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    French Arms Exports

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:11 pm

    Isos wrote:

    I don't know from where are your sources but I just checked now in French news and it's all 64 F-1 for 25 million $. While another offer was for 80 fighters with just 30 being able to fly the rest was for spare parts.

    My first numbers are wrong but I remember I've seen an article that was saying something like this some months ago. The new number I just gave are from two weeks ago.

    http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/la-france-pres-de-vendre-64-mirage-f1-aux-etats-unis-741119.html

    http://www.opex360.com/2017/06/23/les-anciens-mirage-f1-de-larmee-de-lair-pourraient-entamer-une-nouvelle-carriere-aux-etats-unis/


    You are citing a sale that doesn't include a support package but just the stripped airframes.  France offered Argentina fully equipped F1s with 5 years support.

    The dispute has allowed the resurgence of a proposal from France to supply a squadron of Mirage F-1, at a unit cost of US$ 23 million, but fully equipped and five years of logistic support. Argentina could receive a squadron of Mirage F1; Air Force will have no combat aircraft by 2018
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    Isos

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    @Vladimir Your link is from last year. That's not the same proposition.

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:33 pm

    @Vladimir Your link is from last year. That's not the same proposition. The one I linked is from Opex360 which is a french specialized news in military. They mentioned 64 F1 for 25 millions $. So it's two totally different propositions. The fact that they say 64 fighter with just a few able to fly and the rest for spare parts means that they didn't meant to offer big support package.

    http://www.opex360.com/2016/10/24/la-france-propose-des-mirage-f1-largentine-pour-40-millions-deuros/

    Another link from the same source but from 2016 where it is reported that Jean Yves le Drian (former def minister) said they were expecting to sell 12 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $.

    Lot of propositions actually ... I'm lost ^^

    I think they would give them for any price. Those fighters are at the end of their life and by doing this they will sell missiles and then the one who buy them will need to replace them with french fighter because he has french missiles. It's like an investment.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:15 am

    Isos wrote:@Vladimir Your link is from last year. That's not the same proposition. The one I linked is from Opex360 which is a french specialized news in military. They mentioned 64 F1 for 25 millions $. So it's two totally different propositions. The fact that they say 64 fighter with just a few able to fly and the rest for spare parts means that they didn't meant to offer big support package.

    http://www.opex360.com/2016/10/24/la-france-propose-des-mirage-f1-largentine-pour-40-millions-deuros/

    Another link from the same source but from 2016 where it is reported that Jean Yves le Drian (former def minister) said they were expecting to sell 12 Mirage F1 for 40 millions $.

    Lot of propositions actually ... I'm lost ^^

    The article of Jean Yves was before the offer of $23 million per unit was made.  He hoped they would get 40 million but that was far too high.  

    I think they would give them for any price. Those fighters are at the end of their life and by doing this they will sell missiles and then the one who buy them will need to replace them with french fighter because he has french missiles. It's like an investment.

    They would certainly make more business for subsidiaries that way but GB was not having Argies as a customer so France decided to sell to US who at least will fly them and keep a maintenance contract with Dassault.  


    " humanitarian concerns using the equipment." Can you explain what you mean by this ?
    They are buying from every one just to not be depedent from one source. They learned the lessons: They were USSR's puppet then US's. Now they are following what India does. There is a bigger probability that their Fighters meet NATO fighter than Chinese or Russian. So if they have Rafales and F-16 who will give theme spare parts once US will bring them some democracy ?

    Morsi government is very brutal to Muslim insurgents using torture and what not. If the US does not like his tactics they can cut him off.  Buying French and Russian he does not have to worry about US political feelings about dealing with human rights.  Looking at the last several years of Egypt purchases it is clear they favour France above all. 2 Mistrals, 1 FREMM, 4 + 2 heavily armed Gowinds, a billion dollar military satellite, 24 Rafale... it is the vast majority of their procurement budget.
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    Isos

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:56 pm

    Buying French and Russian he does not have to worry about US political feelings about dealing with human rights. Looking at the last several years of Egypt purchases it is clear they favour France above all. 2 Mistrals, 1 FREMM, 4 + 2 heavily armed Gowinds, a billion dollar military satellite, 24 Rafale... it is the vast majority of their procurement budget.

    They take what's ready because Morsi needs power to rule. The mistrals were sold because Russia agreed. Now they are selling Ka-52, they took back money while still having plans of them, technical data and the experience gained in building some parts so Russia's position is better on this. Idem for the FREMM which was already build before the contract was signed. Idem for Rafales, they took those that were to be delivered to French air force.

