has been cooperating with the LPR and DPR authorities and lots of innocent blood will be spilled and lots of innocent people will rot in prisons for the rest of their lives. But this is still better than have the whole cities destroyed with this long and painful attrition strategy of Kiev junta.

    The DPR and LPR leadership and all the military personnel of the NAF will of course have to go to Russia before the surrender. They will not be spared from death if they stay.

    Karl, you really do not understand how things look in civil war, what really happen with defeated population, you are out of mind. Second, you do not understand Slavic people and it`s thinking, if you are from Germanic country`s, than you must MUST know much better how Slavic people think and work, what is working for them, it`s unimaginable to most western people. I am tell you in one my older post, but you are not understand me so I will try to explain to you one more time.
    In WWII German forces with Quislings make horrible crimes, some of this crimes are not done in Eastern front at all, but they are done in Yugoslavia, and that is official state policy of German and it`s allies. They make seven offensives in hopes to annihilate Titos partisans. Look about that on Internet, it could be interesting to you. Reasons why they are not successful is:a) behind Titos partisan is ideology, b) on repression, Slavic peoples moral will not be broken, just reinforced, strengthened (you can see that in NATO bombing campaign in 1999) and on opposing force, it will add more ferocity in fighting and will to win. Many people do not see that behind Donbas people are ideology, right now it is masked by fighting, destruction of industry, private property, but it is there, and ideology is MAKING IT`S OWN SSSR. It will be mix of ideology from old SSSR, capitalism and liberal socialism. And this belief is so much dangerous for the rest of Ukraine that must be eradicated.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  whir on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:53 am

    Георгий Котенок wrote:"Valkyrie": after us - FRATERNAL RUSSIA!

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    That is a lot of melodramatic BS that proves that you do not know first thing about war or what happens to the losers regardless if they are defeated or surrender.

    I know there is little information from places like Kramatorsk, Slavyansk and Mariupol but I don’t remember reading anything like that the whole population in these cities would have been a target of a genocide. Slavyansk was the place where the whole armed rebellion started so if the Kiev junta wanted to commit a genocide it would be logical that it would have directed its rage at Slavyansk population.

    I don’t want to defend the Kiev junta a all and who knows what they would do if they could act freely after the surrender of the NAF. But the way I see it is that CURRENTLY the people in the junta occupied Slavyansk live better than people live in those parts of Donbass that are under constant shelling and economic blockade.

    The best option for the people of Donbass would be a military defeat of the junta but since that is not going to happen the next best option for these people would be the end of war. And currently the end of war is possible only with a surrender of the NAF.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I have a counterproposal. How about ukrops surrender. Or better yet, how about whole thing continues at the present course. Donass may get reduced to ashes but it will be just the small part of much larger and infinitely more horrible hell  that will persist for decades to come and devour entire generations.
    What you are saying that the people of Donbass should be some kind of "sacrificial lambs" for some "greater purpose"? They should be happy that their people are killed and their homes are destroyed because it is needed for "something better to happen in the future"?

    I say hell with these thoughts. If the NAF is not capable of protecting the people of Donbass and driving the enemy away of the artillery reach, or even worse, if they are held back by the Kremlin from doing so, I say drop the weapons and flee to Russia. Let the Kiev junta have the region and let the NATO have its missiles in Donetsk then. It would be better for the people of Donbass than constant war.


    PapaDragon wrote:
    It will be long, painful and absolutely horrific but it will have the benefit of turning life into absolute torment for millions of filthy scum who deserved it.
    And how do you think these millions of Ukrainians who are cheering for the death and destruction of Donbass will get their just punishments? How will it happen? Russia is currently giving them cheap gas, coal and nuclear fuel. The gas price was even reduced from what it was earlier. Russia does certainly not sound interested in being the one giving the punishment. If not Russia, then who or what is going to punish Ukraine?

    In a press conference with Finnish president Sauli Niinistö the Russian president Vladimir Putin called the junta in Kiev as his "partners". When a Finnish journalist asked what Putin is going to do to end the war Putin only said that both parties must adhere the Minsk agreement. Nothing else. No words about Kiev breaking it all the time. No words about constant shelling of civilian infrastructure. No criticism towards the junta at all.

    Vladimir Putin is not going to the man who is going to "turn life into absolute torment for millions of filthy scum who deserved it".


    Last edited by Karl Haushofer on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:37 am

    Nikander wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:What's interesting is that back a couple of months ago if Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery Putin would get up at 3 in the morning and complain about it. These days it's all business as usual and Putin does not say anything about it when Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery. By now, I doubt Russia would complain if the US gives nukes to Ukraine and Maidan drops a nuke on Donetsk. What would Putin say? Oh, that's bad behavior from Russia's brother nation?

    I read Russian news quite often, I highly doubt you do, as I have noticed that when you mentioned countless times that they don't report it, then I head on over to Tass news agency and see that they have reported it and complained about it, gives me full indication that you are lying.

    I said a couple of weeks ago that this Flagship guy is a paid troll who's lying constantly and I stand by that. That little blurb about Assad is telling. He's not the only one also. Everyone who is spreading defeatism for no reason, saying that Putin is a traitor or that Donetsk and Lugansk republics should quit and any other crazy ideas is not pro-Russian. He is just pretending to be to turn people against the government.
    Or maybe they have other motives for this?

