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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Austin
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:47 am

    Check the S-400 trial video held few days back

    http://rian.ru/video/20110218/335746854.html

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:31 am

    You will find some info on S-500 systems capability in this interview of V Popovkin , check out the S-500 part

    http://www.rg.ru/2010/07/12/popovkin.html

    RG: In space, too, would be nice to have such a barrier. He will provide the S-500?

    Popovkin: This is the most important weapons - missiles. Because ninety percent of the pledged in the C-400 there will be - on technology, command centers, all other things. It is still, in my opinion, 25-30 years will be modern. But a new, more "vigorous" rocket do need to be able to contend not only with the tactical, operational and tactical, strategic missiles, but also hit warheads flying at a speed of 7 kilometers per second.

    The 7 km/s speed corresponding to reentry speed of ICBM missile.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:00 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/video/20110217/162652498.html

    This video shows the vertically launched Strizh, which is in actual fact a decomissioned SA-1. They made hundreds of thousands of these missiles and have been using them since the early 1970s as target missiles simply because they are available in enormous numbers. I have read that they had used over 13,000 SA-1 missiles as targets up to about the early 1990s so they have probably used a lot more since then.

    Regarding the Popovkin comment it sounds like he is saying that the S-400 "system" is already good enough to intercept anything... it is the missiles that prevent the interception of 7km/s targets.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  medo on Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:21 pm

    In my opinion S-500 will not be much different from outside from S-400 and have some components and missiles from S-400 as S-400 have from S-300. The main difference will be in additional radars and missiles. I don't know how old are Gorgoyle and Gazelle ABM missiles, but for sure S-500 will have to replace them in ABM defense. In configuration like S-400, S-500 will be mobile and at the same time it could engage usual flying targets, ICBM warheads and satellites in lower orbits, because the unit will have all complete of radars and CPs and all type of missiles on its launchers, crews will only select which target they will engage with which missile.



    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/02/18/rockets/

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/02/18/s300/

    Another polk of S-400 will be equipped in Russian Far East, S-300 "Favorit" from units around Moscow, which got S-400, will be based around Sankt-Petersburg.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Regarding the Popovkin comment it sounds like he is saying that the S-400 "system" is already good enough to intercept anything... it is the missiles that prevent the interception of 7km/s targets.

    Well he is responding to question on why S-500 is needed , he says 90 % of technology for Command center etc will be common , S-500 will introduce two key new technology one is a brand new AESA Radar called MARS with a range of 1500-3000 km and a new interceptor missile , while it will be tightly integrated with C&C system developed for S-400.

    In a way S-500 will break the iterative development based on incremental update that S-300 and its advanced derivative and S-400 has introduced.

    I would broadly summarise the current/future Russian SAM/ABM as follows based on what I have been reading and following closely.

    S-300PMU2/3 --> mobile anti-Aerodynamic/anti-cruise/ anti-SRBM/MRBM ( for missile corresponding to a range of max 1000 - 1200 km )
    Anteny-2500/Advanced A-2500 ---->mobile battlefield/area anti-Aerodynamic/anti-cruise/ anti-MRBM/IRBM ( for missile corresponding to a range of max 1500 - 2500 km )
    S-400 Triumf/Triumftor-M ----->mobile area anti-Aerodynamic/anti-hypersonic cruise missile / anti-advanced IRBM ( for missile corresponding to a max range 2500 - 3500 km )
    S-500 -----> mobile area anti-ICBM/Anti-Satellite with missile corresponding to the entire envelop ICBM which for any icbm is 7/7.1 km/sec)

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Andy_Wiz on Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:58 pm

    Ok i will try to coin in my two cents.

    First of all they sacked the chairman of A-A last month and i think for a reason...

    Second of all IronsightSniper and Austin are right that S-500 has exoatmospheric capability as its High tier system. Somebody totally made up that 50km max altitude figure Twisted Evil But 2014 is not that far away why so much rush, is it going to be another empty promise?

    The history with 9m96 is really strange. Looks like the South Korean derivative (forgot the name) is succesfully being fielded.

    According to my info it may require another 2 to 3 years to become operational.

