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    [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

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    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:06 am

    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:22 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.
    Why throw in what I can only take as an insult? I am not trying to disagree. 

    I said the 100 mm was more flexible but it comes with drawbacks as well. 40 rounds of which how many are ATGM's? 

    The Kornet has superior characteristics...like it or not that is hugely important. We have seen the value of IFV's attacking MBT's (ala Bradley) and if they can do it well, I would honestly prefer that over the ability to fire a few other rounds. 

    Interesting or not...Kornet is the better ATGM and that is what I am saying. 

    K-25 IFV may see an armament upgrade in the future anyway, possibly with the heavier turret.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:39 am

    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.
    Why throw in what I can only take as an insult? I am not trying to disagree. 

    I said the 100 mm was more flexible but it comes with drawbacks as well. 40 rounds of which how many are ATGM's? 

    The Kornet has superior characteristics...like it or not that is hugely important. We have seen the value of IFV's attacking MBT's (ala Bradley) and if they can do it well, I would honestly prefer that over the ability to fire a few other rounds. 

    Interesting or not...Kornet is the better ATGM and that is what I am saying. 

    K-25 IFV may see an armament upgrade in the future anyway, possibly with the heavier turret.

    1. I wasn't trying to belittle you, it was all in good faith, a gentle poke. But i agree, it sounds childish. Accept my apologies.
    2. As much as 8 23-3's.
    3. The Kornet is far better than the Arkan in penetration, but you don't fight with a top notch ATGM alone. The Arkan can take on pretty much EVERY AFV out there and cause damage. Nevermind the fact that you'd be stuck with a 30mm for everything non-heavy metal.
    What is also hugely important is also having to wipe out pockets with HE Frag, Airburst ammo etc.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:43 am

    Accepted... 

    Based on your own estimates that would give you as many 23-3's in the BMP as the Kornet in the K-25 (with external loading).

    I can agree with that... Hopefully the improved turret will include a more powerful cannon so it can engage targets w/o the Kornets. 

    When you look at everything together... K-25 has superior heavy-armor performance but the BMP wins on everything else.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:56 am

    Mike E wrote:Accepted... 

    Based on your own estimates that would give you as many 23-3's in the BMP as the Kornet in the K-25 (with external loading).

    I can agree with that... Hopefully the improved turret will include a more powerful cannon so it can engage targets w/o the Kornets. 

    When you look at everything together... K-25 has superior heavy-armor performance but the BMP wins on everything else.

    Indeed the K-25 is the more survivable. And if push comes to shove, I can see the BMP-3 turret integrated on the K-25 as well...so in a sense even the export market can be covered at minimal expense.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Book. on Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:19 am

    I think 100/30 turret good. K25 need

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:42 am

    So the Armata Tank armor protection is 900mm ?  
    Thats what an infograph says at RT spanish..

    Fuerza de blindaje = Armor Strength  = 900mm




    update..
    well actually there is a sign.. of > that could be is greater than.. 900mm

    it doesnt specify if that include the inside capsule for crew or the protection at sides and top
    armor protection..

    http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/176627-india-china-comprar-tanque-armata


    Last edited by Vann7 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total

    Mike E
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:45 am

    They list "greater than" 900 mm and not just "900 mm"... Big difference there.

    My guess would be ~1100 RHAe vs. KE.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:50 am

    Mike E wrote:They list "greater than" 900 mm and not just "900 mm"... Big difference there.

    My guess would be ~1100 RHAe vs. KE.

    Have it been published the Abram M1A2 gun power capability at 2km..?
    or the M1A3?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:52 am

    Yes... The M829 has a penetration of just under 800 mm RHAe at 2 kilometers.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:00 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Apparently, at least one country is still interested in the "Atom"

    The following is from February but I don't recall seeing it mentioned here...

    "Uralvagonzavod" will develop the BMP "Atom" without the participation of France

    Russia continues to work on the project, BMP-"Atom" with a new partner, said the General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko at the arms exhibition IDEX–2015.

    "We have a new partner, we are moving towards the goal of creating a finished product for a specific country" said Sienko.

    The country in question was not specified

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/rusvesna.su/future/1424726527

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:16 am

    If anything then those figures are always wrong and never RHAe figures but LOS figures and i highly doubt those figures are from UVZ themselfs that is always top secret and never disclosed to anyone not even to export models.

    The LOS armor itself could range from 700 to 1200mm, hard to tell without pictures of the interior.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:46 am

    Mike E wrote:Yes... The M829 has a penetration of just under 800 mm RHAe at 2 kilometers.
    correction: its m829a3.

    the T-14's physical armor should be good enough for at least the next generation of rounds the west will field. if the T-14 itself will field apfsds that will burn through 1m of RHAe its safe to assume the armor should be at least that level.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:52 am

    Looking through the estimated protection levels of previous Russian tanks with ERA, I'm not sure I buy the 900 mm RHAe. I would expect more armor protecting the crew. But that is just me...

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:52 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Yes... The M829 has a penetration of just under 800 mm RHAe at 2 kilometers.
    correction: its m829a3.

    the T-14's physical armor should be good enough for at least the next generation of rounds the west will field. if the T-14 itself will field apfsds that will burn through 1m of RHAe its safe to assume the armor should be at least that level.

    Yes...the A3 my mistake.

    The LOS armor should be around 1 meter...

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:24 am



    HE-frag Warheads of APS Afghanistan is designation is ZUOF-24G SB1.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:25 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    HE-frag Warheads of APS Afghanistan is designation is ZUOF-24G SB1.

    what caliber ? 152mm ?

    and the image doesn't appear.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:27 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    HE-frag Warheads of APS Afghanistan is designation is ZUOF-24G SB1.

    what caliber ? 152mm ?

    and the image doesn't appear.

    Don't know calibre but it is quite big. The picture doesn't appear because i just hotlinked it and it was deleted or moved on paralay.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:28 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Apparently, at least one country is still interested in the "Atom"

    The following is from February but I don't recall seeing it mentioned here...

    "Uralvagonzavod" will develop the BMP "Atom" without the participation of France

    Russia continues to work on the project, BMP-"Atom" with a new partner, said the General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko at the arms exhibition IDEX–2015.

    "We have a new partner, we are moving towards the goal of creating a finished product for a specific country" said Sienko.

    The country in question was not specified

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/rusvesna.su/future/1424726527

    I know that one. The country however isn't China but more than probably India.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:09 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.

    No, I rather think a Playstation controller is exactly what he needs

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3082276/War-games-Russia-reveals-latest-tank-controlled-PLAYSTATION-controller.html#ixzz3aBahXZCH

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:12 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.

    No, I rather think a Playstation controller is exactly what he needs

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3082276/War-games-Russia-reveals-latest-tank-controlled-PLAYSTATION-controller.html#ixzz3aBahXZCH


    That's the Daily Fail..they'd tell me I was a man, I'd go test my DNA to be sure.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:38 pm

    plebs Rolling Eyes ... mouse and keyboard is what you need. Razz

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:18 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:plebs Rolling Eyes ... mouse and keyboard is what you need. Razz

    That would easily enable a 2-man crew; like in BF3 What a Face

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Kyo on Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:23 pm

    Both India and China are interested in buying Armata

    According to statements to "Izvestia" by the Assistant to the President, Vladimir Kozhin, after the demonstration of new models of armored vehicles in the May 9 parade in honor of the 70th anniversary of Victory in the Great Patriotic War, interest in innovations, and first of all of the armored infantry tank "Armata", were expressed by the traditional partners of Russia's military-technical cooperation.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  xeno on Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:13 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9

    What happened? Any source? Thanks...

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