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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Viktor
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:38 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Any thoughts, anyone. paratrooper

    This thread is about S-400/500 for SM-3 you should start a new one, not mix them.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:09 am

    I rather expect the VKO will have satellite based detection and mobile S-500 systems to perform the same mission for Russia on land and likely the navy will be able to use a naval S-500 and satellite based sensors to the same end at sea...

    BTW:

    Gerasimov recently said:

    Strategic nuclear forces are, of course, Russia’s priority. He mentioned acquiring Topol-M, Yars, and SSBNs, modernizing Tu-160 and Tu-95MS bombers, and getting satellite systems for VVKO, according to Krasnaya zvezda’s recap of his remarks.

    For conventional forces, among other things, Gerasimov said VTA will get 200 new transports, and the Ground Troops and VDV new heavy, medium, and light armor using the Armata, Kurganets, and Bumerang platforms, respectively.

    The VKO system for protecting important state and industrial facilities will be formed in 2016-2020. Mobile S-500 brigades will have this mission. Troop air defense will be the responsibility of SAM brigades equipped with the S-300V and Buk-M3.

    All Ground Troops missile brigades will have the Iskander.

    So for troop air defence they will use S-300V4 and Buk-M3... the S-400 and S-500 and Vityaz will be air force systems and VKO systems.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:46 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Any thoughts, anyone. paratrooper

    This thread is about S-400/500 for SM-3 you should start a new one, not mix them.

    Was wondering if i should, i'll do it next time, sorry. angel

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:the navy will be able to use a naval S-500 and satellite based sensors to the same end at sea.

    Anatoly Shlemov, head of the state defense contracts department at the United Shipbuilding Corporation said last August that Russia is set to develop a sea-based missile defense program similar to the U.S. Aegis system

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20120831/175538466.html

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:25 am

    The Sigma system they are installing on all their ships from Corvette to carrier is already an equivalent to AEGIS in its original form. What they are talking about however is to expand the systems capabilities to include BM and space based threats which of course would have been illegal under the 1972 ABM treaty for most of the existence of AEGIS.



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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:I rather expect the VKO will have satellite based detection and mobile S-500 systems to perform the same mission for Russia on land and likely the navy will be able to use a naval S-500 and satellite based sensors to the same end at sea...

    Have you any information about VKO satellite system?


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:23 am

    No.

    They might have inherited some optical and other satellites from the PVO and Space forces, but the new radar based satellites will likely be new... I remember reading about an official stating that the rate of satellite launches for military purposes would have to increase significantly and mentioned the VKO as a primary user of such new satellites.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:28 pm

    I have a feeling they wont go for just tracking ICBM launch like today`s EW satellites. This ones will be integrated with the newly formed

    aerospace defense and they could use them to track balistic/cruise missiles but even fighters/bombers and provide EW.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:08 am

    The VKO is the combination of the PVO from the air force and the Space defence forces, so it will include all the early warning missile radars as well as all the early warning satellites, so I would expect them to be looking for everything.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:07 am

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/29644/

    Progress on all them Almaz-Anteii factories.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:38 am

    Excellent photo of S-300 battery shooting


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:53 am

    US Cancels 3rd Stage ABM Program in Europe , A precursor to further reduction in Nuclear Weapons between US and Russia as Obama has promised for second term , This should also put to rest on some ruffling feathers at Kremlin on 3rd stage Europen ABM Program

    US scraps final phase of European missile shield

    The Pentagon announced Friday it will spend $1 billion to add 14 interceptors to a West Coast-based missile defense system, responding to what it called faster-than-anticipated North Korean progress on nuclear weapons and missiles. Defense officials confirm the move, saying it's in response to recent threats from North Korea to attack the U.S. with nuclear weapons.

    A portion of the $1 billion cost of the expanded system will come from scrapping the final phase of a missile defense system the U.S. is building in Europe.

    The system in Europe is aimed mainly at defending against a missile threat from Iran; key elements of that system are already in place.

    The decision to drop the planned expansion in Europe happens to coincide with President Barack Obama’s 's announced intention to engage Russia in talks about further reducing each country's nuclear weapons arsenal.

    US to add 14 interceptors on the West Coast in response to recent threats from North Korea

    The Pentagon announced Friday it will spend $1 billion to add 14 interceptors to a West Coast-based missile defense system, responding to what it called faster-than-anticipated North Korean progress on nuclear weapons and missiles.