    Unfortunately it all blends with overall A-A situation(especially its outdated production facilities)makes you wonder how Koreans could put it into service before the Russian ?

    Sadly the 40N6(Long Hand) status may also suffer from these shortcomings...

    There were missile designations 9m98, 9m99 in reports for S-400 but they were never commented upon, and its existence wasn't confirmed.


    Meanwhile A-A is doing a modernisation of A-135 Moscow ABM replacing everything with modern digital coms,computers,revamped Don-2N radar etc.. Missiles stay the same. The new build(upgraded) short range 53t6 abm's along with completely new ABm's are planned.. I think they have a contract up to 2015 to develop some of this stuff... The codename of the upgraded system is "Samolet-M"

    There is a good summary about it on militaryrussia.ru website.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:55 am

    In my opinion S-500 will not be much different from outside from S-400
    and have some components and missiles from S-400 as S-400 have from
    S-300. The main difference will be in additional radars and missiles.

    If they are going to base the S-500 on a missile then I would prefer it to be based on the large missile of the S-300V type that was two stage and with the capability of engaging targets both inside and outside the atmosphere.

    I want something that is big enough to reach low earth orbit satellites... Twisted Evil

    Such a mobile system would be very useful and a naval version would also be useful too.

    I don't know how old are Gorgoyle and Gazelle ABM missiles, but for sure S-500 will have to replace them in ABM defense.

    AFAIK they are constantly maintained and tested most years... and according to Andy below they are getting a new upgrade.

    one is a brand new AESA Radar called MARS with a range of 1500-3000 km and a new interceptor missile

    WOW Shocked ... COOL Cool

    I would broadly summarise the current/future Russian SAM/ABM as follows based on what I have been reading and following closely.... {snip}

    Nice... now all they have to do is get production of S-400 above one system every 2-3 years and start S-500 production.

    I suspect that AESA radar will require a lot of technical skill and TR module production capacity... hope they can get together with makers of AESA radars in aircraft and ships etc to pool their resources.

    First of all they sacked the chairman of A-A last month and i think for a reason...

    Would that reason be the slow production rate? Or the money being thrown at them ending in the wrong pockets?
    Is there money being thrown at them?

    But 2014 is not that far away why so much rush, is it going to be another empty promise?

    Time frames often seem rather optimistic for new weapons. Most weapon systems will remain in service for decades so getting it right at the start doesn't seem to be a big deal anymore... I blame software companies that release software before it is fully tested and just use patches and updates to fix the problems as the customers find them... I am looking at you Microsoft...

    Unfortunately it all blends with overall A-A situation(especially its
    outdated production facilities)makes you wonder how Koreans could put it
    into service before the Russian ?

    The South Korean program was probably fully funded and included new production facilities for the systems.
    Money clearly needs to be spent on production facilities in Russia... not just better but also more.
    The SKs also have a mature and capable electronics industry ready to make components and deliver them.

    Meanwhile A-A is doing a modernisation of A-135 Moscow ABM replacing
    everything with modern digital coms,computers,revamped Don-2N radar
    etc.. Missiles stay the same.

    I suspect the electronics and comms and computers were probably the limiting feature of the system and a full upgrade will likely make the missiles much more capable.

    There has been talk that 2011-2013 will be the period when stuff starts entering service in numbers so I hope that is true.

    Sadly the 40N6(Long Hand) status may also suffer from these shortcomings...

    Or it could be like the Kh-101/102 where once it was tested they stopped mentioning it except with oblique references to 5,000km range cruise missiles for armament on new Subs and Ships... I doubt they will export the S-400 system very soon, and I think even when they do there will be a lot of components not for export then either that likely include the 40N6 missile.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:40 pm

    Military Parade, No. 1, 2011

    TRIUMPH FROM MOSCOW TO RUSSIAN FAR EAST

    Author: Alexander Lukashov

    Alexander Lukashov, Military Parade editor

    Readers of the Military Parade magazine have been familiar with the S-400 Triumph surface-to-air missile (SAM) system since last century. Military Parade wrote about factory tests of the S-400 SAM system at the Kapustin Yar range field as far back as February 1999. Much time has passed since then. The Triumph SAM system was fielded under a governmental decree in April 2007, the first mass-produced system was manufactured and put on combat duty outside a town of Elektrostal, Moscow Region, on August 6, 2007.

