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    [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

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    Werewolf
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:22 pm


    APS Afghanistan launcher.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  mutantsushi on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:30 pm

    [quote="KoTeMoRe"]
    Cyberspec wrote:Apparently, at least one country is still interested in the "Atom"
    The following is from February but I don't recall seeing it mentioned here...
    "Uralvagonzavod" will develop the BMP "Atom" without the participation of France
    Russia continues to work on the project, BMP-"Atom" with a new partner, said the General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko at the arms exhibition IDEX–2015.
    "We have a new partner, we are moving towards the goal of creating a finished product for a specific country" said Sienko.
    I know that one. The country however isn't China but more than probably India.
    Why either of them?  What program of India's would this be?  If they can't immediately buy it/put it into production, might as well offer Boomerang.
    ATOM always seemed aimed at middle east, particularly UAE (wanting some commonality with French platforms, like BMP-3 turret but not so much platform)

    UAE's last IDEX show would seem to confirm Russian-turreted APC/IFV project.  They show "new" Enigmavehicle with BMP-3 turret, with Russia also exhibiting AU-220M turret(57mm) announcing agreement to integrate that.  Obviously they would be happy to offer either of them, with ultimate decision in customer's hands.  The "new" Engima vehicle looks suspiciously like a modification of Serbian Laza2r, which had shown up at previous IDEX but not this one (no point if UAE licenced design for their own derivative) ...A decent choice to quickly replace French chassis now impeded by sanctions/new cold war political environment vs. Russia (sanctions don't legally apply to any existing contracts, but political pressure still exists ala Mistral).  

    Iraq also has traditional links to Serbia/Yugoslavia, and (not sure) have decent relations with UAE(unlike with Saudis, Qataris) , so I wouldn't be surprised if they were also customer for such a product.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:56 am

    xeno wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9

    What happened? Any source? Thanks...

    On various blogs there are claims about the vehicles having issues with the Chinese sources Deutz engines. They aren't producing the 400+ Pk's they're rated at 360 something which makes the vehicles "lardy". There are also issues with the stabilization of the 2A72 copy and the rounds err slightly on the sides needing rezeroing often...

    Will try to find it again.

    Mutantsushi:

    India has been in the lurking for a decent wheeled substitute and expects to dump the current BTR fleet to Blangladesh who doesn't seem to be satiated by its recent purchases.
    The Emirati demands are in a different league than the current Boomerang offer. The idea of the Enigma is one of clear Western underpinings (watch the suspension chosen) while that commonality has ceased with the Boomerang (which employs classic solution from BTR90 only doubled). That was a mistake I made prior to the revealing. I thought that the VBCI was just "bought of the shelf". It isn't the case. Then look at the ramp and lowering mechanism. It is totally different from the solutions made by both Nexter and KMZ. However when you look at Iveco's VBPT/Super AV it's all there, even the integration of the damn turret.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:26 pm

    Why either of them?  What program of India's would this be?  If they can't immediately buy it/put it into production, might as well offer Boomerang.
    ATOM always seemed aimed at middle east, particularly UAE (wanting some commonality with French platforms, like BMP-3 turret but not so much platform)

    AFAIK the ATOM was designed as a wheeled vehicle the Russians could export to their allies and French customers without having to sell the Boomerang. Now that the French partners are out of the picture it seems to be sensible to continue development of the ATOM as a vehicle that can be exported without Russian Army approval... I do suspect any 57mm gun armed version will be armed with the A-220 system and S-60 gun rather than the new weapon being developed.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:35 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    HE-frag Warheads of APS Afghanistan is designation is ZUOF-24G SB1.

    what caliber ? 152mm ?

    and the image doesn't appear.


    The HE Frag warheads are for the active protection system called Afghanistan... they are definitely not 152mm calibre and wont be 125mm either... they seem to be an evolution of Drozd with fixed tube launched HE frag munitions to intercept incoming threats like missiles and rockets and APFSDS rounds...


