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    AK-12 Rifle Discussion

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    GarryB
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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:49 pm

    Russian Military to Dispose of 4 Mln Guns by 2015 – Paper

    The Russian Defense Ministry is planning to dispose of four million obsolete guns, mainly Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifles, by 2015, the Russian daily Izvestia reported on Wednesday.

    According to a source in the Russian defense industry quoted by the paper, out of 16 million guns accumulated at military warehouses, 6.45 million are worn-out.

    Russian First Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Sukhorukov said in September last year that the ministry possessed 17 million Kalashnikovs.

    Analysts say the number of guns in storage is excessive for Russia’s military forces that account for one million servicemen.

    The AK-74 is the most widely used and well-known assault rifle in the world. It is used by armies of some 50 countries, as well as by countless guerrilla movements.

    In January, Russia's largest firearms manufacturer, Izhmash, unveiled a prototype of its new Kalasnikov assault rifle designed to replace the outdated guns.

    The legendary Kalashnikov assault rifle

    The new rifle, dubbed AK-12, has improved ergonomics and tactical flexibility, and is being designed as a basic platform for the development of nearly 20 different modifications of the weapon. It could be adapted for cartridges varying from 5.45x39 mm to 7.62x51 NATO.

    Interesting... Disposing of worn out and obsolete weapons... I would suspect they will want to keep some in 7.62 x 39mm as some units seem to prefer the heavier round and it is still likely cheaper than 9 x 39mm ammo.

    Of course buying AK-100 series AK-103s gives you larger calibre rifles that are newer.

    Now buying AK-12s means new stuff is easier to attach and the weapon will handle better and be easier to use.

    There are plans for a from scratch weapon design however so the AK-12 is still a stopgap...

    Nearly 20 modifications of the AK-12 is interesting, but with all the calibre options that could just be light frame lighter calibre rifles and carbines and LMG models... so the equivalent of the AKS-74U, AK-74M, and the RPK-74, in 5.45, 5.56, 6.5mm Grendal, and 7.62 x 39mm calibre, which is 12 combinations, plus the heavy calibre model perhaps with carbine, rifle and LMG/DMR length barrels in 7.62 x 51mm and perhaps one other calibre that might or might not be 6 x 49mm which gives us 18 combinations of barrel length and calibre... which is almost 20.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:30 am

    I would suspect the weapons that are getting worn out fastest would be those used by special forces as they will likely put thousands of rounds through their rifles every week or two in training.

    I wonder if the AK-12 will be in 9 x 39mm calibre?

    The introduction of the 12.7 x 55mm round seems to suggest that they want a heavier round better able to penetrate armour at a distance... now if this is the case then having 9 x 39m ammo and 12.7 x 55mm ammo doesn't really make much sense. The problem of course is that there are a fairly wide range of weapons that use 9 x 39mm as a standard cartridge that probably couldn't be scaled up easily to the larger round.

    Perhaps the secret cartridge for the AK-12 is the 12.7 x 55mm in the larger frame model?

    If the number of Mosin Nagant Rifles that are on sale here is anything to go by they are clearing out their old stuff, so moving on to more modern rifles will be a good thing.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:01 am

    There is a new page at the SAI website which shows the full length and carbine models of the 5.45mm model with their stocks extended and folded:





    While in the photo above there is the 7.62 x 39mm rifle and carbine, 5.56mm rifle and carbine, and the 7.62 x 51mm rifle. This begs the question as to whether there is a carbine version of the 7.62 x 51mm rifle.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:30 pm

    The AK-12 in the Russian edition of "Popular Mechanics".
    http://rutor.org/torrent/188942/populjarnaja-mehanika-%E2%84%965-maj-2012-pdf

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:45 am

    Call me Mr Paranoid, but that seems to want me to download an executable file and I really don't like that.

    Is there anything new in the article for those brave enough to download?

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:42 am

    Had a look on the popular mechanic website and to be honest... based on the article about the failed Phobos Grunt space launch... I really don't think I want to read what they have to say about the AK-12... I would expect it will talk about how many people AKs have killed, and why it is a modified AK-47 that is still not as good as western uber rifles.

