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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    ahmedfire

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:51 pm


    Moscow’s air defense is long ruined – military specialist

    A leading military expert has caused a furor by saying that Moscow is incapable of defending itself against a serious air attack.

    Missiles that used to be key to Moscow’s defense, the S-300 long-range surface-to-air missiles, are so outdated that they will not be able to protect the Russian capital, declared the co-chairman of Russia’s Expert Air and Space Defense Council, Igor Ashurbeili.

    The S-300 missiles are now being removed from production and will be replaced with new S-500 missiles. The substitution, however, will not be completed until 2050, which, Ashurbeili claimed, could leave Moscow without any way to defend itself in case of war.

    The claim caused wide outrage among Russia’s military and officials, who say Ashurbeili’s remark in itself poses a danger to Moscow, revealing classified information and thus threatening the capital’s safety.

    No one, however, said that the information released is incorrect. Other military specialists say that the facts were widely available long before the fuss and do not expose anything new or threatening.

    This is not the first time such information on Russia’s defense has made headlines. In May 2010, a former chief of Russia’s air force, Anatoly Kornukov, claimed that Russia is lagging 25-30 years behind the US in terms of air and space defense and would not be able to repel a potential threat.

    The root of the problem, Kornukov said, is in the meltdown of the defense industries in Russia, which have lost qualified personnel and key technologies, leaving the industrial plants in “pitiful condition.”

    In Soviet times, the expert added, it was widely known that Russian air defense systems were capable of shooting down 98 percent of intruding enemy planes. Now the figure has shrunk to 20 percent. Therefore, if North Korea or Iran launched an attack on Russia with short-range missiles, Russia would not be capable of shooting them down.

    Another former top official in the country’s military, Anatoly Sitnov, who used to be in charge of military equipment for the Defense Ministry, said that Russia’s army has lost 300 key technologies in air and space defense – for example, aircraft plants as well as factories for missile defense systems.

    Political analyst Viktor Mizin from the Moscow University of International Relations told RT that there is no reason to be concerned with the state of Russia’s military forces.

    “I don’t see any reasons for this kind of panic,” he said. “We are not in a state of Cold War. Of course, the concept of protecting the country differs from that of the Soviet Union. Now we are protecting the major industrial centers, and the S-400 are doing their job well.”

    http://rt.com/news/prime-time/moscow-defense-air-attack/
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:14 pm

    The S-300s in service are still able to do their job.

    Production of S-300 is ending so that production of the Vityaz system can be begun and ramped up.

    They are building a new factory to make S-400 to increase its production rate, which has so far been a little slow.

    There will be a gap where S-300 is not in production and Vityaz is not ready for production either, but that can't really be helped, and it should be kept in mind that there are now two S-400 regiments in Moscow, plus a few remaining S-300 regiments too.

    This is rather more defence than most other capitals of the world enjoy.

    BTW the idea that North Korea or Iran would launch a missile attack on Moscow is just plain silly... I could understand why they would attack US interests, but they are hardly going to risk retaliation attacking Russia.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:11 pm


    This is not the first time such information on Russia’s defense has made headlines. In May 2010, a former chief of Russia’s air force, Anatoly Kornukov, claimed that Russia is lagging 25-30 years behind the US in terms of air and space defense and would not be able to repel a potential threat.

    25-30 years ?!!!!!
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:40 pm

    Translation:

    We need to spend much more money on air and space defence because the US has superiority.

    This guy is claiming the sky is falling because air and space defence is underfunded compared with what the US is spending.

    Considering the US has been spending more on "defence"... well lets be honest it has been spending more on imperialism per year than the rest of the world has spent combined.

    More than three quarters of the countries on this planet would be happy for the US defence budget to be their national budget... or their GDP.

    The reality is that production of new missiles is slow for the big stuff and that is combined with the problem that they can't produce it fast enough for export and domestic production.

    Just looking on paper they have too many in service designed that are all upgraded, but that is also a bit of a blessing.

    The new systems are inter service systems and will likely be used by the Navy, the Army, the Air Force, and the Space and Air Defence forces.

    From short range to long range they will consist of Morfei, a short range CIWS type missile that will also be an AAM(5km), then Pantsir-S1(20km), then Vityaz(40km,120km), then S-400 (400km), and finally S-500(600km). With the addition of Verba MANPADS these are the Air Forces and Navies and Armies and Space and Air Defence missiles of the future.

