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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Russian Patriot
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:45 pm


    Moscow, Central Economic region Air Defense to receive S-400, S-500 systems

    RIA Novosti

    11:51 14/08/2010

    MOSCOW, August 14 (RIA Novosti) - The Air Defense System of Moscow and the Russian Central Economic region will receive new weapons, including prestigious S-400 and S-500 air defense systems, Air Force Commander Colonel General Alexander Zelin said on Saturday.

    "We have Air Defense System which protects Moscow and the Central Economic region; this system operates, accomplishes tasks and, of course, undergoes changes," Zelin said.

    Central economic region is located in the European part of Russia; it is the country's major industrial region. Besides Moscow, major cities include Nizhny Novgorod, Smolensk, Yaroslavl, Vladimir, Tula, Dzerzhinsk, and Rybinsk.

    "We will buy a significant number of S-400s before 2020. They will not just go to the five anti-aircraft missile regiments equipped with this system, but also to a much larger number [of regiments.] We are also discussing the [purchase of] S-500 anti-aircraft missile systems," Zelin said.

    The S-400 Triumf (SA-21 Growler) is designed to intercept and destroy airborne targets at distances of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles), twice the range of the U.S. MIM-104 Patriot, and two-and-a-half times that of Russia's S-300PMU-2.

    The system is also believed to be able to destroy stealth aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles, and is effective at ranges of up to 3,500 kilometers (2,200 miles) and speeds of up to 4.8 kilometers (3 miles) per second.

    Regular S-400 battalion comprises at least eight launchers with 32 missiles and a mobile command post, according to various sources.

    In 2009, Russia deployed S-400 air defense systems in the Far East to counter the potential threat posed by N. Korea's missile tests.

    So far, Russia has three S-400 battalions.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100814-rianovosti06.htm

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:18 pm

    Well batter see results of such talk.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:05 am

    Zelin comments on new SAM systems — says nothing new

    Russia is developing radically new air defense systems Vityaz and S-500 and aircraft capable of operating in outer space, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said on Saturday.

    “In fact a new system with new weapons is being developed – this is a system called Vityaz,” Zelin said on Echo Moskvy radio.

    Compared to the S-300 system, Vityaz has a significantly larger combat ammunition load and requires a shorter time to get it operational, Zelin said.

    S-400 air defense missile systems will be supplied to air defense forces protecting the central industrial region of Russia and Moscow, he said.

    Russia is also developing the S-500 system, which will serve not only as an air defense but also a missile defense system. “This weapon will enter the Air Force’s inventory by 2020,” he said.

    Asked whether Russia is working on constructing planes capable of operating in outer space, Zelin replied, “Naturally, it is.”

    Such projects are being pursued in other countries as well, Zelin said. “We are also doing this. We cannot trail along at the back. There are projects, there is understanding as to how to do this, and there are technical solutions,” he said.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:49 pm

    What about this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDke56vMiU

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:52 am

    Most certainly an AESA radar with an AESA jammer which gives it a flexibility of high bandwidth plus smart energy management which give it an edge over advanced high power PESA like the S-300/400 have at the moment.

    AESA besides having good jamming ability has very good resistance to jamming making it a difficult target to jam and they tend to degrade slowly.

    Although there is still a good decade from now where we will see wide spread of AESA radar , it high time they get into development of advanced AESA for next generation of SAM and even current sam which will help in low usage of power and offer high immunity to jamming , the S-500 certainly have a AESA MFR.

    That is by no means to say it is easy to jam the radar of these advanced and mature PESA have their own trick up their sleeve like adaptive beam control ,frequency agility , variable power wave form and low side lobes making it as difficult as it gets to jam it , more ever if the enemy aircraft is emmiting like JSF is being shown to then it makes their stealth factor vulnerabile and detectability high which can make them a good target via passive missile attack.

    The bottom line will be to get into AESA domain preferably using advanced GaN TR module and dual mode radar then exploit the technology to the fullest to give it an advantage over other systems.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:45 pm

    @austin

    Thnx for info.
    I am a chm egg dont know much about radars things.........But do tell me in layman language what is no. of S-300 missiles be adequate to take down one F-35

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:21 am

    It is almost impossible to say.