    In February 2011 the Kapustin Yar range field hosted launches of another regiment of S-400 Triumph SAM systems. The main feature of the exercise consisted in the fact that the Almaz-Antey Design Bureau, manufacturer of the S-400 system, had delivered two whole battalions, rather than separate SAM systems to its customer, the Operational-Strategic Aerospace Defence Command. It is crucial for practicing regiment-size teamwork, since successful engagement of a target is the result of joint efforts of the entire combat crew.

    A SAM regiment, equipped with new S-400 SAM systems, will be put on combat duty in Dmitrov this March, thus, reinforcing Moscow's air defence. It will be the second regiment, armed with S-400s, to be deployed outside Moscow. Commander of the Operational-Strategic Aerospace Defence Command Lieutenant General Valery Ivanov pointed out: "It takes at least three to four regiments, equipped with S-400 SAM systems, to ensure effective air defence of Moscow. Such a capability will be available in 2016-2020."

    It is worth mentioning that the S-400 Triumph SAM system, developed and produced by the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Consortium, is designed for highly efficient defence of crucial political, administrative, economic, and military installations against air attacks, as well as strategic, cruise, theatre ballistic, and medium-range ballistic missile strikes in adverse combat and electronic countermea-sures (ECM) environments.

    The system is based on cutting-edge scientific achievements, advanced components, and state-of-the-art technologies. All combat functions, including target detection, tracking, distribution among SAM systems, lock-on, tracking, identification; missile type selection; launch preparations; missile launch, lock-on, and guidance; and damage assessment, are automated. The system is capable of simultaneously tracking up to 300 targets, guiding up to 72 missiles, and engaging up to 36 targets.

    The S-400 can destroy aerodynamic targets at a range of up to 400 km, and at a height of up to 60 km it is capable of killing cruise missiles, tactical and strategic aircraft (including stealth ones), and ballistic missiles flying at a speed of up to 4.8 km/sec. The minimum/maximum flight altitude of an engaged aerodynamic target equals 0.01/27 km. Such targets can be detected at a range of up to 600 km.

    As compared with previous-generation SAM systems, the Triumph boasts significantly greater combat capabilities and is more than twice as effective. It is the only system, capable of launching more than four types of missiles, featuring different launch weights and ranges, therefore, establishing layered air defence.

    All S-400 assets are based on wheeled cross-country chassis and can be transported by railway, sea, and air.

    According to many experts, the S-400 is the world's best SAM system. The Triumph is superior to the top-notch Western US-made Patriot missile system in many ways. For instance, the Russian system can engage low-level targets at an altitude of 10 m plus, while the US one - at an altitude of 60 m and higher. On the modern battlefield, stakes in breaching air defences are placed on low-level attacks.

    Vertically launched missiles enable the S-400 to engage incoming targets, approaching from any direction, without having to turn its launchers. The Patriot missile system, which, on the other hand, launches its missile at a pre-set angle, is forced to either turn its launchers or deploy them on missile-dangerous approaches in advance, which inevitably affects its firepower potential.

    The deployment time from the travelling position into the combat one is also a crucial factor. While it takes the Russian system less than five minutes to deploy, the US SAM system needs about half an hour.

    The deployment geography of the cutting-edge system expands - the Aerospace Defence Command intends to field Triumph SAM systems with a SAM regiment, based in the Russian Far East (it will be the third regiment equipped with S-400s). The top-notch SAM system will replace obsolete pieces of materiel. S-400 surface-to-air missile systems, deployed in the Russian Far East, will facilitate a more efficient defence of Pacific Fleet installations, including nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) bases. This decision is not related to the plans to build up forces in the Kuril Islands or the threat, posed by the North Korean nuclear programme. Deployment of S-400s systems in the Russian Far East is just one of the steps, aimed at boosting capabilities of the regional air and missile defence.

