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    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

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    GarryB
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:28 pm

    Even if the Russian military decided to drop the 100/30 combo from all their new vehicles the BMP-3 and the BMD-3 still carry both weapons.

    The 100/30 evolved from the BMP-1 and BMP-2 and their 73/30 gun combination between the two vehicles that were found to be complimentary rather than one replacing the other as expected.

    Of course the 100mm rifled gun is a huge step forward in performance over the 73mm, but the 30mm hasn't evolved as quickly as the enemy armour it was supposed to deal with has.

    The obvious replacement for the 30mm therefore is the new 57mm gun, but its potential for HE power means it can also practically replace the 100mm too.

    Obviously a 100mm shell will carry more HE than any 57mm shell, so there will be some loss in performance in terms of HE power but as each unit will also be supported by tanks with 125mm guns able to fire HE rounds and also artillery able to offer 120mm and 152mm calibre guns and also rockets of various calibres I don't think that will be a huge problem.

    In terms of the transition from 30mm to 57mm there will be a large step up in effective range and armour penetration performance and effect on target that will reduce the amount of work the organic tank units will have to perform... heavy enemy IFVs will no longer need to be engaged with 100mm missiles or 125mm guns...

    This vehicle could be a new upgraded export model, or a test example.

    Once the 57mm calibre is fully ready for service I think the 100/30 combination will become redundant.

    In fact I think a good solution would be to replace the 100mm with a 120mm gun/mortar system... eliminating a calibre from the inventory and stores without reducing performance and capability... the 120mm gun/mortar can fire rounds to almost double the range and has more powerful HE rounds and also can use 120mm and 122mm guided rounds.

    I would still use the 30mm for a while anyway... but even in air defence I think guided 57mm shells have more promise than just firing thousands of 30mm shells and hoping for a hit.


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    AlfaT8
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:Even if the Russian military decided to drop the 100/30 combo from all their new vehicles the BMP-3 and the BMD-3 still carry both weapons.

    The 100/30 evolved from the BMP-1 and BMP-2 and their 73/30 gun combination between the two vehicles that were found to be complimentary rather than one replacing the other as expected.

    Of course the 100mm rifled gun is a huge step forward in performance over the 73mm, but the 30mm hasn't evolved as quickly as the enemy armour it was supposed to deal with has.

    The obvious replacement for the 30mm therefore is the new 57mm gun, but its potential for HE power means it can also practically replace the 100mm too.

    Obviously a 100mm shell will carry more HE than any 57mm shell, so there will be some loss in performance in terms of HE power but as each unit will also be supported by tanks with 125mm guns able to fire HE rounds and also artillery able to offer 120mm and 152mm calibre guns and also rockets of various calibres I don't think that will be a huge problem.

    In terms of the transition from 30mm to 57mm there will be a large step up in effective range and armour penetration performance and effect on target that will reduce the amount of work the organic tank units will have to perform... heavy enemy IFVs will no longer need to be engaged with 100mm missiles or 125mm guns...

    This vehicle could be a new upgraded export model, or a test example.

    Once the 57mm calibre is fully ready for service I think the 100/30 combination will become redundant.

    In fact I think a good solution would be to replace the 100mm with a 120mm gun/mortar system... eliminating a calibre from the inventory and stores without reducing performance and capability... the 120mm gun/mortar can fire rounds to almost double the range and has more powerful HE rounds and also can use 120mm and 122mm guided rounds.

    I would still use the 30mm for a while anyway... but even in air defence I think guided 57mm shells have more promise than just firing thousands of 30mm shells and hoping for a hit.

    I still find the 100/30 combo more useful though, you have one 30 for handling enemy personnel and a 100 for enemy armor/fortifications, besides the BMP-3 ain't going anywhere might as well use the ammo, and i wouldn't use an IFV for air defense.

    Anyway the issue i am here for is that i wonder why the T-15 isn't amphibious, because i don't see any pump-jets.



    UPDATE: Nevemind, i just found out the the T-15 and the Kurganets aren't one and the same. pwnd

    Militarov
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:11 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Even if the Russian military decided to drop the 100/30 combo from all their new vehicles the BMP-3 and the BMD-3 still carry both weapons.

    The 100/30 evolved from the BMP-1 and BMP-2 and their 73/30 gun combination between the two vehicles that were found to be complimentary rather than one replacing the other as expected.

    Of course the 100mm rifled gun is a huge step forward in performance over the 73mm, but the 30mm hasn't evolved as quickly as the enemy armour it was supposed to deal with has.

    The obvious replacement for the 30mm therefore is the new 57mm gun, but its potential for HE power means it can also practically replace the 100mm too.

