Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Share
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:01 am

    How is it not modern? With a little systems development, the MiG-35 is perfectly competitive with the latest Euro-birds.
    In some ways, its future is more certain (AESA, Rafale aside, TVC, uprated engines).

    Sancho

    Posts : 5
    Points : 7
    Join date : 2012-12-19
    Location : Germany / India

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  Sancho on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:16 am

    TR1 wrote:How is it not modern? With a little systems development, the MiG-35 is perfectly competitive with the latest Euro-birds.
    In some ways, its future is more certain (AESA, Rafale aside, TVC, uprated engines).

    Materials, twin vertical tail, no intake ducts, no supercruise capabilities..., it's just a technically upgraded Mig 29 version, but remains with the old design and just like the F16 design, that has a limited future.
    You can upgrade certain techs, but not counter the design issues anymore and since India gets the best Russian AESAs and engines with TVC through MKI and FGFA, the Mig 35 capabilities couldn't stand out.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:10 am

    I generally agree about the not standing out part. Rafale is a good way to access France's latest, plus it is a good bird.
    However, the issues I see with buying the Rafale are as follows: Adding yet another bird to the inventory. India spent a long time working out Su-30 production, and they are trying to work the domestic industry via Tejas, plus have plans for FGFA and later AMCA. This is not even counting the upgraded birds that will stay around this decade and potentially longer. The Rafale deal is getting very expensive, plus Dassault does not seem too keen on HALs capabilities to produce the bird in a timely manner. SO India is going to be spending huge money, with production only appearing late in the decade, awfully close to when PAK-FA will be available, a bird with fundamentally better characteristics.
    IMO, India is spending too much, hurting domestic development, and further making the supply situation complex. IMO it would be better to put that money into getting Tejas right, continuing Su-30 production, and putting rest into FGFA/AMCA.

    Regarding MiG-29, the F-16 comparison is not right. The MiG-29M and other second gen airframes are fundamentally different from old MiG-29 - in shape, weight, and materials used. Why do you think they have such greatly improved airframe life, range, payload, etc.
    None of the Eurobirds have a practical supercuise capability.
    Now I am not going to argue the MiG-35s superiority over Rafale and Eurofighter, but it is competitive across the board, certainly modern. When price comes into play, we have another story...
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16191
    Points : 16822
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:52 am

    Some reports suggested that the Russian Mig 29Ks will have Zhuk AESA and more powerful engines, is that correct? If so are any reliable specs available and will these fighters use the 3D TVC capability of the Mig 35 as well?

    Hard to say.

    The Russian Air Force basically has to make the decision as to whether to splash out on the best available now and risk having less money for production PAK FAs... in other words buy Mig-35s now, they will be more capable now and will also remain useful for longer as a numbers aircraft, or they can go the cheap route and buy Mig-29M2s now and perhaps later on give them an upgrade to give them the capabilities of the Mig-35 eventually as the technology gets cheaper later on and then have more money to spend on PAK FAs when they are ready.

    Of course with the Mig-29Ks it basically shares the Mig-29M2 airframe but with a tailhook and folding wing, but the Navy has its own budget and its own goals.

    The Mig-29K is the eyes and spear of the navy... and because of the rather smaller numbers of aircraft they can probably afford to spend more per aircraft to make them more capable. But then of course they likely have future planes for a naval PAK FA for their new carriers and the Kuznetsov too.

    With regard to the MMRCA, the Mig had no choice for numerous reasons. It is simply is not a modern design anymore and it's future potential is very limited.

    I would very much disagree... there is no way of turning it into some sort of stealth fighter, but for a defending force a stealth fighter is not as useful as numbers of fighters linked in to a decent air defence network.

    Right now WVR combat is just too dangerous, and in BVR combat the Mig-29 early models were comparable to contemporary F-15s. With new missiles and new sensors there is no reason to think they would be at any great disadvantage against current non stealthy aircraft including the Euro canards.

