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    Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

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    nemrod

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    Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:25 pm

    Russian air force has an edges on US Air combat fleet.

    To follow what I said previously here . This topic follows what I said about Usefulness of BVR combat, Value of stealth aircraft, and finally Airborne IRST properties and performance. To agree or not with my assertions, please read all the three links before, because they contain all my arguments .

    In a simple cheap asymmetric measures, and not costly Russian air force is able to easily nullify what the costly F-22, and F-35 bring : the stealth technology, beside BVR. In order to do that, russian air force needs only less than 3,2 billion USD to equip all its air fleet with powerfully IRST like OLS-50. For that reason since the beginning I was convinced that the Stealth fighters was aimed to terrify only backwards countries. Hence, the F-22, as F-35 were never done against russsian air force, because russian air force could easily neutralize US stealth. For that reason, untill now, US, contrary to what assert western propaganda, still rely on their fourth generation fighter like F-15, F-16, F-18. For that reason, I still consider the Mig-21-93 capable to win against F-35, and even the F-22. Obviously if this fighter has inside, a good pilot,  Russia does not lack of good pilots, and a good upgrade of its avionic, even by excluding its cumbersome radar.
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    max steel

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:47 pm

    Russia needs fifth gen fighter . Pak-fa outplays every murican and euripean best plane . moreover russian airforce is not strong against nato airforce in QUANTITY .
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    George1

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:08 pm

    nemrod wrote:For that reason, I still consider the Mig-21-93 capable to win against F-35, and even the F-22.

    MiG-21 to win against F-35/F-22??? Shocked Friend i think u exaggerate


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    nemrod

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:29 pm

    George1 wrote:
    MiG-21 to win against F-35/F-22??? Shocked Friend i think u exaggerate

    George, if you read the previous links that I posted, you might understood why I said this.

    1-Mig-21 is a small fighter, very agile, very manoeuvrable.
    2-F-22, and F-35 are fat and heavy fighter, if they seem to be manoeuvrable on demonstration, it would not be obvious in real combat.
    3-Training period on F-22 was reduced to 10 hours/month, meanwhile in Mig-21, you can train as long as you want.
    4-With IRST, Mig-21 could detect quickly the danger, and manage to avoid every missile launched against him. From BVR, the combat will finish into WVR.
    5-You can build Mig-21 as Khrutchev said  "sausages", it won't be the case with F-35/F-22
    etc...
    During Vietnam war, october 1973, Lebanon 1982, wars there are recurrent echos that Mig-21 manage to dodge several air to air missiles launched against him. I don't see why it could not be the case nowadays. When Mig-21 was downed, it was du to these respective reasons. The Mig-21 was outnumbered, and the Mig-21 was not aware of incomming missiles.
    A thing is sure, if a war occurs, US will go toward an authentic disaster.
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    George1

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:50 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    MiG-21 to win against F-35/F-22??? Shocked Friend i think u exaggerate

    George, if you read the previous links that I posted, you might understood why I said this.

    1-Mig-21 is a small fighter, very agile, very manoeuvrable.
    2-F-22, and F-35 are fat and heavy fighter, if they seem to be manoeuvrable on demonstration, it would not be obvious in real combat.
    3-Training period on F-22 was reduced to 10 hours/month, meanwhile in Mig-21, you can train as long as you want.
    4-With IRST, Mig-21 could detect quickly the danger, and manage to avoid every missile launched against him. From BVR, the combat will finish into WVR.
    5-You can build Mig-21 as Khrutchev said  "sausages", it won't be the case with F-35/F-22
    etc...
    During Vietnam war, october 1973, Lebanon 1982, wars there are recurrent echos that Mig-21 manage to dodge several air to air missiles launched against him. I don't see why it could not be the case nowadays. When Mig-21 was downed, it was du to these respective reasons. The Mig-21 was outnumbered, and the Mig-21 was not aware of incomming missiles.
    A thing is sure, if a war occurs, US will go toward an authentic disaster.

    so u propose that Russia replaces PAK-FA with MiG-21s?


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    nemrod

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:39 pm

    George1 wrote:
    so u propose that Russia replaces PAK-FA with MiG-21s?

