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    French Arms Exports and Industry

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    George1

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  George1 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:17 am

    In 2016, the volume of new export arms contracts amounted to France ςασ from 14 to 20 billion euros

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2475686.html


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:53 pm

    Some very interesting thing here.

    2013 shot of T90MS



    Almost exact same Bimodal gunner sight. We all know that the MS is equipped with an evolution of the SOSNA. But here the similarity is striking.
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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:00 am

    Denmark buys self-propelled howitzers CAESAR on the chassis Tatra





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2493523.html


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    George1

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 pm

    In 2016, Botswana entered the top 10 buyers of French arms through the purchase of air defense systems

    As Michel Cabirol writes in the article "Armement: mais qu'a vendu la France au Botswana en 2016?", Published by the French newspaper La Tribune, in 2016, Botswana was among the ten largest buyers of French weapons by signing a contract valued at 304, 2 million euros with the European missile concern MBDA.

    According to information from the sources of the publication, MBDA managed to conclude a contract with Botswana for the supply of portable Mistral air defense systems and VL-MICA short-range air defense systems. This is a defensive weapon. In addition, the country's parliament voted to endorse the deal. Last year, Botswana's army received a helicopter Eurocopter AS332 Super Puma from the presence of the Spanish Air Force, as well as 14 French ATGMs. In total, the volume of supplies of French arms to this country last year amounted to 8.5 million euros (compared with 2.1 million euros in 2015).

    The Armed Forces of Botswana are also interested in the acquisition of the Swedish Saab Gripen fighter (from eight to twelve units) to replace its obsolete Northrop CF-5A/D fighters. Negotiations are ongoing with the Swedish manufacturer, and the purchase of combat aircraft in Russia or China is not excluded. For its part, in 2016, France issued 15 export licenses for the supply of weapons to Botswana for a total of 567 million euros.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2723588.html


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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:29 am



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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:38 am



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    franco

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  franco on Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:31 am


    I'm sure there is more of this story to come out...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:19 pm

    franco wrote:
    I'm sure there is more of this story to come out...

    They will be used for aggressor training. Many were expecting Argentina to get them but the British felt it was too much of a threat.


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:16 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    franco wrote:
    I'm sure there is more of this story to come out...

    They will be used for aggressor training.  Many were expecting Argentina to get them but the British felt it was too much of a threat.  

    I didn't saw anything about British pressure. They were ready to sell them but they couldn't wait for Argentinian response while US wanted to sign and signed. But that stupid for Argentina 63 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $ (juste 12 or so able to fly).
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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:23 pm

    http://www.opex360.com/2017/07/13/la-france-et-lallemagne-vont-developper-un-avion-de-combat-commun/

    France and Germany to build futur fighter togather. Bad news when we see what happened to the A-400M ...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:57 am

    [quote="Isos"][quote="Vladimir79"]
    franco wrote:

    I didn't saw anything about British pressure. They were ready to sell them but they couldn't wait for Argentinian response while US wanted to sign and signed. But that stupid for Argentina 63 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $ (juste 12 or so able to fly).

    The French proposal was $23 million per unit which included upgrades, armaments and a 5 year support package. That is actually a steal for any air force on a budget.


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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:08 am

    Isos wrote:

    France and Germany to build futur fighter togather. Bad news when we see what happened to the A-400M ...

    If the A400M which is being mass produced and inducted into AFs all over the world what does that make the An-70 with $5 billion wasted? Airbus sucked up most of the cost overruns so the Euro governments are not that bad off. PAK FA is underfunded because India will not pay out without full ToT disclosures. To engage in 5th gen fighter programmes costs too much for single budgets.


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:31 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    France and Germany to build futur fighter togather. Bad news when we see what happened to the A-400M ...

    If the A400M which is being mass produced and inducted into AFs all over the world what does that make the An-70 with $5 billion wasted?  Airbus sucked up most of the cost overruns so the Euro governments are not that bad off.  PAK FA is underfunded because India will not pay out without full ToT disclosures.  To engage in 5th gen fighter programmes costs too much for single budgets.  

    India has nothing to do with PAK FA.  This is a factual misconception.  You mean FGFA.  PAK FA was not an option for India other than "if you want it, you buy it on our terms".  Something India didn't initially want to do, but are doing now.

    On Contrary, PAK FA is well funded hence why they have been churning out some decent numbers for testing purposes and have already come near completion.