    Comparable US systems would be Chapparal/Sea Ram, ESSM, Patriot, THAAD, and SM-3. Their main ABM missiles are not really comparable as they are enormous and designed for mid flight interception of missiles, for which Russia would have no where to base.

    Other Russian SAMs in service include SA-8, SA-9, SA-10, SA-12, SA-13, SA-14, SA-15, SA-16, SA-11/17, SA-18, SA-19, and SA-22, plus new versions of SA-12 and SA-15, and SA-18, and SA-22. (AFAIK SA-22 was Pantsir, so Pantsir-S1 is a serious upgrade).
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:51 am

    I think time of stopping production of S-300 is well planed to retool and prepare production line for Vityaz and Morphei SAMs. It doesn't mean that Almaz-Antey in that time will not produce anything, they still produce S-400, Buk-M2, Tor-M1/M2, S-300V4, etc. If they want to start production of new systems in 2013, 2014, than it is time to start preparing production line and replace old machinery with new ones to have proper quality of new systems and that production line could produce them without problems for few decades.

    I don't think air defense of Moscow have any problems. They got two regiments (one brigade) of S-400 and as I know, they will get the third regiment in this year and maybe the fourth next year. They already send one regiment (brigade?) of S-300PM to St Petersburg, which was replaced with S-400. If Moscow air defense is that weak, they will for sure keep those S-300 there. Moscow regiment also get Pantsirs, which also increase capabilities.

    Russian air defense will buy quite a lot of S-400 and replacement for S-300 is Vityaz, not S-400.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:13 am

    SOC is a good source of info... and a nice guy too.

    Have read that the S-500 will be trailer mounted and will not be a totally mobile system.

    Whether that means it is silo based and will be put in existing Moscow ABM silos or whether it can be launched from its container tube after being erected by a separate vehicle is hard to say.

    When considered against the number of ICBMs in American service the 68 missiles seems inadequate to offer complete defence, but rather defence against a ‘rogue’ launch.

    I would quibble with this comment in that the ABM system around Moscow was never intended as a national defence system to stop everything the US could launch at the entire Warsaw Pact.

    Its purpose was to keep Moscow operating long enough to get the launch commands out to the necessary forces to make sure they launch immediately.
    As such it only needs to prevent missile impacts for a period of perhaps 10-20 minutes or so, and while the US and NATO and China combined have a lot of missiles the idea that more than 68 warheads would be headed for Moscow is probably an over estimation... the most likely threat would be the dozen or so SLBMs that will be arriving within 5-10 minutes of a conflict... after 30 minutes when the ICBMs arrive from the mainland US the forces will likely have been notified and all the important people will be in their bunkers.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:16 am

    Russian air defense will buy quite a lot of S-400 and replacement for S-300 is Vityaz, not S-400.

    And the important point there is that an S-300 TEL has 4 missiles ready to engage targets from any direction, while the Vityaz has 16 missiles at least using the same TEL.

    So rather than immediately replacing the S-300s they could make missile packs compatible with existing S-300 launchers to update the really old systems first and get the system into service quickly as they had missile ranges of 70-90km so the 120km long range Vityaz should just drop in.

    A new Vityaz system will have a different design TEL with as many as 32 missiles potentially. But could operate with S-300 assets like mast mounted radar and other assets to improve its performance.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:15 am

    Development of S-500 air defense systems behind schedule - paper

    RIA Novosti

    07:11 05/10/2011

    MOSCOW, October 5 (RIA Novosti) - The development of Russia's formidable S-500 air defense system is lagging behind schedule by at least two years, the Izvestia daily said on Wednesday citing a defense industry source.

    According to the source, the first prototypes will be ready and tested by 2015, while the deliveries to the Russian army could start in 2017 at the earliest.

    "The production cycle of this system is about two years. Therefore, even if the prototypes are ready by 2015, the military will not receive production models earlier than in 2017," the source said.

    A source in the Russian Defense Ministry confirmed that the earlier announced schedule of S-500 deliveries in 2015 was "too optimistic," as the prototypes should have already been undergoing field tests to meet the deadlines.

    The S-500, a long-range air defense missile system, is expected to become the backbone of a unified aerospace defense system being formed in Russia.