    I wonder how the poor cavemen soldiers of the 1980s coped without being able to carry 10 different barrels for their rifles in different calibres and barrel lengths... but then most armchair amateurs are fascinated by the wrong things.

    I am of course an armchair amateur myself but I really don't care how pretty something looks or what it is based on.

    Does it work reliably and does it achieve what it was supposed to achieve.

    Being able to change calibre is pointless to a soldier because there is no way that soldier will wander around the battlefield picking up enemy ammo and transfering it to his own magazines read for when he runs out of his own standard ammo, let alone carry the weight of an extra barrel and bolt and likely non compatible magazines for the other ammo type. Instead he will just carry extra ammo. He doesn't need to carry a million rounds that is why units get resupplied and even in the worst case scenario he can pick up a weapon from an enemy combatant if he needs to.

    For special forces, as I have said, having lots of calibre options and barrel length options means they can use one rifle instead of 3-5 weapons but even they are not going to go on a mission with all those barrels and switch between them.

    For a hunter like myself the multi calibre options means I can spend a little more on one weapon but get the advantages of the different calibres, so long range (250-300m) shooting Magpies I might choose a 223 or 5.45mm calibre, whereas goats and pigs would normally be 100-150m with something light and low recoil like a 7.62 x 39mm with soft point ammo, whereas hunting full sized deer I would want a full power 7.62mm calibre round like the 7.62 x 54mm. Of course for rabbits and possums a nice 12 gauge would be one option, but a revolver based rifle in .22LR and .22WMR would be excellent.

    We have looked at the Yastreb, but I see there is another rifle that has a fold out chamber with a 9 round capacity cylinder that would be much easier to load... still both would be useful... a good shot could take game at up to 75m and 120m with the .22LR and .22WMR respectively, though I would probably try to get closer... 40m and 80m respectively.

    Again sighting would mean that simply loading alternate ammo types or switching ammo types would require a rezero of the rifle.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2012 12:15 pm

    The pump action mechanism is to make it relatively easy to load while keeping a focus on the target, but without looking too military.

    To that end I would suggest modern synthetic stocks and grips that are wood coloured so as to appear less military like an all black weapon would.

    The option of integrally silenced barrels would be useful in appropriate calibres... like .22lr, and 7.62 x 39mm while all barrels should be threaded to allow either muzzle attachments like muzzle brakes and suppressors be fitted.

    Using existing standard AK mags would be very useful and is an untapped market... you could probably make a good living just making magazines in different sizes like 5, 10, 15, 20, and 30 round magazines in centrefire, but of course the larger calibre options like 7.62 x 54mm will require the mag well to be large enough to take it and the 12 gauge magazine.

    To get around this I would sell the basic weapon with four calibre kits. They would be a .22LR kit that you could get a spare barrel and use .22WMR and .17WMR, so that would mean a rimfire mag well adapter for the different mag sizes, and a short centrefire kit that had a short mag well adaptor for AK mags in 223, 5.45, and 7.62 x 39mm type AK mags... perhaps for American customers the ability to use the M16 mag as well, plus a long centrefire kit that allows Dragunov mags and Tigr mags to be used, and finally a shotgun well adaptor to allow shotgun barrels and mags to be used from 410 up to perhaps 10 gauge.

    (note for those not familiar with the gauge system it is based on a pound of lead... except the 410 which is .410 inch calibre. All the others if you take one pound of lead and divide it into separate perfect balls then the number of the gauge is the number of balls. In other words a 12 gauge means you take one pound of lead and divide it up into 12 separate equal sized balls and each ball is the diameter of a 12 guage barrel. Obviously the lower the number the larger the ball and the more powerful the weapon. A 32 gauge shotgun is light and low recoil though the shell length also has something to do with it. A 10 gauge is more powerful than a 12 gauge generally, as the ball that determines the calibre is 1/10th of a pound instead of 1/12th of a pound. Standard 12 gauge shells used to be 2 3/4th inch long, but with the introduction of lighter steel shot for PR reasons there has been an increase in 3 inch and even 3 1/2 inch chamberings. The metric is 12/70, 12/76, and 12/89 where the first number is the gauge and the second number is the shell length in mms... 70mm roughly equals 2 3/4th inch, 76mm is 3 inch and 89mm is 3 1/2 inch.)