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:34 pm

    India can be first foreign buyer of "Armata"

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150605/1068373773.html

    MOSCOW, 5 Dec — RIA Novosti. India is interested in buying Russian military generation platform "Armata" or its individual components for further processing tank, said in an interview with the Agency Sputnik the Indian expert of the analytical center Gateway House Samir Patil.
    He commented on the words of the Russian presidential aide on military-technical cooperation Vladimir Kozhin, who said yesterday that India, China and Southeast Asia have shown interest in the new models of Russian armored vehicles, primarily to the tank "Armata".
    "India has plans to develop its own tank — Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). And I think, if the budget allows, India can purchase the "Armata", or at least some of the components for study and future use when creating your own tank," said Patil.
    In addition, according to him, about the benefits of the acquisition of the tank "Armata" says that this platform is suitable for creating a range of combat vehicles.

    "And I think India would be interested in purchasing such a fighting platform for the army," — said the Agency interlocutor.
    The expert also did not rule out the possibility of joint development of the necessary Indian "tank of the future".
    "Russia is the only country with which India maintains joint development of weapons. These projects combat aircraft of the fifth generation (PAK FA) and transport aircraft (MTS Multipurpose transport aircraft"). I think that India will be interested in the possibility of establishing a joint venture for the development of a new tank because it corresponds to the initiative of Prime Minister modi's "Make in India". This program is aimed at finding foreign partners for joint development and production", said Patil.
    The main feature of the tank is a new generation of T-14 "Armata" is its layout. The entire crew of the tank is placed in the case and protected in an armored capsule. Combat vehicle equipped with active protection system which secures the destruction of the incoming anti-tank ammunition in automatic mode without human intervention.
    The level robotics platform "Armata" suggests that as additional special elements you can create fighting machines that operate without human presence on Board.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:49 pm

    "India has plans to develop its own tank — Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). And I think, if the budget allows, India can purchase the "Armata", or at least some of the components for study and future use when creating your own tank," said Patil.

    That is exactly why they would want a modern tank in their fleet, to try to safe their failed project and to develope their MIC.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:58 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    "India has plans to develop its own tank — Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). And I think, if the budget allows, India can purchase the "Armata", or at least some of the components for study and future use when creating your own tank," said Patil.

    That is exactly why they would want a modern tank in their fleet, to try to safe their failed project and to develope their MIC.

    There´s nothing wrong with this as long as Russian factories and R&D keep running.
    Before Indians get their Armata, Russia will have not T-14 but T-34-Relsotron Smile

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:12 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    "India has plans to develop its own tank — Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). And I think, if the budget allows, India can purchase the "Armata", or at least some of the components for study and future use when creating your own tank," said Patil.

    That is exactly why they would want a modern tank in their fleet, to try to safe their failed project and to develope their MIC.

    There´s nothing wrong with this as long as Russian factories and R&D keep running.
    Before Indians get their Armata, Russia will have not T-14 but T-34-Relsotron  Smile

    Of course there is something wrong with this. If India wants a modern tank to sustain and build up their own Tank manufactoring industry then they should ask the russians for help in R&D and not trying to cut short by trying to reverse engineers with their 30-40 years behind state of the art tank manufactoring. Russia shouldn't be stupid and sell such crucial technology to anyone at least not as long their are no new T-34's in prospect or a vast upgrade for T-14.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:03 pm

    Started mass production of ceramics for armor "Armata"

    Serial production amor elements for the protection of the newest fighting vehicles began in Novosibirsk, reports TASS with reference to head of the Bureau of armor ceramics developer company "NEVZ-ceramics" Andrew Nikitin

    "This year the test ceramic-amor completed, all specifications have been confirmed. Now began mass production," said Nikitin on the sidelines of the 3rd international forum "TechnoProm".

    The interlocutor of Agency has not specified the volume of production. According to him, the ceramic armor elements will be used for the machines on the platform "Armata", "Kurganets" and "boomerang", and the technique demonstrated in the Victory parade in Moscow, was already equipped with them.

    Nikitin noted that the plate of ceramic-amor on a metal substrate to improve protection of combat vehicle one and a half compared with all-metal counterparts.

