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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

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    Stalingradcommando

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    Merkava IV APS Trophy system vs AT missiles

    Post  Stalingradcommando on Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:17 am

    Well, from some days I`ve been having a discussing on the internet about the Merkava Mk4 tank and also our T90 tank. This guy is a close friend of mine but I am kinda sick of hearing always things like how good the Merkava really is or some other things like "Merkava`s front armor can not be penetrated by any existing AT weapon".
    I know for a fact that several Merkavas were destroyed or heavilly damaged by our AT weapons during the 2006 Lebbanon war. What I am asking now is the link of any reliable claiming this source or even some photos of Merkavas hit by
    AT-15`s or RPG29`s.
    I am also tying to find any structural problems with the Merkava. What I got until now is it`s engine which is placed in front of the crew compartiment. This may give it extra crew protection, but it can easily be knocked out in a tank to tank engagement or even by any sophisticated AT weapon. This guy continues claiming that the Merkava`s frontal armor is so thick that any weapon can not penetrate it. Is there any kind of way that I can prove him wrong (again)  Question Question
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    solo.13mmfmj

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    Look at this

    Post  solo.13mmfmj on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:52 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdF3_r2KKIY&feature=related
    The back door is a weaknes(even to old rpg stuf) that an anti-tank team can use.
    Modern anti-tank weapons can take out any tank.
    Is a heavy tank good only in desert areas.

    Stalingradcommando

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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Stalingradcommando on Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:31 pm

    OK, I don`t know if this is really the right place to post this, so If it isn`t feel free to delete my post
    I`ve been writing an an article about the advantages and disadvantages of modern MBT`s.
    This is a pre-definitive version of it.

    challenger 2


    advanatages:
    1-This tank is marketed as having the most advanced composite armour in the world today. It uses 2nd gen. Chobrum armor also known as "Dorchester"
    2-Very high reliability. The challeger is advaertised as the world`s more reliable MBT today*
    capability at all
    disadvantages:
    1-lower mobility and speed compared to it`s counterparts
    both advantage and disadvantage:
    1-Unlike many modern MBT`s the Challeger uses a longer riffled gun which has great accuracy at long ranges and can also fire HESH rounds. But it`s gun is less effective when firing specific ammo like APFSDS and has no ATGM capability at all

    Leclerc

    advantages
    1-It is the most networked tank in the world today
    2-Modular armor design, allowing it to use multiple types of armor including NERA which makes it better protected againts tandem shaped HEAT warheads
    3-high mobility and speed thanks to it`s light weight and 1500hp disel engine
    4-A very long gun giving it great accuracy at long distances
    disadvantages
    1-it is the owrld most expensive MBT
    2-Very unreliable tank. It requies more maintenance than every other MBT
    3-It needs a cooling system to operate in high-temerature environments
    both advantage and disadvantage:
    1-autoloader: The Leclerc autoloader is as fast as a human loader, but it`s rounds are carried inside the turret/hull and this may result in deteonating ammunition if turret is penetrated. Autoloader can not unload an already loaded round. Autoloader has continium of fire, but it can not unload an already loaded round

    T80

    advantages:
    1-exceptional mobility and speed (both off-road and on road) thanks to it`s light weight and powerful engine. In terms of mobility the T80 is the undisputed champion of today`s MBT
    2-dynamic protection: Kontack-5 or Relikt/Kaktus depending on version (this does not apply to all T80`s)
    3-active protection systems (Drozd-1, Drozd-2 or Arena + Shtora)* this does not apply to all T80`s
    4-firepower: The T80 has a longer and lager gun than most western MBT`s today and an extremly long gun range thanks to it`s ATGM capability
    5-cheap overall price
    6-High volume/armor ratio
    7-low silouette: The T80 is harder to see and to hit
    disadvantages:
    1-It can cover a short road distance (about 355km without external deposits)
    2-No satellite navigation or networking
    both advantage and disadvantage:
    1-1-Autoloader: the autoloader greatly reduces weight and size. The autoloader has continum of fire and unlike human loaders and it`s fire rate does not decrease over time, as a human loader gets tired. The autoloader can not unload an already loaded round. The autoloader`s reserve rounds are carried inside the lower part the hull, unseparated from the crew and this may result in deteonating ammunition if hull is penetrated
    2-Multi-fuel Trubine engine which is more reliable than diesel ones and can work with all types of fuel, but consumes much more and overheats in hot environements