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed May 02, 2012 7:09 pm

    Interview with CEO, "Izhmash" Maxim Kuzyukom

    http://lenta.ru/articles/2012/05/02/izhmash/

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 03, 2012 8:36 am

    So the MOD is to buy some AK-12s.

    Also interesting that the AK-200 was a mockup...

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Austin on Thu May 03, 2012 10:18 am

    So Garry can you some up in simple words if we have all the data points on AK-12 , what are the pro and cons of this new Rifle and how does it compare with AK-74M and AK-100 series ?

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 03, 2012 2:03 pm

    Well the key feature seems to be the combination of the original AKs reliability, but with a lot of the faults addressed.

    Faults of the original are not huge, but could be considered to be non adjustable for length buttstock (which means if you are wearing a heavy flak jacket and winter coat you can't shorten the stock to make it fit you better), short iron sight base with open iron sights instead of the generally (on the internet but not by me) preferred peep sights.
    The problem for right handed people that they had to either take their hand off the pistol grip or reach over with their left hand and cock the weapon and to operate the selector.
    The fact that with the weapon on safe you could not cycle the weapon to remove a round or load the first round from a magazine.
    Lack of a bolt hold open device.
    Difficulty in attaching scopes and other items not including bayonent and underbarrel grenade launchers.
    Claimed lower accuracy than western equivalent rifles.

    In addition to peep iron sights of greater sight radius (ie distance apart), the AK-12 has an adjustable length stock that also folds. It has a fire selector that can be reached easily by thumb no matter which hand you use and the cocking lever can be swapped over to either side to suit the user.
    The receiver has been made rigid and has had rails mounted to allow easy attachment and removal of all equipment and scopes designed for that rail system, while at the same time being compatible with the standard bayonet and the standard underbarrel grenade launcher. There is a bolt hold open device, and the rifling has been improved to increase accuracy.

    They went even further than this and also added a 60 round mag and 95 round drum ammo feed system so the operator can spend more time shooting and less time changing mags.

    They also adopted a new muzzle brake that allows the use of western standard rifle grenades.

    They also added a 3 round burst fire capacity and according to the reports modified the mechanism to reduce its weight which should reduce the recoil of parts slamming back and forth.

    All of this without radically altering the design that would make it harder to train with and more expensive to make and maintain.

    From what we have seen they are prepared to make a multi calibre model with different barrel length options for the Indian market which will make it modular.

    Overall I think these changes should make it an excellent rifle and I am rather curious about the as yet to be revealed secret calibre.

    Even in the article above you posted a link to there are hints about new calibres... the question is... does that mean 6 x 49mm or something based on that... or will it be something completely new.

    If we look at other weapon types the demands by the Russian military have been first to take the standard model and give it a complete upgrade to eliminate all its main problems and second to from scratch develop a new model that is a generation ahead and equal to or better than anything else available anywhere else.

    The problem has been that the upgraded model has been double the price of the old model so the military have taken the cheap route and waited for the generationally new model to get to production status.

    In the case of small arms I think the special units will be keen to try out the AK-12, and I think they will benefit most from the multi calibre nature of the weapon to be developed for India... especially if there are 5.45 x 39mm, 9 x 39mm, and 7.62 x 39mm models, and any heavy calibre version would be useful too... perhaps the heavier model in 7.62 x 54mm and 6 x 49mm and perhaps even 12.7 x 55mm calibre and 12 gauge too they could have two rifles each with short and long barrel configurations in the light model which gives 6 rifle combinations and in the heavier model the 6 x 49mm relying on velocity doesn't really suit a short barrel model and it makes less sense for a 7.62 x 54mm to be had in a short barrel model so perhaps just long and short barrel models of the 12.7mm and 12 gauge and full length models for the other two calibres, which is 6 weapon options too.

    So two weapons and 12 combinations of calibres and barrel lengths... not bad.