    This is more like the Eurofighter Typhoon, which ended up as a semi decent but heavily expensive jet.
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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:38 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    franco wrote:

    I didn't saw anything about British pressure. They were ready to sell them but they couldn't wait for Argentinian response while US wanted to sign and signed. But that stupid for Argentina 63 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $ (juste 12 or so able to fly).

    The French proposal was $23 million per unit which included upgrades, armaments and a 5 year support package.  That is actually a steal for any air force on a budget.

    I don't know from where are your sources but I just checked now in French news and it's all 64 F-1 for 25 million $. While another offer was for 80 fighters with just 30 being able to fly the rest was for spare parts.

    My first numbers are wrong but I remember I've seen an article that was saying something like this some months ago. The new number I just gave are from two weeks ago.

    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/la-france-pres-de-vendre-64-mirage-f1-aux-etats-unis-741119.html

    http://www.opex360.com/2017/06/23/les-anciens-mirage-f1-de-larmee-de-lair-pourraient-entamer-une-nouvelle-carriere-aux-etats-unis/

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    Isos

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:48 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    France and Germany to build futur fighter togather. Bad news when we see what happened to the A-400M ...

    If the A400M which is being mass produced and inducted into AFs all over the world what does that make the An-70 with $5 billion wasted?  Airbus sucked up most of the cost overruns so the Euro governments are not that bad off.  PAK FA is underfunded because India will not pay out without full ToT disclosures.  To engage in 5th gen fighter programmes costs too much for single budgets.  

    Chek the news. Germany wants money back and even wants to buy US cargo planes. Not a reliable plane till today.

    The An-70 is the same as the A-400M (actually european copied it) if not better and 3 times cheaper. The fact that many countries are buying A-400M is like why so much are buying stupid F-35 that isn't even finish is because of political pressure, nothing to do with technology.

    Moreover it's more Ukrainian than Russian. Russian investment in it will be again invested in their own planes.

    Funny how Egypt choosed Mig-35 and Rafale instead of just F-16. They knew US would hold them by their balls if they are dependent just on them. Idem for all other Arab countries that are opening their eyes and seing that US hold them exactly this way. And Japan too. Buyers are slowly trying to stop this "political influence" and Russia will have more to sell if they do things correctly.
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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:11 pm

    Isos wrote:

    I don't know from where are your sources but I just checked now in French news and it's all 64 F-1 for 25 million $. While another offer was for 80 fighters with just 30 being able to fly the rest was for spare parts.

    My first numbers are wrong but I remember I've seen an article that was saying something like this some months ago. The new number I just gave are from two weeks ago.

    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/la-france-pres-de-vendre-64-mirage-f1-aux-etats-unis-741119.html

    http://www.opex360.com/2017/06/23/les-anciens-mirage-f1-de-larmee-de-lair-pourraient-entamer-une-nouvelle-carriere-aux-etats-unis/


    You are citing a sale that doesn't include a support package but just the stripped airframes.  France offered Argentina fully equipped F1s with 5 years support.

    The dispute has allowed the resurgence of a proposal from France to supply a squadron of Mirage F-1, at a unit cost of US$ 23 million, but fully equipped and five years of logistic support. Argentina could receive a squadron of Mirage F1; Air Force will have no combat aircraft by 2018


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:29 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Chek the news. Germany wants money back and even wants to buy US cargo planes. Not a reliable plane till today.

    The An-70 is the same as the A-400M (actually european copied it) if not better and 3 times cheaper. The fact that many countries are buying A-400M is like why so much are buying stupid F-35 that isn't even finish is because of political pressure, nothing to do with technology.

    Moreover it's more Ukrainian than Russian. Russian investment in it will be again invested in their own planes.

    Funny how Egypt choosed Mig-35 and Rafale instead of just F-16. They knew US would hold them by their balls if they are dependent just on them. Idem for all other Arab countries that are opening their eyes and seing that US hold them exactly this way. And Japan too. Buyers are slowly trying to stop this "political influence" and Russia will have more to sell if they do things correctly.

    The French have said they have no problem with the use of their A400Ms. Germany has withheld payment and not received contracted maintenance schedules so as usual their aircraft are down, just like their Eurofighters were a few years ago. That is the price of being cheap.

    The An-70 started development during the Soviet and had several payments made from our side. We are out billions without this transporter.