    "For example, armor plate height 24 mm is able to withstand bullets caliber 14.5 mm," - said the interlocutor of the Agency. Thus, according to him, reduced vehicle weight and ground pressure, which increases the ceramic-amor

    http://vpk-news.ru/news/25551


    Werewolf wrote: Something wrong with this. If India wants a modern tank to sustain and build up their own Tank manufactoring industry then they should ask the russians for help in R&D and not trying to cut short by trying to reverse engineers with their 30-40 years behind state of the art tank manufactoring. Russia shouldn't be stupid and sell such crucial technology to anyone at least not as long their are no new T-34's in prospect or a vast upgrade for T-14.

    I believe you have pessimistic perception of situation. Su-30MKI or Brahmos examples prove this is not necessarily true. IMHO both sides benefited nicely. Money for Su-30MKI helped to build Su-35...

    T-34 is not in plans of course but was my visualization to support thesis that when India will be happily producing T-14 Russia will be far ahead with own Armor.




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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  mutantsushi on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:03 pm

    Sorry, but isn't this Indian "FICV" an IFV project?  And also supposed to be fully amphibious?
    So they wouldn't seem be interested in licencing "tank" designs for it, although Kurganets would seem potentially appropriate.
    Armata seems more of a basis for any future replacement for T-90...but I'm not sure if they have such a program yet?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:08 pm

    mutantsushi wrote:Sorry, but isn't this Indian "FICV" an IFV project?  And also supposed to be fully amphibious?
    So they wouldn't seem be interested in licencing "tank" designs for it, although Kurganets would seem potentially appropriate.
    Armata seems more of a basis for any future replacement for T-90...but I'm not sure if they have such a program yet?

    FICV is an ICV indeed. But wheeled and tracked.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:19 pm

    mutantsushi wrote:Sorry, but isn't this Indian "FICV" an IFV project?  And also supposed to be fully amphibious?
    So they wouldn't seem be interested in licencing "tank" designs for it, although Kurganets would seem potentially appropriate.
    Armata seems more of a basis for any future replacement for T-90...but I'm not sure if they have such a program yet?

    earlier in this thread was info about addons to make Armata swim :-) but interest from Indian side is true regardless for what they need it.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:37 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    I believe you have pessimistic perception of situation. Su-30MKI or Brahmos examples prove this is not necessarily true. IMHO both sides benefited nicely. Money for Su-30MKI helped to build Su-35...

    T-34 is not in plans of course but was my visualization to support thesis that when India will be happily producing T-14 Russia will be far ahead with own Armor.

    Of course i am pessimistic when hearing such news. This isn't some non important technology to an Allied country, this is  India which is hardly lobbied by Western countries to be any Russian and Anti-Sino. If the Indians want a good tank and want progression with their failed project they can participate and ask for R&D on basis of Prorif-2 which is today among the best if not the best protected tank with the highest mobility.

    Money is cheap when national security can be comprimized. Whenever i hear that Russia is supplying Su-35, S-400/300, Ka-52, T-14, or any PKO/PVO systems that is a concern for me, based on such events like UK buying russian T-80U,MSTA-S and K5 via Morocco. If the West wants progression in fields it holds no experience and technologies they should do it like US did out of necessity. Buying cooperation and patents of Kontakt-1 related technology to make ARAT ERA for Abrams tanks.

    Those technologies above and more are above what the West can produce right now, so yes i am pessimistic when hearing of exports of such technologies.


    PS: Your signatures always make me laugh. Laughing

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:03 pm

    Russia could cooperate with India but directly selling them the Armata (even in five to ten years) would not be the smartest decision. We already know that the T-14's Western equivalent (next-gen Leo) is *at least* 15 years away, and as such Armata should be valued and protected until then. India could maybe get information on the APS, next-generation etc, but not the components themselves. - Unless they sign an agreement to say, build Armata chassis for Russia or something like that. 

    Russia is ahead of the game right now, they need to keep it this way. 

    (M1A3 is coming in around 10 years but will only be a minor upgrade comprising of a diesel engine, improved armor, and possible a new FCS. It will not be a threat to Armata.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:02 am

    Werewolf wrote: Of course i am pessimistic when hearing such news. This isn't some non important technology to an Allied country, this is  India which is hardly lobbied by Western countries to be any Russian and Anti-Sino. If the Indians want a good tank and want progression with their failed project they can participate and ask for R&D on basis of Prorif-2 which is today among the best if not the best protected tank with the highest mobility.

