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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Austin
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:06 am

    An interesting interview from the designer of Moscow ABM system ( A-135 ) , he mentions that the ABM system has significant reserve and can intercept target at 2.x rage and 3x in altitude then what it is certified for

    http://www.military-informant.com/index.php/army/190-pro.html
    http://za.zubr.in.ua/2007/01/31/786/

    the creators of System A-135. General Designer of A-135, Anatoly Bassistoff stated that "the system has shown significant reserves in all respects." "High-speed interceptor missile can carry Lyuleva 53T6 defeat ballistic targets at ranges of 2.5 times larger and at altitudes of 3 times larger than we currently have certified them.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:44 am

    Seems wikileaks has shown the real intention of US ABM system

    U.S. wants to use India in missile shield against Russia, China
    Vladimir Radyuhin

    Russian daily quotes WikiLeaks cables to reveal Washington's plan

    The United States has been trying to rope in India for its plans to build a global missile defence system threatening Russia and China, the Komsomoloskaya Pravda, a popular Russian daily published from Moscow reported on Thursday.

    In a story based on the WikiLeaks releases, the report said the U.S. has not only been planning to deploy a missile shield against Russia in Europe, but had also been negotiating with countries along Russia's borders, such as Japan and India, to jointly build missile defences that would also target Russia.

    “The noose [around Russia] is tightening,” the newspaper said. “Thanks to WikiLeaks, it has become known that Washington has been simultaneously conducting talks with countries in other parts of the world for building U.S. missile defences on their territories. Those are different countries, but they form a chain around Russia.”

    A 2007 confidential cable from the U.S. embassy in New Delhi carried by the daily refuted media reports that India had abruptly turned its back on a 2005 agreement with the U.S. to cooperate on missile defences. The cable said the Indian media had misinterpreted remarks by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee after the Russia-India-China trilateral meeting in Harbin, China, on October 24, 2007. Mr. Mukherjee had dismissed as “groundless” the idea that India was going to join a U.S.-led missile defence system.
    Misconstrued

    “MEA contacts confirm this did not mean India was not interested in continuing to cooperate with the U.S. on missile defence technology and that there has been no change from the current level of bilateral missile defence cooperation,” the U.S. embassy cable said.

    The “MEA contacts” explained that Mr. Mukherjee's comments were “misconstrued” by the Indian press. When Mr. Mukherjee said that “India does not take part in such military arrangements,” the officials said, he had had in mind the U.S. plan to install a missile-detection system in Europe, which his Russian and Chinese counterparts referred to in the same press interaction.

    “MEA Director Amandeep Singh Gill [Disarmament and International Security] confirmed to PolOff on October 26 that Mr. Mukherjee's comment in Harbin cannot be interpreted as a deviation from the status quo of current U.S.-India Military Defence cooperation,” the cable said.

    The embassy recalled: “Then-Defence Minister Mukherjee and SecDef [U.S. Secretary of Defence] Rumsfeld agreed to expand collaboration relating to missile defence in the July 2005 U.S.-India Defence Framework Agreement.”

    Indo-U.S. collaboration on missile defence “has thus far been confined to technical and fact-finding discussions,” the cable said, noting that “the GOI has focused its attention increasingly on developing indigenous MD system capabilities.”
    Ring of systems

    The Russian newspaper said the U.S. had “cast a fishing net over India” to get it to join the U.S. plans for building a ring of missile defence systems encircling Russia.
    Eyeing resources?

    Washington's “plans to deploy missile defences along Russian borders — first in Europe, then in other places — may result in a situation where they will twist our hands to make us share our natural riches,” the daily said.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:33 am

    Don't really see the point of radars or missiles in India to oppose Russia.

    It might be more of a case of an attempt to get into bed with India so the US can start asserting control over Indias nukes.

    The US can't use the IAEA like they do with Iran et al to force them into corners or make them play the games the US wants everyone to play for them.

    Beware the big shiny white straight teeth... what lies behind those eyes would make a crocodile blush.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:29 am

    GarryB wrote:Don't really see the point of radars or missiles in India to oppose Russia.

    It might be more of a case of an attempt to get into bed with India so the US can start asserting control over Indias nukes.

    The US can't use the IAEA like they do with Iran et al to force them into corners or make them play the games the US wants everyone to play for them.

    Beware the big shiny white straight teeth... what lies behind those eyes would make a crocodile blush.

    I'd assume that SM-3s in India would be able to whack nuke silos that are to the east of the Urals. Perhaps Kazakhstan.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:03 pm

    I'd assume that SM-3s in India would be able to whack nuke silos that are to the east of the Urals. Perhaps Kazakhstan.

