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    2S19 Msta-S 152mm

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    flamming_python
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:01 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    Regular wrote:And yet there still americans talking shit about their artillery being superior when they are outsiders when it comes to it

    Well, I think a lot of that is because of the highly sophisticated guided munitions that the US deploys. That's definitely something the Russian Military have to start investing in

    Let me add to the posts above (which also answer your question) with a few extra things to think about.

    The highly sophisticated guided muntions that the US deploys - it deploys in low-intensity Talib warfare where it can afford expensive, high-tech ammo - simply because it's just not depleted that fast.
    Add to the fact that the Talibs, Iraqi insurgents, etc... never really travelled around or fought in large groups or formations, as well as usually on foot - making them tough targets for artillery as they can duck and find cover as soon as the first shell hits.
    This adds up to having to expend a large quantity of ammunition - just to destroy a few lightly-armed insurgents.
    Then you have the factor of collatoral damage too; with insurgents usually popping up among civilians and civilian infastructure.

    Together this all makes guided munitions pretty neccessary for those conflicts.

    Rest assured though that in a full-on intense conventional confrontation with anyone serious, all those fancy shells would run out within a day, and the only realistic or economical option would be dumb munitions. This is the reality.
    For anyone with a mind to fight a conventional war - dumb shells have always been a far wiser option with guided shells only available in small quantities, to be used in conjunction with SF operations and so on. This has pretty much been the Russian approach, not-coincidently.

    Up until recently Russia has had only had the Soviet-developed laser-guided mortar and howitzer shells (which France and others bought and which were among the first of their class in the world; having been developed in the mid 80s); which were expensive, designed to work in conjunction with artillery observers, and reserved for specific tasks; for example smashing armour columns with precision hits on their top armour as was done to those Ukrainian armour columns were taken out last summer or so rumour has it.

    It is only recently that Russia has started investing in GLONASS guided shells; given that its GLONASS constellation has only reached full operation within the last 2-3 years. Russia has been busy upgrading its artillery with GLONASS integration/targetting, and have probably been buying up these shells for many of these systems too. Such shells can be set with GLONASS coordinates, and will gently guide themselves to that location while in flight.
    However while they are guided, and accurate - they are not really 'precision guided' in the sense of what you are talking about - as they are not capable of being guided to a target (other than an immobile one with a precisely known position) nor do they have any sensors for determining targets and homing in on them. They simply guide themselves more precisely to a coordinate than dumb shells do and land in a much tighter group.

    rather than the fire-a-lot-of-shells-in-the-general-direction-of-the-enemy-and-hope-that-one-will-hit tactic.

    When there are a good amount of targets within the artillery system's CEP at that range - there's a good chance that a lot of those shells will hit something; and guided munitions in that case become a little superflous and wouldn't really add anything that a good old artillery barrage with conventional ammo wouldn't accomplish.

    The 'tactic' is to cover a square (or circular rather) area in explosions within a minimal amount of time, destroying anything there that dares to cling to life. Why would guided munitions be any better for accomplishing that then dumb munitions?

    TheArmenian
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:34 am

    Apart from being very expenses. Guided or corrected shells like Krasnopol and Copperhead have another drawback: They need a spotter relatively close to the enemy to "laze" the target.
    So the usage of this kind of shells is restricted and lacks the degree of freedom enjoyed by regular dumb shells that have been used for decades, or even centuries.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:20 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Apart from being very expenses. Guided or corrected shells like Krasnopol and Copperhead have another drawback: They need a spotter relatively close to the enemy to "laze" the target.
    So the usage of this kind of shells is restricted and lacks the degree of freedom enjoyed by regular dumb shells that have been used for decades, or even centuries.

    I think that can largely be mitigated by creating a gun launched UAV with laser targeting equipment.

    GarryB
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:51 pm

    Why USA never bothered developping its self propelled artillery like russia?

    Funny... I remember in the 1980s there were plenty of western experts wondering why the Soviets had so many towed artillery pieces and so few self propelled weapons... the common conclusions were that it was cheaper and they didn't care about the safety of their artillerymen.

    The reality was most likely that it wasn't a large priority as they had rocket artillery on trucks already that was very mobile.

    I think that can largely be mitigated by creating a gun launched UAV with laser targeting equipment.

    Indeed the Smerch has the E90 rocket launched UAV, but artillery units have long been the main forces in the Soviet and Russian military who have been interested in UAVs... with the Bumblebee being the most widely used UAV in the Russian military for some time... now of course eclipsed by more capable systems....


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    Cyberspec
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat May 16, 2015 4:53 am

    MSTA-M2





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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Book. on Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:30 pm

    India test the Msta S
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1338542.html

    Militarov
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:56 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Apart from being very expenses. Guided or corrected shells like Krasnopol and Copperhead have another drawback: They need a spotter relatively close to the enemy to "laze" the target.
    So the usage of this kind of shells is restricted and lacks the degree of freedom enjoyed by regular dumb shells that have been used for decades, or even centuries.

    I think that can largely be mitigated by creating a gun launched UAV with laser targeting equipment.

    Actually there should be some medium sized UAV unit attached to the artillery batallions that would give recon, fire control corrections and target designation to the artillery, also if Army ever get its own aviation there should be dedicated helicopter platform on KA60 (i guess this is the best choice) to be used as flying command post and target designation for artillery. Creating good network of systems that can designate targets is very important and Russians should invest it imo, one soldier in company can carry laser designation device, that is not much of an issue to provide one such device on 100-150 soldiers.