    In terms of demand to a weapon maker producing an upgraded model with all major perceived defects eliminated without making it too expensive, and also developing a totally new from scratch weapon that is world standard or better is interesting, and in terms of that sort of demand from an ammo maker this is very interesting too... what exotic solutions will they try for the new generation ammo? plastic cased ammo? Caseless ammo? Liquid propellent ammo? Electromagnetic weapons that don't even have propellent?

    I have read in one of the articles they are talking about a new method of operation for the weapons... recoil and gas pressure are the current standards, but there is electric drive and indeed liquid propellent or EM that could be used instead to cycle the weapon.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun May 06, 2012 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri May 04, 2012 6:49 am

    Thanks Garry , It looks like a promising rifle to me, probably will be tendered in India

    Here is the second part of interview with Izhmash CEO

    http://vpk.name/news/68690_vyiiti_iz_krizisa.html

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 04, 2012 11:00 am

    Seem to be just about Izhmash and its history and recovery from bankruptsy.


    BTW I noticed you asked on MP net about multi band sensors.

    Very simply a single band sensor might be good for specific roles, but certain problems might require sensors that operate in more than one spectral band.

    A good example would be the human eye. It can see visible light... light from red through to violet. Generally it can't see above violet (ie ultra violet) or below red (ie infra red). For clear day observation it is fine, but for night and bad weather it is not so good. You can use binoculars and telescopes but for the long range all weather detection of aircraft traditionally radar has been used.

    In terms of radar different frequencies or bands of frequencies have different strengths and weaknesses. MMW radar is very high resolution and can detect shape as well as distance but it is not good for long range and it is effected by some weather conditions though not as much as visible light is).

    The US Apache AH-64D uses a MMW radar system to detect ground and aerial targets day and night and in bad weather. It can detect targets out to about 8-9kms or so.

    The Russian Ka-52 and Mi-28NM will have MMW radar for ground targets and CM wave radars for aerial targets. The CM wave radar will allow aerial detection to much much greater ranges and while it would not be effective against ground targets the MMW radar can handle those.

    This is a case of using different bands for different purposes... in fact the presence of LLLTV and Thermal sights means that the new Russian helos are actually using 4 different bands to gather information on targets and threats and the environment around the aircraft... the LLLTV uses visible light, good for daylight only, the thermal sights use Infra Red which allows day and night and bad weather use, while the MMW radar is good for ground targets day and night and bad weather while the CM wave radar is good for aircraft at longer range and also for terrain avoidance modes.

    Multi band sensors only make sense if each band is useful. For instance with a radio FM band is line of sight, but carries a better volume of information so it can be clear high quality stereo. AM has better range but has a lower quality signal. If there is no AM radio station in range then having an AM/FM radio the AM capacity offers no advantage over just an FM radio.

    CM and MMW radar can be used against aircraft and ground targets, but CM Wave radar has longer range with less detail performance. MMW offers detail and could be used as a tracking radar while CM wave has range and could be useful as a search radar.

    The Apache shows you can get away with one radar type in an attack helo, but the Russian helos will get better air to air performance from their two band sets.

    Sorry for Off Topic

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 05, 2012 4:29 am

    The thing they will be showing off will be the ability to combine different capabilities into a system that would be limited to one or other band.

    For instance a combined four faced AESA system that offered X and Ku band capability would combine all the advantages of AESA (ie electronic 360 degree scanning) with the advantages of both X and Ku band radars.

    The problem is that the different frequency bands require different antenna modules of different sizes so in an array of 1,000 modules you might find that the smaller Ku band modules might be superimposed over the X band modules so rather than 1,000 X/Ku band modules you might find 300 Ku band modules with the remaining 700 being X band modules...

    In the case of an attack helo you might have X band modules on all four faces, but Ku band modules on the front face to give ground scanning capability over the front 120 degrees but 360 degree air coverage.

    Anyway... back on topic...

    Do you know which calibres the Indian Armed forces will be interested in with regard to a multi calibre AK-12?

    I would assume they will stick with 5.56mm and 7.62 x 39mm and 7.62 x 51mm, or is there a possibility they might go for a more exotic choice?

    Perhaps a 6.5mm Grendal calibre for assault rifles and 6 x 49mm for LMGs and designated marksman rifles... of course both calibres would have to be thoroughly tested and found to be superior in every way to warrant the cost.