    S-400 SAM systems are expected to become the basis for a system, capable of ensuring the required level of securing in the course of the Olympic Games in Sochi in 2014.

    Russian arms designers continue making headway. Development of the advanced S-500 SAM system, announced in 2009, is under way. At the present time it is only known that the new-generation system will be smaller and more manoeuvrable than the Triumph, and will be fitted with a state-of-the-art X-band phased array radar. Among other things, the new system is expected to perform space defence missions at an altitude of 40 to 50 km. Its development is planned to be completed in 2013, while in 2014 mass-produced S-500 systems are expected to start entering the inventory. Given the trend to deploy weapon systems in space, it will be of paramount importance to Russia's defence capacity.

    Re-equipment of the Russian Armed Forces with S-400 SAM systems and development of the S-500 system are the response to Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's order that a new combat arm, the Aerospace Defence Forces, be established. In this light air and missile defence systems are to be integrated and put under a single Strategic Command by 1 December, 2011. A combination of the S-400 and the S-500 is a serious factor in building a joint European missile defence system.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Andy_Wiz on Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:08 am

    Ok, don't know where to put it since this is most connected to VKO (Aero Space Defence)

    This is pretty interesting location - http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2011/04/02/the-shield-of-moscow/

    This is a A-35M ABM base also a developmental facility for current A-135 system, one missile that was tested here later was abandoned for A-135...

    All valuable and secret equipment was of course rigged out before the location became open.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:36 am

    As per its designer the new missile of S-400 can target in near space.


    C-400 can destroy targets in near space, the designers promise

    Sofrino (Moscow Region), April 8 - RIA Novosti. anti-aircraft missile system S-400 will soon engage targets in near space, told reporters Friday in Sofrino deputy director of the Design Bureau "Almaz-Antey" Yuri Soloviev.

    "In the near future will be taken into service a new long-range missile for the S-400, which will operate in near space" - said Solovyov.

    According to him, now carried the state tests new long-range missiles."These tests are now successful," - he said.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:57 am

    I think there is a bit of assumption there.
    The designer didn't say the missile can engage targets in near space, he said they will operate in near space.

    This is the long range 400km missile... just getting out a map myself that means an S-400 battery operating outside my house could hit targets covering 3/4ths of the entire South Island of New Zealand. In fact optimally basing the missile near Waimate a single battery could engage targets from the bottom of Stewart Island up to about Westport. Put another system in Fielding and one near Auckland and all of New Zealand would be covered by three batteries... and we have more land area than say the UK.

    I rather suspect that with that sort of range the missile spends most of its time just falling on a ballistic path after being propelled in the general direction.
    The question is can it engage targets at very high altitudes at shorter ranges.

    Certainly the S-500 is supposed to.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:04 pm

    I think what he means by operate is "engage" , the translation cannot do justice.

    Near Space would be any thing less than 100 km , so we need to see what is the max effective altitude the 40N6 big missile can engage , Interesting times ahead.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:02 pm

    Wiki describes near space as being between 20km and 100km, but then that would mean that a Mig-25M can fly well into near space with its altitude record of 37,650m or 123,523ft.

    I have read about flights in Mig-25s where the sky gets dark and you can see the curvature of the Earth.

    It will be interesting to see official figures for max effective ceiling against various targets.

    It is of course likely that different targets can be engaged at different altitudes... the steep trajectories of ballistic targets for example limits the horizontal range of the S-300V system to 40km for ballistic targets.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:21 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110408/163433985.html


    Russia to develop S-500 air defense system by 2016 - designer


    Russia's Almaz-Antei design bureau is planning to complete the
    development of the advanced S-500 air defense system by 2015-2016, the
    company's deputy general director Yury Solovyev said Friday.
    The S-500, a long-range missile system, is expected to become the
    backbone of a unified aerospace defense system being formed in Russia.
    "Our design bureau is working to complete the development of the S-500 system by 2015-2016," Solovyev said.
    He said the designers were facing a number of problems, including a lack of reliable and efficient electronic components.
    "But we will be able to resolve them," the official said.
    The S-500 is expected to have an extended range of up to 600 km (over 370 miles) and simultaneously engage up to 10 targets.
    Russia's Defense Ministry has demanded that the system must be
    capable of intercepting ballistic missiles and hypersonic cruise
    missiles.
    SOFRINO (Moscow region), April 8 (RIA Novosti)
    Over 600km range...Hopefully they will start investing in electronics... it is a very important area that effects so many other high tech products.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:30 pm