    If Russia want to attack US, than ICBMs will fly over Arctic, so I don't think missiles in India will do any help in this case. Also time is working for Russia and US will be more and more broke, so it will be wiser for US to make Russia strong ally, than enemy.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:25 pm

    I'd assume that SM-3s in India would be able to whack nuke silos that are to the east of the Urals. Perhaps Kazakhstan.

    The only large rockets in Kazakhstan are launching satellites at Baikanour... and about half of those are launching western payloads into space at the moment and in the future the non Russian payloads will only increase as the Russians complete their new space port in the East.

    Also time is working for Russia and US will be more and more broke, so
    it will be wiser for US to make Russia strong ally, than enemy.

    You'd think the US would have stepped back at the end of the cold war and said... why are we investing money into Communist China and giving the Ruskies the cold shoulder. Democracy in Russia might not meet the very high standards of the US, but at least they are trying it on for size... which is more than can be said of China.

    Even the very basic thought that the thousands of nuclear warheads the Russians have is really the only actual threat to the US compared to the few hundred China has, or the number Pakistan have etc that it would be in Americas interests to develop closer ties with Russia, and stop treating it like it was still the cold war.

    I am not suggesting treating it like a friend (like you do with communist china still), but not actually treating it like an enemy might lead to closer ties.

    The UK is Americas best buddy in the so called war on terror, yet these two countries have fought against each other. America and Germany and Japan went through difficult times yet they managed to make it civil when they felt it was in their interests to do so.

    The huge irony is that the west was best friends with the Soviet Union at a time when the Soviet Union was supposedly at its most evil... during Stalins rule during the second world war is when most people who claim the Soviet Union was evil point to purges and massacres and NKVD squads shooting more Soviets than Nazis etc etc.

    Of course Stalin was evil because he had a secret pact with Hitler and he stole land in the east after not fighting in the Pacific for most of the war and he closed the iron curtain on eastern europe...

    Of course he appeased hitler just like every other european country did because Britain and Poland did trust him and weren't interested in any other deal.

    Stalin had agreed to enter the Pacific war against Japan through an agreement with the US that didn't want to have to fight the Japs alone in the east.

    And eastern europe were happily signed over to Stalin by Britain and the US well before the war ended.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:42 am

    medo wrote:
    I'd assume that SM-3s in India would be able to whack nuke silos that are to the east of the Urals. Perhaps Kazakhstan.

    If Russia want to attack US, than ICBMs will fly over Arctic, so I don't think missiles in India will do any help in this case. Also time is working for Russia and US will be more and more broke, so it will be wiser for US to make Russia strong ally, than enemy.

    We're going broke now? Rolling Eyes

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:49 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:
    medo wrote:
    I'd assume that SM-3s in India would be able to whack nuke silos that are to the east of the Urals. Perhaps Kazakhstan.

    If Russia want to attack US, than ICBMs will fly over Arctic, so I don't think missiles in India will do any help in this case. Also time is working for Russia and US will be more and more broke, so it will be wiser for US to make Russia strong ally, than enemy.

    We're going broke now? Rolling Eyes

    Well techinally yes state budgets are in the red. Examples New York, Calfornia, Florida, Arizona etc
    Even Obama had to beg for the Repbulicans/ Tea Party to accept compromise on the national budget on Friday.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:25 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Well techinally yes state budgets are in the red. Examples New York, Calfornia, Florida, Arizona etc
    Even Obama had to beg for the Repbulicans/ Tea Party to accept compromise on the national budget on Friday.

    Sorry not the right forum , but can some one explain to me how does US manage to stay float with a very high public debt even though its more then its GDP and yet manage to keep geeting more then $600 billion dollars of defense budget ?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:28 am

    Latest AW&ST has a very detailed article on new US EW system thats getting deployed called SBRIS , it is a very capable EW system deployed by US so far.

    More details in the issue http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416165036&e=true

    Lets hope Russia is not lagging far behind.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:52 am

    Interview:Operational Strategic Command Aerospace Defense (USC EBA), Lieutenant-General Valery Ivanov

    Triumphal Brand

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:38 am

    Austin wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:Well techinally yes state budgets are in the red. Examples New York, Calfornia, Florida, Arizona etc
    Even Obama had to beg for the Repbulicans/ Tea Party to accept compromise on the national budget on Friday.

