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    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

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    GarryB
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:28 pm

    Even if the Russian military decided to drop the 100/30 combo from all their new vehicles the BMP-3 and the BMD-3 still carry both weapons.

    The 100/30 evolved from the BMP-1 and BMP-2 and their 73/30 gun combination between the two vehicles that were found to be complimentary rather than one replacing the other as expected.

    Of course the 100mm rifled gun is a huge step forward in performance over the 73mm, but the 30mm hasn't evolved as quickly as the enemy armour it was supposed to deal with has.

    The obvious replacement for the 30mm therefore is the new 57mm gun, but its potential for HE power means it can also practically replace the 100mm too.

    Obviously a 100mm shell will carry more HE than any 57mm shell, so there will be some loss in performance in terms of HE power but as each unit will also be supported by tanks with 125mm guns able to fire HE rounds and also artillery able to offer 120mm and 152mm calibre guns and also rockets of various calibres I don't think that will be a huge problem.

    In terms of the transition from 30mm to 57mm there will be a large step up in effective range and armour penetration performance and effect on target that will reduce the amount of work the organic tank units will have to perform... heavy enemy IFVs will no longer need to be engaged with 100mm missiles or 125mm guns...

    This vehicle could be a new upgraded export model, or a test example.

    Once the 57mm calibre is fully ready for service I think the 100/30 combination will become redundant.

    In fact I think a good solution would be to replace the 100mm with a 120mm gun/mortar system... eliminating a calibre from the inventory and stores without reducing performance and capability... the 120mm gun/mortar can fire rounds to almost double the range and has more powerful HE rounds and also can use 120mm and 122mm guided rounds.

    I would still use the 30mm for a while anyway... but even in air defence I think guided 57mm shells have more promise than just firing thousands of 30mm shells and hoping for a hit.


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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:Even if the Russian military decided to drop the 100/30 combo from all their new vehicles the BMP-3 and the BMD-3 still carry both weapons.

    The 100/30 evolved from the BMP-1 and BMP-2 and their 73/30 gun combination between the two vehicles that were found to be complimentary rather than one replacing the other as expected.

    Of course the 100mm rifled gun is a huge step forward in performance over the 73mm, but the 30mm hasn't evolved as quickly as the enemy armour it was supposed to deal with has.

    The obvious replacement for the 30mm therefore is the new 57mm gun, but its potential for HE power means it can also practically replace the 100mm too.

    Obviously a 100mm shell will carry more HE than any 57mm shell, so there will be some loss in performance in terms of HE power but as each unit will also be supported by tanks with 125mm guns able to fire HE rounds and also artillery able to offer 120mm and 152mm calibre guns and also rockets of various calibres I don't think that will be a huge problem.

    In terms of the transition from 30mm to 57mm there will be a large step up in effective range and armour penetration performance and effect on target that will reduce the amount of work the organic tank units will have to perform... heavy enemy IFVs will no longer need to be engaged with 100mm missiles or 125mm guns...

    This vehicle could be a new upgraded export model, or a test example.

    Once the 57mm calibre is fully ready for service I think the 100/30 combination will become redundant.

    In fact I think a good solution would be to replace the 100mm with a 120mm gun/mortar system... eliminating a calibre from the inventory and stores without reducing performance and capability... the 120mm gun/mortar can fire rounds to almost double the range and has more powerful HE rounds and also can use 120mm and 122mm guided rounds.

    I would still use the 30mm for a while anyway... but even in air defence I think guided 57mm shells have more promise than just firing thousands of 30mm shells and hoping for a hit.

    I still find the 100/30 combo more useful though, you have one 30 for handling enemy personnel and a 100 for enemy armor/fortifications, besides the BMP-3 ain't going anywhere might as well use the ammo, and i wouldn't use an IFV for air defense.

    Anyway the issue i am here for is that i wonder why the T-15 isn't amphibious, because i don't see any pump-jets.



    UPDATE: Nevemind, i just found out the the T-15 and the Kurganets aren't one and the same. pwnd
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:11 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Even if the Russian military decided to drop the 100/30 combo from all their new vehicles the BMP-3 and the BMD-3 still carry both weapons.