    One for one during tests in the early 1990s with former East German Mig-29s all of the wests best fighters went and tested themselves against it and lost because of the helmet mounted sight and the R-73 AAM with its high off boresight capability.
    Very simply aircraft like the F-16 could get on the Mig-29s tail about 60% of the time but even when they did they had already been "shot down".
    These tests were made as realistic as possible to properly test various scenarios, but after the tests and the practise and training when western fighters did meet Mig-29s in combat it was very one sided... largely because the western fighters had trained against Mig-29s already... and you don't train to see how nice the other plane is, you train to find strengths and weaknesses... to beat the enemy.
    They found its strengths and its weaknesses and used it against them when they met in real combat.
    Basically what they learned is to use AMRAAMs.

    To defeat the F-35... the F-35 is stealthy but not invisible. The S-400 which is replacing the S-300 in service, is designed to intercept small radar cross section targets, and even if they don't work there are plenty of other SAMs that would be deployed to do the job. Most Russian SAMs have alternative optical guidance options that would allow the engagement of small RCS targets. And of course there are Russian fighters as well, the Su-35 has an AESA long wave radar antenna in its wing leading edges to find low observable and stealth targets and the PAK FA will have something similar too.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:32 pm

    @GarryB
    Thnx.
    The inclusion of ADVANCED MEDIUM-RANGE AIR-TO-AIR MISSILE along with Helmet Mounted Cueing systems & AIRBORNE WARNING AND CONTROL SYSTEM; West is of the view that dogfights will be nonexistent in the coming future so the agility much proclaimed by Sukhois will be of no use!!

    What your point of view is!!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:10 pm

    Of course it will matter. US overcalculated itself with F-22 price and now when is stuck with F-35 is saying sensors matters and thats it.

    Well I thing in such technology war everything matters and slightest thing you can exploit in your advantage can easily change the outcome.

    In 90ies MIG-29 proved to be outstanding in comparison with US fighters because of HMS/R-73 combo. Now its race on multiple fiels.

    Radar range and capability and sensors in general, speed, maneuverability, missiles, stealth etc etc ....

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:09 am

    My opinion is that before it was known about Soviet helmet mounted sights and the R-73 I think the west had little faith in the BVR missile and wanted close in knife fights because of their belief in better training and higher pilot skill leading to an advantage in close in fights that would give them a victory in the air.
    Testing Mig-29s with R-73s was a real kick in the balls for them, though they would never admit that in combat even with a lower standard of training eastern AF pilots would have been able to do to NATO pilots what British Harrier pilots did to the Argentine pilots in the Falklands war. Basically shoot first and kill first before the other guy could line you up for a shot that had a chance to kill you.

    Now that the west has weapons comparable to the R-73 they realise that WVR combat comes down to having to kill the other guy before he even sees you. The thing is that if you see the other guy and fire a missile he can still kill you as long as he sees you and fires before your missile hits him... WVR has become too dangerous in big expensive western fighters.

    Now the focus is long range missiles, but while previously the problem has been reliability, it is currently more a case of kill zones and correctly identifying the target. There is an enormous amount of incoming and outgoing traffic in a war zone and things like cruise missiles and helos and all sorts of military aircraft flying around mistakes can be made... BVR air combat makes that even more likely.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:23 pm

    @GarryB

    Thx
    Mods why you dont have a thanks button No

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:30 pm

    Surface to Air Missile Effectiveness in Past Conflicts

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Andy_Wiz on Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:13 am

    A guy on another forum found a pretty old video with new info on Morfeus, seekers etc!!!! Cool

    This was aired o TVC chanel more than year ago, about the comprehensive joint air defence system and S-500. Video is amateurish and not that interesting(the say for example:^ "The army awaits S-400" as if it wasn't delivered to the army by then etc.) watch in Russian

    There are the toys...

    The advanced X-band target seeker with digital diagram formation


    Unknown dome-shaped radar sphere (proably Morfeus related)


    A sample of dome lense of multirole radar (Morfeus) Morfeus got AESA! Twisted Evil


    29Ya6 transmit-recieve module, and active phased communitcation line 43Ya6


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:13 am

    Nice find Andy... thanks for sharing.

    That second picture looks like something off a Bear bomber that is used to detect incoming missiles by their heat signature that is part of the defensive electronics suite.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:26 pm

    So S-400 using AESA??

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:06 am

    nightcrawler wrote:So S-400 using AESA??