    Gowind is not that a good ship, just French shipyards are faster to build ships than russians and they will build some of them in Egypt. 8 Exocet, 16 MICA and torpedos for 250 million $ each while on a steregouchy (tigr export model) you can have 16 Uran or UKSK with oniks and klub missile, 16 Redut, Paket Nk torpedos for just 150 millions $.

    In satellite tech, french are one of the best so it's normal they chosed them.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:43 pm

    Isos wrote:

    They take what's ready because Morsi needs power to rule. The mistrals were sold because Russia agreed. Now they are selling Ka-52, they took back money while still having plans of them, technical data and the experience gained in building some parts so Russia's position is better on this. Idem for the FREMM which was already build before the contract was signed. Idem for Rafales, they took those that were to be delivered to French air force.

    Gowind is not that a good ship, just French shipyards are faster to build ships than russians and they will build some of them in Egypt. 8 Exocet, 16 MICA and torpedos for 250 million $ each while on a steregouchy (tigr export model) you can have 16 Uran or UKSK with oniks and klub missile, 16 Redut, Paket Nk torpedos for just 150 millions $.

    In satellite tech, french are one of the best so it's normal they chosed them.

    There was plenty of air packages that could have been ready but Morsi chose the most expensive. If he went American he could get military aid for free. If he goes Russian he can get more for less. Why did he spend all the money to go French? The choice to ditch America is clear.
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    Isos

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:35 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    They take what's ready because Morsi needs power to rule. The mistrals were sold because Russia agreed. Now they are selling Ka-52, they took back money while still having plans of them, technical data and the experience gained in building some parts so Russia's position is better on this. Idem for the FREMM which was already build before the contract was signed. Idem for Rafales, they took those that were to be delivered to French air force.

    Gowind is not that a good ship, just French shipyards are faster to build ships than russians and they will build some of them in Egypt. 8 Exocet, 16 MICA and torpedos for 250 million $ each while on a steregouchy (tigr export model) you can have 16 Uran or UKSK with oniks and klub missile, 16 Redut, Paket Nk torpedos for just 150 millions $.

    In satellite tech, french are one of the best so it's normal they chosed them.

    There was plenty of air packages that could have been ready but Morsi chose the most expensive.  If he went American he could get military aid for free.  If he goes Russian he can get more for less.  Why did he spend all the money to go French?  The choice to ditch America is clear.  

    I totally agree with this. It's just that when you said that they "favour french" it sounded for me (maybe I'm wrong) that you mean they want Franch for their new main supplier which is not the reallity. They don't want to depend on anyone so they buy from anyone. They are still getting F-16 if I'm not wrong. But with what's happening in Lybia, Russia is becoming Morsi's biggest ally.

    Do not forget that all these equipement are founded by Saoudi Arabia (and maybe their arab puppets) and they are also buying more and more european and probablly will go for russian stuff too as we saw with Mig/EAU intentions, in order to reduce their dependence on US suplies. So their is a big chance that we saw Pak Fa their too.

    Once the genera (that I forgot the name) in Lybia took power and became the new Kaddafi, Lybia will buy weapons again and Russia had plenty projects with Lybia before the war, Kilo subs frigates, T-90 ...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:01 pm

    Isos wrote:

    There was plenty of air packages that could have been ready but Morsi chose the most expensive.  If he went American he could get military aid for free.  If he goes Russian he can get more for less.  Why did he spend all the money to go French?  The choice to ditch America is clear.

    I totally agree with this. It's just that when you said that they "favour french" it sounded for me (maybe I'm wrong) that you mean they want Franch for their new main supplier which is not the reallity. They don't want to depend on anyone so they buy from anyone. They are still getting F-16 if I'm not wrong. But with what's happening in Lybia, Russia is becoming Morsi's biggest ally.

    Do not forget that all these equipement are founded by Saoudi Arabia (and maybe their arab puppets) and they are also buying more and more european and probablly will go for russian stuff too as we saw with Mig/EAU intentions, in order to reduce their dependence on US suplies. So their is a big chance that we saw Pak Fa their too.

    Once the genera (that I forgot the name) in Lybia took power and became the new Kaddafi, Lybia will buy weapons again and Russia had plenty projects with Lybia before the war, Kilo subs frigates, T-90 ...

    Based on sales since Morsi came to power, France is the primary arms supplier of Egypt by far.   When I say favour French, I mean this fact.  Egypt received its last F-16 in 2014 and no aid packages made since before the overthrow.  The Saudis are lending the money, but Egypt is still paying for it.  We have given Morsi a corvette... for free.  The MiG deal is only worth $2 billion.  The French deals are worth 10 times this.

    Libya is a mess, no one knows what will happen.
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    George1

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    Re: French Arms Exports

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:20 pm

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    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3237491.html

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    Re: French Arms Exports

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