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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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    Vann7
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:24 pm

    anyone knows what's up with "Kalashnikov USA" company
    in America is selling all Russian arms but manufactured in America and using
    more modern materials?  Did they pay royalties kalashnikov in Russia for that?



    Can they produce AK-12 made in USA and sell it there without paying a cent
    or asking permission to Russia ?  Some of the models looks like AK-12 to me..
    Or is "kalashnikov USA" is a franchise of (Kalashnikov Russia) and they pay royalties? or both companies have nothing to do with each other? and simply Americans are stealing/compying/Reverse Engineering what Kalasnikov produce?

    i heard somewhere that US companies "have a license" to make kalasnikov
    will be interesting to see what Kalasnikov company in Russia says about
    Americans companies manufacuring their weapons and selling it.
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    zepia
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  zepia on Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:13 am

    Vann7 wrote:anyone knows what's up with "Kalashnikov USA" company
    in America is selling all Russian arms but manufactured in America and using
    more modern materials?  Did they pay royalties kalashnikov in Russia for that?



    Can they produce AK-12 made in USA and sell it there without paying a cent
    or asking permission to Russia ?  Some of the models looks like AK-12 to me..
    Or is "kalashnikov USA" is a franchise of (Kalashnikov Russia) and they pay royalties? or both companies have nothing to do with each other? and simply Americans are stealing/compying/Reverse Engineering what Kalasnikov produce?

    i heard somewhere that US companies "have a license" to make kalasnikov
    will be interesting to see what Kalasnikov company in Russia says about
    Americans companies manufacuring their weapons and selling it.


    According to the CEO, Kalashnikov Concern have no relations to Kalashnikov USA.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/08/exclusive-alexey-krivoruchko-the-ceo-of-the-kalashnikov-group-has-answered-your-questions/
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:11 am

    zepia wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:anyone knows what's up with "Kalashnikov USA" company
    in America is selling all Russian arms but manufactured in America and using
    more modern materials?  Did they pay royalties kalashnikov in Russia for that?



    Can they produce AK-12 made in USA and sell it there without paying a cent
    or asking permission to Russia ?  Some of the models looks like AK-12 to me..
    Or is "kalashnikov USA" is a franchise of (Kalashnikov Russia) and they pay royalties? or both companies have nothing to do with each other? and simply Americans are stealing/compying/Reverse Engineering what Kalasnikov produce?

    i heard somewhere that US companies "have a license" to make kalasnikov
    will be interesting to see what Kalasnikov company in Russia says about
    Americans companies manufacuring their weapons and selling it.


    According to the CEO, Kalashnikov Concern have no relations to Kalashnikov USA.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/08/exclusive-alexey-krivoruchko-the-ceo-of-the-kalashnikov-group-has-answered-your-questions/

    1. AK USA, is the old importer, there's a contract between both regarding AK's in SKD kits. This contract is now suspended because the Sanctions. (as in interview).
    2. AK USA isn't "producing" guns, it is buying kits (currently part of them in Israel) and producing parts in the US to be US Compliant (you need a number of parts produced in the US). The actual company behind AK USA is in fact CAA USA (which also the US importer of CAA Tactical from Israel).
    3. There' nothing in that booth that looks like an AK-12, nothing at all. The AK Alfa, is in fact a legacy AK dressed up with plastic. It has various solutions which others had applied. It most remarkably employs IWI solutions in terms of materials (ACE family) so basically it's a kit that could easily be adapted to the Galil series.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:53 pm

    KoTeMoRe

    I didn't mention that particular design to argue in favour of it, but to raise questions on whether or not it actually worked. The ACE series of rifles made that particular modification and so I wondered if it reduced barrel vibrations as they claim.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:29 am


    I really like the 'AK-15' that was shown a couple of pages back. I just wish they found a way to make a free-floating AK - to further increase accuracy. I read somewhere that a free-floated barrel can be up to 2X more accurate. Most engagements are apparently within 80 meters, so I guess this isn't really required when the AK-74 can already accurately lay down fire 500 meters out.
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    GarryB
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:49 am

    There is an enormous difference between accuracy and battlefield accuracy.

