Flagship Victory wrote:mack8 wrote:Hey there Flagship Victory, i understand that you don't like Putin, you have made it clear more than once, but you keep repeating the same mantra ad nauseaum and you are continually posting the same thing, it's wearing a bit thin now, not to mention you have thrown accusations of trolling against another member that appear unfounded. Fine, you don't like Putin, you don't like the current russian government policy (there are things i do not agree as well, whether rightly or wrongly remains to be seen though), you made it clear, now let's move on, there are a lot of important events, news and posts from other members about the situation in Ukraine that risk being flooded by your posts about Putin. If you are well intended, acting accordingly would be appreciated. If not then i and perhaps others will consider the next step. No disrespect.
I got nothing against Putin. He is what is he, president of Russia, elected by fair election, unlike that Poro guy who took power from Maidan coup. To me at least, Putin is an extremely stubborn guy, asking for Donbas to be part of Ukraine when the reality is that is not in the least bit possible. Putin could have drafted a UN resolution on Crimea in March 2014 before the US took the initiative to do so. Quite possibly, Putin is the most timid, the most stubborn man in the whole wide world. He has so many tools at his disposal. He never uses any of those tools to the benefit of Russia. Word of advice, elect Mironov in 2018. This guy is good, REAL good.
When you talk about Putin say this ,Russia told this ,You don't understand something that is called Public Relations . Putin understand Ukraine have no chance to survive and stay united onces the nation default and everyone lose their jobs.. The whole MINSK agreements..
signed by Putin.. But also supported by Donetsk and Lugansk Is a dam Public relations game.. What Minsk do is the following.. it tell Poroshenko..
[i] " Alright "we give up".. we agree that Donetsk and Lugansk should remain part of Ukraine..
so here are this steps to allow Kiev take control of eastern Ukraine without firing a single shot.
all kiev needs to do.. is give the special status , that will respect their language and give then
autonomy to control its own security and elect their own leaders.. [/u] and then when Kiev recognize eastern ukraine special autonomy ,and see the leadership as legitimate.. then the separatist will give control of the borders and officially the war will end..
So effectively MINSK-2 agreement what it does is put the ball on the side of Kiev..
to proof that they are the problem.. that they do not negotiate ,when rebels agreed to remain part of Ukraine. It also give the European Union a clear irrefutable view ,that Russia is not interested in annexing eastern ukraine and only want people to stop being killed there and their rights respected...
So if Kiev does give any special status to the Rebels and continue bombing their cities , after
Russia manage to convince them to remain part of kiev Then Europe will have a powerful
motive ,to support the Independence of eastern ukraine..because Kiev refuse to give any autonomy to them..and only wants to kill them..
What Putin signed in minsk-2 is Brilliant.. is a baby steps independence for the Rebels.. done slowly..and best of all with the support of Europe.. because you know what? eastern Ukraine will have no chance to become a working country under sanctions of Europe and depending 100% on Russia.. If kiev give strong autonomy to the Rebels.. then they will have no more justification to continue fighting .. The REbels will continue with their Weapons.. and control of their zones and the only new thing is that their borders will be controlled by Ukraine.. but that in case of any war.. the Rebels could easily take them again.
What you don't see is that... Kiev will never regain total control of eastern ukraine..
The MINSK-2 agreement give Kiev a symbolical victory ,good enough to keep POroshenko in Power and not be overthrow by the Ultra Nationals.. since after all he managed to take control
of all Ukraine main land borders.. and "forced the rebels to desist" from their indepence.
But in reality what Minsk-2 do.. is a Delayed Independence with the Blessings of Europe and Russia and International Community.. giving the opportunity to kiev "to not lose the territory"
as long kiev end their Fascism and recognize ethnic Russians as equals.. to ukrainians.
@flagship.. you are only interested in the future of Donetsk and Lugansk..
Putin is interested in the future of all Ukraine.. if it will be a Rusophobic nation that will threaten
their nation security forever.. or if they will be a friendly or neutral one.. Pressuring Ukraine to return to democracy and stop backing their Nazis ultra nationals and calling terrorist any Russian.. will be the only way for peace to return again in all Ukraine..
Because if Putin goes and recognize the Independence of Donetsk and lugansk.. it will not have the support of Europe and Russia economy will have to carry them.. because they will be under international sanctions and blockade its economy.
Minsk-2 is a win /win for the Rebels.and Russia. and a Lose /Lose for USA.. because it means
Independence delayed and with the support of Europe..if Kiev refuse to give them autonomy..
The best part is that it allows Kiev to choose to win or to lose.. if they give Rebels full autonomy ,Ukraine wins. but also Russia..and the war ends because no longer they will have excuse to bomb them..
So effectively in real practice.. no matter how Donetsk or Lugansk is called ..and independent
country or an Autonomy, or Special territory.. the fact is ,that in real practice.. they will not lose
control of their territory ,because the Mink-2 agreement does not ask for Rebels to drop their weapons.. only to remove it from the separation line between Ukraine and separatist zones. and im still surprised how poroshenko signed it.. and US had to back it to through UN ,or else will have been seen as part of the problem...
Indeed MInsk-2 is a checkmate move if this was a chess game..
So ukraine is doomed if do not comply with minsk it will bleed its nation economy ,because the war will not end.. and risk losing more cities..with a major revolution ,that will sooner or later kick kiev from power.. and if Ukraine give strong autonomy to Donetsk and Lugansk.. then the war ends and Russia will be one step closer to recovering good relations with all Ukraine..
Honestly kiev have no choice but to do the MINSK-2 or they will disband the nation..because no country in the world can survive with a very long civil war in a bankrupt nation. There is also the possibility.. OF europe dividing and distancing from Americans if they continue provoking a war against Russia and sabotaging the cease of fire ,encouraging ukraine to fight with their weapons.
An analogy of minsk could be a man wanting to kill his wife because she wants to split (gain freedom and independence like Donetsk). so what she do? she makes a deal ,where she agree to remain married with him.. but living in a separate house..and with freedom for her to go and party with anyone she wants.. Essentially is the same thing.. Special Status and strong Autonomy give something very close to an Independence.. with the bonus ,that the entire Government in kiev is assured will not last long if they continue its self isolation from the world
and hostile stance against Russia.
So all said ,thanks to Evil Putin.. the Rebels will get their Full Independence.. sooner or later..
it will happen.. Minsk-2 give the opportunity to get not only their independence but also ALL Ukraine with them.. And this is obviously a really good deal for Russia.. and this is why
Putin was all smiles in MINSK-2.. after the cease of fire signed and Poroshenko with a long face.
I suspect the Americans will want to change Minsk-2.. and replace it for another thing ..
because it give Ukraine to Russia on a silver plate.. thanks to Germany and France and most Europe backing it..and officially backed too by UN. if minsk implemented in Full ..it will reverse the coup in Ukraine by the americans and restore democracy and Pro Russian parties will have again representation in kiev. Kiev will lose power and Cities will become for autonomous. If minsk not implemented ever.. Ukraine disband.soviet union style. because they cannot continue forever their war without losing support not only in Europe but also in Ukraine. and instead of annexing a tiny zone in Donetsk and lugansk.. Russia will end taking all cities from Odessa to Kharkiv and more..
Last edited by Vann7 on Wed May 20, 2015 4:24 am; edited 1 time in total