    Sorry not the right forum , but can some one explain to me how does US manage to stay float with a very high public debt even though its more then its GDP and yet manage to keep geeting more then $600 billion dollars of defense budget ?

    The majority of the U.S. public debt, despite popular belief, is owed to the U.S. population itself. China only owns about 6% of our public debt.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:51 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:The majority of the U.S. public debt, despite popular belief, is owed to the U.S. population itself. China only owns about 6% of our public debt.

    Shouldnt really matter who owns it those are just politcal statements on China , huge debts means you end up paying huge interest and affects budget for a long time to come.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:07 pm

    From multiple source I have read that they are creating a follow in to A-135 ABM called A-235 and existing A-135 system is being modernised as well

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-354.html

    some pictures of A-135 link

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:05 pm

    http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2011/0408/13407808/detail.shtml

    Almaz-Antey produced and have ready to deliver to air force units some more regiments of S-400. I wonder how is production of new Tor-M2U going.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:09 am

    SOC has a nice write up on S-300 and S-400 in his latest issue of I&A check link below

    S-300P/400

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:31 am

    Thanks... interesting read so far... except on page one where he calls the SA-6 "GUIDELINE".

    Smile

    The last page shows a land based training system for carrier operations, and based on the aircraft type I would say it was the Saki based training area in the Ukraine, but Russia was building its own facilities so it could be a new system in Russia too.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat May 14, 2011 2:32 am


    Russia to deploy 2nd S-400 air defense regiment near Moscow

    A second regiment equipped with advanced S-400 Triumf air defense systems will be put on combat duty near the Russian capital on May 15, the Defense Ministry said.

    The first S-400 regiment has been deployed in Electrostal, also near Moscow, as part of the air and missile defense network around the Russian capital.

    The S-400 (SA-21 Growler) air defense system is expected to form the cornerstone of Russia's theater air and missile defenses by 2020.

    The S-400 system can engage targets at a maximum range of up to 400 km at an altitude of 40,000-50,000 meters. The system uses a range of missiles, optimized for engaging ballistic and cruise missiles.

    An S-400 air defense regiment consists of two or three battalions equipped with four systems each. Russia is planning to arm 56 battalions with S-400 systems by 2020.

    MOSCOW, May 13 (RIA Novosti)

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110513/163998509.html

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Thu May 26, 2011 9:32 am

    A nice article that compared Aster/SAMPT , PAC-3 ERINT and 9M96E2

    link

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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:12 pm

    Very interesting.

    Using the individual drawings as posted in the mp.net thread Austin links to in another SAM thread...



    This vehicle doesn't seem to have a loading crane on it so I expect this is the launch vehicle. The missiles turned 90 degrees to make them vertical, and therefore most likely being the vertical launch naval missiles.



    This is Morfei... is the rear portion on a turntable?
    I suspect this is only the radar vehicle but Morfei is supposed to be a small missile. Could half the cabin be a couple of rows of vertical launch tubes?
    Does the large radar fold up  and sit above the roof of the cabin to get a clear field of view. This drawing is probably the most confusing.



    This is clearly one of the many radar vehicles with the large flat antenna array at the front and the radar cabins at the rear. It says Triumpator-M so it is for the S-500.




    This appears to be the Vityaz launch vehicle with presumably the missile launch bins in the front of the cabin on the rear of the truck with the manned control area at the rear (based on the position of the door). Previous models showed a smaller truck and horizontally stored missiles that needed to be erected before launched vertically.



    And finally the Vityaz radar vehicle with the large flat radar array on the rear cabin. This might also double as the unit command module with the front cabin containing communications and control equipment for the battery commander.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:49 pm



    From this image we can see in the top left that this radar vehicle supports S-300, S-400, and S-500 systems, which basically means the S-500 could be located with either S-300 or S-400 batteries.

    The bottom drawing I like because it suggests the S-500 is a large missile and I find that to be very good news. First of all it means growth potential for the future... up to an including use as a potential anti satellite weapon.
    Second it means they are likely still retaining a warhead rather than going for hit to kill.
    Third it means the higher performance rumours of 600km range anti aircraft capability and 200km altitude figures are much more likely... if not now conservative figures.

    This makes it perhaps more of a GBI type weapon instead of a SM-3 equivelent.

    Info on GBI interceptor: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/gbi.html

    The Russians have had plenty of experience with ABM interceptors they have been building and deploying them around Moscow for decades.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:25 pm

    Very true. In the next years we will see a lot of interesting new complexes.