    A bit older but interesting news on their official website
    link

    Moscow. 27 The regiment, consisting of two battalions of antiaircraft missile system (ZRS) C-400 will be adopted for the Air Forces of Russia in 2005, told Interfax-AVN, Acting Chief of the Air Force, Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn.

    "In accordance with the state defense order, this year's planned adoption of the adopted one regiment-400. It will be located in the Moscow region", - said A. Nogovitsyn.

    "Polk the first pilot, in his battle of the two divisions," - he said.

    "C-400 is able to effectively destroy both existing, and to create ballistic missiles, small and medium-range missiles that will threaten the territory of the Russian Federation", - the general said, noting that the WLU "works great and ballistic targets, and an aerodynamic" .

    According to A. Nogovitsyn, developed by Concern PVO Almaz-Antey S-400 - "a completely new system, when creating which has been applied a new approach - the principle of modularity. He explained that having a basic version of 4 types of missiles, C-400 has great potential for further modernization. In particular, the launcher of the new WLU unified under the standard of existing missiles old park, which are in service with S-300 systems."In the same volume and the overall weight and dimensions data we" fit in "all subsequent modules used rockets", - emphasized A. Nogovitsyn.

    Due to the high degree of unification of the park one missile system S-400 will increase to six. S-400 missiles can destroy targets in near space - at altitudes up to 185 km, at a distance of 400-450 km, the general said, noting that WLU is capable to work on maritime and ground targets. "It is a new complex, noise-free, with high accuracy characteristics, including the possibility of targeting the aviation component," - he stressed.


    "So, AAMS is a unified, no analogues in the world", - A. Nogovitsyn.

    Now there are gosipytaniya system. With a full set of S-400 missiles will be adopted, tentatively, by 2008," - said A. Nogovitsyn.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:46 pm

    185km altitude would be impressive.

    That is even better than THAADs performance.

    The problem I have with that of course is that if it can achieve such performance then there would be little need for S-500.

    Of course I suppose S-500 would be designed to deal with faster targets and might even have some capability against LEO satellites...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem I have with that of course is that if it can achieve such performance then there would be little need for S-500.

    Of course I suppose S-500 would be designed to deal with faster targets and might even have some capability against LEO satellites...

    S-400 has a limitation of being able to intercept a target corresponding to a speed of 4.8 km/sec which roughly corresponds to BM with a range of 3,500 km and ofcourse any other targets like cruise missile or Boost Glide Vehical that travels below that speed.

    S-500 will be capable of intercepting a target corresponding to a speed of 7.2 km/sec or a ICBM target ,the S-500 missile has to be more energetic ,have equal or higher altitude of interception or a different warhead most likely a kill vehical and ofcourse an AESA which can provide long rage tracking and firecontrol function.

    So S-500 and S-400 are designed to do different task.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:51 pm

    The US and Israel are going to Sht themselves every time the Russian export agency mentions new contracts for this system.

    It is optimised for very low flying to very high flying aerodynamic targets and sub strategic ballistic targets and with S-500 missiles and sensors/command modules attached targets outside the atmosphere and strategic ballistic targets too.

    Imagine a Kirov vessel with 500 launch bins for these.... Twisted Evil and another 500 launch bins for Kh-101 and Kh-102 and Brahmos and Club....

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:57 pm

    I dont think S-400 will be exported soon and very doubtful the BIG Missile will be exported any sooner not atleast in a decade since they have huge potential internal order from Russian armed forces.