    Of course as I have mentioned several times in the past the 6 x 49mm in my opinion which is believed to be an 80 grain bullet at about 1,145m/s, could benefit from new more powerful and cleaner burning powders and if they are planning to replace 7.62 x 54mm calibre weapons with this round I would prefer a heavier projectile... like a 125-130 grain bullet at perhaps 1,200m/s for accurate shooting to 1,000m plus and effective MG fire to 2,000m or so.

    The small calibre with relatively high mass should retain velocity very well which maintains energy over greater distances, though there might be issues with spin rate to stabilise it properly.

    Having a hardened pointed steel tip and fat lead rear should ensure good penetration while also the rear centre of gravity needed for a lethal tumbling effect on impact.

    I wonder when rifles will go the way of tank gun barrels and start being issued as smoothbores for the higher velocity lighter barrel mass, easier cleaning... for anti material rifles it might come fairly soon especially with EM technology moving forward.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat May 05, 2012 7:30 am

    GarryB wrote:Do you know which calibres the Indian Armed forces will be interested in with regard to a multi calibre AK-12?

    For regular soldier battle rifle ( check INSAS rifle ) they use NATO standard 5.56x45mm , for Anti-Terrorist operation which the Army/Paramilitary does widely in India they prefer the Russian 7.62 x 39mm , Ak-47 is widely used in such ops and even israel Tavor.

    I believe they will continue to use those standards in the type of operation I mentioned above as these has been standardised.

    Ofcourse there are the Special Forces , Security cover for PM , Ministers etc they tend to use PS-90 , Ak-47M ,german MP-5 is widely used.

    Yes the tender does mention multicaliber round as one of the key requirenment and i think AK-12 has good potential to win it as a replacement for INSAS.

    If you are interested in Indian Arms etc this is a good thread to look for

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4016&start=1800

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 06, 2012 2:56 am

    Thanks.

    BTW as mentioned here on this forum the bankruptcy does not mean they are finished, it was merely a means of clearing their debt and sorting a few major changes out.

    They have recovered from their bankruptcy and have a profit in this first half of the year that is several times their losses last year.

    They now are also in the process of using new tooling to improve production efficiency and would likely be very well placed to develop and offer new products and sign new deals.

    You have seen the videos of the AK-12 being chilled to minus 52 degrees C and having seen it covered in white frost and still firing... of course whether it still fires in 5.56mm calibre would probably depend on the ammo that is used.

    The revised cocking handle position removes the slot down the side of the weapon that when the weapon selector was set to fire exposed the receiver to dust and mud entry. The new design removes that slot so it is harder for foreign material to enter the mechanism which should make it even more reliable.

    The ammo production facilities the Russians sold to Venezuela impressed the Cubans so much they are in negotiations with Russia to upgrade their ammo production industry too. I would suspect that India might also benefit from such an upgrade.

    There was a blog linked to previously on this thread that seemed to show Izhmash as being still largely a manual hand build operation, yet these recent interviews and a video I have seen show state of the art milling equipment has been bought and is in the process of being mastered properly.

    This might result in the AK-12 actually being cheaper than an AK-100 and certainly being made to a higher level of precision.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:19 am



    I think this might have been posted before but if you look bottom right on the player there is a button with a label saying CC. This is the caption button which displays english subtitles.

    Unfortunately they are not particularly easy to read as the news footage already has text along the bottom, but is better than nothing for non Russian speakers/readers like myself.

    OK just posted this and it doesn't work... in the bottom right hand corner click on the youtube button and then when viewing on youtube perhaps there will be a CC button and a full screen button to make it easier to read.

    Ignore the paragraph starting with OK above, I have just looked at it again and there is a CC button on the embedded player and it is displaying english subtitles...

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:03 pm

    "Izhmash" showed AK-12 Russian security officials


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:45 pm

    AK-12: Weapon of future

    The Kalashnikov rifle continues to be the main firearm of the Russian army. Its new version – AK-12 has recently been presented by its developers in Solnechnogorsk near Moscow.