    The 100/30 evolved from the BMP-1 and BMP-2 and their 73/30 gun combination between the two vehicles that were found to be complimentary rather than one replacing the other as expected.

    Of course the 100mm rifled gun is a huge step forward in performance over the 73mm, but the 30mm hasn't evolved as quickly as the enemy armour it was supposed to deal with has.

    The obvious replacement for the 30mm therefore is the new 57mm gun, but its potential for HE power means it can also practically replace the 100mm too.

    Obviously a 100mm shell will carry more HE than any 57mm shell, so there will be some loss in performance in terms of HE power but as each unit will also be supported by tanks with 125mm guns able to fire HE rounds and also artillery able to offer 120mm and 152mm calibre guns and also rockets of various calibres I don't think that will be a huge problem.

    In terms of the transition from 30mm to 57mm there will be a large step up in effective range and armour penetration performance and effect on target that will reduce the amount of work the organic tank units will have to perform... heavy enemy IFVs will no longer need to be engaged with 100mm missiles or 125mm guns...

    This vehicle could be a new upgraded export model, or a test example.

    Once the 57mm calibre is fully ready for service I think the 100/30 combination will become redundant.

    In fact I think a good solution would be to replace the 100mm with a 120mm gun/mortar system... eliminating a calibre from the inventory and stores without reducing performance and capability... the 120mm gun/mortar can fire rounds to almost double the range and has more powerful HE rounds and also can use 120mm and 122mm guided rounds.

    I would still use the 30mm for a while anyway... but even in air defence I think guided 57mm shells have more promise than just firing thousands of 30mm shells and hoping for a hit.

    I still find the 100/30 combo more useful though, you have one 30 for handling enemy personnel and a 100 for enemy armor/fortifications, besides the BMP-3 ain't going anywhere might as well use the ammo, and i wouldn't use an IFV for air defense.

    Anyway the issue i am here for is that i wonder why the T-15 isn't amphibious, because i don't see any pump-jets.



    UPDATE: Nevemind, i just found out the the T-15 and the Kurganets aren't one and the same. pwnd

    Mby because T-15 has 40+ tons Very Happy
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:19 pm

    Mby because T-15 has 40+ tons Very Happy

    It's almost like a russian MBT, does it have the same protection ? Can it survive direct NATO 120 mm frontal hit ?

    Kurganets replace BMPs but T-15 is an all new class, how will they organize their tactics now that they have 3 types of vehicle instead of just BMPs and T-90 ??
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  franco on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:43 pm

    IMO the T-15 will replace BMP's in Tank brigades & regiments.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Benya on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:47 pm

    Isos wrote:

    It's almost like a russian MBT, does it have the same protection ? Can it survive direct NATO 120 mm frontal hit ?

    Compared to a regular IFV, it has insane level of protection, and that quite low-angled front plate could protect against pretty much anything from 30 to 100mms.

    Isos wrote:

    Kurganets replace BMPs but T-15 is an all new class, how will they organize their tactics now that they have 3 types of vehicle instead of just BMPs and T-90 ??

    Actually, T-15 will replace BMPs in future Armata platform based tank divisions/brigades, while Kurganets will be organized into motor rifle brigades/divisions that are currently using current BMP-2s or BMP-3s (some brigades in the Eastern Military District are using BMP-1s too).
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:58 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Mby because T-15 has 40+ tons Very Happy

    It's almost like a russian MBT, does it have the same protection ? Can it survive direct NATO 120 mm frontal hit ?

    Kurganets replace BMPs but T-15 is an all new class, how will they organize their tactics now that they have 3 types of vehicle instead of just BMPs and T-90 ??

    Seems current general idea is to form 3 types of divisions, somewhat like motorised cavalary (motorstrelki as of today) that will rely on wheeled platforms like Boomerang/MRAPs), mechanised formed of K-25 and derivates and armored based on T-14 and T-15. That is the idea, how it will look in future it depends on many factors, some of the deciding are moneyz.

