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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Sujoy
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:32 pm

    Update on S 400 and S 500 ( Rossiyskaya Gazeta - Jan-09-2013 )

    After shutting down production of the S-300 missile defense system, Russia is moving to equip its new S-400 and S-500 systems with hypersonic missiles. A shortage of more advanced missiles, however, stands in the way of the Ministry of Defense’s plans.

    Russia is planning to open two major plants to produce much-needed advanced hypersonic missiles, but experts suggest that the country will be unable to counter a massive NATO attack for the next 10 years.
    By 2014, Russia will launch two major plants to produce the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 hypersonic missiles for its state-of-the-art anti-missile defense systems – S-400 “Triumph” and S-500 “Prometheus.”
    The Ministry of Defense has officially announced that, “with these missiles, surface-to-air missile systems will be able to bring down any target flying at a speed of up to 7 kilometers per second, including nuclear warheads of ballistic missiles.”

    The S-500 system has yet to be completed, while its S-400 predecessor can currently launch the older 48N6 and 9M96 missiles.

    The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 models will be the first Russian missiles with inert warheads, which can destroy nuclear warheads by force of impact (i.e., by hitting them with precision at great speed). No explosives are needed: engineers’ estimates show that a collision at a speed of 7 kilometers (4.3 miles) per second would be sure to destroy just about any flying object.

    The new plants are vital for the development of an anti-missile shield above Russia, since new surface-to-air systems are already entering service unequipped with new missiles.
    For now, the “Triumph” (S-400) defense system is complete with missiles that have been left over from the old S-300 systems. Their range is around 124 miles, whereas the S-400s are designed to intercept targets at a distance of about 250 miles.

    The absence of more advanced missiles stands in the way of fully equipping Russia’s Air Forces and Aerospace Defense Forces with the S-400 systems. Only seven divisions have been supplied with such systems since 2007, with another 49 waiting to receive them, according to official data.

    The missile shortage became even worse after production of the old S-300 systems was halted completely.
    “The last S-300 was produced for the Russian army in 1994 or so,” says Igor Ashurbeili, co-chairman of an expert council on aerospace defense and former chief designer at the Russian defense company Almaz-Antey. “Since then, Russia has only produced these systems for sale. But now even export orders for the S-300s have been suspended.”
    Indeed, Moscow turned down a contract with Iran back in 2010, losing $800 million. Production was completely shut down after rolling out the last S-300 division intended for export, which is to be supplied to Algeria soon. One of the problems faced by the Russian defense industry is that it stopped accepting orders for the S-300s, but has not started to take orders for the S-400s, says Ashurbeili.

    The design of S-400 missiles has not been completed either. The system should be fully compatible with short-, medium- and long-range missiles. Presently, however, only short-range missiles intended for hitting targets within 95 miles have been designed without problems. Medium-range missiles (up to 155 miles) are still “raw,” and their design needs to be finalized.

    The long-range missiles are non-existent, even though such a missile would be a serious hindrance to potential enemy vehicles, including Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). Without these missiles, the S-400 cannot fulfill its purpose – engaging targets at a long range.

    As for the future S-500 system, it will be an S-400 with long-range missiles, according to Alexanderf Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.
    “The S-500s will at best be created in 2020 – no earlier. At present, and for the next 10 years, the chances of countering a massive NATO attack are very low: it takes a long time to recharge the S-300s, so, in the best case, they will only repel the first wave of an assault, which would be 100 to 200 targets,” says Khramchikhin.
    Military expert Vladislav Shurygin agrees with Khramchikhin. “For now, the S-500 is an ephemeral dream, and no one knows if it will ever come true,” he said.

    Even though the S-300s need to be replaced, there is simply no replacement for them. This is why Almaz-Antey is faced with some very important tasks. “Handling them will determine the future not only of the anti-missile defense system, but also of the country as a whole,” says Shurygin. The company is still capable of manufacturing high-quality products, but it needs to modernize its technologies and refurbish its production facilities quickly.
    In other words, the production of modern aerospace defense weaponry is a comprehensive task which requires major technological innovations and modernization of existing production facilities.


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    Arrow-3

    Post  AJ-47 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:15 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]


    The hit to kill warhead means the warhead must be able to manouver... and to do that is needs basically side rocket thrusters like a space ship... aerodynamic surfaces don't work fast enough inside the atmosphere and don't work at all outside the atmosphere.
    not exactly look who the Israeli doing that:
    Israel tests Arrow 3 anti-ballistic missile system
    25 January 2012

    The Israeli Defence Ministry has completed testing of the Arrow 3 anti-ballistic missile system designed to protect the nation against long-range ballistic missile threats in the stratosphere.