    The US and Israel crib about even the older system like S-300 getting exported , Israel goes one step further , it would even crib if russia were to export bananas to its hostile country and both would call it "highly destabalising" Laughing


    Last edited by Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:01 pm

    In my recent visit to Aero India in Feb at Almaz-Antey stall , the S-400 system information was published at missile with 200 km range and any information other then what was published was refuted by Almaz-Antey folks and in their view the 40N6 Missile was just my imagination :-)

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:29 am

    GarryB wrote:The US and Israel are going to Sht themselves every time the Russian export agency mentions new contracts for this system.

    It is optimised for very low flying to very high flying aerodynamic targets and sub strategic ballistic targets and with S-500 missiles and sensors/command modules attached targets outside the atmosphere and strategic ballistic targets too.

    Imagine a Kirov vessel with 500 launch bins for these.... Twisted Evil and another 500 launch bins for Kh-101 and Kh-102 and Brahmos and Club....

    Too bad it's at least 5 years off from any sort of production :v

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:13 am

    I dont think S-400 will be exported soon and very doubtful the BIG
    Missile will be exported any sooner not atleast in a decade since they
    have huge potential internal order from Russian armed forces.

    I would expect the most likely first export customer will be India if they want it.

    Of course the S-400 system could simply be a subset of the radar vehicles plus the two small missiles (120km and 40km range), with other missile options being added later.

    With a range of 600km the S-500 bypasses the MTRF treaty because it is not designed to hit ground targets.

    Too bad it's at least 5 years off from any sort of production :v

    Assuming it has the performance specs released for it and can match the heights suggested for the large S-400 missile... ie 600km+ range and 185km altitude, and an ability to defeat mach 7+ targets... it is basically a mobile ABM system with most likely some sort of naval counterpart too.

    Will be interesting to hear the US squeal... there are no limitations at all on ABM systems.

    It wouldn't take much to take a leaf out of the USN book and add a stage and produce something like SM-3, there are significant advantages to using multiple stages in increasing performance.

    Perhaps there will be an S-500A and a S-500B, with one an ABM system and the other an anti intel satellite system for taking on satellites in non circular orbits.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:06 am

    Found SOC comment on this subject thought will be interesting to share

    Regarding the S-400, if the 40N6 is big enough, 185 km in altitude isn't out of the question. Your footprint for a TBM intercept at that altitude is not going to be 400 km in range, though, there is a tradeoff for using the booster to get you higher.

    Ultimately, 185km is irrelevant to anything other than a ballistic missile. Military-relevant satellites like GPS and ISR sats use high-LEO to MEO orbits up to around 20,000 km. "Near-space" comes off more as a marketing term than anything else.

    Given that the 48N6 was already tested at a range of 400km, the 40N6 may well be used not for long range but for very high altitude. Which will, of course, be rendered irrelevant when the dedicated ABM/ASAT S-500 is fielded.

    Who says it has to? A typical TBM target isn't maneuvering. You could develop a MaRV as a countermeasure, but MaRVs on platforms that small typically use maneuver capability for accuracy not evasion. So, if the TBM target isn't deviating from its purely ballistic flightpath, all you need is tracking radars with good resolution and a missile that can accurately maintain its flightpath, i.e. not wobble or anything. Then it's a case of point and shoot. They don't need to bother with HTK, they've done a good deal of work on directional warheads for the anti-missile role. That'll allow you to use the same 40N6 round for long-range or high-altitude intercepts.

    Although, if and when it appears, I assume it might be used more for high altitude. The 48N6 trials in the 80's proved that they could modify the trajectory of a stock missile and get it out to 400 kilometers with a few minor airframe and software changes. That's why I wouldn't be suprised if the S-400's 48N6DM already has the ability to kill something at 400 km. Now, only an idiot is firing at something maneuverable (fighter-type target) beyond 250 km or so, so it's only really useful against large, cooperative targets like an ISR platform. But, if it has the ability to reach 400 km, that increases the engagement range for a maneuverable, non-cooperative target significantly over the older 48N6D. The 48N6D probably could hit something like that at around 120-150 km of it's max 200 km range, the 48N6DM with a 400 km reach could likely hit it at around 250 km, which is the range they give for the system.