    Well it has same general protection as T-14 has, its basically T-14 with different weapon platform and rearanged propulsion.

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    Future Composition of Land Forces

    Post  calripson on Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:39 am

    I assume Armored Divisions and Regiments will field T-15 and T-14. Motorized Rifle will field Kurganets as IFVs and T-14s as tanks (in time). New Tank Armies will have 1 Armored and 1 or 2 Motorized Rifle Divisions.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Benya on Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:57 am

    calripson wrote:I assume Armored Divisions and Regiments will field T-15 and T-14. Motorized Rifle will field Kurganets as IFVs and T-14s as tanks (in time). New Tank Armies will have 1 Armored and 1 or 2 Motorized Rifle Divisions.

    I'm sure that tank armies will have more than one (at least three) armored divisions, plus some armored brigades (it's in their name "Tank Army", so they will focus on armored units/formations the most) Cool .

    EDIT: They will have some motor rifle units too.

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    No They Will Not

    Post  calripson on Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:51 pm

    No they will be formed around 1 armored division, possible with an additional regiment although unlikely, plus 1 or 2 motorized rifle divisions. There are not enough armored divisions, nor enough money, nor trained personnel to have a force structure reminiscent of WWII or the Cold War.

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:15 pm



    I'm trying to understand why the ATOM IFV has a 57 rifled gun instead of a smooth-bore gun -- a gun that could actually make use of sabot rounds.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:18 am

    The 57mm rifled guns can still use sabot rounds... they are just fitted with slip rings.

    The new 57mm guns for IFVs in Russia are rifled because the HE rounds they fire benefit from spin stabilisation, while the HEAT anti armour rounds they will fire will likely be guided so rifling does not matter.

    Because of the size of the round a good APHE round would be interesting for use against lighter vehicles and fortifications.

    Making tank calibre guns smoothbore makes sense because APFSDS rounds don't like being spun and neither do HEAT rounds. The other rounds are guided missiles... which don't like being spun much eitehr, and HE rounds that can be fin stabilised.

    For smaller calibres APFSDS rounds can have slip rings that prevent the rifling from spinning the projectile, but HE rounds benefit from spin stabilisation and guided shells will soon stop spinning when their control fins pop out after being fired.


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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  franco on Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:32 am

    New Arctic variant under testing;

    http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Benya on Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:55 am

    franco wrote:New Arctic variant under testing;

    http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/

    This will be based on the Kurganets, am I right?
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  franco on Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:49 am

    Benya wrote:
    franco wrote:New Arctic variant under testing;

    http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/

    This will be based on the Kurganets, am I right?

    I would suspect the new tracked BTR version.

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:23 am

    GarryB wrote:The 57mm rifled guns can still use sabot rounds... they are just fitted with slip rings.

    The new 57mm guns for IFVs in Russia are rifled because the HE rounds they fire benefit from spin stabilisation, while the HEAT anti armour rounds they will fire will likely be guided so rifling does not matter.

    Because of the size of the round a good APHE round would be interesting for use against lighter vehicles and fortifications.

    Making tank calibre guns smoothbore makes sense because APFSDS rounds don't like being spun and neither do HEAT rounds. The other rounds are guided missiles... which don't like being spun much eitehr, and HE rounds that can be fin stabilised.

    For smaller calibres APFSDS rounds can have slip rings that prevent the rifling from spinning the projectile, but HE rounds benefit from spin stabilisation and guided shells will soon stop spinning when their control fins pop out after being fired.

    Thank you so much, Garry. The 57mm gun will provide a very powerful boost to the offensive capabilities of Russia's AFVs. Why don't the other armies in the West put the Bofors 57mm or Italy's Oto Melara 60mm hypervelocity gun into service on their AFVs?

    I assume that these guns can also use slip-rings.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:06 am

    Well if they are planning on fighting the Russians... and they seem to be, they will need an IFV gun that can penetrate a tank level of protection... which means a tank gun...

    Might be a problem...

    Of course the 57mm gun is intended to deal with 30-38 ton NATO IFVs and also be useful against anything smaller.