    Designers at the Izhmash factory have significantly upgraded the rifle by adapting it to contemporary conditions of waging combat, but at the same time, they have preserved the unique characteristics of the Kalashnikov rifle, says editor-in-chief of the Moscow-based National Defence magazine, Igor Korotchenko.

    “The new rifle has taken into account new achievements in design and technology. It will be more functional and meet the main demand for small arms – increasing its accuracy and range. The new rifle will be delivered to the Russian armed forces and Special Task Forces,” Igor Korotchenko said.

    The new version is distinguished by its module design and this makes it possible to develop about 20 modifications for civilian and military purposes with calibers from 5.45 to 7.62 mm. The AK-12 can be operated by one hand, and additional equipment such as optical sight, range finder and grenade launcher, can be installed on it. Another innovation is replaceable barrels, which can assure three methods of fire.

    Igor Korotchenko said that advanced technology and materials were used for the development of the new weapon, and more than ten new inventions will be used in making various models of the Kalashnikov rifle. These inventions will be patented, says military analyst Victor Baranets.

    “Our rifles have always won Grand-Prix in the world. Meanwhile, the Kalashnikov rifle has become legendary. In all, 50 million AK-74 rifles have been produced, and over 50 countries have bought them. I believe that the AK-12 will experience a similar history,” Victor Baranets said.

    The tests of the new rifle will be completed by the end of the year. Official tests will start in 2013. Then the rifle will go into service after the start of mass production.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:14 am

    From Izhmash.ru website:



    Full size photo:

    http://www.izhmash.ru/pix/news/ak-12_mil.jpg

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:55 am

    Interesting that the new version is modular, and that the calibres go from 5.45 to 7.62mm.

    This means no 9 x 39mm, though that might just mean their might be an AK-13 for suppressed models in 9 x 39mm and 12.7 x 55mm calibre.

    The 5.45-7.62mm range still includes potential calibres like 6 x 49mm and 6.5mm Grendel and other exotic calibres like the 5.45mm underwater ammo.

    Replacable barrels and calibre kits will make the weapon much more flexible, though the average soldier wont think much of of this feature, a special forces soldier will love being able to use one base weapon with different calibres and barrel lengths.

    Will be interesting to see how they deal with different Iron sight calibrations for the different calibres.

    That photo with the drum mag is also interesting as it looks like the old style 75 round type rather than the newer 95 round drum.

    Drums are expensive to make and tend to rattle, but the fire power capacity is useful so often troops would use the drum going into combat and then switch to box mags once the drum is empty.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:35 am

    5.45-7.62mm calibre with 'about' 20 modifications suggests to me probably short, carbine, rifle and LMG barrel length options in 5.45 x 39mm, 5.56 x 45mm, 7.62 x 39mm, and 7.62 x 51mm calibres, though it mentions hunters so perhaps add 6.5 grendel because we know about that. This might be way off base but a 222 model for hunters in countries that don't allow "military" cartridges for hunting could be useful.

    Of course they might not have the short barrel option with the civilian models.

    Also the 7.62 x 51mm model might be a separate larger frame version that is not so modular.

    The advantage of this is that the lighter calibre models can be made lighter because they don't have to take the extra stress of the larger calibre rounds so they can be shorter mechanisms and lighter structurally without compromising safety.

    In terms of sporting models I would be very keen on an AK-12 that I could buy without the 3 round burst or full auto feature, but that I could have in 5.45 and 7.62 x 39mm because the ammo is cheap. Having a .223 barrel/bolt/mag would be interesting too. I think I would also buy a 7.62 x 51mm model... especially if they made it in 7.62 x 54mm as well.

    Perhaps they could make a special very heavy frame sporting model that can use the 9.3 x 63mm round popular in Russia and Europe, as well as the 338 LM, and perhaps a few 7mm magnum types... having one rifle with different calibres would be very useful... a 338LM semi auto model could be adapted as a primary sniper weapon or a spotters weapon with the sniper using a bolt action for where accuracy is top priority.

    I actually think a suppressed light model family would sell well where such weapons are legal... like here in NZ.

    I would think a modular version with 9 x 39mm, 7.62 x 39mm, and 5.45 x 39mm could be rather interesting.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:06 am

    At the bare minimum you could probably get away with a four piece modular kit for each calibre.