    In the A2G field on the other side it is clearly inferior to the MKI, but offensive strikes against Chinese forces played an important role in the competition from the begining, which is why IAF wasn't too impressed by Mig 29SMT, nor of the Mig35 later.

    Actually the Mig-35 could carry 2,000 litre fuel tanks on its 5 pylon wing, which means it should be able to match the Flankers capacity to carry KAB-1500 1,500kg bombs. This suggests to me that the advantage of the Flanker was largely illusionary, being able to carry a heavier payload of weapons further is only important if you need that capacity. Not every aircraft in the Air Force needs to be strategic in range. Look at how elusive the Mig-21 was in tests... smaller and cheaper can often be better... or they should have called it HMRCA.

    That's why IAF initially prefered a cheap, but more multi role Mirage 2000, which would have kept logistics and training simple as well.

    What makes the M2K more multirole than the Mig-35?

    Second what makes the M2K that France refused to sell to India better than the Mig-35 that Russia was happy to sell to India?

    That's why it's not too surprising that the 2 fighters that offers the most future potential, (EF at least on paper)the most capable cruise missiles and also the best industrial offers for India. The one that offers the most in return came out as the winner and will form a great combo with the MKI.

    The EF might have all the potential in the world, but when the countries that developed it can't even be bothered developing it into a fully multirole aircraft even after it has entered service you have to ask who would get the priviledge of paying for that further development.

    The Rafale will probably end up costing more than the MKIs, so you end up with much more expensive eggs, after an extended delay that in no way changed anything very much.

    Ideally, India could have simply avoided all this MMRCA rubbish and bought some upgraded M2Ks and some upgraded Mig-29s and they would have ended up much better off, but the problem was that France refused to offer upgrades or more M2Ks, and so India ended up having to go through a time consuming and expensive charade to eventually pick the aircraft they were offered in the first place.

    All together much more of a circus than the Gorshkov deal... but it is pretty clear who now controls the media...

    With additional MKI orders, big upgrade packages coming and the FGFA co-development, Russia will remain to have a big stack in IAF anyway, so loosing MMRCA shouldn't be that much of a problem for Russia.

    No problem for Russia, but not so good for Mig.

    I would have thought the cheap and simple but fully multirole Mig-29SMT would have been an ideal replacement for the Mig-21s and Mig-27s and old model Mig-29s in Indian service. Give them the larger wing with 5 pylons on each from the Mig-35 and equip them with something like a Damocles pod for targeting and they will be as good for most missions as any other 4th gen aircraft. India has production rights to the third stage RD-33 engine so spare parts and maintainence shouldn't be a problem... buy the licence production rights for the parts yourself.

    Materials, twin vertical tail, no intake ducts, no supercruise capabilities...,

    Hahahaha... what materials does Typhoon or Rafale use that the Mig-35 does not?

    Twin tail? Sorry but what is the problem?

    The twin tails are positioned to get the vortex air coming off the leading edge root extensions. Replace it with a single vertical tail and that single tail would need to be enormous to reach clean undisturbed air... especially for high angle of attack manouvers.

    Super cruise!!!!

    You do realise supercruise is only useful at medium to high altitudes... places where non-stealth aircraft like the Mig-35 or Rafale or Typhoon can never just wander around in?

    I guess you think supercruising comes with some sort of magic shield that will protect those high flying aircraft from long range SAMs like S-400 which would eat Rafales for breakfast at 400km range if they want to fly high and straight.

    BTW the Mig-29 has a solid door that completely covers the air intake that is used for takeoffs and landings to stop stones entering the intake. Later model Migs have a grid to deflect stones that allows air to pass through so the above intake louvres are not needed, but that screen door could be designed to act as a radar blocker so that it could be deployed in flight if needed.

    it's just a technically upgraded Mig 29 version, but remains with the old design and just like the F16 design, that has a limited future.

    Rafale is just a twin engined upgraded Mirage 2000 with canards added. Its first name was Mirage 4000.
    Typhoon is just a twin engined Ye-8 modification of a Mig-21 from the 1960s.