    Money is cheap when national security can be comprimized. Whenever i hear that Russia is supplying Su-35, S-400/300, Ka-52, T-14, or any PKO/PVO systems that is a concern for me, based on such events like UK buying russian T-80U,MSTA-S and K5 via Morocco. If the West wants progression in fields it holds no experience and technologies they should do it like US did out of necessity. Buying cooperation and patents of Kontakt-1 related technology to make ARAT ERA for Abrams tanks.

    Those technologies above and more are above what the West can produce right now, so yes i am pessimistic when hearing of exports of such technologies.

    Technologies have one constant - pace of changes: today new tomorrow obsolete. I do not think Russia would sell best in breed stuff for Russian Army. But as you mentioned in National Security issues short investment money is not most important. However is Armata localization in couple of years can bring India closer to Russo-Chinese partnership and say extra 160bln/m3 / year of gas via safe route via China. Not ot mention common production of Superjets/cars or other goods to 3rd markets. Then this makes sense



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    If you said quality of my posts is super I wouldn´t mind either Smile BTW accidentally i found Pindos Mountains in Greece but Zhyrinovski made me spill coffee on keyboard. I had to add it Smile

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:08 am

    Mike E wrote:Russia could cooperate with India but directly selling them the Armata (even in five to ten years) would not be the smartest decision. We already know that the T-14's Western equivalent (next-gen Leo) is *at least* 15 years away, and as such Armata should be valued and protected until then. India could maybe get information on the APS, next-generation etc, but not the components themselves. - Unless they sign an agreement to say, build Armata chassis for Russia or something like that. 

    Russia is ahead of the game right now, they need to keep it this way. 

    (M1A3 is coming in around 10 years but will only be a minor upgrade comprising of a diesel engine, improved armor, and possible a new FCS. It will not be a threat to Armata.

    I guess there will be Armata-E option before any export contract is inked and delivered. In geopolitics there is no love only national interests and in Russia´s best interest in keep India on BRICS/SCO side.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:50 am

    Mike E wrote:Russia could cooperate with India but directly selling them the Armata (even in five to ten years) would not be the smartest decision. We already know that the T-14's Western equivalent (next-gen Leo) is *at least* 15 years away, and as such Armata should be valued and protected until then. India could maybe get information on the APS, next-generation etc, but not the components themselves. - Unless they sign an agreement to say, build Armata chassis for Russia or something like that. 

    Russia is ahead of the game right now, they need to keep it this way. 

    (M1A3 is coming in around 10 years but will only be a minor upgrade comprising of a diesel engine, improved armor, and possible a new FCS. It will not be a threat to Armata.

    Russia should treat the T-14 like the US treats the F-22 Raptor. Russia should treat the PAK-FA this way as well. India can
    go an develop its own super duper tech. I am sick and tired to listening to all the Russia bashing over Russia's "non delivery" of
    the two-seater PAK-FA to India and the routine claim that India paid for the development of the PAK-FA.

    Countries are allowed to have special status equipment which they do not sell for national security reasons. There is
    no right of any other country to buy this equipment. The T-90MS is good enough for export. The SU series of jets
    are good enough for export as well.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:02 am

    kvs wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Russia could cooperate with India but directly selling them the Armata (even in five to ten years) would not be the smartest decision. We already know that the T-14's Western equivalent (next-gen Leo) is *at least* 15 years away, and as such Armata should be valued and protected until then. India could maybe get information on the APS, next-generation etc, but not the components themselves. - Unless they sign an agreement to say, build Armata chassis for Russia or something like that. 

    Russia is ahead of the game right now, they need to keep it this way. 

    (M1A3 is coming in around 10 years but will only be a minor upgrade comprising of a diesel engine, improved armor, and possible a new FCS. It will not be a threat to Armata.

    Russia should treat the T-14 like the US treats the F-22 Raptor.   Russia should treat the PAK-FA this way as well.   India can
    go an develop its own super duper tech.   I am sick and tired to listening to all the Russia bashing over Russia's "non delivery" of
    the two-seater PAK-FA to India and the routine claim that India paid for the development of the PAK-FA.  