    Egypt is getting MiG-29M2, not MiG-35. They chose France as their premiere defence supplier because they do not have to meet humanitarian concerns using the equipment.


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:53 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    India has nothing to do with PAK FA.  This is a factual misconception.  You mean FGFA.  PAK FA was not an option for India other than "if you want it, you buy it on our terms".  Something India didn't initially want to do, but are doing now.

    On Contrary, PAK FA is well funded hence why they have been churning out some decent numbers for testing purposes and have already come near completion.

    This is more like the Eurofighter Typhoon, which ended up as a semi decent but heavily expensive jet.

    PAK FA has never been well funded which is why we seek India to complete it as a joint project. We do not have the budget to build 5th generation by ourselves. The project is nowhere near to completion. The next gen engines are nowhere on the horizon, the radar is not performing to specs and the gaps of the production skin is not tight enough to be considered of the 5th generation. We require billions of investment in engines, radar and stealth tolerances that are not met.


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:33 pm

    @Vladimir Your link is from last year. That's not the same proposition. The one I linked is from Opex360 which is a french specialized news in military. They mentioned 64 F1 for 25 millions $. So it's two totally different propositions. The fact that they say 64 fighter with just a few able to fly and the rest for spare parts means that they didn't meant to offer big support package.

    http://www.opex360.com/2016/10/24/la-france-propose-des-mirage-f1-largentine-pour-40-millions-deuros/

    Another link from the same source but from 2016 where it is reported that Jean Yves le Drian (former def minister) said they were expecting to sell 12 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $.

    Lot of propositions actually ... I'm lost ^^

    I think they would give them for any price. Those fighters are at the end of their life and by doing this they will sell missiles and then the one who buy them will need to replace them with french fighter because he has french missiles. It's like an investment.


    The French have said they have no problem with the use of their A400Ms. Germany has withheld payment and not received contracted maintenance schedules so as usual their aircraft are down, just like their Eurofighters were a few years ago. That is the price of being cheap.

    The An-70 started development during the Soviet and had several payments made from our side. We are out billions without this transporter.

    Egypt is getting MiG-29M2, not MiG-35. They chose France as their premiere defence supplier because they do not have to meet humanitarian concerns using the equipment.

    They need to sell 300 A400M to win some money on this project. It's 12 tonnes bigger than supposed to be. It crashed in Spain becausse of bad engines.

    I'm not sure all those billions went in this project. There is a BIG probabllity that some officials took lot of money for themselves including russians. Like you said this project started USSR and continued during the Yeltsin years. You know better than me the situation back then.

    Germany still thinks that the A400M is not technicaly as good as it was supposed to be and it has big delays in the program. They want Airbus to corect those mistakes and to give back money because of delays. French have no problem because they want to sell it. They are still using Russian and Antonov cargo for their operations ... and they also ordered 4 C130 Hercules. I don't know if your are following what's happening here in France but the budget of the defence will be very low as Macron needs to save some billions. That will have a big impact on the A-400M.

    Fromo hat I've seen Egypt is getting special Mig-29M2 with lot of things from Mig-35 including all new ECM pods.

    " humanitarian concerns using the equipment." Can you explain what you mean by this ?
    They are buying from every one just to not be depedent from one source. They learned the lessons: They were USSR's puppet then US's. Now they are following what India does. There is a bigger probability that their Fighters meet NATO fighter than Chinese or Russian. So if they have Rafales and F-16 who will give theme spare parts once US will bring them some democracy ?

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:15 am

    Isos wrote:@Vladimir Your link is from last year. That's not the same proposition. The one I linked is from Opex360 which is a french specialized news in military. They mentioned 64 F1 for 25 millions $. So it's two totally different propositions. The fact that they say 64 fighter with just a few able to fly and the rest for spare parts means that they didn't meant to offer big support package.

    http://www.opex360.com/2016/10/24/la-france-propose-des-mirage-f1-largentine-pour-40-millions-deuros/

    Another link from the same source but from 2016 where it is reported that Jean Yves le Drian (former def minister) said they were expecting to sell 12 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $.

    Lot of propositions actually ... I'm lost ^^

    The article of Jean Yves was before the offer of $23 million per unit was made. He hoped they would get 40 million but that was far too high.

    I think they would give them for any price. Those fighters are at the end of their life and by doing this they will sell missiles and then the one who buy them will need to replace them with french fighter because he has french missiles. It's like an investment.