    The only modern designs include the F-22 produced in tiny numbers and not likely to be put back into production and the F-35 whose basic design was compromised to allow a VSTOL model resulting in a more expensive aircraft of lower performance than what could have been designed.

    You can upgrade certain techs, but not counter the design issues anymore and since India gets the best Russian AESAs and engines with TVC through MKI and FGFA, the Mig 35 capabilities couldn't stand out.

    And how will the Rafale "stand out" amongst the upgraded Super Flanker and the FFGA?

    Is it really necessary to have another heavy expensive type, or perhaps what was really needed was a simple and much much cheaper numbers aircraft that could do the real work and be everywhere?

    It seems that India wants only super jets... such a mentality means real workhorses like A4s and F-16s and Buccaneers and F-4s are overlooked for shiny fast flash in the pan aircraft... Africa is full of Mig-21s when what they could probably have used more effectively was Su-25s, but who wants effective when you can have shiny and mach 2?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 798
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:13 pm

    Sancho wrote:
    Materials, twin vertical tail, no intake ducts, no supercruise capabilities..., it's just a technically upgraded Mig 29 version, but remains with the old design and just like the F16 design, that has a limited future.
    You can upgrade certain techs, but not counter the design issues anymore and since India gets the best Russian AESAs and engines with TVC through MKI and FGFA, the Mig 35 capabilities couldn't stand out.

    Old design ? well i think the Eurofighter isn't new either just look at the history of the Eurofighter programme.. i think it was dated back to some 1986.

    and it's well inappropriate to compare MiG-35 to Flanker as they occupy different role..in Russia that MiG-35 will play as the "Light fighter" type just like the US with F-15, F-16 combo.

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  ricky123 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:43 pm

    hasnt the mig35 got any orders from anybody uptill now ???
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

    ricky123 wrote:hasnt the mig35 got any orders from anybody uptill now ???

    No, but the second gen (MiG-29M) family and its naval derivatives have picked up a decent number of orders here and there.

    MiG-35 would be perfect for Belarus, but they don't have the money to buy any useful amounts.
    Kazakhstan is supposedly interested as well.
    And ofc, the RuMOD has supposedly included the bird in the SAP.

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:30 am

    TR1 wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:hasnt the mig35 got any orders from anybody uptill now ???

    No, but the second gen (MiG-29M) family and its naval derivatives have picked up a decent number of orders here and there.

    MiG-35 would be perfect for Belarus, but they don't have the money to buy any useful amounts.
    Kazakhstan is supposedly interested as well.
    And ofc, the RuMOD has supposedly included the bird in the SAP.
    why hasnt the russian airforce ordered a few . other countries will think when russia itself doesnt want it then it must not be good .. dunno
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:40 am

    ricky123 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:hasnt the mig35 got any orders from anybody uptill now ???

    No, but the second gen (MiG-29M) family and its naval derivatives have picked up a decent number of orders here and there.

    MiG-35 would be perfect for Belarus, but they don't have the money to buy any useful amounts.
    Kazakhstan is supposedly interested as well.
    And ofc, the RuMOD has supposedly included the bird in the SAP.
    why hasnt the russian airforce ordered a few . other countries will think when russia itself doesnt want it then it must not be good .. dunno

    Well, it is already ordering so many different types, plus money does not grow on trees.
    Like I said though, there are persistent rumors of AF getting a batch of MiG-35s sometime this decade.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16191
    Points : 16822
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:06 am

    Like I said though, there are persistent rumors of AF getting a batch of MiG-35s sometime this decade.

    AFAIK there is money in the budget for 48 aircraft that will either be Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s. I would suspect even if it was ordered now it would take a couple of years to finalise the design and get it into production and service.

    The first priority of the military was not fighter planes... it was C4IR, which has been largely dealt with with new command and control systems being tested as we speak.