    George, here is quote from Picard :

    IRST can be used as a relatively cheap way of turning an old, possibly even WVR-only, platform into one capable of BVR combat. With PIRATE + MICA IR combination, even an old F-86 would gain a capability to shoot down enemy fighters from beyond visual range....

    I've never said replace PAK-FA by Mig-21, nevertheless, seeing the cost, and the actual fleet of russian air force that included Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-25/31, Mig-29/35, SU-27/30/33/35 with just an intelligent upgrade you could nullify what seems to be a huge waste of money named Stealth. Moreover, do not forget that the first who developed stealth technology was not US, but soviet scientist Petr Ufimtsev, more than any country Soviet Union understood very well the opportunity, and the setbacks about such technology. It is curious that Russian Federation with less money decided to implement a such cost project, with dubious advantages. As I said since the beginning Mig-29, and Su-27 familly are largely enough against all kind of NATO fighters
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    Mike E

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:50 am

    nemrod wrote:1-Mig-21 is a small fighter, very agile, very manoeuvrable.
    2-F-22, and F-35 are fat and heavy fighter, if they seem to be manoeuvrable on demonstration, it would not be obvious in real combat.
    3-Training period on F-22 was reduced to 10 hours/month, meanwhile in Mig-21, you can train as long as you want.
    4-With IRST, Mig-21 could detect quickly the danger, and manage to avoid every missile launched against him. From BVR, the combat will finish into WVR.
    5-You can build Mig-21 as Khrutchev said  "sausages", it won't be the case with F-35/F-22
    etc...
    During Vietnam war, october 1973, Lebanon 1982, wars there are recurrent echos that Mig-21 manage to dodge several air to air missiles launched against him. I don't see why it could not be the case nowadays. When Mig-21 was downed, it was du to these respective reasons. The Mig-21 was outnumbered, and the Mig-21 was not aware of incomming missiles.
    A thing is sure, if a war occurs, US will go toward an authentic disaster.
    2; is false...the F-35 is not the most maneuverable aircraft but the F-22 is one of the most so. 

    3; such claims are thrown around w/o much backing, not to say that is not true. 

    4; IRST is great but lacks sufficient range to be relied on. They are also reliant on local conditions.

    5; yes, but the F-22 far outclasses any fighter from that era...with upgrades or w/o them.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Why Russia does not need the costly PAK-FA

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:14 am

    In a simple cheap asymmetric measures, and not costly Russian air force is able to easily nullify what the costly F-22, and F-35 bring : the stealth technology, beside BVR. In order to do that, russian air force needs only less than 3,2 billion USD to equip all its air fleet with powerfully IRST like OLS-50. For that reason since the beginning I was convinced that the Stealth fighters was aimed to terrify only backwards countries. Hence, the F-22, as F-35 were never done against russsian air force, because russian air force could easily neutralize US stealth. For that reason, untill now, US, contrary to what assert western propaganda, still rely on their fourth generation fighter like F-15, F-16, F-18. For that reason, I still consider the Mig-21-93 capable to win against F-35, and even the F-22. Obviously if this fighter has inside, a good pilot, Russia does not lack of good pilots, and a good upgrade of its avionic, even by excluding its cumbersome radar

    Hahahaaha... that is like saying that all Russia needs is a really good 6 ton payload class transport aircraft like the Il-112V... because it is cheap they can have thousands of them so they wont need any An-124s, that are big and expensive and vulnerable.

    Russia needs a variety of aircraft and stealth aircraft will be useful too.

    The US are an all or nothing bunch... look at their all nuclear sub fleet... and the fact that they think all their medium and light fighters can be replaced with one type (F-35).

    I agree that for the moment Russia should not go for an all stealth fleet... and they are not.

    I also agree that alternatives to radar like IRST and weapon pods with thermal sensors should be included on new Russian aircraft... and they are.

    BTW the MiG-21 is an interceptor intended to shoot down bombers and is not super agile.

    [qutoe]5-You can build Mig-21 as Khrutchev said  "sausages", it won't be the case with F-35/F-22
    etc...[/qutoe]

    Creating cannon fodder is not the solution.

    During Vietnam war, october 1973, Lebanon 1982, wars there are recurrent echos that Mig-21 manage to dodge several air to air missiles launched against him. I don't see why it could not be the case nowadays.

    Because modern digital AAMs with thrust vector engines can manouver rather better than old models from 40 years ago.


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