    The system is expected to have an extended range of up to 600 km (over 370 miles) and simultaneously engage up to 10 targets.

    The Russian military has demanded that the system must be capable of intercepting ballistic missiles and hypersonic cruise missiles and plans to order at least ten S-500 battalions for the future Russian Aerospace Defense.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-111005-rianovosti01.htm
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:31 pm

    The S-500, a long-range air defense missile system, is expected to become the backbone of a unified aerospace defense system being formed in Russia.

    The important thing to keep in mind is that they are going from air defence being handled by the PVO as part of the Air Force, and Space Forces handling threats in space, to a new Space and Air Defence force that handles threats from 1m above the ground to outer space vehicles/weapons.

    There are a lot of changes need to be made and new forces rebuilt and developed.

    I rather doubt all that will be ready before 2020 because these forces operate above the 4 military districts but have to cooperate with those districts, and they will need a lot of space based assets to be added before they are effective and they need to look at their ground and air based forces they just acquired and make sense of it.

    They need to make choices like will the PAK FA be a good interceptor for Russia, or do they need a new replacement for the Mig-31... perhaps with 5th gen engines and AESA radar, or do they want something more conceptually like the Tu-128 Fiddler which will be a larger aircraft with long range with large missiles, perhaps with super cruise flight performance to extend range etc etc.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:48 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]

    They need to make choices like will the PAK FA be a good interceptor for Russia, or do they need a new replacement for the Mig-31... perhaps with 5th gen engines and AESA radar, or do they want something more conceptually like the Tu-128 Fiddler which will be a larger aircraft with long range with large missiles, perhaps with super cruise flight performance to extend range etc etc.

    hmm reminds me of the Izdelye 7.01 ..
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:08 pm

    Scaling the required flight speed back from 2.83 of the Mig-31 back to a super cruise performance of maybe 1.6-1.8 should make the design orders of magnitude cheaper and allow much more fuel and weapons to be carried and a much larger AESA array.






    With an air launched S-400 like missile that in its ground based version has a range of 400km when launched from above 15,000 metres and at mach 1.5 would likely extend the range greatly... 600km or more... in fact an S-500 might allow putting satellites in low earth orbit...
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:42 am

    Russia's Security Service (FSB) has detained a Chinese national they say was trying to gain access to secret information about the S-300 air defense system

    13:20 05/10/2011
    MOSCOW, October 5 (RIA Novosti)
    Tags: S-300, State Security Ministry, FSB, Russia, Moscow

    Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) has detained a Chinese national they say was trying to gain access to secret information about the S-300 air defense system, the FSB said in a statement on Wednesday.

    Tun Shenjun was arrested on October 28, 2010. News of his arrest has only just been made public.

    "It was established that the Chinese citizen was working for the State Security Ministry, the security agency of the People's Republic of China, as a translator for official delegations and was gathering secret information from Russian citizens about technical and repair documentation for the S-300 missile system," the FSB said.

    Russia's General Prosecutor's office filed a criminal case at a Moscow court on October 4.

    Russia has supplied the S300 system to China, and Beijing is also licensed to manufacture it.

    The S300 has been replaced in Russia with the S400.

    The Chinese authorities have yet to comment.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20111005/167402993.html
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:43 pm

    This news is worth putting in this thread I think as it has serious implications regarding the S-400 and S-500.

    Team VKO Taking Shape
    by Russian Defense Policy
    Team VKO is taking shape according to Kommersant. Last fall, President Medvedev, of course, ordered the establishment of a unified VKO. Since then, it’s become clear that Space Troops (KV) Commander, General-Lieutenant Oleg Ostapenko would head it.

    And KV will be the base for the new service [vid or вид]. According to the Genshtab plan, VKO will unite all PVO and PRO systems. And it will control the current KV, Moscow-based OSK VKO, and PVO units from the Air Forces.

    The paper’s Defense Ministry source says VKO’s top officers have been identified, and paperwork was sent for Medvedev’s signature last month. So expect a decree soon.

    General-Lieutenant Valeriy Ivanov will be in charge of PVO and PRO for VKO. He’s a 50-year-old career SAM officer, who commanded PVO divisions or corps in the Far East, Volga, and Moscow MDs. From 2007-10, he commanded the Far East’s 11th AVVSPVO. He became commander of the OSK VKO about this time last year.