    Defense officials confirm the move, saying it's in response to recent threats from North Korea to attack the U.S. with nuclear weapons. U.S. officials believe North Korea is incapable of carrying out an attack, but the threat adds to tension between the two countries.

    The Pentagon intends to add the 14 interceptors to 26 already in place at Fort Greely, Alaska. That will expand the system's ability to shoot down long-range missiles in flight before they could reach U.S. territory. In addition to those at Greely, the U.S. also has four missile interceptors at Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif.

    The officials confirmed the decision on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:16 pm

    Good decision .... but let's remember that the "threat" over Russia has not disappeared completely .

    It has just shifted from the European part of Russia to the Asian part of Russia .

    This "change of heart" on the part of the US is part of it's PIVOT IN ASIA policy which basically is a misnomer for containing the rise of CHINA in the short to medium term and INDIA in the long term .

    The US is setting up a state of the art radar system in Japan which apparently is supposed to track Ballistic Missile launches in North Korea . This apart from the ECHELON in Australia and similar SIGINT systems in other parts of SE Asia will help the US to keep a hawk eye on CHINA's every move.

    The US has scrapped the 3rd Stage ABM Program in Europe primarily because it is short of fund as it needs fund to bolster it's defense against CHINA .

    The US Secretary of State in his very first visit to Europe earlier this month has by and large indicated that the US military involvement in Europe (as we knew it after the end of WW II) is virtually over and that Europe needs to fend for itself militarily.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  gaurav on Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:35 pm

    Austin wrote:US Cancels 3rd Stage ABM Program in Europe , A precursor to further
    reduction in Nuclear Weapons between US and Russia as Obama has promised for second
    term , This should also put to rest on some ruffling feathers at Kremlin on 3rd
    stage Europen ABM Program
    Good move by U.S.
    With Kerry and Hagel at the top it is expected U.S will take similar measures
    to further reduce nuke stockpiles of U.S and Russsia.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:28 am

    Those plans will be reactivated if they found money to do it.

    Of course this situation is not bad for US also as they have been warning Europe to participate in its defense more and more repeatedly.

    Of course this could be Russia opportunity to push its own agenda and try to reach a agreement with EU about missile defense or

    possibly developed it together based on S-500 and S-300V4.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:58 pm


    US Cancels 3rd Stage ABM Program in Europe , A precursor to further reduction in Nuclear Weapons between US and Russia as Obama has promised for second term , This should also put to rest on some ruffling feathers at Kremlin on 3rd stage Europen ABM Program



    Very Happy Worst covered strategic posture trap of entire military history.

    - NATO naive plan -

    Offer as "bait" a momentary freezing of last stage of East European ABM structure (aimed at find some type of strategic response to the enormous problem represented today by Topol-M and Yars ICBM Wink ), not offering moreover any type of legally binding guarantee on a possible future quick resuming of the plan (when the ABM technological basis will be, for US's scientific sector of the field, more solid) hoping to lure Federation in:


    1) Accepting a further strategic missile reduction bilateral Treaty (essential in "diluting" to the maximum the wide technological edge enjoyed by Russian Federation in ballistic missile technology and catch it in a true strategic bottle-neck, very difficult to overcome in the short period, when the last stage of ABM structure in Europe will be suddenly resumed).

    2) Relax R&D efforts and production plans for the perspective ballistic missiles programs under a momentary illusion of safety.

    3) Reduce number and operational deployment of sub-strategic nuclear weapons (and stop theirs modernization plan).

    4) Slow-down the development plans for perspective Air and Space Defensive systems (hoping ,so, also to obtaining a true offensive "capability surprise" with theirs future suborbital hypersonic global strike system Laughing Laughing ).



    Simply Ridiculous.



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:08 pm

    Let see what RF has to say about it , RF was asking for legal gurantees which was not forthcoming and mere abandoning by Obama admin does not mean some future president wont resume it.

    Unless there is no legal gurantee RF should not fall to the trap , the abandoment might be a tactical move to save on cost and entice russia.

    meanwhile

    US Missile Defense Shift ‘No Way About’ Russia

    James Miller, Principal Deputy Under Secretary for Policy at the Department of Defense later clarified: "In the fourth phase, in the previous plan, we would have added some additional type of interceptors - the so-called SM-3 IIB - would have been added to the mix in Poland. We no longer intend to add them to the mix, but we'll continue to have the same number of deployed interceptors in Poland that will provide coverage for all of NATO in Europe."