    The four pieces you would need to change would be barrel (different calibre and chamber for different ammo types), plus bolt (for different case sizes for gripping and extraction), a magazine adaptor (for the different magazine types for the different calibres), and the fourth piece is a linking piece to ensure that the other three pieces match, so when the barrel for the 5.45 x 39mm calibre SMG or rifle or carbine or LMG is fitted this fourth piece will only allow the 5.45 x 39mm set bolt close and the 5.45 x 39mm magazine adapter be fitted. Only the 5.45 x 39mm fourth piece will fit all the 5.45 x 39mm barrels and will only allow the 5.45 x 39mm components (bolt and mag adaptor) fit while the 5.45 x 39mm barrel is fitted.

    Perhaps the simplest way to do it is to make that fourth piece the bolt carrier rather than an extra spare bit.

    This means the 5.56mm set bolt will not fit the 5.45mm bolt carrier and the 5.56 magazines will not allow the 5.45mm bolt and bolt carrier to cycle.

    The base rifle will work with all the calibres but not with mixed up calibre sets which of course will be dangerous in a combat situation if you have the wrong bolt so the rifle doesn't extract fire cases or doesn't fire reliably because your 5.45mm ammo is being rammed into the chamber with a bolt designed to hold 7.62 x 39mm rounds and the firing pin is missing the primer.

    A potential fifth set part could be an adaptor for the iron sight that is specific to the calibre and barrel length so you don't lose the advantage of improved barrels and rifling etc.

    Alternatively you could have a chart with the iron sight recalibrated to 1 to 20, with the range to the target dependent on the calibre and barrel length resulting in a chart showing the number to dial to get the correct range.

    I would think a simple battle range setting, or small scope might be better overall.

    With the front sights adjustable and the rear sights fixed you could zero each barrel to a set range... say 300m or 400m and in a combat situation aim high or low depending on whether the target is further or closer.

    Obviously for special forces a laser range finder with ballistic computer in the thermal sight will make things much easier. Perhaps a three digit number with the first number representing the calibre ( 1=5.45, 2=7.62x39mm 3=7.62 x 54mm 4=9 x 39mm, 5=12.7x55mm, 6=12.7x108mm, 7=14.5x114mm etc) and the second number representing barrel length (1-4), and the last number representing ammo type (1=ball, 2=AP, 3=tracer/underwater/flechette etc etc).

    So using an AK-12 with a LMG length barrel with armour piercing ammo you'd punch in 142 on the scope and place the crosshairs right on the centre chest of the target and lase it... a small spot will appear in the scope and you just place that spot centre chest of the target and fire a single shot with a very good chance of a first round kill in complete darkness.


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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:43 pm

    Here is a neat little summary on the info given to us so far on the AK-12.

    http://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/ar/ru/ak-12/

    Also here is another interesting article I found written by Karden himself (For those of you who don't know Karden is the alias used by an anonymous veteran of the MVD Spetsnaz with a great deal of combat experience). It is his personal opinions on the AK platform. He goes into great detail on the pros and cons of the rifle. It's actually one of the more detailed reports on the AK I've read. Basically what he ends up saying is that the AK is a good weapon, but it's not ideal for his line of work for several reasons and that there's better weapons out there.

    http://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/ar/ru/ak-karden/

    Sounds like the AK-12 covers pretty much all of the flaws he mentioned.

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    Re: AK-12 Rifle Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:31 am

    Sounds like the AK-12 covers pretty much all of the flaws he mentioned.

    I would hope that is because Izhmash talked to people like him when developing the AK-12.

    I suspect the modular multi calibre capability will be added to suit the needs of India and this will likely make it even more appealing to special forces personnel... so instead of having 5-6 weapons they can use one weapon with a few adaptor sets.

    For instance you want standard calibre weapons, but sometimes you want short weapons or long weapons or something in the middle. You also want alternative calibres... 7.62 x 39mm is handy because you can fit a suppressor and have a mag or two of subsonic ammo for the start of a mission when being quiet might be useful, but have standard high velocity ammo for when you need performance. With a suppressor only mission you can use a short barrel as it makes the weapon compact, but for a mission where supersonic ammo is carried and used then a carbine or rifle barrel will give better power.
    To achieve this you would need... give Russian previous equivalents, AKS_74U, AK-105, AKS-74, and RPK-74 in 5.45mm calibre plus an AK-103 and AK-104.