    This become very interesting. On one hand West is slowly abandon their air defenses and cancel new projects, on the other hand Russia and China invest a lot of resources in air defense. Airplanes also became more and more expensive, so their number will also decrease. I think in next decades air defense will become very decisive, because air forces will become equally small. Ground forces with air defense will operate far more freely than ground forces without it. If air force have small number of very expensive airplanes, they don't want to risk them against very capable air defense.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Klingsor on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:54 am

    GarryB wrote:

    From this image we can see in the top left that this radar vehicle supports S-300, S-400, and S-500 systems, which basically means the S-500 could be located with either S-300 or S-400 batteries.

    The bottom drawing I like because it suggests the S-500 is a large missile and I find that to be very good news. First of all it means growth potential for the future... up to an including use as a potential anti satellite weapon.
    Second it means they are likely still retaining a warhead rather than going for hit to kill.
    Third it means the higher performance rumours of 600km range anti aircraft capability and 200km altitude figures are much more likely... if not now conservative figures.

    This makes it perhaps more of a GBI type weapon instead of a SM-3 equivelent.

    Info on GBI interceptor: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/gbi.html

    The Russians have had plenty of experience with ABM interceptors they have been building and deploying them around Moscow for decades.


    I've been doing some "truckology" based calculations from these pictures. study scratch

    The resulting estimation for Triumphator-M missile dimensions is the following:

    Max. Diameter - a little above 1,2 m

    Length - a little above 10 m

    These dimensions are very similar to those of the 9M82 missile.
    A simple explanation for this could be that Triumphator-M is in reality some sort of 9M82 derivative. Idea
    In turn this could mean that there will be a common "big missile" in PVO's S400/S500 complex
    and in the Army's S300V4 complex.
    This big missile wold be able to dialogue with any hardware of any of these systems.
    Anyway this is just a guess. I could be completely wrong... dunno


    Last edited by Klingsor on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:14 am

    I think... and I also think the Russian military agrees with me when looking at their reasons for transferring the PVO to the Space Forces branch of their military... that precision guided munitions including low flying and high and fast flying cruise missiles using stealth and/or speed to penetrate air defences will be the future risk and that while the number of manned platforms reduce and become more capable the number of unmanned platforms including in space will only increase.

    Air defence is no longer going to be good enough... you will need to be able to defend the space above as well... which is where the S-500 fits in.

    This big missile wold be able to dialogue with any hardware of any of these systems.
    Anyway this is just a guess. I could be completely wrong...

    Interesting assessment.

    To operate with S-300 and S-400 systems the wheeled chassis would be ideal, but to operate with the S-300V and later S-300V models it should also come in a tracked version as well.

    They did say it would be based on an existing S-300/S-400 design I believe, but then they also said it would be smaller, and then they said it would be a mobile version of the latest model ABM missiles used around Moscow.

    Different people give different leaks and it is hard to know which is the most accurate... a problem compounded by translation errors.

    In comparison to your figures the GBI has a range of about 5,000km and can reach altitudes of up to 2,000km. It is a three stage weapon designed to intercept ballistic targets mid-flight.

    Of course it doesn't need anywhere near that performance.

    It is a bit like some people think a Mig-31 can't intercept an SR-71 because the SR-71 is too fast. The point is that the Mig-31 like the S-500 is near the place the SR-71 or ballistic missile wants to go so neither interceptor has to catch up with their target... their target is coming to them. Regarding the ability to actually kill an SR-71 there is a reason the Mig-31 sometimes carries the R-40TD IR guided air to air missile. The IR signal from an SR-71 can be detected by a Mig-31s IRST at over 120 miles... in fact both the Mig-31 and Mig-25 can detect an SR-71 with IRST before they can detect it with radar. Because of the high speed of the SR-71 the Mig pilot just needs to raise the nose and get a lock with its missiles and fire and they have a very good chance of a kill with those big IR guided missiles.
    Against normal targets they wouldn't get a IR lock till they were very close so when they are scrambled to intercept bombers or other subsonic planes they carry 4 R-60s instead.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:58 am

    Looking at the angle this photo was taken I might think it was a photo taken from an American satellite, but while it is a very small photo it does show that the two different S-300V missiles (the large and the small missiles) are actually the same missiles with different sized boosters attached to them.
    The missiles themselves are actually quite small and are designed for very high speed.

    I actually have the feeling that the S-300 and S-400 missiles are bigger physically.

    I would think that it is therefore possible to have an S-300/S-400 based missile with a large booster stage fitted might end up looking like the S-500 because the tube has to allow for the size of the booster stage and the overall shape of the missile could be triangular for max speed.


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