    Obviously a 100mm shell will carry more HE than any 57mm shell, so there will be some loss in performance in terms of HE power but as each unit will also be supported by tanks with 125mm guns able to fire HE rounds and also artillery able to offer 120mm and 152mm calibre guns and also rockets of various calibres I don't think that will be a huge problem.

    In terms of the transition from 30mm to 57mm there will be a large step up in effective range and armour penetration performance and effect on target that will reduce the amount of work the organic tank units will have to perform... heavy enemy IFVs will no longer need to be engaged with 100mm missiles or 125mm guns...

    This vehicle could be a new upgraded export model, or a test example.

    Once the 57mm calibre is fully ready for service I think the 100/30 combination will become redundant.

    In fact I think a good solution would be to replace the 100mm with a 120mm gun/mortar system... eliminating a calibre from the inventory and stores without reducing performance and capability... the 120mm gun/mortar can fire rounds to almost double the range and has more powerful HE rounds and also can use 120mm and 122mm guided rounds.

    I would still use the 30mm for a while anyway... but even in air defence I think guided 57mm shells have more promise than just firing thousands of 30mm shells and hoping for a hit.

    I still find the 100/30 combo more useful though, you have one 30 for handling enemy personnel and a 100 for enemy armor/fortifications, besides the BMP-3 ain't going anywhere might as well use the ammo, and i wouldn't use an IFV for air defense.

    Anyway the issue i am here for is that i wonder why the T-15 isn't amphibious, because i don't see any pump-jets.



    UPDATE: Nevemind, i just found out the the T-15 and the Kurganets aren't one and the same. pwnd

    Mby because T-15 has 40+ tons Very Happy

    Isos
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:19 pm

    Mby because T-15 has 40+ tons Very Happy

    It's almost like a russian MBT, does it have the same protection ? Can it survive direct NATO 120 mm frontal hit ?

    Kurganets replace BMPs but T-15 is an all new class, how will they organize their tactics now that they have 3 types of vehicle instead of just BMPs and T-90 ??

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  franco on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:43 pm

    IMO the T-15 will replace BMP's in Tank brigades & regiments.

    Benya
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Benya on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:47 pm

    Isos wrote:

    It's almost like a russian MBT, does it have the same protection ? Can it survive direct NATO 120 mm frontal hit ?

    Compared to a regular IFV, it has insane level of protection, and that quite low-angled front plate could protect against pretty much anything from 30 to 100mms.

    Isos wrote:

    Kurganets replace BMPs but T-15 is an all new class, how will they organize their tactics now that they have 3 types of vehicle instead of just BMPs and T-90 ??

    Actually, T-15 will replace BMPs in future Armata platform based tank divisions/brigades, while Kurganets will be organized into motor rifle brigades/divisions that are currently using current BMP-2s or BMP-3s (some brigades in the Eastern Military District are using BMP-1s too).

    Militarov
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:58 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Mby because T-15 has 40+ tons Very Happy

    It's almost like a russian MBT, does it have the same protection ? Can it survive direct NATO 120 mm frontal hit ?

    Kurganets replace BMPs but T-15 is an all new class, how will they organize their tactics now that they have 3 types of vehicle instead of just BMPs and T-90 ??

    Seems current general idea is to form 3 types of divisions, somewhat like motorised cavalary (motorstrelki as of today) that will rely on wheeled platforms like Boomerang/MRAPs), mechanised formed of K-25 and derivates and armored based on T-14 and T-15. That is the idea, how it will look in future it depends on many factors, some of the deciding are moneyz.

    Well it has same general protection as T-14 has, its basically T-14 with different weapon platform and rearanged propulsion.

    calripson
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    Future Composition of Land Forces

    Post  calripson on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:39 am

    I assume Armored Divisions and Regiments will field T-15 and T-14. Motorized Rifle will field Kurganets as IFVs and T-14s as tanks (in time). New Tank Armies will have 1 Armored and 1 or 2 Motorized Rifle Divisions.

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Benya on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:57 am

    calripson wrote:I assume Armored Divisions and Regiments will field T-15 and T-14. Motorized Rifle will field Kurganets as IFVs and T-14s as tanks (in time). New Tank Armies will have 1 Armored and 1 or 2 Motorized Rifle Divisions.

    I'm sure that tank armies will have more than one (at least three) armored divisions, plus some armored brigades (it's in their name "Tank Army", so they will focus on armored units/formations the most) Cool .

    EDIT: They will have some motor rifle units too.

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    No They Will Not

    Post  calripson on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:51 pm

    No they will be formed around 1 armored division, possible with an additional regiment although unlikely, plus 1 or 2 motorized rifle divisions. There are not enough armored divisions, nor enough money, nor trained personnel to have a force structure reminiscent of WWII or the Cold War.

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