    No... S-500 might be.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:05 am

    AESA does have some advantages over PESA, but those advantages are not huge.
    Both can change pulse signal frequency and are electronically scanned.
    The primary problem with AESA is that it needs the production capacity to make millions and millions of transmit receive modules, and make them accurately.
    Just one giant radar for an S-300 system would be 1,000 by 1,000 elements so that is 1 million TR modules just for one radar.
    And for what?
    A slight improvement in performance. A lot more heat generated.
    A huge increase in power requirements.

    Right now it is not worth it because of the current state of the Russian MIC.
    In 10 years time however as AESAs are more widespread and the technology has improved most in service Russian radars will likely be AESA.
    The step from a conventional dish radar to a PESA is almost as big as to AESA so in many ways the Russian military is enjoying many of the advantages of electronically scanned radar but without the cost and problems of AESA.
    Not ideal, but that is the situation.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:41 am

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array#Advantages

    Razz


    So, on the S-400/500, does Russia have a ground-based ASAT weapon comparable to the SM-3 yet?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:25 am

    nightcrawler wrote:So S-400 using AESA??

    No it uses modern PESA , S-400 has been criticized for its high power consumption.

    The would move to AESA with S-500

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:49 am

    First of all LPI mode in an AESA is of ZERO use to an air defence SAM in most cases.
    PESA antennas already benefit from very small sidelobes... the Patriot system that shot down a few allied aircraft in the gulf was defeated by a HARM only because the aircraft armed with the HARM was being painted by the radar of the Patriot.

    The PESA radars of S-300 and S-400 will only be vulnerable to ARMs if these radars are already targeting the aircraft carrying those ARMs... in which case the S-300 and S-400s ability to shoot down both aircraft and ARMS will mean an AESA was not necessary.

    Regarding jamming the range of the S-400 means that jamming platforms will not be able to get close enough to be effective so AESA is no advantage here either.

    There are a lot of other sensors that operate with S-300 and S-400 batteries that don't emit anything at all that are also used for target detection and tracking.

    So, on the S-400/500, does Russia have a ground-based ASAT weapon comparable to the SM-3 yet?

    Very funny man.

    Moscow ABM system has been operational for 40 years...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:17 am

    GarryB wrote:First of all LPI mode in an AESA is of ZERO use to an air defence SAM in most cases.
    PESA antennas already benefit from very small sidelobes...

    I wouldnt say ZERO use because you can make the AESA run in LPI mode and make the whole battery less vulnerable to detection and HARM attack.

    Certainly compared to fighter aircraft using LPI/AESA for stealthy track a SAM battery would have lesser use.


    the Patriot system that shot down a few allied aircraft in the gulf was defeated by a HARM only because the aircraft armed with the HARM was being painted by the radar of the Patriot.

    The PESA radars of S-300 and S-400 will only be vulnerable to ARMs if these radars are already targeting the aircraft carrying those ARMs... in which case the S-300 and S-400s ability to shoot down both aircraft and ARMS will mean an AESA was not necessary.

    Well a AESA or PESA does not necessarly have to paint the aircraft to make it vulnerable to HARM attack , SAM batteries will be vulnerable to HARM attack if its emitting or just scanning the airspace and got detected as hostile by RWR/Sensors of HARM aircraft.

    The aircraft in gulf fired the HARM because the Patriot detected it as hostile in friendly airspace due to IFF issue and as self defence the aircraft has to fire HARM because its RWR accurately identified it as being under attack in friendly airspace.

    Regarding jamming the range of the S-400 means that jamming platforms will not be able to get close enough to be effective so AESA is no advantage here either.

    Yeah it will be very difficult to jam those huge power PESA of S-300/400 that has extremely potent ECCM features , the only way is to overwhelm its tracking/guiding capability by using many decoys missile,real missile,harm and Jammers all working in tandem to overwhelm S-300 radars , any thing less will be bad for the adversary

    There are a lot of other sensors that operate with S-300 and S-400 batteries that don't emit anything at all that are also used for target detection and tracking.

    Yes lots of passive sensors , triangulation at emmiting target using passive sensors and firing LR missile , different bands of radars , bistatic radars etc


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:55 am

    I wouldnt say ZERO use because you can make the AESA run in LPI mode and make the whole battery less vulnerable to detection and HARM attack.