    Countries are allowed to have special status equipment which they do not sell for national security reasons.   There is
    no right of any other country to buy this equipment.   The T-90MS is good enough for export.   The SU series of jets
    are good enough for export as well.

    2nd this.

    Not only is T-90MS already better than anything the west can offer for export also than most of what NATO has in its own service, but also Sukhoi export jets are also much better than what the West offers for Export, in technology wise aswell as performance wise, but i guess you should buying M1A1H which are on the level of T-72B or T-80U standards of protection with inferior mobility and durability, because all operators of those M1A1 export models seam to enjoy how advanced technology of these beasts is, so they change them for T-72M monkey models due their ineffectivity on the battlefield. Lack of ammunition is kind of a cripplying effect in urban warfare, but unless you are not planing shooting on Ironman with KE penetrators you are better suited wth even MonkeyModel 72's firing HE-Frag ammunition against US incenstous terrorists in urban warfare.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:36 am

    Werewolf wrote: but unless you are not planing shooting on Ironman with KE penetrators you are better suited wth even MonkeyModel 72's firing HE-Frag ammunition against US incenstous terrorists in urban warfare.

    BS Ironman has non penetrable armor lol1 What terrorist you mean Freedom fighters right lol! ?

    Seriously, pozhyviom uvidim - if economy and geopolitics will be driving factor here. I am sure Uncle Pu can see that we never can imagine and chooses optimal for Russia decision.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:41 am

    [quote="kvs"]
    Mike E wrote:Russia could cooperate with India but directly selling them the Armata (even in five to ten years) would not be the smartest decision. We already know that the T-14's Western equivalent (next-gen Leo) is *at least* 15 years away, and as such Armata should be valued and protected until then. India could maybe get information on the APS, next-generation etc, but not the components themselves. - Unless they sign an agreement to say, build Armata chassis for Russia or something like that. 

    .


    3rd this..

    Is kind of stupid Russia give away their best technology ,to other nations that later ends in the hands of western spies.  India basically wants the technology of armata without working for it ,for cheap ,to reverse engineer it and later design their tanks..  India also wanted the technology of Pak-Fa .. and also want Russia to help India to build Yasen Submarines.. know where im going.?  India wants to become a super power for almost free.. ,paying just a small fee.  But when they do Business with US..or Israel or any NATO they never get any transfer of technology .. They buy the product and pays the market price for it.. not special price.  

    Russia should evaluate if its worth of doing , transfering technology to their allies for next to nothing.. China is on the same boat..but worse.. they want SU-35 to reverse engineer it.. and
    later sell it back for cheaper price.. China have no ethics at all in Business. And Russia should be
    very careful with their S-400s to China ,because they will reverse engineer it and later sell it back to nations like Turkey... already doing that with Chinese version of S-300.

    CHina also sold T-72 copies to Venezuela if remember well.. is really bad.. Russia needs to become 100% independent and trade zero technology that is crucial for its nation defense.
    Chinnese really have no ethics with business...  And Russia sales to CHina should be limited to Energy ,raw materials.. If want to help  .

    IT will be better a share project if Russia wants to help India and or China and send new young engineers ,recently graduated.. that are not genius but ok students. who never developed anything ,to build a partnership to develop military weapons with India or China.. but without compromising any top technology from Russia.  SOmething similar to the S-350 project between Russia and SOuth Korea. That will be a win /win for both sides..  because both sides will get knowledge.. and it will not be Russia selling technology and teaching all..and instead will be both sides working together to develop something new.

    But giving away the nation top technology is stupid .
    in the last few days ,have read how much India wants help to build submarines like Russia ,
    Stealth Planes like Russia , next generation tanks like Russia. And it looks like just like China
    they both are taking advantage of Russia economic problems to Extort Russia and obtain for very cheap state of the art  for next to nothing

    CHina for example originally wanted 32 Su-35 planes.. because they need to reverse engineer the engines.. and the more Russia economy is in trouble ,the more cheaper is the offer from China.. now they are negotiating for 15. . Imho not worth of the pain. Russia should not sell their best hardware to anyone .

    India and CHina are great nations , and Russia should continue having close relations with them.. but their best technology should be better keep.. and not sold anywhere , just like Americans do with their F-22 plane.