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:35 am

    Good move by U.S.
    With Kerry and Hagel at the top it is expected U.S will take similar measures
    to further reduce nuke stockpiles of U.S and Russsia.

    The thing is that the US only sees things from its own perspective.

    I very much doubt Russia will actually be interested in reducing strategic nuclear weapons very much... perhaps 1,000 is their limit... it may even be the current 1,500 allowed by current treaties. Until the Russian military is rebuilt and fully functional I very much doubt they will want to reduce their tactical nuclear stockpile.

    Very simply the US has precision guided weapons that can perform missions previously only a tactical nuclear strike could achieve with any certainty. Russia has similar precision guided weapons but very few in service and even fewer trained to use them properly.

    At the end of the day Russia still needs nuclear weapons more than the US does... Russia doesn't have a large group of countries that will jump when they say jump, or invade or sanction when they say sanction.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:20 am

    Excellent insight mindstorm.

    Now I see, I did not even read the article carefully. US is cancelling only 4th phase and that to temporarily.

    No written guarantees is even mentioned. They did not said SM-3 IIB wont be developed at all. Basically nothing has changed.

    By the time 4th phase is scheduled, SM-3 IIb will be developed and jet there is still some time left to change their minds

    few more times and try to capitalize on their fictive offer to abandon EU ABM shield.

    Well Russia has spoken.

    Moscow Unimpressed by Changes in US Missile Defense Plans

    “That is not a concession to Russia, nor do we regard it as such,” Ryabkov said.

    “All aspects of strategic uncertainty related to the creation of a US and NATO missile defense system remain. Therefore, our objections also remain.”

    The rest of the article.

    LINK

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:16 pm

    Moscow needs explanations on US missile shield changes

    The United States should explain to Russia what changes it made in its European missile defense plans before Moscow draws its conclusion, a Defense Ministry official said on Tuesday.

    US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said at a news conference on Friday that plans to place upgraded missile interceptors in Poland are being abandoned and that 14 new interceptors will be placed on the US West Coast instead.
    “The US statement needs a very serious explanation. We need to hold negotiations to understand what this statement is about, what the United States is scrapping in particular and what is eventually implementing. Only after this we will be drawing conclusions,” said Sergei Koshelev, the head of the ministry's Military Cooperation Department.

    Commenting on the issue, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Monday in an interview with Kommersant daily, that US changes in the missile defense plans had nothing to do with Moscow’s national security concerns.

    Russia and NATO initially agreed to cooperate on the so-called European missile defense system at the Lisbon summit in November 2010. However, further talks between Russia and the alliance have floundered over NATO’s refusal to grant Russia legal guarantees that the system would not be aimed against Russia’s strategic nuclear deterrent.

    NATO and the United States insist the shield is designed to defend NATO members against missiles from emerging threat nations like North Korea and Iran, and would not be directed at Russia. The alliance has vowed to continue developing and deploying its missile defenses, regardless of the status of missile defense cooperation with Russia.

    19/03/2013 - RIA Novosti

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Hachimoto on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:09 am

    Is there any approximation of the S-400 export price?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:19 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:Is there any approximation of the S-400 export price?

    Approximately US$ 200 million for a division .

    9M96 - US$850K - US$ 900K
    48N6DM - US$ 2.5 mill - US$ 3 mill ( but this missile will not be exported as it's range is above MTCR stipulation )

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:38 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Hachimoto wrote:Is there any approximation of the S-400 export price?

    Approximately US$ 200 million for a division .

    9M96 - US$850K - US$ 900K
    48N6DM - US$ 2.5 mill - US$ 3 mill ( but this missile will not be exported as it's range is above MTCR stipulation )

    Nope.

    S-300V4 division 800-950 million $ (But Army S-300V division is equivalent of PVO S-300P regiment)

    Army S-300V battery unit is a non existent unit and within Russian Army can be found only as a regimental set/(Russian Army calls it

    divisional) consisting of 3 or 4 batteries.

    S-400 division/battery is 400 million $.