    No version of HARM has a range of 400km so encouraging a HARM attack would mean getting the platform as well as any weapons it launches.

    S-300 and S-400 missiles will be co-located with systems to defeat HARM type weapons like TOR or PANTSIR.

    S-300 and S-400 systems are fully mobile and will not simply sit and broadcast their location all the time.

    Well a AESA or PESA does not necessarly have to paint the aircraft to make it vulnerable to HARM attack , SAM batteries will be vulnerable to HARM attack if its emitting or just scanning the airspace and got detected as hostile by RWR/Sensors of HARM aircraft.

    PESA and AESA use very narrow beams and generate very small sidelobes. Sidelobes is wasted energy that the ARMs normally home in on. This makes PESA and AESA much harder to target with ARMs.

    The aircraft in gulf fired the HARM because the Patriot detected it as hostile in friendly airspace due to IFF issue and as self defence the aircraft has to fire HARM because its RWR accurately identified it as being under attack in friendly airspace.

    And the only reason it successfully got a HARM kill is because the missile was fired from the aircraft being targeted at the time... it homed on the main beam rather than the sidelobes.

    PESA and AESA are electronically scanned! The scan rate can cover the entire FOV of the radar in a milisecond... no ARM can use that to home in on.

    Yeah it will be very difficult to jam those huge power PESA of S-300/400 that has extremely potent ECCM features , the only way is to overwhelm its tracking/guiding capability by using many decoys missile,real missile,harm and Jammers all working in tandem to overwhelm S-300 radars , any thing less will be bad for the adversary

    And those S-300 and S-400 batteries are not operating in a vaccuum.
    If an enemy airfield is shown to be the source of decoys then that airfield can be engaged. A mobile battery can be moved to a position where a jammer aircraft orbiting offshore could also be engaged.

    Not all air defences are in the control of the inept.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:14 am

    GarryB wrote:No version of HARM has a range of 400km so encouraging a HARM attack would mean getting the platform as well as any weapons it launches.

    Well just because S-400 has 400 km range does not mean any aircraft cant go beyond that bubble , there are tactics ,low level flight ,DRFM jamming, stealth aircraft to get close and that just applies to any SAM out there.


    S-300 and S-400 missiles will be co-located with systems to defeat HARM type weapons like TOR or PANTSIR.

    S-300 and S-400 systems are fully mobile and will not simply sit and broadcast their location all the time.

    No doubt they would try hard to not get beaten by HARM , its a game of tactics , innovation ,motivation and capability on both sides.

    PESA and AESA use very narrow beams and generate very small sidelobes. Sidelobes is wasted energy that the ARMs normally home in on. This makes PESA and AESA much harder to target with ARMs.

    Low Side Lobes makes HARM job that much harder but not impossible , HARM like KH-31P too have wide band sensors to attack a range of target , have pre-set target data stored in them about target information obtained from even a low scan exposure , so even if the target radar shuts off due to attack , its position is already noted in HARM/RWR memory and they travel at that preset location to attack.

    I have also read of israel HARM system that just loiters over an area for long time and in case SAM lits up it glides to the target and attack it


    And the only reason it successfully got a HARM kill is because the missile was fired from the aircraft being targeted at the time... it homed on the main beam rather than the sidelobes.

    It was attacked in self defence in friendly airspace and direct painting made the HARM job easier , like I said low side lobes makes the job harder for HARM , AESA has lower sidelobe then PESA.

    AESA can manage their energy much better and smarter then a PESA.

    An AESA SAM battery with LPI will just mange its energy well and with a lowest side lobe will make a smart HARM attack that more difficult

    PESA and AESA are electronically scanned! The scan rate can cover the entire FOV of the radar in a milisecond... no ARM can use that to home in on.

    Even a single scan is good for modern ESM to know it was scanned and know the bearing , modern ESM has 100 % probability of intercept capability , unless its an LPI , milisec scan that would be difficult but not impossible.

    And those S-300 and S-400 batteries are not operating in a vaccuum.
    If an enemy airfield is shown to be the source of decoys then that airfield can be engaged. A mobile battery can be moved to a position where a jammer aircraft orbiting offshore could also be engaged.

    Like I said S-300 and 400 will be a difficult customer and its also about tactics , training , motivation and innovation by field SAM operators.