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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:26 pm

    More than 30 2S33 "Msta-SM" Self-Propelled howitzers joined Western Military District units in Moscow

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12080491@egNews



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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Dima on Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:19 pm

    Cant find any details for this 2S33 spec online.
    Whats the specs for this modernized 2S33 Msta-SM, what all have changed w.r.t to the 2S19 Msta-S in this upgrade? Any chance for a longer caliber gun, say 52cal from the current 39cal?

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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Militarov on Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:37 pm

    Dima wrote:Cant find any details for this 2S33 spec online.
    Whats the specs for this modernized 2S33 Msta-SM, what all have changed w.r.t to the 2S19 Msta-S in this upgrade? Any chance for a longer caliber gun, say 52cal from the current 39cal?

    From what i am aware original MSTA-S is using L47 gun.

    "It is fitted with a 152-mm / L47 howitzer, which is similar to that used on the 2A65 Msta-B towed howitzer, additionally fitted with an semi-automatic loader and fume extractor."

    Only thing i found about SM some months ago that it has improved navigation equipment.

    GarryB
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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:01 am

    AFAIK the new guidance kits for standard artillery rounds include GLONASS and steering fins and can be fitted to standard shells as a normal fuse would be fitted.

    the low cost means they can be used as standard fuses, yet offer greatly improved accuracy over standard shells.

    10m CEP has been reported.

    Obviously with an area target you could calculate a pattern for the individual shells to be targeting to get a nice uniform distribution of shells too so even with area targets the guidance kits would be useful.

    Artillery batteries will have a range of recon resources that will likely include light and medium UAVs as well as helos like Ka-52 to find targets whose coordinates can be transmitted back to the artillery unit to rapidly fire on the targets.


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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:29 pm

    Russia's UVZ Corporation to Deliver 42 Self-Propelled Artillery MSTAs by 2019

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160907/1045052737/russia-army-uralvagonzavod.html


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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  storm333 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:27 pm

    The guided shells as mentioned requires laser designation. Such shells might be more ideal for mobile targets such at heavy armor.

    The use of SUAVS for fire adjustment has reduced the number of shells traditionally needed to take out targets. The Orlan-10  artillery combination was effectively used in Ukraine.
    The article below mentions that just 38 shells were used to take out US supplied counter battery compared to the 300 traditionally required.
    Orlan 10 UAV used in fire adjustment

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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Benya on Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:32 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia's UVZ Corporation to Deliver 42 Self-Propelled Artillery MSTAs by 2019

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160907/1045052737/russia-army-uralvagonzavod.html

    This contract seems logical to me, simply because the production of the Koalitsiya cannot start until the Armata platform's production is ramped up to a certain point.

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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:32 pm

    This contract seems logical to me, simply because the production of the Koalitsiya cannot start until the Armata platform's production is ramped up to a certain point.

    MSTA is not Koalition...


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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  Benya on Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    MSTA is not Koalition...

    I know, but Koalitsiya will replace Msta.

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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:22 am

    There are plenty of improvements in the new model MSTAs that makes them rather more useful than the vehicles being retired or refocussed.

    The 2S3 is obsolete... even in the newer models and keeping those vehicles in service just keeps another chassis and engine and transmission in service to require spares for and trained service personel.

    MSTA is a good vehicle but now that Koalition is practically ready they should not build a huge number of a model on the verge of being replaced.


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    Re: 2S19 Msta-S 152mm

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:29 pm

    Locked and Loaded: Russia Develops Unique Reloading Vehicle for MSTA Howitzers

    Russian self-propelled guns (SPG) will soon have the possibility to replenish ammunition with the help of unique support reloading vehicle, newly designed for the Russian military.

    Based on Armata Currently known under the technical name Izdelie 2-F66-1, the vehicle was developed by the Burevestnik Central R&D Institute. It is based on the KamAZ-6560 eight-wheel chassis.

    The new vehicle is equipped with a special manipulator which enables instant resupplying of an SPG without involvement of its crew. "

    As for now, the vehicle has undergone government tests. Deliveries to the armed forces will begin next year," a Burevestnik representative told the Russian newspaper Izvestia.

    The newest vehicle will be delivered along with MSTA-SV self-propelled howitzers, which were contracted by the Defense Ministry in September.


    On the outside, the new reloading vehicle looks like an ordinary truck with a container mounted in the cargo box. Inside the box, there is a revolver-type reloading system which contains 92 artillery shells. Controlled by the operator, the system rotates and delivers a projectile to a special manipulator resembling a human’s arm. The manipulator grabs the projectile and puts it in the loading mechanism of an SPG.

    Until now, having run out of ammo, SPG units had to leave artillery positions for a safe place where they could replenish ammo. Traditional reloading is time-consuming because it is done manually by the crew. The new reloading vehicle will accelerate the procedure several-fold. If previously reloading usually took up to several hours, the 2F66-1 can reload 50 shells in just several minutes.

    "Each artillery division will receive one 2F66-1 reloading vehicle. Its capabilities will increase the firing rate of artillery units by 2-3 times and seriously reduce the reloading time," a Defense Ministry source told Izvestia.

    Currently, analogues of the 2F66-1 are used with the newest Swedish howitzer Archer. It is based on the Volvo A30D chassis and can carry over 40 shells. Analogous reloading vehicles are also in service with the French military, working with the Caesar self-propelled gun.

    The introduction of the 2F66-1 is a serious step to accelerate and facilitate the work of artillery units, military expert Viktor Murakhovsky said.

    "In addition to an automated fire management system, a support reloading vehicle is an important step to increase the efficiency of the Russian artillery," he said. "The MSTA can perform eight shots a minute and, as a result, it runs out of ammo in just a few minutes. The use of automated reloading vehicle allows for rapid reloading and increased firerate."

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20161005/1046030938/russia-reloading-machine.html


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