    That said i really think is bad idea Russia sell Pak-FA to anyone else.. or Armata.. and instead
    Modernize upgrade their Su-30 and Mig-29 and make them a bit more stealthy ,not using Pak-fa technology.. and sell those for exports.. Same with their  T-90.. to add Arena ,improve the protection and Gun power a bit. and sell those for exports only.. In other word just optimize
    their older technology for exports.. good enough to compete with western upgraded F-16s and European fighters.. but not as good as Pak-FA or Su-35 electronic warfare capabilities.

    Already Russia had lots of problems with important technology being stolen ,when US organize a coup in X or Y nation and the new Government in Power shares Russia technology with them.

    This happened with Egypt.. with Ukraine now , and with some asian countries . etc.


    In a bit off topic news.. speaking about India.. Just days ago ,the new Obama freedom fighters
    that Obama trains and arms, killed 20 Indian soldiers with american anti tank weapons..

    http://sputniknews.com/asia/20150606/1023008146.html

    This should be an awakened call for India ,to stop its neutrality in the world and become much
    more active in world conflicts in alliance with Russia.

    collegeboy16
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:42 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Of course i am pessimistic when hearing such news. This isn't some non important technology to an Allied country, this is  India which is hardly lobbied by Western countries to be any Russian and Anti-Sino. If the Indians want a good tank and want progression with their failed project they can participate and ask for R&D on basis of Prorif-2 which is today among the best if not the best protected tank with the highest mobility.
    but they are already buying T-90MS by the hundreds- they want a new state of the art tank.
    Werewolf wrote:
    Money is cheap when national security can be comprimized. Whenever i hear that Russia is supplying Su-35, S-400/300, Ka-52, T-14, or any PKO/PVO systems that is a concern for me, based on such events like UK buying russian T-80U,MSTA-S and K5 via Morocco. If the West wants progression in fields it holds no experience and technologies they should do it like US did out of necessity. Buying cooperation and patents of Kontakt-1 related technology to make ARAT ERA for Abrams tanks.
    there is always that risk yes, but look on the bright side. your likely adversary is using stuff based on your stuff at least a generation earlier Twisted Evil .
    you still have the knowledge behind the operating principles of your old stuff, and you especially know its weaknesses. time to exploit those! Twisted Evil
    kvs wrote:
    Russia should treat the T-14 like the US treats the F-22 Raptor.   Russia should treat the PAK-FA this way as well.   India can
    go an develop its own super duper tech.   I am sick and tired to listening to all the Russia bashing over Russia's "non delivery" of
    the two-seater PAK-FA to India and the routine claim that India paid for the development of the PAK-FA.
    and who are these people bashing the Russians- certainly not the people who matter. never read of Indian generals bash Russian tanks- ive read of Russian generals do so tho.
    kvs wrote:
    Countries are allowed to have special status equipment which they do not sell for national security reasons.   There is
    no right of any other country to buy this equipment.   The T-90MS is good enough for export.   The SU series of jets
    are good enough for export as well.
    dude its only a tank- not an iskander. if they are willing to sell iskanders i say they are ready and willing to sell armatas too. and iskanders are more of a possible security threat than any number of tanks- load a nuke warhead on it and you have an effective nuke weapon read to strike.
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    I guess there will be Armata-E option before any export contract is inked and delivered. In geopolitics there is no love only national interests and in Russia´s best interest in keep India on BRICS/SCO side.
    there would be an Armata-E eventually, in fact the modular nature of T-14 and rest of armatas lends itself well to making different versions, including an export one.

    and who knows- perhaps UVZ manages to convince the Indians to invest in T-95 instead. Twisted Evil

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  dberwal on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:34 am

    Just trying to clarify some misinformation on Indian AFV projects as i see many members using some terms very often:

    1) Indian has Bought Approx 1600 T-90S and not the MS version.
    - Approx 1000 of T-90S are already in service

    2)T-90S would come for an mid life upgrade as its almost 14years since first 124 were inducted in 2001-02
    - Upgrade would definitely involve technology and components from T-90 MS/ T-14/ Arjun

    3) Next 10years Indian Army will not get a chance to induct any MBT in numbers, only small numbers will be inducted in lots of 100 over 3-4 years time, nothing more.
    - so the next MBT big buy will come around 2025-27 period.