    Maybe they want to spread "defeatism" in order to get the Russians finally demand action from their own government more actively ?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:03 am

    An overview of the water situation in Lugansk as it was on 16 June. It says that the situation was already critical, tho work on the two previously disabled pumping stations was being carried out and the ukrops so called "governor" of Lugansk, Moskal, had allowed water to flow from the Donets at the request of OSCE. As last nights attack on the previously undamaged electricity substation was not an "accident", a shell gone astray for instance, but due to 3 BMP pumping rounds into it, I guess Moskal is not going to let water flow from the Donets. Tho it is possible that this is very cynical and that he will allow water from the Donets and claim the destruction of the substation is nothing to do with them. There would then be water to stop people dying of thirst, but insufficient pressure for normal operation, and apart from the huge inconvenience for ordinary citizens, make life difficult for hospitals and industry. This is hardly reported for some reason.

    situation on 16 June
    http://cxid.info/situaciya-s-vodoy-v-gorodah-i-poselkah-samoprovozglashennoy-lnr-n122844

    yesterdays attack
    http://lifenews.ru/news/155969

    Edit: Cassad eventually reports the earlier attack on the substation yesterday morning by 82mm mortars and AGS, but no mention of the critical importance of the substation, and no mention of the evening attack that then destroyed the substation. It is like it is not to be mentioned, like the "T" word, odd.
    http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/15148-hronika-voennyh-sobytiy-v-novorossii-za-21062015.html#dt1042

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:58 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:What's interesting is that back a couple of months ago if Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery Putin would get up at 3 in the morning and complain about it. These days it's all business as usual and Putin does not say anything about it when Maidan shells Donetsk with heavy artillery. By now, I doubt Russia would complain if the US gives nukes to Ukraine and Maidan drops a nuke on Donetsk. What would Putin say? Oh, that's bad behavior from Russia's brother nation?

    Can you stop throwing the anti-Putin card in your replies? We get it man, Putin isn't doing anything according to you. No need to repeat it twice in every reply Rolling Eyes

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:26 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    US Will be Able to Supply Gas to Ukraine in Two Years - John McCain

    Senator John McCain said at a press conference in Kiev that US will be able to provide Ukraine and the rest of Europe with gas in the next two years.

    The United States will be able to supply gas to Ukraine and other countries of Europe within two years, Senator John McCain said at a press conference in Kiev.

    “The United States will supply natural gas to Ukraine and other parts of Europe in two years,” John McCain said on Saturday, RIA Novosti reported.

    According to him, Europe's dependence on Russian gas supplies is a major obstacle that makes Europe unable to strengthen further sanctions against Russia.
    ..........
    http://sputniknews.com/us/20150620/1023639607.html
    You know, i was gonna say that McCain jumped the shark, but this more like jumping the Sharknado. Shocked

    My bad. If only we had not rescue him from being drowned in Trúc Bạch lake.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:45 am

    Oy vey! Razz

    Seriously what's with the panic here.
    NAF will hold. The Ukrainian government will sooner or later collapse and with it the war. Matter of time.
    Have some faith.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:52 am

    New video from Artyom Grishanov, "Enemy at the Gates"

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:04 pm

    This is the Army Mr. Holhol....  lol1


    Farewell to Arms: Over 10,000 Soldiers Desert Ukrainian Army

    Desertion galore: Ukrainian men understand the absurdity of the war their government is waging.


    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150621/1023647747.html

    More than 10,000 cases of desertion have been registered in the Ukrainian Army since the outbreak of the Donbass war in April 2014, Ukrainian Vesti reported.

    In 2014 the army suffered heavy desertion and nearly 30 percent of the servicemen called up in the first wave of mobilization (March 17) abandoned their positions, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said.

    Ukrainian parliament Verkhovna Rada has announced six waves of mobilization so far. By the end of 2014 the strength of Ukrainian Armed Forces grew from 130,000 to 232,000.

    Ukrainians have been protesting against the mobilization. They travel to work abroad or simply reside at their relatives' in other countries. Almost 1,3 million Ukrainian draftees live in Russia.

    Since April 7, 2014 the Kiev authorities have been waging war against Donbass self-defense forces who rejected the legitimacy of the coup-imposed Ukrainian government and declared the independent republics of Donetsk and Lugansk.

    Official figures estimate the number of victims to near 6,500. But the German intelligence reported of 50,000 victims in February 2015.

    Although I think that 10.000 might be underreporting it... Razz



    Last edited by PapaDragon on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:05 pm

    Khepesh wrote:New video from Artyom Grishanov, "Enemy at the Gates"

    This guy makes very powerful videos.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:17 pm


    Will NAF have to spring for some RPGs to handle these or will WW2 Bazookas be enough? Twisted Evil  lol1

    Ukraine Receives More Obsolete Armored Vehicles From UK

    A second batch of redundant Saxon APCs arrived in Ukraine earlier this week, a senior adviser to President Petro Poroshenko announced on Saturday.


    “Well, 55 Saxons have reached Ukraine. 20 will be converted for use as frontline medical evacuation vehicles and the rest – as armored command vehicles,” Yuri Biryukov said in a Facebook post Saturday.

    “The Saxons cost us around 51,000 pounds apiece. With proper use we could be getting a whole lot of them. They are better than the (Russian-made) UAZ-452, or UAZ-469, aren’t they?” Biryukov added.

    The purchase of a group of antiquated AT105 Saxon armored personnel carriers from the United Kingdom was hailed by Ukrainian leadership as a major boost to the country's military.


    In March General Sir Richard Dannatt, who served as Britain’s Chief of the General Staff between 2006 and 2009, said he believed the Saxon armored vehicles were “quite useless.”

    "My concern is the inadequate nature of these vehicles which I ordered out of British Army front line service when I was Commander in Chief Land Command 2005-2006. They were withdrawn from Iraq and never deployed in southern Afghanistan,” Dannatt told The Daily Telegraph.

    The UK no longer uses the Saxon — but they are still utilized by countries including Nigeria and Bahrain for moving troops around.

    Ukraine accepted delivery of 20 Saxon armored vehicles from Britain in February to be weaponized and put into action by the army.

    For the record, even our riot cops think that these things are passe... Cool

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #16

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