    A model of the interceptor missile was launched during the testing in order to check the propulsion system, as well as other tracking sensors. An upgraded version of the Arrow 2 defence system, Arrow 3 is designed to intercept long-range missiles including intermediate-range ballistic missiles at altitudes of over 100km as well as those equipped with non-conventional warheads.

    Developed through a joint effort between the Israel Missile Defense Organization and the US Missile Defense Agency since 2002, the Arrow 3 features capabilities similar to the systems present on the US Aegis destroyers and is able to intercept missiles at great altitudes and distances. Arrow 3 is capable of intercepting missiles from land as well as from sea, thereby improving the destroyer's capabilities in terms of missile-interception altitude and its degree of operational flexibility.

    The system features an Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Boeing-developed Exoatmospheric interceptor based on hit-to-kill technology and is propelled by an ordinary rocket motor equipped with a thrust-vectoring nozzle as opposed to most kill vehicles, which use liquid or gas propulsion. The advanced sensors to be integrated into Israel's future multi-tier system include airborne electro-optical sensors deployed on high-flying unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and future enhanced Green Pine radars, as well as the AN/TPY-2 radar already deployed in Israel.

    Preliminary testing on the missile, conducted by the prime contractor IAI, began in 2011 and the development is expected to continue until the system is declared operational in 2014.

    Image: Israel tests the Arrow 3 anti-ballistic missile system, an upgraded version of the Arrow 2 theatre ballistic missile defence system.

    http://www.army-technology.com/news/newsisrael-tests-arrow-3-anti-ballistic-missile-system







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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:19 am

    At present, and for the next 10 years, the chances of countering a massive NATO attack are very low: it takes a long time to recharge the S-300s, so, in the best case, they will only repel the first wave of an assault, which would be 100 to 200 targets,” says Khramchikhin.

    A NATO coalition of the stupid would collapse if 200 of its planes was shot down... more importantly that is just the air defence forces protecting Russia... it doesn't allow for enemy assets shot down by Russian Air Force and Army and Navy units, let alone enemy forces engaged by Iskander and other systems.

    I would say Russia is quite safe from NATO attack for the next ten years and for the ten years after that...

    an ordinary rocket motor equipped with a thrust-vectoring nozzle as opposed to most kill vehicles, which use liquid or gas propulsion.

    Thrust vectoring... basically what I said... at very high altitude conventional fin or wing surfaces are useless and you need rocket propulsion. Side thruster rockets is one option, vector controlled nozzles is another.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:19 am

    That NATO comment was by Khramchinkhin- he has made very stupid "expert" analyses before about Russian Air Defense.
    In fact, he has very little credibility in Russia....about the same level as Felgenhaur, Kravchyk, etc...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:23 pm

    Considering economical situation in the West and that majority of older cold war era planes will be soon worn out or selled,in 10 years NATO will hardly be able to defend itself, not to attack anyone.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:02 pm

    This is not a Russian development but I came across a very interesting opinion by Dr VK Saraswat who is DRDO Chief on Indias ABM program

    link

    Dismissing PAC-3 as "an outdated system'', the scientist said India's BMD system was "20-30% more capable'' than it. He, however, acknowledged the BMD system had received some help from countries like Israel (LRTRs), France (fire-control radars) and Russia (seekers).

    Saraswat said the new warhead weighed only around 30 kg but was able to generate the impact that a 150 kg omni-directional warhead could make. He said the new guidance system in the missile allowed it to tackle the maneuvers of enemy's incoming missile and could be used against the Russian Topol M class of missiles, which move in a zig-zag manner.


    According to him PAC-3 is an outdated system and the guidance system of Indian ABM system is capable of intercepting Topol-M class missile that follows a Zig Zag trajectory.


    The current interceptor has a Speed between Mach 4 and 5 ( ~ M 4.5 ) while the new interceptor under development to deal with ICBM class missile will have a speed between Mach 6 and 7

    We will complete all our tests for Phase-I by 2010-2011. All BMD building blocks like long-range radars, communication network, mission control centre and launch control centre are in place,'' said Saraswat. "What we are now perfecting are Phase-I interceptor missiles, which fly at 4.5 Mach high-supersonic speeds. We are already working on Phase-II interceptors, which will have hypersonic speeds of 6-7 Mach,''


    How does this compare with speed of Russian Interceptor of S-300V3/V4 and S-400 Class ?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:50 pm

    Are his statements credible?