    They would certainly make more business for subsidiaries that way but GB was not having Argies as a customer so France decided to sell to US who at least will fly them and keep a maintenance contract with Dassault.


    They need to sell 300 A400M to win some money on this project. It's 12 tonnes bigger than supposed to be. It crashed in Spain becausse of bad engines.

    300 is an easy target considering how many potential customers are in the market for C-130 replacements. They have a roadmap to full clearance and certification, no project goes without issue as the An-70 suffered.

    I'm not sure all those billions went in this project. There is a BIG probabllity that some officials took lot of money for themselves including russians. Like you said this project started USSR and continued during the Yeltsin years. You know better than me the situation back then.

    I am sure graft occured and as all projects here it will continue. Regardless the money was paid and we have no airlifter. The French can't stop raving and showing off their A400Ms.

    Germany still thinks that the A400M is not technicaly as good as it was supposed to be and it has big delays in the program. They want Airbus to corect those mistakes and to give back money because of delays. French have no problem because they want to sell it. They are still using Russian and Antonov cargo for their operations ... and they also ordered 4 C130 Hercules. I don't know if your are following what's happening here in France but the budget of the defence will be very low as Macron needs to save some billions. That will have a big impact on the A-400M.

    What happened was the German DefMin was flying to Lithuania and she was embarrassed she had to switch flights and now they make a big stink about having to pay money for aircraft she refuses to fly in. France is buying KC-130s because the aerial tanking is not yet certified on A400M. Half of French A400Ms are being refitted with the tactical package Airbus promised them, when they are r5eturned Antonova transport goes bye bye because it costs far more than operating A400M. Macron demands 850mln in savings but has promised to raise defence budgets to 2% of GDP which will be a huge boost to French programmes.

    Fromo hat I've seen Egypt is getting special Mig-29M2 with lot of things from Mig-35 including all new ECM pods.

    If it does not have thrust vector and AESA it is not MiG-35, it is just a modernised MiG-29.

    " humanitarian concerns using the equipment." Can you explain what you mean by this ?
    They are buying from every one just to not be depedent from one source. They learned the lessons: They were USSR's puppet then US's. Now they are following what India does. There is a bigger probability that their Fighters meet NATO fighter than Chinese or Russian. So if they have Rafales and F-16 who will give theme spare parts once US will bring them some democracy ?

    Morsi government is very brutal to Muslim insurgents using torture and what not. If the US does not like his tactics they can cut him off. Buying French and Russian he does not have to worry about US political feelings about dealing with human rights. Looking at the last several years of Egypt purchases it is clear they favour France above all. 2 Mistrals, 1 FREMM, 4 + 2 heavily armed Gowinds, a billion dollar military satellite, 24 Rafale... it is the vast majority of their procurement budget.


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:14 am

    Morsi government is very brutal to Muslim insurgents using torture and what not. If the US does not like his tactics they can cut him off.

    He could just say they are not US citizens and therefore he can torture them all he likes and keep them locked up for as long as he wants.

    The US can hardly complain about illegal detention and torture these days... but I do appreciate what you are trying to say.

    The US preaches from a high moral position even though they are standing bare foot in shit.... they breathe through their mouths and don't look down...

    The Egyptians are buying what is currently available... the MiG-35 is not available to anyone as it is not complete.

    We will see if they get the full 35 upgrades or just settle for the 29M2 model... which is perfectly fine as it is BTW.


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:56 pm

    Buying French and Russian he does not have to worry about US political feelings about dealing with human rights. Looking at the last several years of Egypt purchases it is clear they favour France above all. 2 Mistrals, 1 FREMM, 4 + 2 heavily armed Gowinds, a billion dollar military satellite, 24 Rafale... it is the vast majority of their procurement budget.

    They take what's ready because Morsi needs power to rule. The mistrals were sold because Russia agreed. Now they are selling Ka-52, they took back money while still having plans of them, technical data and the experience gained in building some parts so Russia's position is better on this. Idem for the FREMM which was already build before the contract was signed. Idem for Rafales, they took those that were to be delivered to French air force.

    Gowind is not that a good ship, just French shipyards are faster to build ships than russians and they will build some of them in Egypt. 8 Exocet, 16 MICA and torpedos for 250 million $ each while on a steregouchy (tigr export model) you can have 16 Uran or UKSK with oniks and klub missile, 16 Redut, Paket Nk torpedos for just 150 millions $.