    People often assume that "oh, the range is 400 km, it can kill anything at that range," and they'd be making fools of themselves. Physics doesn't work that way. Missiles operate using physics, not fanboyisms or propaganda.

    To comment on some other things given that the software doesn't allow multiple quotes (or I'm not doing it right, which is entirely possible):

    -The 9M96/9M96D are designed as HTK first, proximity fused warhead second. The motors are for added maneuvering near endgame. Notice that the canards are also hinged.

    -40N6 by itself isn't odd, but given the 48N6's capability to hit 400 km, I wouldn't be shocked if someone mistyped 48N6! Evidence points to the 40N6 being a new missile though, but still...you have to wonder.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:16 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I dont think S-400 will be exported soon and very doubtful the BIG
    Missile will be exported any sooner not atleast in a decade since they
    have huge potential internal order from Russian armed forces.

    I would expect the most likely first export customer will be India if they want it.

    Of course the S-400 system could simply be a subset of the radar vehicles plus the two small missiles (120km and 40km range), with other missile options being added later.

    With a range of 600km the S-500 bypasses the MTRF treaty because it is not designed to hit ground targets.

    Too bad it's at least 5 years off from any sort of production :v

    Assuming it has the performance specs released for it and can match the heights suggested for the large S-400 missile... ie 600km+ range and 185km altitude, and an ability to defeat mach 7+ targets... it is basically a mobile ABM system with most likely some sort of naval counterpart too.

    Will be interesting to hear the US squeal... there are no limitations at all on ABM systems.

    It wouldn't take much to take a leaf out of the USN book and add a stage and produce something like SM-3, there are significant advantages to using multiple stages in increasing performance.

    Perhaps there will be an S-500A and a S-500B, with one an ABM system and the other an anti intel satellite system for taking on satellites in non circular orbits.

    I really doubt the Russians are even on the verge of approaching viable ground based ASAT weaponry, hell, the Chinese are farther ahead than they are.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:11 am

    I really doubt the Russians are even on the verge of approaching viable
    ground based ASAT weaponry, hell, the Chinese are farther ahead than
    they are.

    Hahahahahahahaha... that is incredibly funny... or are you being serious?

    Anyone who has the technology and capability to launch a satellite can destroy a satellite.

    Simply launching an Energyia rocket into low earth orbit with its 100 ton payload a big plastic bag of sand in the opposite orbit of the target.

    Every 45 minutes the expanding cloud of sand will become more and more likely to impact the satellite in question... at double orbital speed... more than 14km/s even a single grain of sand will convert a fully functioning satellite into scrap metal... getting hit by thousands of grains will make it unrecognisable.

    The Soviets had 23mm cannons designed to fire in space, and also developed a small missile designed for protecting Soviet satellites from US interference. The US Space shuttle was the ideal platform to fly in and capture a Soviet satellite and bring it back down to earth for study. To prevent that all sorts of weapons were designed to protect them... and if a Soviet satellite can shoot at a space shuttle it can shoot at other targets nearby... things at the same height are all moving at the same speed so a gram of cold gas propellent would be enough to move a missile thousands of kms (though not very rapidly) to hit a target. Objects higher up will be faster and lower down will be slower.
    Any rocket used to launch a satellite could be used to destroy one.
    The Russians use ICBMs near retirement to put satellites in orbit commercially... the payload could just as easily be nails or small metal cubes.

    Regarding the S-400, if the 40N6 is big enough, 185 km in altitude isn't
    out of the question. Your footprint for a TBM intercept at that
    altitude is not going to be 400 km in range, though, there is a tradeoff
    for using the booster to get you higher.

    It would be unlikely to have a targeting ceiling and a max horizontal range in one shot as manouvering to hit a target at height will reduce energy for range.
    It would likely be one or the other.
    The earlier 48N6 had a range of 400km but it flew a calculated lofted trajectory with the control surfaces locked and basically zoom dived on the target from a very steep trajectory.
    A target like AWACs has little look directly up capability and would likely not even see it coming, and falling from hundreds of kms means it will be falling very fast.