    T90

    advantages;
    1-active/passive protecion systems (shtora and arena)
    2-built-in dynamic protection (ERA)
    3-firepower: The T90 has a longer and lager gun than most western MBT`s today and an extremly long gun range thanks to it`s ATGM capability. The T90`s gun can fire the latest tank ammunitions beeing produced in Russia
    4-lower price than ounterparts
    5-Great reliability even in extreme weather conditions
    6-high volume/armor ratio
    7-low silouette: The T80 is harder to see and to hit
    disadvantages:
    1-No satellite navigation or networking*
    both advantage and disadvantage:
    1-Autoloader: the autoloader greatly reduces weight and size. The autoloader has continum of fire and unlike human loaders and it`s fire rate does not decrease over time, as a human loader gets tired. The autoloader can not unload an already loaded round. The autoloader`s reserve rounds are carried inside the lower part the hull, unseparated from the crew and this may result in deteonating ammunition if hull is penetrated

    Merkava MK4

    advantages:
    1-it has the best crew protection of all MBT`s today (sometimes even called the world safest tank)
    2-can carry 4 infantry troops/medics or even ammuntion inside inside. On a few words Merkava can act like an IFV too
    3-Trophy active protection system
    4-ATGM capability
    5-It has a 60mm mortar
    6-Good reliability
    Disadvantages
    1-very bigg and heavy tank, limiting it`s mobility*
    Both advantage and disadvantage:
    1-engine is placed in front of the crew compartiment. This gives the tank extra crew protection, but may result on stopping the tank on it`s tracks if hit during a tank vs tank combat
    2-It has a small hatch in the back of the tank. This makes evacuation faster, but it`s easier to penetrate by RPG`s

    Leo2

    advantages
    1-is a reliable MBT
    2-Offers great protection against IED`s
    3-It offers great mobility, for a tank of it`s class
    4-A very powerful and advanced gun, combined with high quality ammunition (this applies only to the Leo2A6 version with L55 gun)
    Disadvatages:
    1-most of its ammo stored in the front of the turret an it doesn't have blow out panels. This may result in ammunition detonation if turret is penetrated


    M1 Abrams

    Advantages:
    1-It`s the most battle proven and more sucsessful MBT yet
    2-It has a very advanced firing system and target aqqustion devices
    3-very reliable frontal armor
    disadvantages:
    1-very weak side and rear armor (as demonstrated in Iraq)
    2-the second tracking unit of the tank is not protected against MG fire. This could result on a power failure of the tank
    3-relativly short range
    both advantage and disadvantage:
    1-Trubine engine which is more reliable than diesel ones and can work with all types of fuel, but consumes much more
    2-depleted uranium mesh insertion in it`s armor which boost it`s protection, but is radioactive and may cause diseas to the crew when they spend too much times inside the tank

    NOTES:
    1-Althought the Challeger is advertised as a highly rliable tank, it`s ealier version has experienced significant problems during military exercises in desert conditions
    2-There is an stallite communication and networking system for both T90 and T80, but it has not been incorporated in the mainstream versions yet
    3-An similar round to a gun launched ATGM for the Abrams is under development, but I did not include it since it`s not ready yet
    4-The Abrmas composite materiels are currently declassified
    5-The M1 has not destroyed much inferor older tanks such as Russian T55, T62 or a few downgraded T72 models which is also caused by a lot of other factors such as tank crew training, lack of thermal cameras, use of obsolete ammunition, downgraded armor and weapons systems etc
    6-I did not include NBC protection, as well as thermal cameras, nightvision, rangefinders, stabilsers etc since every MBT today has them
    7-I did not include the Ukrainian T84, because it would have been almost the same thing as the t80


    Last edited by George1 on Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:21 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : just adjusting some little mistakes and adding other info + adding a small poll)
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    solo.13mmfmj

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  solo.13mmfmj on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:29 am

    This site contains informations about military hardware including tanks:
    http://www.military-today.com/
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:46 am

    Please provide a link to the OP article or this thread will be closed.
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    solo.13mmfmj

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  solo.13mmfmj on Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:35 am

    "Please provide a link to the OP article or this thread will be closed"
    I don't understand what you men.