    General-Major Oleg Maydanovich is a 47-year-old KV missile engineer who will head VKO’s space monitoring. He has long service at Plesetsk and Baykonur, and has been chief of both. He’s now chief of Russia’s space systems testing and control center.

    Colonel Andrey Ilin will be chief of the VKO’s command and control post at Krasnoznamensk. He served many years at the space tracking post in Shchelkovo. He’s been chief of staff at Plesetsk since last year.

    So the VKO is the new Space and Air Defence Forces that combines the old Space defence forces (KV) and the Air Defence Forces (PVO... part of the Air Force) under the control of one guy over the 4 military districts.

    This new organisation will be responsible for air and space surveillance and defence from threats of any kind in or above the atmosphere and will be the primary operator of the S-500 and also a major operator of the S-400 as well.

    It will operate satellites using optics and radar, aircraft, and land based radar and missiles and optronic sensors.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:07 pm

    here is a follow up post to the article I posted above:

    VKO Cadre Changes
    by Russian Defense Policy
    Didn't have to wait long for this. This morning President Medvedev signed out the ukaz with appointments to command positions in the VKO Troops (VVKO).

    Kommersant's source was mostly, but not completely, right. Valeriy Ivanov will be chief of staff, and Sergey Popov, the chief of air defense for the Air Forces, will move to VVKO to command its Air and Missile Defense Command.

    Appoint:

    General-Lieutenant Valeriy Mikhaylovich Ivanov, Chief of Staff, First Deputy Commander, Troops of Aerospace Defense, relieved as Commander, Operational-Strategic Command of Aerospace Defense.
    General-Lieutenant Sergey Aleksandrovich Lobov, Deputy Commander, Troops of Aerospace Defense, relieved as Deputy Commander, Space Troops.
    General-Major Oleg Vladimirovich Maydanovich, Commander, Space Command, relieved as Chief, 153rd Main Test Center for Testing and Control of Space Systems.
    Colonel Konstantin Aleksandrovich Ogiyenko, Commander, 5th Air Defense Brigade.
    General-Lieutenant Oleg Nikolayevich Ostapenko, Commander, Troops of Aerospace, relieved as Commander, Space Troops.
    General-Major Sergey Vladimirovich Popov, Commander, Air and Missile Defense Command, relieved as Chief, Air Defense, Deputy CINC of the Air Forces for Air Defense.
    There you have it. What looks like it will be a new service -- VVKO -- is born, and an old branch -- KV -- apparently will go away. More presidential paperwork on that is likely forthcoming. But today we've learned who's in VVKO's head shed, and that it's two major components will be, not surprisingly, the Space Command and Air and Missile Defense Command.

    So the VVKO is the Space and Air and Missile Defence force made up of the former PVO of the Air Force, and the Space Defence forces.

    Wonder what sort of budget the new force will control.

    This is the force that will operate Mig-31s as well as S-400 and S-500 systems.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:46 am

    Russia to build 2 plants for S-500 air defense systems

    RIA Novosti

    04:43 18/11/2011 MOSCOW, November 18 (RIA Novosti) - Russia’s Almaz-Antey concern will build two plants to manufacture formidable S-500 air defense systems, Chief of the General Staff Gen. Nikolai Makarov said.

    “We gave Almaz-Antey two years to build two plants, which will manufacture new S-500 air defense missile systems in the future,” Makarov said on Thursday.

    The S-500, a long-range air defense missile system, is expected to become the backbone of a unified aerospace defense system being formed in Russia.

    The system, being developed by Almaz-Antey, will have an extended range of up to 600 km (over 370 miles) and simultaneously engage up to 10 targets.

    The Russian military has demanded that the system must be capable of intercepting ballistic missiles and hypersonic cruise missiles and plans to order at least ten S-500 battalions for the future Russian Aerospace Defense.

    The first deliveries of S-500 are officially expected in 2015, but some Russian experts believe they are more likely to start in 2017, at the earliest.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-111118-rianovosti01.htm
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:12 pm

    With the new VVKO service I would guess the S-500 now comes under the VVKO budget rather than the VVS budget.

    This really confuses things as they are splitting the PVO and VK into the the VVKO, yet the manager at Antei-Almaz that makes all the really big SAMs said the future of ABM SAMs is air launched.