    4) FICV in the big buy project for Indian Mechanized forces
    - As per the project, it has to be Made in India, by an Indian company.
    - Indian company can have partnership with foreign vendors.
    - Most indication are that 2 different designs will be selected for tests and eventually one will be selected.
    - Indian MoD will fund some % of both the design development cost.
    - As with most Indian projects, this project has hit some roadblocks and slowed down, it should pick up by next year.

    5) The current project of around 1500+ BMP 2 upgrade is what is on the cards. (most likely upgraded to BMP 2M standard)

    I believe reports in Indian media about below par performance of Russian equipment are all paid news and none of the are any kind of official view.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:56 am

    A unique opportunity to "Armata" is that the commander can drive the tank as the driver

    http://vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-12411.htm
    The placement of the crew of the T-14 "Armata" protected capsule, in addition to unparalleled security features gives the opportunity to implement a number of other unique features.

    So the tank commander from the workplace can not only fire the existing tank weapons, but, if necessary, is able to assume the functions of the driver. In the future this will reduce the number of crew members and will greatly facilitate the ability to create a fully robotic tank.

    It should be noted that work in this area began in the last years of the Soviet Union in Leningrad. Then was created the sample tank with the placement of the crew in the front of the machine. On the tank front and rear video camera was placed, than so was provided with a circular observation. Tank was the possibility of duplication of each other.

    Thanks to the infrared imaging sight with the possibility of integration of panoramic images, the enemy could be detected and affected both day and night. Greatly simplified the work for automated target tracking.

    In addition, this machine was used without crew during management experiments in the distance, on Board a special car.

    The tests were quite successful, as a result of this research demonstrated the possibility of remote control and guidance of weapons one crew member. Unfortunately, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, this is a very promising development has been shipped, what is called in the archive.
    The possibility of duplication of functions of the crew was also reached on the main battle tank Object 195. This promising and quite successfully passing the test fighting machine had to go into service in 2010, however, the former management of the Ministry of defense decided this tank is not to buy.

    But as they say, there is a silver lining, the "Armata" is largely used experience from previous developments: with new approaches and modern element base T-14 left in a distant lead over his likely competitors. Russian fighting machine his appearance made obsolete the entire tank Park in the world, and, given the cost of such developments, we are in this field not able to catch up.

    Lev Romanov

    Нас не догонят cheers Nas Ne Dogonyat


    collegeboy16 wrote:

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    I guess there will be Armata-E option before any export contract is inked and delivered. In geopolitics there is no love only national interests and in Russia´s best interest in keep India on BRICS/SCO side.
    there would be an Armata-E eventually, in fact the modular nature of T-14 and rest of armatas lends itself well to making different versions, including an export one.

    and who knows- perhaps UVZ manages to convince the Indians to invest in T-95 instead. Twisted Evil

    I can subscribe to your view or you just did to mine does not matter - what matter is that Modi iws not very keen on US elites. Indian elites and I believe many of average guys realize then US always wants to be geopolitical Ubermoneky and for India is no place among equals besides BRICS. Otherwise they can be at most Anglo-Saxon colony.

    As for Armta imagine deal for 1500 Armatas produced jointly... not to mention how many new technologies can be created on Russian side.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:30 am

    Damn Armata with electrochemical gun? almost relsotron Smile

    Gun for "Armata": 152-mm gun or elettrotermochimical system?
    http://vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-12291.htm
    f we talk about the development of a foreign tank, it is unlikely in the next 10-15 years abroad will have seen drastic changes in the tank weapons. According to experts, is a very strong likelihood that Western tanks of the future will be armed with 140-mm guns, over which they worked in 90-e years, and the so-called elektrotermicheskoi guns. Work in this direction is carried out not only in NATO countries, but in Israel, South Korea and China. So, apparently, you can save on the installation of a 152 mm gun on a tank "Armata" and throw all the forces and means to the creation of the Russian electrothermomechanical system.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrothermal-chemical_technology
    I presume source of energy can be magnetic flux explosive genrator. But technology is still far away...





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