    Do they have anything Topol like to actually test his words?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:27 pm

    Austin wrote:

    I think Topol-M statement is a bit off.
    Americans with tens of billions invested and much higher experience in ABM design and with several very potent ABM systems do not dare saying anything similar to that Indian guy as
    as its systems are still not tested against even most basic ICBM capability not maneuver ones.

    Recently Putin said Patriot is obsolete and now source from India but Patriot system have been here for a while but is not the only one nor
    the most potent one when it comes to ABM.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:29 pm

    Putin's words on anything military should not be taken seriously - he is clearly reading something someone else wrote and has little idea bout the actual topic.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:Putin's words on anything military should not be taken seriously - he is clearly reading something someone else wrote and has little idea bout the actual topic.

    I agree with you. I dont think Putin has much knowledge about topic but his statement is true. Patriot while being capable system have shortcomings which MEADS corrects.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:10 am

    TR1 wrote:Putin's words on anything military should not be taken seriously - he is clearly reading something someone else wrote and has little idea bout the actual topic.

    Well Putin or for that matter any president are not Nuclear , Military or Missile experts . They would all say what their military or NSA briefed them or made to understand on this matter.

    He is an intelligent man though and can make sense of what he has been briefed.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:25 am

    Started here and ends here.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:40 am

    As the saying goes - Opinions are like A-holes...

    But you don't need to be a genius to deduce that late model S-300's and the S-400 have an edge over the PAC-3

    Liked the pics, but need to be fair.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:47 am

    edited

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:08 am

    edited


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:08 am

    TR1 wrote:Are his statements credible?

    Do they have anything Topol like to actually test his words?


    " Anything Topol like " ? Of late due to the extreme ingenuity , dedication and holier than thou attitude of our DRDO friends we have something that is "missile like" .

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-indian-nuclear-forces-bulletin-of-atomic-scientists-agni/1/215890.html


    BTW those statements about TOPOL are in all likelihood inserted by journalist who are on western payrolls because even for an organization that is as pro US as the Times of India I did not find any mention of Topol in the DRDO chief's statement

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-03-10/india/28027742_1_interceptor-missile-missile-defence-bmd-system

    If indeed the DRDO chief has made such utterances then all I can say is those who know much talk little, while those who know little talk much. Enough said.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:32 am

    I remember Tribue had carried that statement of VKS and I had disscussed at BRF.

    But say PAC-3 is useless and interceptor can intercept Topol-M is taking thing to bit extreme but VKS has been known to make wild statement often so i am not surprised either.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:47 am

    edited

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:50 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Are his statements credible?

    Do they have anything Topol like to actually test his words?


    " Anything Topol like " ? Of late due to the extreme ingenuity , dedication and holier than thou attitude of our DRDO friends we have something that is "missile like" .

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-indian-nuclear-forces-bulletin-of-atomic-scientists-agni/1/215890.html


    BTW those statements about TOPOL are in all likelihood inserted by journalist who are on western payrolls because even for an organization that is as pro US as the Times of India I did not find any mention of Topol in the DRDO chief's statement

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-03-10/india/28027742_1_interceptor-missile-missile-defence-bmd-system

    If indeed the DRDO chief has made such utterances then all I can say is those who know much talk little, while those who know little talk much. Enough said.

    I see, thanks for info!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:34 am

    edited

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:09 pm

    I just looked in this thread for the 1st time in ages.
    How the hell did a discussion about the S-400/S-500 turn into a tirade on Putin and the Russian gov.? Very Happy

    Then again I shouldn't be surprised; we've all seen far worse off-topic drift on forums I'm sure.

    TR1 wrote:When it comes to military I would not even be that complimentary.
    He sounds very rudimentary in any military subject.
    On a related subject, I can't stand how the guy speaks at all. His Russian is....not intelligent and his speech patters give me a headache.

    Russia gov are pretty intelligent at stealing money, not much else though Very Happy

    He has an honest way of speaking - he rarely minces words when he gives his opinion on something, and he usually gives good reasons when explaining his decisions. Which is a valuable quality I think.