    A nice sunny day at the range with a sand bag to lean on and a nice flat unmoving paper target at a specific range is one thing.

    Tired, hungry, SCARED... targets dressed in camouflage uniforms that break up their shape and that move erratically from cover to cover and are firing back is not really the same thing.

    In the real world an AK has a battle setting of 300.

    When set to that distance the bullet will hit the target in the centre of the chest when aiming at the centre of the chest of the target at 300m.

    The shape of the trajectory of the bullet means a hit from muzzle to about 400m.

    What I mean is that when the bullet leaves the barrel it starts to fall due to gravity.

    When you zero the iron sights to three hundred metres that means you angle the sights so the barrel lofts the bullet into the air and by the time it has travelled 300m it has fallen down back into the line of sight to the point of aim.

    300m is not some random number... the height the bullet is lofted to hit the chest at 300m is less than the height to a normal persons top of their head, so the bullet rises from the centre chest aim point up to about the centre of their head and then back down to their chest at 300m.

    This is called point blank range because the round never goes above the targets head from the muzzle all the way out to the target, so if you estimated the targets range badly you should still get a hit.

    More importantly when talking about accuracy you need to keep in mind how the human eye works.

    When you place your cheek on the stock of an AK-74 you are aligning three things instinctively. Your eye is one thing, the rear iron sight is the second and the front iron sight is the third.
    That position is called a cheek wield and it is something you practise over and over until it becomes automatic.

    The human eye is an amazing piece of kit but it cannot focus on more than one thing at one distance.

    Without thinking about it you think you can see in a wide field of view but the human eye can only detect high detail within about 4-5 degrees of the centre of its view... the rest is not focussed and does not include a lot of detail.

    the field of view vision outside the centre 4-5 degrees is optimised to detect movement... it is actually very good at that so anything that moves draws the centre of your vision to it... you see something to your side move and you automatically turn your eyes to see what it is.

    Your brain could not cope with all the detailed information in your entire field of view anyway.

    The point is that you can either focus on the rear iron sight, the front iron sight or the target.

    To shoot properly you have to position your head so you always look through the rear sight at the front sight.

    There is no point in focusing on the target... looking through the rear sight at the front sight tells you where your bullets are going and that is the important thing.

    You of course need to look at the target and identify it as a valid target, but to actually shoot the target you focus on your front sight through the rear sight and place the top of the front sight in the centre of mass of the blur that is the target and fire.

    Even with a peep iron sight you are still positioning your eye against the rear iron sight and looking at the front iron sight to shoot at the blur that is the target.

    Add to that the target is moving and shooting back and you might imagine that it is not the bullet with your name on it you should be worrying about it is those delivered to whom it may concern that are the killers.

    Note optics makes shooting vastly easier as they magnify the target and allow the aim point (crosshairs) and the target to be in focus at once making it much easier to shoot accurately and at greater distances.

    For stationary targets you can actually aim for a specific part of the target.

    note that is the purpose of a bulls eye because even when blurred a small black dot inside a large white circle makes the centre of the target easy to see even when not in focus.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:50 am

    Kalash haters eat crow for the second year in a row, they end the year with net profits:

    "Kalashnikov" was released on the net profit: Concern Revenue in 2015 grew by 2.8 times
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:57 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Kalash haters eat crow for the second year in a row, they end the year with net profits:

    "Kalashnikov" was released on the net profit: Concern Revenue in 2015 grew by 2.8 times

    I'm an CK hater (Hate the lobby jigamathing), but I can't say I'd be happy with Izhmash or Baikal being in trouble. Also CK having a good export pool, the RUR drop helps them a lot.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:59 am

    GarryB wrote:There is an enormous difference between accuracy and battlefield accuracy.

    A nice sunny day at the range with a sand bag to lean on and a nice flat unmoving paper target at a specific range is one thing.