    This suggests perhaps my verbal wanderings into a PAK DA based replacement for the Mig-31 might not be too far fetched as they will need an aircraft with speed and range and a fairly signficant payload capacity for large weapons to haul around ABM AAMs... or should that be ASpMs, or Air to Space missiles.

    The VVKO will span the 4 military districts and cooperate with the Air Force and Army and Navy units in those districts... and it all starts on 1st December 2011...
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:43 pm

    Kaliningrad will receive S-400 before end of year.

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/12/01/triumph/

    Couple that with Iskander in case it gets deployed there and you have a serious spine on NATO northern flank.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:56 pm

    Of course they were always going to base them there anyway... it is the ideal forward position to counter NATO expansion.

    When Russia withdrew its troops from Eastern Europe I rather suspect they expected the US and France and UK to do the same.

    The fact that the Western Allies have stayed in Germany clearly shows the actual cold war never finished.

    They have already said they extended its range and improved its accuracy, so I rather suspect that if the US continues with its ABM shield in Europe that the next step will be a with drawl from the INF treaty and a significant further extention of Iskanders performance in terms of range and mission.

    Actually AFAIK the Slovaks were the last operational users of the SS-23 Spider SSM system which was dismantled under the INF treaty even though its range of 450-480km meant the INF treaty didn't actually apply.

    I suspect the current Iskanders have similar range now to the Spider, though are likely much more accurate.

    Of course the main problem with the Iskander... if you can call it a problem, is that the factory that makes them also makes Topols and Bulavas, so ideally they will need to expand production to at least one extra and preferably two more factories to allow production to be ramped up.

    Now that the larger of two multiple rocket launchers of the Tornado system uses the same chassis the truck maker might need to expand production as well...
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  SOC on Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:26 am

    S-400 was always going to Kaliningrad as Garry states, it is going to replace the last remaining S-200 battery operated by Russia. That has been the plan all along, regardless of the NATO ABM issue. My question is whether or not the S-300PS batteries in the area will be affected.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:15 am

    I rather suspect they will try to replace the S-200s first, but they will also try to put the new S-400 batteries where logic dictates... is ABM shield in Europe makes Kaliningrad a good place.

    North Korea getting noisy or upset means some S-400s in the Far East make sense too.

    Also we need to keep in mind that the VKO will be controlling the S-400s in Kaliningrad, whereas the VVS might want their first S-400s in different locations based on different priorities.

    I rather suspect the VKO now that it has been actually formed will start to get a higher priority of S-400 missiles and will likely get S-500s exclusively till a naval version is ready of course.
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    SOC

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  SOC on Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:44 am

    PVO (ex-PVO now?) S-300PT/PS/PM batteries are currently deployed to protect port facilities. All major fleet ports are relatively well covered, with garrison complexes and inactive prepared sites often available to provide enhanced coverage as required.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:29 pm

    http://www.almaz-antey.ru/about/press/production/856.html

    According to the Defense Ministry, the basic requirements for S-500 - Implementation of the increased opportunities to engage ballistic targets (medium range ballistic missiles, tactical and operational-tactical ballistic missile) with a height to intercept 200 км and flight speed of 7 km / sec, and the possibility of destroying warheads hypersonic cruise missiles.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:27 pm

    Oops, quite right. Both are two stage missiles.

    This would make them much easier to adapt to the S-500 role as the obvious solution would simply be to either add another booster to make it a three stage missile, or to greatly enlarge the existing boosters to further improve performance.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:18 am

    A question to any one who can answer. From the link

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Giant-Gladiator.html

    1 ) SA-12B is credited with the ability to intercept BM target corresponding to a range of 2,500 km which is denoted as maximum target interception speed of 4500 m/sec

    Can some one tell me what will be the reentry velocity or target speed of a missile with a range of 3,500 km ?

    2) Another interesting piece of information is the average velocity of both the missile , SA-12A Gladiator is credited with a average velocity of 1200 m/sec or Mach 3.5 and SA-12B Giant is credited with a average velocity of 1800 m/sec or Mach 5.3 What a Face , Is that True ? Paging SOC

    If these are its average velocity then its too damn fast to have those kind of average velocity.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:42 am

    Austin wrote:

    Can some one tell me what will be the reentry velocity or target speed of a missile with a range of 3,500 km ?

    Because of air-friction re-entry speed of any falling object no matter what its range should be the same.

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      Current date/time is Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:38 am