    In satellite tech, french are one of the best so it's normal they chosed them.
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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:43 pm

    Isos wrote:

    They take what's ready because Morsi needs power to rule. The mistrals were sold because Russia agreed. Now they are selling Ka-52, they took back money while still having plans of them, technical data and the experience gained in building some parts so Russia's position is better on this. Idem for the FREMM which was already build before the contract was signed. Idem for Rafales, they took those that were to be delivered to French air force.

    Gowind is not that a good ship, just French shipyards are faster to build ships than russians and they will build some of them in Egypt. 8 Exocet, 16 MICA and torpedos for 250 million $ each while on a steregouchy (tigr export model) you can have 16 Uran or UKSK with oniks and klub missile, 16 Redut, Paket Nk torpedos for just 150 millions $.

    In satellite tech, french are one of the best so it's normal they chosed them.

    There was plenty of air packages that could have been ready but Morsi chose the most expensive. If he went American he could get military aid for free. If he goes Russian he can get more for less. Why did he spend all the money to go French? The choice to ditch America is clear.


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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:35 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    They take what's ready because Morsi needs power to rule. The mistrals were sold because Russia agreed. Now they are selling Ka-52, they took back money while still having plans of them, technical data and the experience gained in building some parts so Russia's position is better on this. Idem for the FREMM which was already build before the contract was signed. Idem for Rafales, they took those that were to be delivered to French air force.

    Gowind is not that a good ship, just French shipyards are faster to build ships than russians and they will build some of them in Egypt. 8 Exocet, 16 MICA and torpedos for 250 million $ each while on a steregouchy (tigr export model) you can have 16 Uran or UKSK with oniks and klub missile, 16 Redut, Paket Nk torpedos for just 150 millions $.

    In satellite tech, french are one of the best so it's normal they chosed them.

    There was plenty of air packages that could have been ready but Morsi chose the most expensive.  If he went American he could get military aid for free.  If he goes Russian he can get more for less.  Why did he spend all the money to go French?  The choice to ditch America is clear.  

    I totally agree with this. It's just that when you said that they "favour french" it sounded for me (maybe I'm wrong) that you mean they want Franch for their new main supplier which is not the reallity. They don't want to depend on anyone so they buy from anyone. They are still getting F-16 if I'm not wrong. But with what's happening in Lybia, Russia is becoming Morsi's biggest ally.

    Do not forget that all these equipement are founded by Saoudi Arabia (and maybe their arab puppets) and they are also buying more and more european and probablly will go for russian stuff too as we saw with Mig/EAU intentions, in order to reduce their dependence on US suplies. So their is a big chance that we saw Pak Fa their too.

    Once the genera (that I forgot the name) in Lybia took power and became the new Kaddafi, Lybia will buy weapons again and Russia had plenty projects with Lybia before the war, Kilo subs frigates, T-90 ...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports and Industry

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:01 pm

    Isos wrote:

    There was plenty of air packages that could have been ready but Morsi chose the most expensive.  If he went American he could get military aid for free.  If he goes Russian he can get more for less.  Why did he spend all the money to go French?  The choice to ditch America is clear.

    I totally agree with this. It's just that when you said that they "favour french" it sounded for me (maybe I'm wrong) that you mean they want Franch for their new main supplier which is not the reallity. They don't want to depend on anyone so they buy from anyone. They are still getting F-16 if I'm not wrong. But with what's happening in Lybia, Russia is becoming Morsi's biggest ally.

    Do not forget that all these equipement are founded by Saoudi Arabia (and maybe their arab puppets) and they are also buying more and more european and probablly will go for russian stuff too as we saw with Mig/EAU intentions, in order to reduce their dependence on US suplies. So their is a big chance that we saw Pak Fa their too.

    Once the genera (that I forgot the name) in Lybia took power and became the new Kaddafi, Lybia will buy weapons again and Russia had plenty projects with Lybia before the war, Kilo subs frigates, T-90 ...

    Based on sales since Morsi came to power, France is the primary arms supplier of Egypt by far.   When I say favour French, I mean this fact.  Egypt received its last F-16 in 2014 and no aid packages made since before the overthrow.  The Saudis are lending the money, but Egypt is still paying for it.  We have given Morsi a corvette... for free.  The MiG deal is only worth $2 billion.  The French deals are worth 10 times this.

    Libya is a mess, no one knows what will happen.


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