    Tired, hungry, SCARED... targets dressed in camouflage uniforms that break up their shape and that move erratically from cover to cover and are firing back is not really the same thing.

    In the real world an AK has a battle setting of 300.

    When set to that distance the bullet will hit the target in the centre of the chest when aiming at the centre of the chest of the target at 300m.

    The shape of the trajectory of the bullet means a hit from muzzle to about 400m.

    What I mean is that when the bullet leaves the barrel it starts to fall due to gravity.

    When you zero the iron sights to three hundred metres that means you angle the sights so the barrel lofts the bullet into the air and by the time it has travelled 300m it has fallen down back into the line of sight to the point of aim.

    300m is not some random number... the height the bullet is lofted to hit the chest at 300m is less than the height to a normal persons top of their head, so the bullet rises from the centre chest aim point up to about the centre of their head and then back down to their chest at 300m.

    This is called point blank range because the round never goes above the targets head from the muzzle all the way out to the target, so if you estimated the targets range badly you should still get a hit.

    More importantly when talking about accuracy you need to keep in mind how the human eye works.

    When you place your cheek on the stock of an AK-74 you are aligning three things instinctively. Your eye is one thing, the rear iron sight is the second and the front iron sight is the third.
    That position is called a cheek wield and it is something you practise over and over until it becomes automatic.

    The human eye is an amazing piece of kit but it cannot focus on more than one thing at one distance.

    Without thinking about it you think you can see in a wide field of view but the human eye can only detect high detail within about 4-5 degrees of the centre of its view... the rest is not focussed and does not include a lot of detail.

    the field of view vision outside the centre 4-5 degrees is optimised to detect movement... it is actually very good at that so anything that moves draws the centre of your vision to it... you see something to your side move and you automatically turn your eyes to see what it is.

    Your brain could not cope with all the detailed information in your entire field of view anyway.

    The point is that you can either focus on the rear iron sight, the front iron sight or the target.

    To shoot properly you have to position your head so you always look through the rear sight at the front sight.

    There is no point in focusing on the target... looking through the rear sight at the front sight tells you where your bullets are going and that is the important thing.

    You of course need to look at the target and identify it as a valid target, but to actually shoot the target you focus on your front sight through the rear sight and place the top of the front sight in the centre of mass of the blur that is the target and fire.

    Even with a peep iron sight you are still positioning your eye against the rear iron sight and looking at the front iron sight to shoot at the blur that is the target.

    Add to that the target is moving and shooting back and you might imagine that it is not the bullet with your name on it you should be worrying about it is those delivered to whom it may concern that are the killers.

    Note optics makes shooting vastly easier as they magnify the target and allow the aim point (crosshairs) and the target to be in focus at once making it much easier to shoot accurately and at greater distances.

    For stationary targets you can actually aim for a specific part of the target.

    note that is the purpose of a bulls eye because even when blurred a small black dot inside a large white circle makes the centre of the target easy to see even when not in focus.

    Thanks,  Garry, that certainly puts everything into perspective.  As I understand it,  the AK-74 is pretty much just as accurate as the M16; the AK-12 has improved on the accuracy,  while being many times more reliable than the AR 15 series of rifles or any other rifle.  Most urban environment engagements take place within 50 m whereas open field engagements occur within 183 m. American and German soldiers still complain about the reliability of their rifles,  so I would much rather take the AK to war. I made a mistake in my other post on average  engagement ranges.

    Thanks again,  mate.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Acheron on Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:45 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I really like the 'AK-15' that was shown a couple of pages back. I just wish they found a way to make a free-floating AK - to further increase accuracy. I read somewhere that a free-floated barrel can be up to 2X more accurate. Most engagements are apparently within 80 meters, so I guess this isn't really required when the AK-74 can already accurately lay down fire 500 meters out.