    Ultimately, 185km is irrelevant to anything other than a ballistic
    missile. Military-relevant satellites like GPS and ISR sats use high-LEO
    to MEO orbits up to around 20,000 km. "Near-space" comes off more as a
    marketing term than anything else.

    Most incoming warheads will have ablative shields to protect them from the heat of re-entering the atmosphere... hitting them at 185kms altitude will expose the internal components to reentry temperatures and forces that will likely be more effective in completely destroying the target.
    Of course radioactive material will be spread over a much wider area because of the height of the interception, but if you are lucky high altitude wind streams might spread it so thin as to be not needing a clean up, or not making a clean up viable.
    Of course the increase in radiation is far preferable to a detonation.

    Given that the 48N6 was already tested at a range of 400km, the 40N6 may
    well be used not for long range but for very high altitude. Which will,
    of course, be rendered irrelevant when the dedicated ABM/ASAT S-500 is
    fielded.

    I have said as much, but there will likely be a use for high altitude interception with a system that is not a strategic ABM system (as opposed to a theatre ABM like S-300V, S-300P, S-400 et al).
    In other words there will be places in Russia and also likely eventual client states that need a theatre ABM with a high altitude engagement capability but that does not need a weapon as powerful as S-500.

    For instance placing S-500 in Abkhazia might step on a few toes, whereas the 120km and 40km range missiles of S-400 might be more than appropriate.

    They don't need to bother with HTK, they've done a good deal of work on directional warheads for the anti-missile role.

    Indeed... at the speeds involved a claymore burst of heavy fragments at enormous speeds projected into the path of the target is more than enough to kill it reliably, plus it means that against a range of targets it will be effective too. For instance high altitude balloons hit by a HTK warhead at 200,000ft will receive a hole less than a metre across straight through it that might penetrate three or four internal bags of lifting gas which will cause the airship to descend a little.
    Having a claymore shower of fragments travelling at enormous speeds will shred a large area and do far more damage. An airship is obviously a worst case scenario.

    Now, only an idiot is firing at something maneuverable (fighter-type
    target) beyond 250 km or so, so it's only really useful against large,
    cooperative targets like an ISR platform.

    The main problem would be detecting fighter sized targets at that range, but a dual IR sensor in the missile means the 400km range steep diving attack is perfectly possible... a steeply diving hypersonic missile with passive guidance could be very deadly to even the most nimble fighter... especially with a 150kg warhead with directional fragmentation.
    The MON-50 only weighs 2 kgs and is effective at killing people at 50-70m. The MON-200 weighs about 25kgs and can kill at 200m. Imagine a 150kg directional mine... that is already travelling at about mach 6 so you don't need a lot of HE... just a dispersal charge to send the fragments in the right direction.

    -The 9M96/9M96D are designed as HTK first, proximity fused warhead
    second. The motors are for added maneuvering near endgame. Notice that
    the canards are also hinged.

    After the rocket fuel is burned the side thruster rockets on the 9M96 and 9M96D are at the centre of gravity for the missile so they don't direct the nose of the missile to steer it on a new corrected heading towards the target... they blast the entire missile sideways to jump from its current path a few metres in any direction to get the missile closer to the targets path and the directional warhead does the rest if it doesn't hit it directly.
    The missile will be slowly spinning in flight so several rockets could be fired at the same angle as the rocket turned to increase the distance sideways the missile jumps into the path of the target.

    -40N6 by itself isn't odd, but given the 48N6's capability to hit 400
    km, I wouldn't be shocked if someone mistyped 48N6! Evidence points to
    the 40N6 being a new missile though, but still...you have to wonder.

    They have talked about a new 400km range missile long enough to work out it is not the tests performed on the 48N6 years ago with locked control surfaces and lofted trajectories.

    I really doubt the Russians are even on the verge of approaching viable
    ground based ASAT weaponry, hell, the Chinese are farther ahead than
    they are.

    Up until recently they were bound by the ABM treaty not to play with such technologies. China had no such restriction. I am sure in terms of practical systems the Russians will catch up rapidly enough.
    They are still working on a satellite launcher based on the Mig-31 which could very easily be modified for the opposite purpose.

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