    Another goal was to get modern weapons into service, which means modern missiles, which of course requires modern aircraft to use them. The Su-27P standard fighter needed an upgrade to carry most modern weapons including air to ground guided weapons, while the late model Mig-29C aircraft already had limited air to ground capacity even if there were no guided weapons in stock for them to use.

    Therefore it could be argued that the Flankers were in greater need of replacement, but it was also because with foreign orders the Flanker factories were ready to make planes and already had a skilled labour force ready to go.

    Of course with all these aircraft in production and or development (ie Su-35, Su-30SM, T-50, Su-34, Su-25 upgrades, Su-25 replacement) then it makes perfect sense to give some orders to Mig for Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    ricky123

    Posts : 222
    Points : 326
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:52 am

    i had liked to see some orders for mig35 .it is a beauty ... anyway does mig35 work on carriers ?
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10082
    Points : 10570
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:26 pm

    ricky123 wrote: ... anyway does mig35 work on carriers ?

    Yes, MiG-29K
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10082
    Points : 10570
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:18 pm

    George1 wrote:The legendary MiG

    Russian Ministry of Defense intends to form at least two squadrons of MiG-35s by 2015. Initially it was planned to sign the contract on delivery of MiG-35s to the Russian air forces in 2009, however that did not happen. MiG-35 aircraft will be manufactured in single-seat (MiG-35) and two-seat (MiG-35D) versions.

    According to the state defense order, four new MiG aircraft will be delivered to the military forces next year and the deliveries of first multi-role MiG-35 aircraft is scheduled for 2014. The first vehicle intended for Russian air forces has already been placed on the aircraft assembly jig.

    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5672
    Points : 6321
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:43 pm

    George1 wrote:
    George1 wrote:The legendary MiG

    Russian Ministry of Defense intends to form at least two squadrons of MiG-35s by 2015. Initially it was planned to sign the contract on delivery of MiG-35s to the Russian air forces in 2009, however that did not happen. MiG-35 aircraft will be manufactured in single-seat (MiG-35) and two-seat (MiG-35D) versions.

    According to the state defense order, four new MiG aircraft will be delivered to the military forces next year and the deliveries of first multi-role MiG-35 aircraft is scheduled for 2014. The first vehicle intended for Russian air forces has already been placed on the aircraft assembly jig.


    Finally excellent news for MIG-35

    Just great.

    Its funny we all slipped that article. dunno

    a89

    Posts : 105
    Points : 110
    Join date : 2013-01-09
    Location : Oxfordshire

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  a89 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:51 pm

    Last issue of Moscow Defence Brief contained a very interesting article of MiG-29 prospects. It states that RSK MiG kept a 250 million $ deposit paid by Algeria, and then sold the SMT to VVS for 50-60 billion. I had never read about the deposit, can someone confirm/add more data?

    mdb.cast.ru/mdb/6-2012/item3/article2/
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16191
    Points : 16822
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:06 am

    It very much depends on the contract... often initial deposits are not refundable as they are spent on setting up production and paying contractors... things that MIG doesn't get back either.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:42 pm

    a89 wrote:Last issue of Moscow Defence Brief contained a very interesting article of MiG-29 prospects. It states that RSK MiG kept a 250 million $ deposit paid by Algeria, and then sold the SMT to VVS for 50-60 billion. I had never read about the deposit, can someone confirm/add more data?

    mdb.cast.ru/mdb/6-2012/item3/article2/

    Yes these MiG´s were so poorly made Algeria sent them back, and a criminal case wase opened against MiG.

    "34 MiG-29SMT. However, in 2008 the contract of MiG-29 SMT was cancelled and the planes delivered were returned to Russia and exchanged with 16 Su-30MKA multirole fighters"

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16191
    Points : 16822
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:27 am

    Yes these MiG´s were so poorly made Algeria sent them back, and a criminal case wase opened against MiG.

    Lets not fall for that propaganda... if they were poorly made then the Russian AF would not have bought them.