    Should be interesting but I suspect the west will simply copy the Russians again... like they did with the BMP and smoothbore main tank guns assault rifles etc etc.


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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:34 am

    GarryB wrote:Well if they are planning on fighting the Russians... and they seem to be, they will need an IFV gun that can penetrate a tank level of protection... which means a tank gun...

    Might be a problem...

    Of course the 57mm gun is intended to deal with 30-38 ton NATO IFVs and also be useful against anything smaller.

    Should be interesting but I suspect the west will simply copy the Russians again... like they did with the BMP and smoothbore main tank guns assault rifles etc etc.

    I was actually surprised that virtually all of the features of the modern tank were invented by the Russians. ERA, Smooth-bore guns, passive and active defence sysems, GLATGM and more.

    I never understood why a great deal of European States have allowed themselves to be deceived and recruited by the Anglo-American establishment to regard and treat Russia as a permanent enemy... as though it were not European. Even WWII documentaries present a tone that seems to bemoan the fact that the Russians prevailed in what was actually a death struggle. It's disgusting.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:15 am

    franco wrote:
    Benya wrote:
    franco wrote:New Arctic variant under testing;

    http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/

    This will be based on the Kurganets, am I right?

    I would suspect the new tracked BTR version.
    Tracked vehicle in... snow?
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Benya on Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:22 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Tracked vehicle in... snow?

    Yeah, with wider tracks it would be possible. You know the DT-30 tracked vehicle? That was designed especially for arctic use.

    franco wrote:
    I would suspect the new tracked BTR version.

    A tracked BTR? You mean the APC variant of the Kurganets armed with a 12,7mm Kord HMG?
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:24 pm

    Sorry, I meant to say, I thought tracked vehicles would be prefered over wheeled ones.
    I can't imagine BTR doing better in snow then lets say MTLB
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  franco on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:02 pm

    Benya wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Tracked vehicle in... snow?

    Yeah, with wider tracks it would be possible. You know the DT-30 tracked vehicle? That was designed especially for arctic use.

    franco wrote:
    I would suspect the new tracked BTR version.

    A tracked BTR? You mean the APC variant of the Kurganets armed with a 12,7mm Kord HMG?

    There are actually two tracked BTR or APC's in development. One based on the Kurganets and the other a development from the BMP-3 frame. Not sure which one for the Arctic other then the article stated it was 20 tonnes which sounds more like the Kurganets version.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  franco on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:05 pm

    Regular wrote:Sorry, I meant to say, I thought tracked vehicles would be prefered over wheeled ones.
    I can't imagine BTR doing better in snow then lets say MTLB

    The MTLB is actually a BTR by definition. There are actually two tracked APC's or BTR's in development presently to replace the MTLB.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:49 am

    AFAIK there will be heavy tracked units, Medium tracked units, medium wheeled units, and light wheeled units.

    the tracked heavy units will have Armata based vehicles and there will be motor rifle and tank units... the same as now, with the only difference being the number of IFVs and BTRs in the motor rifle units being more than the tank units. the tank units having more tanks than IFVs and APCs. Both unit types will have tanks and troop transports.

    The medium tracked units will have Kurganets based vehicles and will be tank and motor rifle units.

    The medium wheeled units will have Boomerang based vehicles and the tank units will have a boomerang vehicle with a 125mm gun as a tank like platform plus IFV/APC vehicles, while the motor rifle medium wheeled units will have 125mm gun carrying "tanks" too.

    The light wheeled units will be high mobility units and the "tank" vehicle might have a 57mm gun and Kornet missiless as a sort of gun platform vehicle but it will be a light highly mobile recon type force with high firepower and communications...

    Existing types like the T-90 and BMP-3 and BMD-4 will continue to operate and continue to get upgrades and will likely continue to be exported.


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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:20 pm

    So 57mm guns will be used for light brigades/divisions in bmpt role and also for ÀA to replace shilka/tungsten in light, medium and heavy divisions?

    Out of curiosity why do apc continue to use 12.7mm ammo and not 23mm ammo...surely they have enough space for it and the autocannon shells support would be appreciated by infantry once they are out

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