    Stalingradcommando

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Stalingradcommando on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:59 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Please provide a link to the OP article or this thread will be closed.

    There is no link. I wrote this article myself and added a few pictures from the web
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:11 pm

    Stalingradcommando wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:Please provide a link to the OP article or this thread will be closed.

    There is no link. I wrote this article myself and added a few pictures from the web

    Good job, it will remain.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:36 pm

    mmmm, that leopard 2A6 is gorgeous.

    Saw one not long ago actually. I was driving with my parents back from Manitoba to Calgary, and when in Saskatchewan, I noticed that there was a military transport train sitting on the side of the road, and on the tracks was a carriage carrying Leopard 2's and artillery pieces.
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    milky_candy_sugar

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:34 am

    Nice job!! Interesting comparison


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    Austin

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:02 am

    A nice comparison between the new T-90M , Abrams M1A2SEP and Leopard ( use translator )

    http://www.zelezki.ru/articles/1690-moderniz.html?start=2
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:21 pm

    Good read, love that Tank hit percentage graph. According to that, a Tank round from a modern tank has over a 60% chance of hitting the Turret of a tank, which is where it's usually thickest. That's only better for the tank crews.
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    IronsightSniper

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    A nice comparison between the new T-90M , Abrams M1A2SEP and Leopard

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:31 pm

    T-80 Manual

    T-72 manual

    T-54 manual

    They're all in Russian however pale
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    Viktor

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:39 pm

    Now that T-95 has apparently gone for redesign Im mutch interested in future India tank they are about to design since Russia

    offered them codevelopment.

    Austin. India signed for T-90M version licence production Im I right?

    Austin

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:23 pm

    Viktor wrote:Now that T-95 has apparently gone for redesign Im mutch interested in future India tank they are about to design since Russia

    T-95 has been cancelled straight and straight , A new design is underdevelopment apparently in an interview the designer says it will be a electric tank.

    You can find the interview here , check the last few questions
    http://vpk.name/news/47087_u_menya_net_celi_prokatitsya_na_tanke__oleg_sienko_generalnyii_direktor_oao_npk_uralvagonzavod.html

    India is working on its own FMBT , it will be in the 40 T class tank or more in T series weight.

    offered them codevelopment.

    Not sure co-development is possible , but it is it would reduce the unit cost of each tank.

    Austin. India signed for T-90M version licence production Im I right?

    India signed an agreement in various phase to buy , built via CKD and lic produce T-90 tank with complete TOT and design document provided , it is not of any specific T-90 version , but considering the order is for 1600 Tanks what even Russian Army develops for T-90 will slowly get incorporated in Indian version.

    I just hope they build the new T-90M version.
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    Viktor

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:58 pm

    Austin wrote:
    So do you mean Chally and Leopard carry loose ammo and they do not have blow off panel and no seperation of ammo and crew.


    Same goes for Lecler

    http://tinypic.com/r/2edbojp/7
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    nightcrawler

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    Israel Ground Forces

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:36 am

    http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/03/01/windbreaker-thwarts-missile-fired-at-idf-tank/


    The anti-tank missile that was fired towards the tank was thwarted by the Windbreaker active missile protection system, which was used for the first time during operational activity. The missile exploded at a safe distance from the tank, preventing damage, the army said. Two RPG's simultaneously:



    Now the Russian part:
    Wikipedia:
    On 12 November 2009, Ph.D. Vladimir Korenkov, who led Russian state unitary enterprise “Basalt” from 2000 to 2009, stated that “The Israeli system of active protection of tanks, “Trophy”, as any other similar systems, can be evaded”. One of the activities of this enterprise was to develop rocket-propelled grenades, designed to destroy modern armament. The rocket-propelled grenade RPG-30, according to Vladimir Korenkov, is designed to overcome these tank defense systems. "All the existing active protection systems in the world share the same idea. This is a radar homing at some distance, close or far, to destroy the target with a warhead that creates fragment stream and explosive field. These systems have common flaws. First of all, the duty cycle, i.e. the time interval of the system response to the threat. RPG-30 easily defeats such a protection system. There is a smaller diameter precursor round in addition to the main round. This precursor acts as a false target spoofing the APS into engaging it and allowing the main round (following the precursor after a slight delay) a clear path to the target, while the APS is stuck in the 0.2 - 0.4 second delay needed to start its next engagement. This time interval is sufficient for defeating the Israeli system", said Vladimir Korenkov.
    http://www.btvt.narod.ru/3/kaz_drozd.htm



    Awaiting your comments...
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:38 am

    If Trophy/Windbreaker is able to simultaneously engage 2 munitions at once, there may be a possibility that the RPG-30 will simply flop.
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    GarryB

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:43 am

    If Trophy/Windbreaker is able to simultaneously engage 2 munitions at
    once, there may be a possibility that the RPG-30 will simply flop.

    I don't know very much about the system or how it works but any system can be dealt with.

    In the late 1980s early 1990s the Bulgarians and Russians got together and developed jammer shells for 122mm artillery that could be fired into enemy lines and would jam radio communication over a specific range of frequencies for about 2km around where the shell landed for an hour or so.

    Wouldn't take much to develop a chaff shell or jammer shell to interfere with how the Trophy detects and tracks targets... and of course you can always just fire more rockets at it.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:58 am

    Jammer rounds has been in existence for a long time, hell, may as well try to upgrade it into EMP shells. But whens the last time you saw counter-Israeli forces using anything modern eh? But yeah, rocket spam should work.

    Austin

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    Russian Tanks ERA and APS

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:34 pm

    The Trophy seems to be a nice Active Defence System and last week it managed to kill a RPG in real combat , from the video below it seems to have quick reload capability

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    GarryB

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:52 am

    But whens the last time you saw counter-Israeli forces using anything modern eh?

    I never see because I never look... not really interested to be honest...

    But have read lots of claims of the use of RPG-29s and Kornets from juice fanbois, so modern stuff does seem to get to the front line there occasionally.

    Obviously not just any jammer rounds would do, you would have to learn about the Trophy system and find out what frequency its detection systems operate at and all its important features and then base a jammer on that...
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:47 am

    Edge of Drozd over Trophy:
    The system cannot work against tandem warheads (rpg-29/30/32). The first "lighter" rocket has the signature and trajectory identical to the bigger one, thus fools these systems. Trophy detects the first rocket and fires a blast, destroying the target, but the blast is controlled in order to not cause collateral damages, and the rests do nothing against the second target, wich impacts. This cannot be solved. Drozd, in fact was better against these launchers because its "shotgun" did not care and destroyed everything.
    However on the other side Trophy can be reloaded as I posted earlier.
    @IronsightSniper
    Do you have any cost estimate of the Trophy system?
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:23 am

    GarryB wrote:
    But whens the last time you saw counter-Israeli forces using anything modern eh?

    I never see because I never look... not really interested to be honest...

    But have read lots of claims of the use of RPG-29s and Kornets from juice fanbois, so modern stuff does seem to get to the front line there occasionally.

    Obviously not just any jammer rounds would do, you would have to learn about the Trophy system and find out what frequency its detection systems operate at and all its important features and then base a jammer on that...

    RPG-29s are powerful but outdated, cold war 80s stuff. Kornet's really the only new kid on the block for a long time. Doubt we'll see any "effective" counter-counter measure v.s. modern APS for maybe 10 years.

    According to here:

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/trophy.htm

    Trophy costs about $500,000 USD a unit.
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    Viktor

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    Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Neither the DRODZ or ARENA can deal with diving top attack weapons like Javelin, though nakidka should make targeting in the fire and forget mode difficult if not impossible.

    Would expect the companies that make each system are working on new models that protect against a wider range of threats.

    Javelin has top dive angle of about 45° so I think it is possible for ARENA or Drozd to engage it.


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