    Very simply Algeria was offered Su-30s for the same price they had ordered Mig-29SMTs for... they were going to reject those Mig-29SMTs even if it was because they weren't painted the right colour.

    The official claim I saw was that the Mig-29SMTs were made of old air frames instead of newly made air frames... which begged the question of why they ordered Mig-29SMTs which is an upgrade instead of Mig-29M2s which are new builds.

    At the end of the day there was nothing wrong with the Migs, Sukhoi simply made them an offer they could not refuse.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  runaway on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Yes these MiG´s were so poorly made Algeria sent them back, and a criminal case wase opened against MiG.

    Lets not fall for that propaganda... if they were poorly made then the Russian AF would not have bought them.


    Very simply Algeria was offered Su-30s for the same price they had ordered Mig-29SMTs for... they were going to reject those Mig-29SMTs even if it was because they weren't painted the right colour.

    The official claim I saw was that the Mig-29SMTs were made of old air frames instead of newly made air frames... which begged the question of why they ordered Mig-29SMTs which is an upgrade instead of Mig-29M2s which are new builds.

    At the end of the day there was nothing wrong with the Migs, Sukhoi simply made them an offer they could not refuse.

    DefenseRussia opens criminal case over MiG fighters returned by Algeria

    Russia opens criminal case over MiG fighters returned by Algeria

    © Антон Денисов11:43 18/09/2009Related News
    Russian firm sues arms exporter for $15 mln over Algeria deal
    Russia to deliver engines for Indian MiG fighters
    MiG Corp. orders hit $2.8 bln, to grow by $1.5 bln - CEO
    Russia to buy back 24 fighters rejected by Algeria for $690 mln

    MOSCOW, September 18 (RIA Novosti) - Criminal charges have been laid against the top management of a company accused of providing low-quality equipment for MiG-29 fighters later rejected by Algeria, Russia's business daily Kommersant said on Friday.

    Musail Ismailov, chief of the Aviaremsnab company, and his deputy Alexander Kutumov are currently serving jail terms for similar offences. They were convicted for fraud in May after investigators determined the company used forged certificates and tags on old aviation equipment and sold it as new to the MiG company.

    Under the $14.3 million contract, Aviaremsnab was to supply MiG with new spare parts and equipment. The company received $1.7 million in advance payments for components made in 2005-2006, but received products manufactured between 1982 and 1996, with forged certificates.

    Some of the parts were to be shipped to the Polish air force, and others were to be used in the 24 MiG fighters that Algeria later refused to accept due to their "inferior quality."

    The fraud, however, had been uncovered before the components were installed.

    Russian arms export monopoly Rosoboronexport signed a $1.3 bln contract to deliver 28 one-seat MiG-29SMT fighters and six two-seat MiG-29UB combat trainers to Algeria in March 2006 as part of an $8 billion military cooperation agreement.

    However, after receiving 15 MiG fighters, Algeria in May 2007 refused further deliveries. Then in October 2007 it froze all payments stipulated in contracts with Russia, requiring that Moscow first take back the 15 MiG-29s due to their "inferior quality."

    The aircraft were eventually returned to Russia in April, and after thorough testing were approved for the service with the Russian Air Force.


    Well Gary, propaganda by ria? Dont be so hasty to dismiss everything critical as "propaganda".
    I like and have respect for Soviet/Russian military hardware, but i must be honest and be able to critisise when its called for.
    By the way, the Eurofighter its a huge and costly failure if anything, but this site is for Soviet/Rusian hardware, so here i can both praise and critizise them.




    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:57 pm

    There was no issue in performance at the end of the day - it was a debate over when the parts were produced.
    Could still be a criminal matter, the details are sketchy.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16191
    Points : 16822
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:00 am

    Well Gary, propaganda by ria? Dont be so hasty to dismiss everything critical as "propaganda".
    I like and have respect for Soviet/Russian military hardware, but i must be honest and be able to critisise when its called for.
    By the way, the Eurofighter its a huge and costly failure if anything, but this site is for Soviet/Rusian hardware, so here i can both praise and critizise them.