    With the AK-12 the 5.45mm set would include bolt and bolt carrier, mag adapter, and up to four barrels of different lengths and attachments, plus the 7.62 x 39mm set with a bolt and bolt carrier, mag adapter, and probably 3-4 barrels.

    Using the same base gun with the same interface and sights etc means it is cheaper and easier to practise, cheaper to buy, and of course when you are firing thousands of rounds a week when the barrels wear out you can just buy a new set rather than a new rifle.

    Thanks for posting those links Mr AK.

    BTW the multi calibre modularity will be meaningless to most grunts, but the improved human interface, larger mags and ability to attach all sorts of stuff, along with the improved accuracy will likely be popular.

    For a hunter it is a rifle that is a flexible as a shotgun but with better range.

    Regarding Kardans post... comments about the FN FAL being the best rifle in the world in the 1980s because it was so widely deployed is a bit naive... it is a very good rifle, but seriously compromised in terms of performance by its round which was simply too powerful. Politics had a role to play there too... if the Brits hadn't picked it and therefore the British commonwealth then it would have been in much less wide spread service.

    There is a reason there are more than 100 million AKs and AK knockoffs floating around...

    It should be pointed out that his problems with the AK not being able to be carried loaded with the safety on and when a target appears be able to slip off the safety and fire more easily than the current AK design is not just solved on the AK-12 with the thumb selector on both sides it was also not a problem with several early AK prototypes which also had fire selectors near the shooters thumb for easy access, but for one reason or another this design choice was eliminated from the competition...

    This is the most important part:

    A need for my work machine, 5.45 mm, with a thick barrel length of 30 cm, with a double disc store, low-noise shooting device, double-sided safety lock, automatic safety on the trigger, adjustable stock and Picatinny bars for the front handle, collimator , optics, lamps, and target designators ...
    The ideal version of such weapons - the presence of removable barrel, standard and compact length for action in the premises. The presence of a removable barrel will complicate the construction and improvement costs. But it is cheaper to have one machine with two trunks than two machines of different sizes. We sometimes there are situations when we are forced to take on operations other than the standard AK-74M, small-sized weapons such as 9A-91 and low-noise, depending on the situation. Which often change during a single operation.

    So what he is saying properly translated is:

    I need for my work Rifle, 5.45 mm, with a heavy barrel length of 30 cm (which makes it AK-105 length), with a 60 round magazine, Suppressor, thumb operated selector on both sides of the weapon, trigger safety, length and height adjustable stock and Picatinny rails for the front mounted vertical pistol grip, top mounted collimator sight, top mounted optics, Torches, and laser target designators ...
    The ideal version of such weapons - Modular design with removable barrel, of standard and compact length barrels for action inside. The presence of a removable barrel will complicate the construction and increase costs. But it is cheaper overall to have one rifle with two different length barrels than two rifles of different sizes. We sometimes need different length weapons in different phases of a single operation.

    In other words taking an AK-12 with an added trigger safety with long and short heavy barrels would be his ideal weapon. When approaching an area the long barrel can be used for range and accuracy over longer distances, while operations inside a building can be conducted with a short barrel, perhaps with a built in suppressor to make it short and handy inside... and not too noisy to use.

    In other parts of the article he basically says he is interested in 5.45mm calibre models only, but I would think this is personal choice and having models in 7.62 x 39mm and even 5.56mm and 7.62 x 51mm makes a lot of sense and would be useful for other users.

    note with a red dot sight with x1 magnification for use inside the building will be accurate enough at very close range without adjusting the sights because the distances will be so small you should still get hits.

    Obviously if you plan to use the long barrel outside at various ranges you might sight the iron front sight to 300m-400m, while for the short barrel you might choose to simply bore sight it.

    Pretty sure I have read that article by Karden some time ago... the AK-12 seems to be his new favourite rifle.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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