    I agree with you about the adoption ban though. That was one sorry ass move.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:18 am

    edited


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:22 am

    Mods requested to remove or transfer the Putin discussion to seperate thread and keeep this thread for S-400/500 discussion. Thanks

    Because of the nature of the posts I have decided to delete the non-S400/s500 related putin posts to tidy up this thread. I don't think the fragments I will be removing will result in a coherent new thread so I will not bother creating one.

    If a member wants to create a new discussion thread then they are welcome to and will not get into trouble for defying a mod or anything.

    Please don not restart and offtopic discussion in this thread.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  SOC on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:37 am

    Austin wrote:IBut say PAC-3 is useless and interceptor can intercept Topol-M is taking thing to bit extreme but VKS has been known to make wild statement often so i am not surprised either.

    PAC-3 IS useless in any sort of ABM discussion, it has no capability against ICBMs.

    Some comments on one of the more amusing articles a page back:

    "For now, the “Triumph” (S-400) defense system is complete with missiles that have been left over from the old S-300 systems."

    Fail. The 48N6DM was an updated 48N6, yes, but it is a new variant designed for the S-400, not some leftover.

    "S-400 predecessor can currently launch the older 48N6 and 9M96 missiles"

    Fail. Or did I miss where the 40N6 was cancelled, and the 9M96 was fielded operationally?

    "“The last S-300 was produced for the Russian army in 1994 or so,” says Igor Ashurbeili, co-chairman of an expert council on aerospace defense and former chief designer at the Russian defense company Almaz-Antey. “Since then, Russia has only produced these systems for sale. But now even export orders for the S-300s have been suspended.”"

    Fail. While they may not have fielded any new-build S-300P variants, they certainly got upgraded electronics and enhanced missile loads. An S-300PM today is far more capable than a factory-fresh S-300PM from 1994.

    "The design of S-400 missiles has not been completed either. The system should be fully compatible with short-, medium- and long-range missiles. Presently, however, only short-range missiles intended for hitting targets within 95 miles have been designed without problems. Medium-range missiles (up to 155 miles) are still “raw,” and their design needs to be finalized.

    The long-range missiles are non-existent, even though such a missile would be a serious hindrance to potential enemy vehicles, including Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). Without these missiles, the S-400 cannot fulfill its purpose – engaging targets at a long range."

    Fail. The short-range missile is the 9M96, which is not in service, the medium range missile is the 48N6DM, which is in service, and the long-range missile is the 40N6, which was supposed to be ready to enter service.

    "As for the future S-500 system, it will be an S-400 with long-range missiles, according to Alexanderf Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis."

    Fail. Simply adding longer-range missiles will do nothing to give it the desired and officially reported capabilities of LEO ASAT and ICBM interception. I assume logic like this is why this guy works for an analysis group and not Almaz-Antey or the MoD.

    Regarding the missile commonality between the S-400 and S-500: if there will be commonality for the long-range A/A role, it'll be the 40N6. The 77N6 variants will likely be tailored for different range/altitude regimes and only used by the S-500, similarly to the 9M82/3 for the S-300V. This is speculation on my part but seems like a logical interpretation of what will actually happen given 1) my experience researching the development and operation of Soviet and Russian strategic air defense systems and 2) the official reports regarding the intended roles and capabilities for the S-400 and S-500 systems.

    And for what it's worth:

    TR1 wrote:Russia gov are pretty intelligent at stealing money, not much else though

    ...which makes them no different from any other government, really.

    GarryB wrote:American adoptive parents abuse and kill Russian children and get not punnishment from the US judicial system.

    In the interest of clarity the issue is that the entire system here is broken, i.e. your statement is accurate WITHOUT the word Russian. I could go into why the government won't fix stuff like this, but I won't because frankly I don't care. Except to say that we have enough problems of our own, you keep yours.

    And just because I feel like taking this fully off topic like everyone else, let's throw in the pot that 1) they aren't called "Malvinas", getting beat down rescinds your naming rights, and 2) Bodyline was legal so shut up about it already

    Anyone else I can irritate or offend, or can we get back to the freaking missiles already? pwnd

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:24 am

    I have left Flaming pythons post intact as it contains the gist of what TR1 was saying and a very succinct reply by FP.

    The other posts I left were because they were on topic enough to leave.

    I would also add that most of the posts that needed editing were TR1 and Mine, for which I apologise to the other members for my part.

    No more to be said about Putin except where relevant to this threads topic please.
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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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