    S-300PMU2 division/battery is about 200-250 million $.

    S-300PMU/1 about 150 million $.

    But such prices are only a start. You need to invest a lot more money in other stuff too.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:54 pm

    Viktor wrote:

    S-300V4 division 800-950 million $ (But Army S-300V division is equivalent of PVO S-300P regiment)

    Army S-300V battery unit is a non existent unit and within Russian Army can be found only as a regimental set/(Russian Army calls it

    divisional) consisting of 3 or 4 batteries.

    S-400 division/battery is 400 million $.

    S-300PMU2 division/battery is about 200-250 million $.

    S-300PMU/1 about 150 million $.

    Are you sure these are export prices ? Export divisions will be highly downgraded & long range missiles will NOT be included. Missiles account for the maximum cost for any SAM system . The longer the range of the missile the more it's cost . Details of SAMs sold ( including cost ) by Russia from 2006 - 2013 are reflected in the pic below :




    Your prices are correct but these appear as procurement prices in Russia as opposed to export prices . The S 400 price that you have pegged at $400 million is in all likelihood per 8 launchers ,112 missiles, command and support vehicles (and includes the 40N6 missile which will be missing from the export package ).

    Even PRAVDA puts the price for 1 division at $200 million

    Despite the fact that in creation of comparable SAMs many new technologies were used, it is absolutely clear that the S-400 was the winner. There is no doubt that at the moment, this system is the best ground-based air defense system in the world. This complex has bright future and great potential due to a combination of excellent performance characteristics and relatively low cost - about $200 million for a division .

    http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/05-03-2013/123967-s_400_meads-0/

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:33 am

    Sujoy wrote:Are you sure these are export prices ?

    Who can be sure at anything Very Happy

    We are here discussing military secrets after all Very Happy

    Sujoy wrote: Export divisions will be highly downgraded & long range missiles will NOT be included. Missiles account for the maximum cost for any SAM system . The longer the range of the missile the more it's cost .

    I agree, but you must take in the consideration that export arms tend to cost more money than domestic one. There is one more thing.

    Basic S-300Pxx battery consists of shooting radar and up to 8 TEL. And that cost x amount of money.

    As in aviation where its price can be altered with different options and different equipment much more of the same can be said about air-

    defense, especially Russian one. So lets get back to S-300Pxx. Options may include:

    - 20 and 40 m mast perhaps with shooting radar on it
    - crocodile radar for low altitude detection (one or more depending of the threat assessment)
    - all altitude radar like 96L6 per battery making it more independent
    - wireless and cable communication equipment
    - infrastructural works
    - extra missiles
    - pneumatic decoy
    - other protective equipment like Gazetchik
    - camouflage nets
    - other protective equipment like radar decoys and others

    And all those options are nothing compared to the complexity, size and cost of those options for higher air defense echelon.

    So I think that:

    1. Export equipment does not necessarily mean cheaper but just the contrary (its a high tech high value added product)
    2. Its price may vary highly depending on the equipment that goes with it and its amount.
    3. Missiles do not make most of the price of the air defense systems

    So If you look at your link.

    1. Algeria: deal for 8 divisions (Im sure 2 divisions are fielded but doubt any more - so we dont know the price)
    2. Belarus/Kazahstan: fall under Russian protective integrated air-defense shield and are therefore not relevant for the sake of argument
    3. China: definitely falls under your price range and even much less according to what I have seen but still we have no relevant data
    4. Iran: Five S-300PMU1 divisions for total cost of 800 million $ making each division cost 160 million $
    5. Libya: Two S-300PMU2 division for total cost of 500 million $ making each division cost 250 million $
    6. Vietnam: Two S-300PMU1 division for total cost of 300 million $ making each division cost 150 million $
    7. Croatia: Well it was war and all but still one S-300PMU division for total cost of 200 million $



    Sujoy wrote:Your prices are correct but these appear as procurement prices in Russia as opposed to export prices . The S 400 price that you have pegged at $400 million is in all likelihood per 8 launchers ,112 missiles, command and support vehicles (and includes the 40N6 missile which will be missing from the export package ).

    Even PRAVDA puts the price for 1 division at $200 million

    PRAVDA is not some sorce, we might wait for a better one. But I dont think we will see anything close to even 300 million $ when

    talking about S-400.


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