    Did you even read the article you posted?

    How does a subcontractor to MIG forging documents to sell old parts to MIG for the Algerian contract equate to your accusation that MIG can't make planes any more?

    If they were poorly made why would the Russian military accept them?

    They basically had a few counterfeit parts that were not brand new, which Algeria used as an excuse to end the contract... to find they were not new they must have had experts (likely Sukhoi ones) scour the aircraft parts looking for anomolies so they could reject the offer.


    At the end of the day the issue was that Algeria claimed it ordered brand new parts and some parts were found to be not new manufacture.

    Of course the definition of new is vague... when I buy something I really don't know when it was manufactured... it might be ten years old sitting in storage for all I know, but because it has never left storage it can be sold as new. Algeria took the recently manufactured definition of new it seems.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  runaway on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:Did you even read the article you posted?

    How does a subcontractor to MIG forging documents to sell old parts to MIG for the Algerian contract equate to your accusation that MIG can't make planes any more?

    If they were poorly made why would the Russian military accept them?

    Take it easy, did you read my post? I never said MiG can´t make planes. I said there were poorly made, by that i wasnt clear, i meant these part from subcontractors. Sorry about that.

    Still, MiG should have better controll for quality, and iam sure they have improved that now.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16191
    Points : 16822
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:48 am

    Still, MiG should have better controll for quality, and iam sure they have improved that now.

    Mig had a contract to supply planes to Algeria, they got some parts from a sub contractor that had official looking documents that later turned out to be forgeries and you are blaming MiG?

    Perhaps it is their fault... perhaps they should have telepaths in their ranks that can divine whether documents are fake or genuine... or perhaps they should just build planes for people who actually want them rather than those trying to wiggle out of contracts because they got a better offer.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5699
    Points : 5735
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:58 am

    I would not be surprised in the least if MiG "mislabeled" things as new when they were older make (even if fully functional, which is the case I believe). MiG had a lot of issues with mismanagment, lots of replacements, and ofc the typical post USSR situation.

    Low level corruption is so common through ought Russia (well, and high level) that someone cutting corners this way is almost to be assumed.
    I mean, they bought a used anchor for Kuznetsov....and pocketed the rest....:/
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  runaway on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:Low level corruption is so common through ought Russia (well, and high level) that someone cutting corners this way is almost to be assumed.
    I mean, they bought a used anchor for Kuznetsov....and pocketed the rest....:/

    Yes, and it never seems to end..

    MOSCOW, January 14 (RIA Novosti) – A district court in Russia’s Nizhny Novgorod Region has ordered the seizure of real estate from a former official found guilty of fraud involving fighter jets for Syria, according to the court’s website.

    Andrei Silyakov’s land plot and house qualified for confiscation because he had other places to live, the Vachsky court said on Friday without specifying the property’s value.

    But Silyakov, a former regional official at the Federal Reserves Agency, was not using the house anyway because he has been on the run since 2011.

    In 2006-2007 Silyakov illegally sold four airframes for MiG-31 fighter jets from the state reserves, investigators said earlier.

    The buyer was Nizhny Novgorod’s Sokol aircraft maker that was contracted to supply the jets to the Syrian Air Force, media reported in 2010.

    Silyakov managed to sell the airframes – which cost 115 million rubles each ($3.8 million) – to a firm he controlled for 153 rubles ($5) apiece. He later resold them to the Sokol plant for 4 million rubles ($130,000).

    He was also accused of swindling 35,000 tons of fuel oil through similar machinations.

    The official pleaded not guilty but was convicted of fraud and sentenced to ten years and eight months in prison in 2011. He disappeared days before the verdict and remains on the run.

    Total damages in the case were estimated at 1.3 billion rubles, but the court only sentenced Silyakov to a fine of 315 million rubles ($10 million).

    The airframes were never turned into jets for Syria and remain on Sokol's premises, Kommersant said on Monday.


    Sponsored content

    Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:39 am