    Floating barrels are only necessary for specialized sniper rifles that require sub-MOA accuracy and are typically utilized at ranges above 1km. Even designated marksmen rifles with a typical engagement radius of 300m-800m typically don't employ floating barrels. For a service rifle like an AK or AR there is no need to implement floating barrels since they are already accurate enough (ie. able to hit man-sized targets) at their typical engagement ranges. In fact, since military science has shown that the number of battle casualties is strongly correlated with the number of rounds released on target, it would be more helpful to implement mechanisms which decrease the recoil from each shot and thereby allow the shooter to more rapidly release rounds on the target.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:18 pm



    Thanks, Acheron. I definitely now understand that the AK-74 and onwards can hit a man in the chest from as far as 300 m, which is at the upper reaches of average engagement ranges, so a free floating barrel really isn't necessary. I just wanted to know if a free-floating barrel was possible in an AK platform.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:49 pm

    3-D printed AK-12 perhaps?

    "Stankoprom" began to publish details of small arms of 3D-printers
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:59 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:3-D printed AK-12 perhaps?

    "Stankoprom" began to publish details of small arms of 3D-printers
    Nah only part of the handguard and there's a polymer receiver in testing. Russian MOD doesn't want anything to do with it.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:32 am

    3-D printed AK-12 perhaps?

    Maybe start with just semi disposable magazines or custom fitting stocks (ie custom to the operator, not the gun).

    Still waiting for a decent Russian multicalibre hunting rifle...


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  selion1 on Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:02 am

    This Machine gun has little history compared with others. What bullets are best.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:53 am

    No history because it is new, but it is based on the AK design which has plenty of history.

    the best calibre will be 5.45 x 39mm... accurate enough, lethal enough and light and cheap enough...


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:No history because it is new, but it is based on the AK design which has plenty of history.

    the best calibre will be 5.45 x 39mm...  accurate enough, lethal enough and light and cheap enough...

    Apparently in USSR would not fully agree with you since 6x49mm unified round programme was pretty well. Cancelled due to ammo capabilities but after-Soviet cuts...
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:56 pm

    Cancelled due to not having to fight WW3 in a pinch anymore, or so they thought.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:58 pm

    The 6x49mm calibre is designed for medium to long range use in machine guns and sniper rifles.

    It was never intended for assault rifles, for which the Russian military seem rather happy with the 5.45 x 39mm.

    There was talk of new propellents increasing muzzle velocity by 30%, which would make the 5.45mm calibre weapon... say 910m/s up to about 1,183m/s muzzle velocity and with its very good sectional density it would greatly extend its effective range, but experience shows actual combat takes place at much shorter range where the 5.45mm ammo is perfectly adequate.

    The 6 x 49mm ammo was cancelled because there was no money to spend to get it into service.

    Now that they are updating their small arms I rather suspect they will also be considering updating their calibres and ammo types too.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:28 pm

    So what is happening? Any rifles in service or any orders? The whole AK-12 and Ratnik program just went quiet. Even sappers in Syria using older gear.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So what is happening? Any rifles in service or any orders? The whole AK-12 and Ratnik program just went quiet. Even sappers in Syria using older gear.

    I thought that ratnik was already in use with some marines in Syria:






    can someone confirm if it is ratnik?
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:34 pm

    Ratnik is also the thermal imagers, new comm system (which might be there) and helmet mounted piece. Not just the new kevlar vest/helmet. As well, AK-12 is supposed to be part of Ratnik.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Militarov on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:36 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Ratnik is also the thermal imagers, new comm system (which might be there) and helmet mounted piece. Not just the new kevlar vest/helmet. As well, AK-12 is supposed to be part of Ratnik.

    Rifle still has not be selected, probabily during this year it will be finished. And issued probabily 2017+
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:38 pm

    Huh, I thought AK-12 beat out AEK? Unless they a waiting on the other rifles like the A525 or whatever it is called bullpup.
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Huh, I thought AK-12 beat out AEK? Unless they a waiting on the other rifles like the A525 or whatever it is called bullpup.

    i've heard rumors about AEK be more close to be selected, and that both were selected

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