    During Kosovo NATO was given a bloody nose by Serbia SAM operators even though they operated 70's SAM but had better tactics , training , motivation and were innovative , inspite of airspace filled with modern HARM , jammers,fighters and UAV they could stay alive and fight till the end

    Never underestimate people ability to innovate and beat the best.

    Not all air defences are in the control of the inept

    Agreed , I can take two opposite example of Syria,Iraq and Kosovo , I bet Warsaw trained Serbia could beat the best even though they were underdogs with inferior syste,

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:34 am

    GarryB wrote:First of all LPI mode in an AESA is of ZERO use to an air defence SAM in most cases.
    PESA antennas already benefit from very small sidelobes... the Patriot system that shot down a few allied aircraft in the gulf was defeated by a HARM only because the aircraft armed with the HARM was being painted by the radar of the Patriot.

    The PESA radars of S-300 and S-400 will only be vulnerable to ARMs if these radars are already targeting the aircraft carrying those ARMs... in which case the S-300 and S-400s ability to shoot down both aircraft and ARMS will mean an AESA was not necessary.

    Regarding jamming the range of the S-400 means that jamming platforms will not be able to get close enough to be effective so AESA is no advantage here either.

    There are a lot of other sensors that operate with S-300 and S-400 batteries that don't emit anything at all that are also used for target detection and tracking.

    So, on the S-400/500, does Russia have a ground-based ASAT weapon comparable to the SM-3 yet?

    Very funny man.

    Moscow ABM system has been operational for 40 years...

    Yeah, that's why I'm asking, ABM-135 Galoshs with Nuclear warheads aren't exactly comparable Razz

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:26 am

    The S-300 can be linked up with the 1L119 Nebo SVU AESA radar.

    If 1L119 Nebo SVU is linked with the S-300 it will open entirly new windows of opportunity in both the offensive and defensive roles.
    As a side note I have listened USA trying to defeat S-300 & the evolving series using the principles of SIGNIT:


    Take the music analogy. If you hear a piece of music, am certain you are sophisticated enough to recognize the trumpet, the snare drum, the cymbals, the bass guitar, and so on. You should be able to replicate that piece to a high degree of fidelity.

    Signals intelligence (SIGINT) is no different except that the radar signal is nowhere as structurally complex as Beethoven's Fifth or Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven. We have been conducting SIGINT flights throughout the Cold War.

    For example...
    http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/sr_sensors_pg3.htm
    The SR-71's Mach 3 speed during its normal operational mission profiles created a very beneficial side effect which was to stimulate the enemy's radars and missile systems. Their responses to the Blackbird's flight path resulted in jamming, missile system tracking, and other electronic activity. The electronic signals generated during these responses were collected by the SR-71's own Electro-Magnetic Reconnaissance (EMR) System as well as other collection assets propositioned in the area at the time. The enemy's capabilities and frequencies used for each radar or missile site were then recorded and documented revealing the enemy's battle plan.

    What we do is provoke the Soviets into transmitting their air defense radars. The longer we record their transmissions, the better we understand Soviet tactics and technology.

    SIGINT is not confined to airborne methods...
    Have no doubt we can replicate the S-300's radar signals to %99.999 fidelity and apply it against any aircraft we want...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Mildenhall
    From Mildenhall the RC-135s flew ELINT and COMINT missions along the borders of Poland, the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. The twenty or so specialists on board the RC-135s during such missions listened to and recorded military radio frequencies and communications.
    http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/sr_sensors_pg3.htm
    In the 1970s, funding was available for an improvement to the system, so its replacement was come to be known as the Elint-Improvement Program (EIP) System...

    Eastern Europe was a necessary deployment for the SA series. It was out of Mildenhall that we finally in 1978 recorded enough of the SA-5's track and targeting radars to develop an ECM against it and the success was from such a coordinated mission. What happened was that prior to EIP, we could only do the 'shotgun' approach and record as much of the known spectrum as we can. Post EIP enabled the SR-71 to focus on the SA's volume search freq, wait for the associated track freq, then seek out the inevitable targeting freq. The upgrade enabled the SR-71 to ignore the rest of the spectrum. Then the information was analyzed and correlated against what the larger -135 recorded. The result was that we had the SA-5's entire radar operation, from acquisition (volume search), to individual target track, and finally to fire control.

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